Succubus/Incubus fluff Question!

[Xar Zarath]

Hey playgrounders, so I have a fluff question for all of you.

In 3.5e a succubus/incubus (note I am just using the interchangeable gender option for 3.5e since it has weird incubi) has Cha 26

In PF succubus has Cha 27 and Incubus (they have a separate/equal creature for PF) has Cha 21.

Fluff wise, this means a high Cha is expressed through amazing looks, poise and generally how well they carry themselves in everyday life. What my fluff question is this...

Say all 3 lust demons get a bonus to their Cha, note that this increase is permanent like inherent so maybe a few Wish spells get thrown in. Compared to the average lust demon, how would they differ from the rest of their kindred fluff wise?

(I mean would a incubus with Cha 26 be more handsome than a Cha 21 incubus and also note that as expressed sin of lust in physical form, they are pretty drop dead gorgeous)

[Eldariel]

Hey playgrounders, so I have a fluff question for all of you.

In 3.5e a succubus/incubus (note I am just using the interchangeable gender option for 3.5e since it has weird incubi) has Cha 26

In PF succubus has Cha 27 and Incubus (they have a separate/equal creature for PF) has Cha 21.

Fluff wise, this means a high Cha is expressed through amazing looks, poise and generally how well they carry themselves in everyday life. What my fluff question is this...

Say all 3 lust demons get a bonus to their Cha, note that this increase is permanent like inherent so maybe a few Wish spells get thrown in. Compared to the average lust demon, how would they differ from the rest of their kindred fluff wise?

(I mean would a incubus with Cha 26 be more handsome than a Cha 21 incubus and also note that as expressed sin of lust in physical form, they are pretty drop dead gorgeous)

Through their persuasiveness, presence, habitus. The more Charismatic they are, the more magnetic and attractive they feel and the more draw their presence has. The even-more-Charismatic ones would likely have some power over their fellow lust demons (Charisma is a very important component of leadership in particular) and, depending on the size of the bonus, would have an even greater effect on particularly mundane mortals (though all of them have plenty to start with - kind of important for their craft). Given how utterly dominant they are over mundane humans in that sense, I'm not sure most could tell the difference outside a side-by-side comparison though - "otherworldly, glorious, imposing" might be adjectives I'd assume (in addition to the obvious traits associated with lust demons such as "alluring", "sensual", "voluptuous").

Note that Charisma as looks is a bit problematic; Mind Flayers are awfully Charismatic but they are unlikely to register as all that gorgeous to a human. Hell, their mind might well lack the concept of "beauty" entirely - it seems completely unnecessary to them after all. Likewise, Polymorphing doesn't alter your Charisma so no matter how grotesque a form you change into, your Charisma remains the same. I'd say a Charismatic person tends to be perceived as more attractive than average for their specimen but that this isn't the primary function of the stat.

[Segev]

Ultimately, it comes down to "even more persuasive/seductive/desirable."

Language has a limit to its superlatives, and we tend to lavish them on the succubus/incubus already for the areas of their...expertise.

For a particular distinction, perhaps the "normal" version is almost intimidatingly gorgeous, makes you uncomfortable even as you want him, makes you do the teenaged blush-and-gulp thing, hoping to impress or trying to convince yourself to resist the temptations that are just...so...desirable.

And one way to represent the higher-cha version is that, despite being every bit as attractive...she puts you at ease. She's NOT trying to seduce you, and you even realize that she is quite a nice woman. Sure, you're...attracted to her. But she is used to that and actually helps you get your mind off that enough that you can relax.

And you never even quite realize when you, yourself, become bold enough to make an overture. But you already know she'll take it well, and that she's comfortable with you.

Resisting never crosses your mind, because by the time you're at a point you would have thought you were crossing a line, the line's so far gone and you're so comfortable being on this side of it with her that you don't care.



Now, obviously, that's only if that's how she wants to play it. The "manipulate the uncomfortable aroused mark" trick is sometimes exactly how the seductress wants to play it. But it's one way to play up the difference - have the one who's better at it make the mark never uncomfortable with it at all, so he's not acting "in spite of himself," but has already had "himself" gotten out of the way.

[Âmesang]

This reminds me of trying to imagine a nymph's "blinding beauty" as being so intense that even reality itself is too shy to gaze upon her, so light waves are bending and distorting all around her form making it physically painful to look… almost like staring straight into the sun, where there's nothing but a bright light enveloping a beautiful form and everything around her just goes dark in comparison.

[Segev]

This reminds me of trying to imagine a nymph's "blinding beauty" as being so intense that even reality itself is too shy to gaze upon her, so light waves are bending and distorting all around her form making it physically painful to look… almost like staring straight into the sun, where there's nothing but a bright light enveloping a beautiful form and everything around her just goes dark in comparison.

Well, it's a fortitude save, so it's apparently a literal physical effect. Which is kind-of weird for "beauty" to be. So I suppose your explanation makes a certain amount of sense.

(I was going to suggest it was a sort of hysterical blindness, brought upon by your brain so fixating on that one image of perfect beauty that your vision center literally stopped processing anything else. But that would be more a Will save.)

[Psyren]

Charisma is not appearance. There are things with very high Cha that would send villagers screaming for the hills, and there are things with low Cha that are at least conventionally attractive. Charisma is persuasiveness and assertiveness.

[Segev]

Charisma is not appearance. There are things with very high Cha that would send villagers screaming for the hills, and there are things with low Cha that are at least conventionally attractive. Charisma is persuasiveness and assertiveness.

Charisma can be, in part attractiveness. It needn't be. But a being with only moderate persuasive skills but a highly attractive form could be higher Charisma because his beauty makes people more inclined to heed his otherwise-average requests and suggestions.

But it is, in truth, just pure ability to persuade and awe. Whether that ability comes from beauty, wit, wisdom, or force of personality is irrelevant to what the score it.

[ShurikVch]

Allow me to give you "doylist" answer there:
in 3.5 there was a completely separate Incubus (not just a "Succubish man");
it was printed in Dragon #353, "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Malcanthet, Queen of the Succubi", and had Cha 20;
since Dragon is Paizo, it isn't surprising they borrowed from their one old stuff when made the PF version

And about the impact of appearance on Charisma...
Yes and no
Yes: creature affected by the Blood Blister spell gets penalty on Cha checks and skills
No: Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) have Cha 42

[Milo v3]

Charisma is not appearance. There are things with very high Cha that would send villagers screaming for the hills, and there are things with low Cha that are at least conventionally attractive. Charisma is persuasiveness and assertiveness.
Nah, it is appearance as well. I just.... shouldn't be....

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

[kellbyb]

Allow me to give you "doylist" answer there:
in 3.5 there was a completely separate Incubus (not just a "Succubish man");
it was printed in Dragon #353, "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Malcanthet, Queen of the Succubi", and had Cha 20;
since Dragon is Paizo, it isn't surprising they borrowed from their one old stuff when made the PF version

And about the impact of appearance on Charisma...
Yes and no
Yes: creature affected by the Blood Blister spell gets penalty on Cha checks and skills
No: Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) have Cha 42

Trash talking an atropal's ravishing good looks? That's bold.

[Crake]

When it comes to creatures who's physical attractiveness is literally unmatchable thanks to their ability to change into whatever humanoid form they please, charisma really comes down to more of a "Force of personality" kind of thing. As others have said, more imposing, awe-inspiring, dominant, manipulative, but overally: better at getting their way. This extends beyond just the social skills like diplomacy, bluff and intimidate (and UMD :P) but also into the realm of their magic. Their energy drain is harder to shake off, their spells are harder to resist, when charmed mortals are more likely to do their bidding (via the opposed cha check to make someone do something they wouldn't normally do), and should they come into competition with their fellow kindred over a mortal, they are more likely to have the mortal follow their commands (via the opposed cha check when two enchantments come into conflict).

Basically, when it comes to creatures like succubi, more cha simply means they're better at everything than their other kin. It's also worth noting that the listed stats are for baseline 'commoner' succubi. Any that have gained class levels would instead have the elite array, most likely bumping their cha up to 30 at least, no need for wish spells or the like there.

[Xar Zarath]

Ah ok I see. However the full "package" of such a lust demon who is not only physically attractive and incredible presence (ie incubus/succubus with char levels and such) would be a forced to be reckoned with (played correctly) how would in terms of fluff, a char like say a high level wizard could withstand such awe and beauty? I mean wizards aren't the most social of creatures after all.

[ryu]

Ah ok I see. However the full "package" of such a lust demon who is not only physically attractive and incredible presence (ie incubus/succubus with char levels and such) would be a forced to be reckoned with (played correctly) how would in terms of fluff, a char like say a high level wizard could withstand such awe and beauty? I mean wizards aren't the most social of creatures after all.

I mean if he wants some of that he can make some of that for himself with higher CHA and a permanent bond of absolute inability to disobey him. He is also likely immune to mind effecting.

[Crake]

I mean if he wants some of that he can make some of that for himself with higher CHA and a permanent bond of absolute inability to disobey him. He is also likely immune to mind effecting.

Sure, if he's 5-10 levels above the succubus's CR. We're talking about a succubus with class levels here, presumably on par with the wizard in question and, assuming she's also a spellcaster, she would have access to all the same tricks as the wizard, plus several hundreds/thousands of years of experience, allies and treasure to back her up. Mind blank? Dispel. Type based immunity? Polymorph any object. She would also definitely have defenses against being planar bound, so that would be a no-go, not to mention the easiest solution to being bound is to simply have a familiar hidden away in a belt of many pouches. Oh you bound me? Well that's just too bad, my not-bound familiar just hopped out and scratched out the calling diagram and now I'm free.

Assuming a more traditional level of play, remember that a wizard binding a succubus like that DOES have the upper hand, and any attempts to social him into submission should come with hefty, though not necessarily insurmountable penalties. The wizard also doesn't forget basic facts just because she's managed to influence him, he would have to be stupid to free her for example, even if she has managed to make him friendly, or even helpful, because he would still know that, despite how much he may like her, and how pleasant her company is, he knows that, given the chance, she would make him her little toy. Knowing that, threats and intimidation would immediately drop off the table, and in would come manipulation and directing the conversation. The wizard may just find himself talking about something completely different than what he initially intended, giving the succubus information he most certainly would not want in the hands of a demon. That would quickly begin to put him at more and more of a disadvantage, until the point where he may realise that the only way he can guarentee either his own safety, or the safety of those close to him once this demon gets free is to appease her. With this, the succubus could easily get an incredible bargain, or possibly even manage to get things without even having to perform any services at all if she's good enough. That is, if the wizard didn't instead try to kill her first, though doing so may just end up disturbing that calling diagram :smalleek:

[ryu]

Sure, if he's 5-10 levels above the succubus's CR. We're talking about a succubus with class levels here, presumably on par with the wizard in question and, assuming she's also a spellcaster, she would have access to all the same tricks as the wizard, plus several hundreds/thousands of years of experience, allies and treasure to back her up. Mind blank? Dispel. Type based immunity? Polymorph any object. She would also definitely have defenses against being planar bound, so that would be a no-go, not to mention the easiest solution to being bound is to simply have a familiar hidden away in a belt of many pouches. Oh you bound me? Well that's just too bad, my not-bound familiar just hopped out and scratched out the calling diagram and now I'm free.

Assuming a more traditional level of play, remember that a wizard binding a succubus like that DOES have the upper hand, and any attempts to social him into submission should come with hefty, though not necessarily insurmountable penalties. The wizard also doesn't forget basic facts just because she's managed to influence him, he would have to be stupid to free her for example, even if she has managed to make him friendly, or even helpful, because he would still know that, despite how much he may like her, and how pleasant her company is, he knows that, given the chance, she would make him her little toy. Knowing that, threats and intimidation would immediately drop off the table, and in would come manipulation and directing the conversation. The wizard may just find himself talking about something completely different than what he initially intended, giving the succubus information he most certainly would not want in the hands of a demon. That would quickly begin to put him at more and more of a disadvantage, until the point where he may realise that the only way he can guarentee either his own safety, or the safety of those close to him once this demon gets free is to appease her. With this, the succubus could easily get an incredible bargain, or possibly even manage to get things without even having to perform any services at all if she's good enough. That is, if the wizard didn't instead try to kill her first, though doing so may just end up disturbing that calling diagram :smalleek:

If you wanna talk about high OP levels of play do you seriously think the wizard is ever going to be behind in the arms race. We have native access to craft contingent spell, the celerity line, more safety getaway spells than you can shake a stick at, the ability to pump caster level and by extension spell DCs, the native advantage of just being able to recast whatever you dispel to be back at square one, layers of different types of immunity, and I don't even need to go beyond fifth level spells for any of what I've mentioned. What was the CR of the demon again? Assuming it's facing a fight which is a 50:50 chance by the measure of CR it the wizard gets even more toys.

[Segev]

Wizards resist with their Will saves. Which usually will be sufficient against an approximately equal-CR succubus. The danger to the wizard is in her skills. Sense Motive is not a typical skill for a wizard, so she could manipulate him purely through skill checks.

But a wizard knows what he's dealing with, and will gird himself against her blandishments with both magic and the simple mundane iron will (and possible disinterest in such mundane pleasures as "sex"). "I know what you are and that your promises are not worth their price, assuming they aren't flat-out lies."

Plus, yes, if he's planar binding her, she's not able to act against him if he's smart enough to order her not to. And wizards have a bit of a reputation for intelligence.

[ryu]

Wizards resist with their Will saves. Which usually will be sufficient against an approximately equal-CR succubus. The danger to the wizard is in her skills. Sense Motive is not a typical skill for a wizard, so she could manipulate him purely through skill checks.

But a wizard knows what he's dealing with, and will gird himself against her blandishments with both magic and the simple mundane iron will (and possible disinterest in such mundane pleasures as "sex"). "I know what you are and that your promises are not worth their price, assuming they aren't flat-out lies."

Plus, yes, if he's planar binding her, she's not able to act against him if he's smart enough to order her not to. And wizards have a bit of a reputation for intelligence.

I prefer to win such things not just by saying that such things are unlikely, but actually have zero probability given someone competent casting the spells.

[Segev]

I prefer to win such things not just by saying that such things are unlikely, but actually have zero probability given someone competent casting the spells.

"The DM assumes that I didn't make a stupid mistake in the orders I give her" is less secure a bet than "I give the order." But yes, if the character is competent, he shouldn't have troubles when he's binding outsiders.

[ryu]

"The DM assumes that I didn't make a stupid mistake in the orders I give her" is less secure a bet than "I give the order." But yes, if the character is competent, he shouldn't have troubles when he's binding outsiders.

No I mean in the sense of: Here's a list of over twelve immunities, contingent spells, and similar that say this simply can't happen. No not even then.

[Crake]

Since wizard (or sorcerer for that matter) is considered a non-associated class for a succubus (since by definition in the monster manual, spellcasting classes are only associated for races with innate spellcasting of that type, which succubi do not have), 5 levels in wizard, then 5 levels in two different prestige classes of your choice gets her 15 levels of wizard casting for CR14, so she would easily be on par, if not better than you at spellcasting, she has better ability scores, and access to everything you have access to. In practically every way you are fighting a wizard who is on par with you, if not better. The only time you have a chance is earlier not later, when you have access to better spellcasting than she does, but that's before you have access to a whole plethora of immunities. Also immunity to binding is really not difficult to achieve, just have a contingent dimensional anchor on you for whenever you get bound, and get the naturalized denizen feat to become immune to being gated. Honestly, if you're playing at that level of optimization you'd be foolish to think the DM is not playing the same game.

But, as I said, that level of optimization doesn't at all seem to be what the OP is looking at. From the sounds of it the succubus is probably not a wizard on par with the caster, but the caster is also not layered with defenses and contingencies.

[ryu]

Since wizard (or sorcerer for that matter) is considered a non-associated class for a succubus (since by definition in the monster manual, spellcasting classes are only associated for races with innate spellcasting of that type, which succubi do not have), 5 levels in wizard, then 5 levels in two different prestige classes of your choice gets her 15 levels of wizard casting for CR14, so she would easily be on par, if not better than you at spellcasting, she has better ability scores, and access to everything you have access to. In practically every way you are fighting a wizard who is on par with you, if not better. The only time you have a chance is earlier not later, when you have access to better spellcasting than she does, but that's before you have access to a whole plethora of immunities. Also immunity to binding is really not difficult to achieve, just have a contingent dimensional anchor on you for whenever you get bound, and get the naturalized denizen feat to become immune to being gated. Honestly, if you're playing at that level of optimization you'd be foolish to think the DM is not playing the same game.

But, as I said, that level of optimization doesn't at all seem to be what the OP is looking at. From the sounds of it the succubus is probably not a wizard on par with the caster, but the caster is also not layered with defenses and contingencies.

Ah but see that's the thing. You're at an inherent disadvantage for being a succubus instead of a proper elf using elven generalist, domain wizard, and versatile spellcaster to gain access to ninths far earlier than you're supposed to. Now you might say that's overpowered and not likely to fly at a table. I would posit the same for ''non-associated'' class advancement in the strongest class in the game. Or if you want something even less ambiguous I could show you dragonblooded kobolds that count as dragons can thus take epic feats before level 20. Do note I said dragon. The rule doesn't care if the dragon is ''true'' or not so no need to reanimate that dead horse to beat.

[Crake]

Ah but see that's the thing. You're at an inherent disadvantage for being a succubus instead of a proper elf using elven generalist, domain wizard, and versatile spellcaster to gain access to ninths far earlier than you're supposed to. Now you might say that's overpowered and not likely to fly at a table. I would posit the same for ''non-associated'' class advancement in the strongest class in the game. Or if you want something even less ambiguous I could show you dragonblooded kobolds that count as dragons can thus take epic feats before level 20. Do note I said dragon. The rule doesn't care if the dragon is ''true'' or not so no need to reanimate that dead horse to beat.

Pretty sure that combo was ruled as being illegitimate, the elven generalist domain wizard I mean, since versatile spellcaster doesn't actually give you a spell slot to gain a domain slot etc etc? Putting an NPC on par with a player in terms of magical casting capabilities in a game where available spell level is the primary determining factor of who wins or loses hardly seems unreasonable anyway. As for taking epic feats, yeah, sure no problem, good luck qualifying for anything worthwhile :smallconfused: My point is: if you can safely assume you're immune to everything, it's not unreasonable to expect enemies to have the same capabilities. But again, not the point of the thread.

[ryu]

Pretty sure that combo was ruled as being illegitimate, the elven generalist domain wizard I mean, since versatile spellcaster doesn't actually give you a spell slot to gain a domain slot etc etc? Putting an NPC on par with a player in terms of magical casting capabilities in a game where available spell level is the primary determining factor of who wins or loses hardly seems unreasonable anyway. As for taking epic feats, yeah, sure no problem, good luck qualifying for anything worthwhile :smallconfused: My point is: if you can safely assume you're immune to everything, it's not unreasonable to expect enemies to have the same capabilities. But again, not the point of the thread.

It's not even everything. The specific mode of attack was a mind effecting compulsion. EVERYONE past like level six has easy access to immunity to that in item form if nothing else. Not even spell trigger or UMD required item either. Always on buff. This is why it's not a valid form of attack.

[Crake]

It's not even everything. The specific mode of attack was a mind effecting compulsion. EVERYONE past like level six has easy access to immunity to that in item form if nothing else. Not even spell trigger or UMD required item either. Always on buff. This is why it's not a valid form of attack.

I'm not particularly interested in continuing this train of thought since it's not really the point of this thread, and despite my attempts to get back on track it seems engaging in this debate before trying to return to the topic at hand just exacerbates it. If you'd like to continue this discussion, we can take it to another thread, but really it boils down to "maybe, maybe not". Maybe you spend 1/3 of your wbl on an item that arguably works against all charms and compulsions, or maybe you dont. Most people don't really look into that kind of stuff until a fair bit later down the track honestly, and I wouldn't be so sure about it's comprehensive protection at all tables, it's definitely not the "mind affecting immunity" you mentioned initially.