Spell casters, path of war, and Megadungeons: How do I deal with 12+ encounters daily

[Knight Magenta]

Our group is using path of war and we are really loving it. However, now the pendulum has swung the other way and some casters feel lame. Our DM likes to run mega-dungeons coupled with harsh time-limits. For example, our last few sessions have us racing against the clock to wipe out a necromancer before a dragon sends his army to invade our town. (There is also a portal to a different plane in the near-by mines. We "sealed" by piling dirt into it. That's not even on the list yet.)

Martial and path of war characters work quite well in this format. They start their encounters fresh and can do lots of things. The stalker's Ki is a more valuable resource than normal, but the ki-powers are so good that it works out. I am playing a mounted hunter focused on lance charges, and I am finding my spell-casting kind of lame. I can't quite keep up with the Warlord's damage output because I am a gnome and I'm eating a strength and size penalty. But, I also can't really use my spells in combat, since we seem to have an average of 12 encounters in "boss" dungeons. I've mostly gotten around this by only knowing buffs and restoration-type spells, but even then I don't get to use them often. Does anyone have experience with this kind of campaign and/or have any house rules to help the casters out?

The main problem is that "god" wizards are mostly fine. If you can drop one spell per encounter then you can mostly stretch them out. But blaster-type casters and 6/9th casters that rely on spells to improve their combat power are kind of shafted by our campaign design. At the same time, we don't want to just double everyone's spell slots since we sometimes have short days too.

Some context on our party and house rules:
- We are pretty high-op. Our DM regularly adds +2 to encounter CRs, but the enemies are not overly optimized. It leads to slightly longer combats and less-squishy mooks.
- We use a feat point (https://dnineteen.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/feat-points/) system that works out to a few bonus feats for more niche builds.
-We are level 5.
- combat expertise has been erased from all pre-reqs
-We use automatic bonus progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression) except you can buy weapon/armor special abilities without paying for your "pluses" at 2x the price. So a Flaming sword would be 4k; a flaming, frost sword would be 16k, etc. So At level 4, you could have a +1 keen sword for 4k.
- There have also been slight buffs to non-cat animal companions.
- Broken Blade does not give +2 damage to discipline weapons.
- Last time we went to town, we bought 3 wands of cure light wounds :D

Party:
Gnome Hunter (me). Rides a heron and is super mobile. I benefit a lot from the feat rules as I already have Wheeling Charge which lets me charge around corners. Forces the DM to make 3-dimentional encounters.
Elf Stalker [path of war] Almost as mobile as me. Focused on Scarlet Throne and Acrobatics. Can routinely jump 10ft vertically, and reach 20ft platforms.
Cat-folk Warlord [path of war] Primary DPR. Focused on Broken Blade. (we joke that its broken in more ways than one.)
Kobold Investigator. Focused on aid another. Can add +4 AC against 5 attacks in 15 ft and +5 to hit to 2 ally attacks during his turn. Has Absurd AC (25+)

[Kelb_Panthera]

For Arcanists at least, it seems to me that a few rings of wizardry would go a -long- way and for all casters there's the obvious reserve feats.

EDIT:

The reserve feats may need to be backported for a PF game but I'm pretty sure rings of wizardry weren't changed, right?

[Knight Magenta]

Rings of wizardry don't really help much. They are very expensive and automatic bonus progression halves wealth to account for free stat boosting items/weapons, so its hard to afford the ring. It also only boosts low-level spell slots.

The reserve feats are a good ideal. I'll take a look.

[thecrimsondawn]

The issue you are running into is the fact that the system itself is designed so that a party needs to rest after 3-4 encounters at max. Any class with a finite amount of power will do poorly in a situation where they need to fight four times as many battles as the system intended for them to be able to deal with. Casters are also not really meant to be your damage dealers either. They deal with problems that shut parties down, such as invisibility, transportation, scrying, debuffs, and all other sorts of things. I can offer some tips to help, but they will not help much if your party is already made.

So first off, if you want a combat caster - look into Kineticist. They are kinda like a warlock in the sense that they have no real spell limit per day, but are limited by their burn class feature. They are ranked really poorly as far as a class goes, but when you mix in some path of war, their damage potential skyrockets. They are very flexible as far as imagination and damage goes, and they get some nice tricks here and there that allow them to do some fun ( yet quite limited) things to add flavor to the class.

If you are hard set on wizard/sorc and the like tho, consider becoming more of a gish. Elemental Flux is a great path for casters and it keys off of INT. Most of the strikes say "any attack" instead of a melee or ranged attack, allowing you to make more use of them. If BAB is your worry, Scarlet Throne is another good option. Its keyed off of wisdom, but has some golden boosts, counters, and strikes that causes your BAB to just not be an issue. Hitting touch ac, ignoring armor AC, using sense motive in place of an attack, these are just a few of the things you can pull off with ST.

If you dont want to go that path, you still have more options. Are you a crafter? If you have time to rest at all between adventures, even just a few hours before sleep, you can craft powerful items for your party and take their gold in payment, This gold you can then use in all sorts of ways, from an endless supply of one shot items, to more staves then you know what to do with.

Your real issue is that many of these options you would plan for before even rolling your guy up and adapting into them later on often just will not work. If your DM will allow it, talk to him into allowing you to buy endless use items. There is a page with the costs of crafting everything he can look at to give you a price for whatever you are looking at, then you can spam fireball or whatever all day long :3

[Mehangel]

Have you thought about using Spheres of Power (http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr/discuss&page=last?Spheres-of-Power#tabs)? While there are those that think that it is a step-down for casters, it does provide far more At-Will abilities which allow for several more encounters per day. A wiki for Spheres of Power may be found here (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Rings of wizardry don't really help much. They are very expensive and automatic bonus progression halves wealth to account for free stat boosting items/weapons, so its hard to afford the ring. It also only boosts low-level spell slots.

They are hella expensive, I'll give you that. You can go a long ways on economical uses of lower level slots though, especially if you have something like versatile spellcaster or a partial progression to begin with.


The reserve feats are a good ideal. I'll take a look.

This is the exact thing they were made for after all.

[digiman619]

Have you thought about using Spheres of Power (http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr/discuss&page=last?Spheres-of-Power#tabs)? While there are those that think that it is a step-down for casters, it does provide far more At-Will abilities which allow for several more encounters per day. A wiki for Spheres of Power may be found here (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/).

Seconding this one, as I am currently GMing a SoP/PoW game. Not at that high a level yet, but I the combo works really well.

[Fizban]

Seems like what you need to do is rig up a partial casting version of Spheres of Power for this Hunter class so you're playing on the same field. Except that might remove the spells you wanted to use. I you can get a Circlet of Mages from the 'ol 3.5 MiC and then upgrade the charge capacity it might be cost efficient enough (5,000gp for a three 1sts, a 1st+2nd, or a 3rd). A Least Rod of Extend Spell would also help your buffs stretch further. It's pretty hard to suggest anything without knowing what you're actually casting though.

[icefractal]

Also, some types of spells are more slot-efficient than others. Playing a Summoner, for instance, I usually didn't even go through all my SLA Summons, much less all my spells. And while Psions are not longevity-focused, Shapers seem to have decent lasting power.

Of course, I could see where playing a summoner might be too similar to playing a martial type if you want a break from that.

But speaking of psionics, what about a Wilder? In the PF version, they can surge to use powers for free (at reduced strength). Pretty much like a reserve feat right there. And once you get Psychic Reformation (no XP cost in Pathfinder), their low number of powers known becomes less of an issue.

[Knight Magenta]

The issue you are running into is the fact that the system itself is designed so that a party needs to rest after 3-4 encounters at max. Any class with a finite amount of power will do poorly in a situation where they need to fight four times as many battles as the system intended for them to be able to deal with. Casters are also not really meant to be your damage dealers either. They deal with problems that shut parties down, such as invisibility, transportation, scrying, debuffs, and all other sorts of things. I can offer some tips to help, but they will not help much if your party is already made.


I don't really want to obsolete a bunch of classes just because we've started using PoW. We've already obsoleted a number of core classes with initiators. Unfortunately the kineticist does not really lend itself to having its shtick transplanted into another class.

A hunter with warlock-style invocations would be cool though.


Have you thought about using Spheres of Power (http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr/discuss&page=last?Spheres-of-Power#tabs)? While there are those that think that it is a step-down for casters, it does provide far more At-Will abilities which allow for several more encounters per day. A wiki for Spheres of Power may be found here (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/).

Thanks for that wiki link! I've had the SoP book for a while, but its hard to get my DM to learn a new system when he has to pay for me to use it -- and read a PDF. I've skimmed SoP before and I think that the action economy was pretty poor without spending spell points. I don't really want to concentrate when casting buffs. That stops be from lancing things :)

I'll take another look and see what I can see.


Seems like what you need to do is rig up a partial casting version of Spheres of Power for this Hunter class so you're playing on the same field. Except that might remove the spells you wanted to use. I you can get a Circlet of Mages from the 'ol 3.5 MiC and then upgrade the charge capacity it might be cost efficient enough (5,000gp for a three 1sts, a 1st+2nd, or a 3rd). A Least Rod of Extend Spell would also help your buffs stretch further. It's pretty hard to suggest anything without knowing what you're actually casting though.

The extend rod is a good idea.

My wisdom is pretty low so I can't really cast save-based spells. Currently I have situational buffs/solutions, like resist energy, bull's strength and lesser restoration. What I want is to be able to cast a relevant combat buff every 2-3 fights and have the tools to help some out of combat problems. I've been really happy with lesser restoration; and resist energy has let us fight inside a burning building pretty freely once.

Some battle-field control would be cool, but it would have to be at least as relevant as hitting someone with my lance.

[Fizban]

Resist Energy still seems to be 1st level for Rangers in Pathfinder, so that means it's 1st for you too, and the rest of those spells are 2nd level. The Circlet of Mages with extra charges should work good for those if you can get one. A Rod of Bodily Restoration is also pretty cheap and does a good amount of ability score damage per day. Just don't ask me for actual Pathfinder items.

[AmberVael]

Thanks for that wiki link! I've had the SoP book for a while, but its hard to get my DM to learn a new system when he has to pay for me to use it -- and read a PDF. I've skimmed SoP before and I think that the action economy was pretty poor without spending spell points. I don't really want to concentrate when casting buffs. That stops be from lancing things :)

I'll take another look and see what I can see.

There's definitely some stuff that is less optimal to focus on if you want action/spell point efficiency across a lot of encounters, but there are also options that could work for you.

Telekinesis does require concentration, but it requires minimal spell points and works out to be much like full attacking.
The Destroyer's handbook released the Gather Energy talent, which makes destruction a pretty efficient long term combat option.
You might also consider spheres that have "lingering" talents, namely the ones that let an effect last two rounds without concentration. Light would let you put down buffs and debuffs for a few rounds without spell points or concentration that way, for example.

Also, there are definitely concentration effects that are worth your time on their own. Some of the buffs are less efficient this way (though still useful), but a lot of the debuffs are worth concentrating on.

[Gnaeus]

If you have PoW, you probably have Akashic Magic. Viziers are quite credible all day caster types. Much better than the previously mentioned Kineticist.

[stack]

For a hunter, which was converted in expanded options and should be on the linked wiki, nature should work well. With a feat and a talent you can get earth and plantlife (I believe, don't have the PDFs open, might be feats for the others but I have only had a chance to use the one that combines those two) to linger for 4 rounds without concentration, allowing you to do other things or to layer them as needed.

[Mehangel]

Thanks for that wiki link! I've had the SoP book for a while, but its hard to get my DM to learn a new system when he has to pay for me to use it -- and read a PDF. I've skimmed SoP before and I think that the action economy was pretty poor without spending spell points. I don't really want to concentrate when casting buffs. That stops be from lancing things :)

I'll take another look and see what I can see.

In addition to what AmberVael suggested, I would suggest that you take a look at Casting Traditions. With the proper setup (i.e. any 2 General Drawbacks + Easy Focus), you can concentrate on sphere abilities as a move action. With the inclusion of Quicken spell (which you may use at level 1, provided you have the spell points), you can increase your action economy even further.

[Knight Magenta]

I've looked at Spheres of Power. It looks like spheres are mostly balanced around spending spell points being about the equivalent of a caster's higher-level spell slots. But pound-for-pound sphere effects are probably a little weaker than an equal level spell slot in exchange for more flexibility in how they are used, so this does not quite solve my longevity problem.

I'm not really good at building spheres characters, I'm sure with experience I could get more out of the system :p Picking spells is much easier and they have the advantage of variety. I don't need to spend all of my resource to be able to do a cool thing with vancian casting. Here are some thoughts on sphere caster builds.

At level 5 I would have 5 talents, so I was looking at something like this to match what I can do now:

- Life (for restoration)
- Enhancement
Lingering enhancements
energy weapon
Animate objects

This would let me enter combat with an energy weapon dealing 1d6 + 1 damage (+2 on a charge!) for the first 2 rounds. I could use lesser restoration when needed. I could also spend a spell-point 4 times per day to animate an armored coat for some sweet 2d10+10 free hp which is on average a +60% boost. Still, this does not really seem exciting. If I just wanted more stats I could have played a cavalier and had more BaB and challenge. I want to do cool magicky things.

I looked at nature and weather a bit, but the action economy there is pretty poor, and the cool effects guzzle spell points and usually allow saves, which would be poor due to my mediocre wisdom.

The Death sphere has some cool powers. Creating 4 3-hour minions per day is strong, but I don't want to play a necromancer. Where is the long-lasting animate-object talent?

Summoning is sort of cool, but I already have an animal companion and don't want to go that route.

Also: SoP plays poorly with Automatic Bonus progression. The enhancement and protection spheres grant non-stacking enhancement and deflection bonuses that scale slower than those granted by ABP. This makes them kind of sad.

I tried to find some battle-field control that would be like Wind Wall or Spike Growth, but I didn't see anything like that.

[Mehangel]

At level 5 I would have 5 talents

Dont forget to take a look at Sphere-specific drawbacks (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc50) (which grant +1 talent in that sphere per drawback taken):

Life sphere drawbacks
- Limited Restoration: Choose either Restore or Cure, you may not use the selected Life sphere ability.
- Regenerate: You may only target yourself with Life sphere abilities.

Enhancement sphere drawbacks (There are actually more, but these are the ones I thought might interest you the most).
- Bodily Enhancements: You cannot enhance your equipment or objects with your enhancement only creatures.
- Consciousness Linked: If you fall asleep, are stunned, or fall unconscious, all your enhancements end.
- Marking Enhancements: A removable mark is placed on any creature or object you enhance. If the mark is removed, the enhancement prematurely ends.
- Obvious Enhancements: All creatures within 30 ft immediately know that a creature or object is enhanced.
- Personal Magics: You may only target yourself and your own equipment with enhancements.

If you take multiple drawbacks you gain multiple bonus talents. So if you take Consiousness Linked, Marking Enhancements, Obvious Enhancements, and Personal Magics, you would gain 4 additional talents from the Enhancement sphere, which could be used to gain more talents from the Enhancement sphere or to buy off the those talents you already picked (which would mean that you could expand further into other spheres).


I looked at nature and weather a bit, but the action economy there is pretty poor, and the cool effects guzzle spell points and usually allow saves, which would be poor due to my mediocre wisdom.

As noted before, take the Lingering Nature talent and have your effects last for a significant portion of the encounter without spending any spell points.


Where is the long-lasting animate-object talent?

Bestow Life is an advanced talent (and requires CL 10)


I tried to find some battle-field control that would be like Wind Wall or Spike Growth, but I didn't see anything like that.

Battlefield Control Effects by Sphere

Dark sphere
Darkness: Disorienting Darkness (sort of like confusion for movement), Snagging Darkness (Entangles)

Destruction sphere
Energy Wall + Air Blast (Pushes enemies back)
Explosive Orb + Crystal Blast (Entangles)

Nature sphere
Earth: Dust Storm, Spikestones, Tremor
Fire: Smokescreen
Plantlife: Entangle, Thorns
Water: Fog, Freeze

Protection sphere
Barrier: Greater Barrier + Distant Protection (Its like force cage)

Weather sphere
Wind: Strong Wind (-2 penalty to ranged attacks); Severe Wind (-4 penalty to ranged attacks); Windstorm (Ranged attacks are impossible).
Precipitation: Mist (20% miss chance); Fog (all sight obscured beyond 5 feet)