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clockwork warrior
2007-07-09, 10:59 AM
i really like monster races, i find them to be very interesting

so im disappointed that in the "races of -----" books that there is a lack of mention for some of the most common monsters in dnd.

i was sure happy that gnolls got a place in races of the wild, it was very interesting to read, but i also want to know more about things like orcs, goblins, and troll (races of destiny hinted on some orc stuff, but not as much as i would have liked) so is there any books out there that touch these races at all?

Morty
2007-07-09, 11:06 AM
Well, I made a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43027) about that once, and it seems that number of books about orcs, goblins and other "monstrous" races is near zero.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-07-09, 12:03 PM
I think Races of Dragon does have somethings about kobolds and lizzardmen and a book called "lords of madness" is about mindflayers, other then that your MM are the only info on monster races I know of.

Attilargh
2007-07-09, 12:06 PM
a book called "lords of madness" is about mindflayers
And other abominations, including Aboleths and Beholders.

There is also the 3.0 book Draconomicon and the (to my understanding) 3.5 book Libris Mortis (aka the Book of Bad Latin). There are also the two Fiendish Codexes.

SoulCatcher78
2007-07-09, 01:01 PM
Forgotten Realms supplement The Serpent Kingdoms (iirc) has most of your snake/lizard based races but nothing for the Goblinoids. I'd never thought about it before but you're right, the goblinoid/orc family seems to be getting the "well it's just a generic monster" shaft.

There's lots of things to find through google (some folks have lots of spare time apparently) if you want to homebrew something though...

http://www.tuckborough.net/orcs.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc
http://www.farlandworld.com/orcs.html

Khantalas
2007-07-09, 01:08 PM
There is also the 3.0 book Draconomicon and the (to my understanding) 3.5 book Libris Mortis (aka the Book of Bad Latin). There are also the two Fiendish Codexes.

But... Draconomicon is 3.5. It must be, it uses the Damage Reduction of 3.5. Even the transition phase (or 3.25, as I've seen it called) used the 3.0 Damage Reduction system.

Attilargh
2007-07-09, 01:12 PM
But... Draconomicon is 3.5. It must be, it uses the Damage Reduction of 3.5. Even the transition phase (or 3.25, as I've seen it called) used the 3.0 Damage Reduction system.
But, but, but Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draconomicon) lists it as a 3.0 book, and I'm certain I've seen people call it that!

Also, I didn't find the line "This product uses updated material from the v.3.5 revision." from the page with all the writers and stuff. (Is it called the title page?)

MrNexx
2007-07-09, 01:42 PM
But, but, but Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draconomicon) lists it as a 3.0 book, and I'm certain I've seen people call it that!

Also, I didn't find the line "This product uses updated material from the v.3.5 revision." from the page with all the writers and stuff. (Is it called the title page?)

Yes, the English term is title page. However, it has a publication date of November 2003, and I was looking at 3.5 books in August of the same year; it's 3.5, and just didn't bother to advertise itself as such.

Ad res, I've considered submitting something along the lines of a "Races of" book to WotC for the Goblinoids and Orcs... though I doubt my vision would match closely with theirs.

SoulCatcher78
2007-07-09, 02:06 PM
I think from the standpoint of running/participating in a monsters campaign, it would be a great sourcebook. Unfortunately they are likely to kick it back since Savage Species (?) already exists.

A series of web articles along the lines of Elmisters Ecologies would be a great idea though. For those of us who would like a bit more light shed on tribe make up/politics of such creatures it cold be invaluable. For everyone else, it at least gives them a better tool to describe that orc camp or goblin warren.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 02:11 PM
See, Savage Species doesn't have any information whatsoever on orcs or goblinoids. Seriously. Goblinoids are only mentioned three times in Savage Species, and the first result remarks on how they would be so much more exciting if they had the Half-Dragon template.

Morty
2007-07-09, 03:37 PM
I was actually preety puzzled when I heard that there is no mention of Orcs & c.o in Savage Species. I mean, orcs and goblinoids are described as "savage humanoids" in PHB and all other books.


though I doubt my vision would match closely with theirs

WoTC's vision seems to be "low-CR opponents players can kill easily and feel good about it".

Attilargh
2007-07-09, 03:51 PM
WoTC's vision seems to be "low-CR opponents players can kill easily and feel good about it".
"In shades of yellow and green."

As an aside, I've found it pretty hard to find a decent picture of a hobgoblin. The few I've found have always pictured it with sideburns, silly ears and lots of armour, which is really boring.

SydneyLosstarot
2007-07-09, 04:00 PM
Well, goblins and orcs are described in Warcraft d20 Core book, though these are quite unorthodox =)

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-10, 12:38 AM
Races of Savagery?

Hobgoblins would be great, if they didn't look like wannabe pornstars. And didn't have the stupid Level Adjustment. :smalleek:

ChrisMcDee
2007-07-10, 06:15 AM
Isn't this pretty much what Savage Species covers?

I've not checked it out myself but I thought that was the "Monsterous PCs" book.

Attilargh
2007-07-10, 06:30 AM
Apparently not:

See, Savage Species doesn't have any information whatsoever on orcs or goblinoids. Seriously. Goblinoids are only mentioned three times in Savage Species, and the first result remarks on how they would be so much more exciting if they had the Half-Dragon template.

For the record, the Half-Dragon template is just boring. Fiendish, however...

Fhaolan
2007-07-10, 08:16 AM
Nah, Savage Species only realy deals with creatures with LA & Racial HD. Minotaurs, trolls, centaurs, etc.

Leon
2007-07-10, 08:30 AM
But, but, but Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draconomicon) lists it as a 3.0 book, and I'm certain I've seen people call it that!

Also, I didn't find the line "This product uses updated material from the v.3.5 revision." from the page with all the writers and stuff. (Is it called the title page?)

Its 3.5, it contains everything upto date and none that sit at odds with anything (like some parts of SS or A&Eg - despite the excellence of both)

Ethdred
2007-07-10, 08:48 AM
WotC may not give these guys much love, but other games publishers do. Check out Mongoose Publishing who do a series called Slayer's Guides. Despite the name, they are actually a good look at the culture of the relevant race - under the flimsy excuse that knowing your enemy makes them easier to kill, so that they can attract the munchkins with money. I don't play non-humans, but I find these books a really good resource for NPCs as well as intelligent enemies.

Matthew
2007-07-11, 04:29 PM
Kenzer & Company also put out: Fury in the Wastelands - The Orcs of Tellene (http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_28_44&products_id=171).

ndragonsbane
2007-07-11, 04:43 PM
I don't own this product so I can't verify anything, but I believe Races of Faerun has SOME fluff info on goblinoids and orcs (most of which is probably not Realms specific).

Attilargh
2007-07-11, 04:49 PM
I don't have it any more, but I recall it indeed had a few pages' worth. Not bad stuff, either.

Morty
2007-07-12, 04:02 AM
Yes, Races of Faerun has some fluff about orcs and goblinoids. Orcs are described in the "main races" section, and there's much about them there. Goblinoids are described as one of the "minor races" and the stuff there is quite typical, really.

Dhavaer
2007-07-12, 04:10 AM
"In shades of yellow and green."

As an aside, I've found it pretty hard to find a decent picture of a hobgoblin. The few I've found have always pictured it with sideburns, silly ears and lots of armour, which is really boring.

Red Hand of Doom has lots of hobgoblin pictures. The males don't appear to have cheeks, and the only female pictured is, of course, attractive. I think WotChan filled their 'less than attractive female' quota with *shudder* the night hag.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-12, 05:39 AM
Red Hand of Doom has lots of hobgoblin pictures. The males don't appear to have cheeks, and the only female pictured is, of course, attractive. I think WotChan filled their 'less than attractive female' quota with *shudder* the night hag.

The Hag Countess in BoVD was pretty nasty too. Less pretty, more nasty. Disgusting shock, that one, especially after the hotness that is Fierna.:smallyuk:

Person_Man
2007-07-12, 08:52 AM
The Core 3.5 rules were published in July of 2003.

Draconomicon was published in Nov 2003.

So its reasonable to conclude that Draconomicon is part of 3.5 rules.

However, it was published so early in the 3.5 rule set that much of it reads like 3.0 material. And much of it is very, very poorly balanced. For example, Dragon Wild Shape, Improved Rapidstrike, Dragon Cohort, Frightful Presence, Awaken Spell Resistance, etc.

So I know several DMs who essentially treat it like 3.0 material - you can use it, but only if its not crazy.

bosssmiley
2007-07-12, 01:36 PM
Well, I made a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43027) about that once, and it seems that number of books about orcs, goblins and other "monstrous" races is near zero.

True dat. The savage races get a couple of pages each in "Races of Eberron", but it's hardly the 2nd Ed "Book of Humanoids" or "GAZ10, The Orcs of Thar", is it? But then again, how much *could* you write about the savage races without the brainless drooling fanboi contingent shouting: "ZOMG! WtoC riped off BLizzard!!!" (much as they did over "Warhammer Online" :smallannoyed: )?

How much could you say about the humanoids that hasn't already been said in various yawn-ish "Ecologies" articles? I mean they seem to boil down to:

Orcs: generic tribals with tusks.
Goblins: wolf-riding Mongols with fangs.
Hobgoblins: over-militarised Prussians with tusks.
Orogs: not Orcs at all. No, really. See, our name is different and everything...
Gnolls: lazy hyena-men.
Flinds: lazy hyena-men + nunchuks.
Bugbears: big ninjas with fur and morningstars.

Oh, and the puny, cowardly Kobolds you all loved to despise, they're now dragons... :smallconfused:

Morty
2007-07-12, 01:44 PM
But then again, how much *could* you write about the savage races without the brainless drooling fanboi contingent shouting: "ZOMG! WtoC riped off BLizzard!!!" (much as they did over "Warhammer Online" )?

Yeah. They sound even dumber if you realize -and I assume you do- that if someone ripped off something it was Blizzard.