Low level bard woes (not enough spells)

[malachi]

I have a low level bard (somewhere between 3-4 right now, not sure where, since I missed a session). When he is out of spells, he feels spectacularly useless (vicious mockery targets either make the save or still hit even with disadvantage. Every time.) I have medium armor and shield (from vhuman medium armor masteryproficiency), and 14 Dex, so rapier / ranged weapons aren't particularly useful to me (and my AC drops a lot if I drop my shield).
My DM seems to like long combats with multiple waves of enemies, so no single spell I cast is going to cripple a majority of any given fight (and then I spend a lot of turns attempting to mock my foes, but they mostly just don't care).

My initial thought was to take 2 levels of warlock for EB w/ charisma mod to dmg, telepathy, and at-will disguise self, then jump back to bard forever, but I'm concerned that I might later discover that I miss the 2 levels of spellcasting progression more than I'm thinking now.

Would you take a 2 level warlock dip? If so, when and, most importantly, would you do it for the concerns I have, or will I quickly gain the spells/day to make up for bad at-will capabilities?

Thanks!

[orange74]

What about Magic Initiate to pick up some attacking or utility cantrips?

[BiPolar]

I have a low level bard (somewhere between 3-4 right now, not sure where, since I missed a session). When he is out of spells, he feels spectacularly useless (vicious mockery targets either make the save or still hit even with disadvantage. Every time.) I have medium armor and shield (from vhuman medium armor mastery), and 14 Dex, so rapier / ranged weapons aren't particularly useful to me (and my AC drops a lot if I drop my shield).
My DM seems to like long combats with multiple waves of enemies, so no single spell I cast is going to cripple a majority of any given fight (and then I spend a lot of turns attempting to mock my foes, but they mostly just don't care).

My initial thought was to take 2 levels of warlock for EB w/ charisma mod to dmg, telepathy, and at-will disguise self, then jump back to bard forever, but I'm concerned that I might later discover that I miss the 2 levels of spellcasting progression more than I'm thinking now.

Would you take a 2 level warlock dip? If so, when and, most importantly, would you do it for the concerns I have, or will I quickly gain the spells/day to make up for bad at-will capabilities?

Thanks!

What spells have you chosen? As a lore bard myself, I'm not a fan of the warlock dip (which I've done.) Delaying your bard progression is HUGE with both access to magical secrets and higher level spells being pushed back if you do so.

[DivisibleByZero]

I love what the 4e mentality has done to this game....
"I'm at -1 to attack and damage from what an optimized AL character would have, so weapons aren't useful to me."

Dude, just use your rapier more for the time being. You're fine.

[DireSickFish]

I love what the 4e mentality has done to this game....
"I'm at -1 to attack and damage from what an optimized AL character would have, so weapons aren't useful to me."

Dude, just use your rapier more for the time being. You're fine.

I'd use a crossbow. They get crossbow proficiency right?

[DivisibleByZero]

I'd use a crossbow. They get crossbow proficiency right?

That works, too.
14 in your attack stat at level 3 is fine.
Heck, 14 in your attack stat at level 20 still works thanks to bounded accuracy.

[Specter]

And that's why it's nice to play a Tiefling/Aasimar/Drow bard.

[Herobizkit]

Perception is key. [Strong opinion follows.] If you wanted to be a spellcaster and only a spellcaster, you should have rolled a Wizard or Sorcerer.

Bards are versatile, as in, they can do everything pretty well. You are more than capable in melee than you think you are. A Rapier with 14 Dex is decent enough to wail on foes (or use a ranged weapon, as you get +Dex to damage with it).

I can sympathize with your lack of "crowd control". Warlock isn't going to help much in that direction - it's a great pairing with bard (d10+Cha scaling ranged attack is pretty baller; once you get 5 total levels you get a second EB ray) but you still won't be addressing you party's issue. You need abilities that can target multiple foes.

Spells that affect multiple targets that you can get NOW include Faerie Fire (give everyone advantage on affected targets), Sleep and Thunderwave. Tasha's Hideous Laughter straight up incapacitates one foe so long as your players save him for last.

I'm assuming you went Valorbard in order to get Medium Armor Mastery at 4th; Bards do not begin play with Medium Armor proficiency so you shouldn't have been able to take that feat at 1st. Good news! You'd likely get to re-choose your feat.

If you want the blasty spells, go Dragon Sorcerer over Warlock. You'll get an 'always on' armor effect, making your base AC 13+Dex with no armor.

If you then take Valorbard, you'd get shield proficiency and access to martial weapons. The 'design intent' is that the Valorbard is more of a melee combatant that boosts the combat efficiency of his team, whereas the Lore Bard becomes more of a caster by 'borrowing' spells from any class at certain levels.

You just need to get over your d4 Vicious Mockery spam. You're not a wizard/sorcerer. ^_^

[Temperjoke]

I'm not going to criticize for wanting to do the optimal amount of damage, but dipping is probably going to hurt you more in the long run. What spells do you currently possess? Bard's aren't known for their magic dps, at least, not early on. They're more of a support class, with a mix of healing, utility, and dps. What are your other stats? I can't really speak for your luck regarding Vicious Mockery, that's how the dice roll sometimes. What are the other player classes? Are you feeling weak in comparison to how they're performing? Sometimes, the problem is actually your perception, and it's not actually a problem.

[Thrudd]

5e ACs aren't that high. Just attack with weapons. Spell casters aren't supposed to cast spells every single turn of every single combat. And bards are a versatile class with lots of proficiencies. Im sure you can think of ways to fight the enemy or help your allies without casting spells.

[Ovarwa]

Don't do it!

Third level spells at level 5 is kind of not to be missed. Fireball at level 6 (for lore) or second attack (for valor) is also potentially useful.

Sacrificing these benefits to dish out second rate DPR... not worth it.

As mentioned earlier, VHuman cannot take MAM at level 1; Magic Initiate might be better if you want to deal damage. Various useful cantrips exist for this.

Even so, bards optimized for damage can be competent, but this is not optimizing toward bardic awesomeness. Damage is something to do between bouts of awesome, and bards have a repertoire of different kinds of awesome. Damage isn't in there.

Anyway,

Ken

[DireSickFish]

Also if you're doing multiple waves of enemies in a row look at spells that stay useful for a long fight. Bless on the party will give you and your allies a 1d4 to hit which would be very useful for the whole fight. That way you don't need to cast a 1st lvl spell every round. Just at the begining of the fight then plink away with the crossbow!

[Drackolus]

Lore bard 13 here. Definitely going to agree that a dip, while great, does suck when you're looking up at that next magical secrets. Having two 1st level slots isn't so bad when you use them on dissonant whispers, but it's still not as good as that one high-level slot. Also, at your level, 1d4+disadvantage far outclasses 1d10. heck, even 2d4+disadvantage is better than 2d10 until around level 8 when pretty much everything has multiattack. Agonizing Blast makes it better, but that vicious mockery is great.
That said, at level 12 I took spell sniper (I'd already taken m. initiate:bard and ritual caster:wizard, since I rolled an 18 and was a half elf for 20 cha from the start) and it's working great. Being able to get around cover is really nice too. And EB's range becomes so far you don't have to think about it anymore.

[MrStabby]

Bards, especially lore bards can really feel the lack of spells, especially at low levels.

Vicious mockery is actually pretty good - you might be doing more than it feels like from the raw damage.

If you are a valor bard then at level 6 you get 2 attacks, and using the attack action becomes a great way to preserve your spells. If you are a lore bard you get magical secrets. Magical secrets can get you some longer lasting effects that can give you the feel of a spell action each turn - call lightening, conjure animals, spirit guardians or whatever.

For now, you are probably more awesome than you realise and will only get better.

[JAL_1138]

I'm assuming you're a Lore bard since you got Medium armor through a feat instead of standard Valor proficiency. If you went Valor, it's a wasted feat. :/

Bards are always a little weak-seeming and feel spell-starved through early levels; that's normal (for most caster classes, but it's a smidge worse for bards). It will shift. They'll still maybe feel a little spell-starved, but Bardic Inspiration becomes short-rest, Song of Rest adds free healing on top of hit dice spent during short rests, and thanks to the additional spells from Magical Secrets at 6th (if Lore), the effectiveness of the class skyrockets.

If you get a chance to rebuild, you could switch out that Medium Armor feat for something else like Magic Initiate; if you don't get a chance to respec, don't worry about it. I'd recommend against taking a second feat at 4th though; you'll need the ASIs until you cap Charisma.

In the meantime, remember you're a supporting caster and skillmonkey, not a damage machine (that's Valor with an archery build after level 10th level or starting with a Paladin 2 dip if going melee; Lore can do respectable at-will damage after 6th level with Magical Secrets to steal a good cantrip like Eldritch Blast or Greenflame Blade at 6th, although you should only take one cantrip and take a leveled spell for the other IMO).

Look to your Cutting Words feature to force failed saves on enemies, guarantee saving throw successes for allies, and hang out in the back ranks away from the melee to avoid getting hit when possible. You can also buy a hand crossbow for some ranged damage a little higher than Vicious Mockery; even Lore gets that weapon proficiency. If possible, use AoEs rather than single-target spells. Thunderwave, Faerie Fire, and Shatter are likely more useful at this level than Dissonant Whispers and other single-target spells, if you're dealing with multiple groups of multiple enemies. You won't end the encounter, but you'll soften multiple enemies up considerably. One or two spells per wave, then crossbow until the next wave.

You're also not a terrible healer; you could focus on healing instead of damage. Healing Word is less healing than Cure Wounds, but is a ranged bonus action; you could shoot once with a hand xbow for 1d6+mod, and then heal someone 1d4+mod (for a 1st level slot) in the same turn. Not much damage or healing taken in isolation, but not bad for both in the same turn.

Enemies really shouldn't be hitting every time with Disadvantage; that's just odd, frankly. At least a few should miss sometimes.

If the online Elemental Evil supplement is available, there's a close-range bard cantrip that does 1d6 (scales later) to creatures in a 5ft radius around you. It does have friendly-fire though. Generally you're better off with a crossbow unless you're being mobbed by enemies.

Even after 6th, bards can feel a little spell-starved compared to other classes. It's the trade-off for massive versatility and fantastic skills.

[Zman]

At your current level just attacking with a Rapier is fine, not optimal compared to a martial, but not bad nonetheless. At 4th picking up Magic Initiate for Firebolt/Eldritch Blast and Greenflame Blade from either Sorcerer or Warlock is great and gives you a viable melee option even to late game.

[malachi]

Just took a sampling of quotes, since there seem to be a few threads of comments.


What spells have you chosen? As a lore bard myself, I'm not a fan of the warlock dip (which I've done.) Delaying your bard progression is HUGE with both access to magical secrets and higher level spells being pushed back if you do so.
The spells I plan to have at Bard lvl 5 (this is rough and from memory):
Vicious Mockery, Friends, minor illusion
Lvl 1: Healing Words, Bane, Faerie Fire, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, sleep (currently have it)
Lvl 2: Phantasmal Force, Blindness/Deafness, heat metal, suggestion
Lvl 3: hypnotic pattern


Perception is key. [Strong opinion follows.] If you wanted to be a spellcaster and only a spellcaster, you should have rolled a Wizard or Sorcerer.

Bards are versatile, as in, they can do everything pretty well. You are more than capable in melee than you think you are. A Rapier with 14 Dex is decent enough to wail on foes (or use a ranged weapon, as you get +Dex to damage with it).

I can sympathize with your lack of "crowd control". Warlock isn't going to help much in that direction - it's a great pairing with bard (d10+Cha scaling ranged attack is pretty baller; once you get 5 total levels you get a second EB ray) but you still won't be addressing you party's issue. You need abilities that can target multiple foes.

Spells that affect multiple targets that you can get NOW include Faerie Fire (give everyone advantage on affected targets), Sleep and Thunderwave. Tasha's Hideous Laughter straight up incapacitates one foe so long as your players save him for last.

I'm assuming you went Valorbard in order to get Medium Armor Mastery at 4th; Bards do not begin play with Medium Armor proficiency so you shouldn't have been able to take that feat at 1st. Good news! You'd likely get to re-choose your feat.

If you want the blasty spells, go Dragon Sorcerer over Warlock. You'll get an 'always on' armor effect, making your base AC 13+Dex with no armor.

If you then take Valorbard, you'd get shield proficiency and access to martial weapons. The 'design intent' is that the Valorbard is more of a melee combatant that boosts the combat efficiency of his team, whereas the Lore Bard becomes more of a caster by 'borrowing' spells from any class at certain levels.

You just need to get over your d4 Vicious Mockery spam. You're not a wizard/sorcerer. ^_^

Ah, had a typo. Medium armor proficiency, not mastery. I may still have the name wrong, but the feat that lets a character wear medium armor and shields. Edited the top post.
Yes, perception is important. I am more comfortable in systems where you're not limited to spells/day (4e and Iron Kingdoms, for instance), so I'm aware that a good portion of my problem is in expectations.
The proposed warlock dip is not to help with crowd control, but to help between controlling crowds (and give a few extra non-combat tricks). I also dislike the thought of spending spells/day on something as banal as damage :p

Oh, and I also physically dislike the act of rolling a d4. The shape just bothers me... (Yes, I have problems :) ).



I'm not going to criticize for wanting to do the optimal amount of damage, but dipping is probably going to hurt you more in the long run. What spells do you currently possess? Bard's aren't known for their magic dps, at least, not early on. They're more of a support class, with a mix of healing, utility, and dps. What are your other stats? I can't really speak for your luck regarding Vicious Mockery, that's how the dice roll sometimes. What are the other player classes? Are you feeling weak in comparison to how they're performing? Sometimes, the problem is actually your perception, and it's not actually a problem.

Stats: 8 14 14 12 12 16.
Other players are rogue, barbarian, paladin, cleric. Other than the DM, I appear to have the most knowledge of the game, which came from when I read portions of the PHB a few weeks ago, and reading stuff on here.


Don't do it!

Third level spells at level 5 is kind of not to be missed. Fireball at level 6 (for lore) or second attack (for valor) is also potentially useful.

Sacrificing these benefits to dish out second rate DPR... not worth it.

As mentioned earlier, VHuman cannot take MAM at level 1; Magic Initiate might be better if you want to deal damage. Various useful cantrips exist for this.

Even so, bards optimized for damage can be competent, but this is not optimizing toward bardic awesomeness. Damage is something to do between bouts of awesome, and bards have a repertoire of different kinds of awesome. Damage isn't in there.

Anyway,

Ken


Lore bard 13 here. Definitely going to agree that a dip, while great, does suck when you're looking up at that next magical secrets. Having two 1st level slots isn't so bad when you use them on dissonant whispers, but it's still not as good as that one high-level slot. Also, at your level, 1d4+disadvantage far outclasses 1d10. heck, even 2d4+disadvantage is better than 2d10 until around level 8 when pretty much everything has multiattack. Agonizing Blast makes it better, but that vicious mockery is great.
That said, at level 12 I took spell sniper (I'd already taken m. initiate:bard and ritual caster:wizard, since I rolled an 18 and was a half elf for 20 cha from the start) and it's working great. Being able to get around cover is really nice too. And EB's range becomes so far you don't have to think about it anymore.

It seems like enemies are typically in the range where a solid hit (i.e. 1d10+mod) is enough to kill them. Although that might just be an early level thing. And, as others have said, I might be better off with a ranged weapon (but that means dropping the shield, and means I'm even easier pickings for the enemies who randomly leap from a building and one-shot one or two PCs before anyone gets a chance to respond).
I want to keep my CHA up as much as possible (for skills, save DCs, and inspiration dice), so I wouldn't really want to spend an ASI on a feat until 12, which keeps me from having a consistently useful at-will ability until I'll have enough spells/day to be always doing something.


It seems like there's pretty broad recommendation against dipping for warlock, as dropping behind on spell progression hurts so much.
Right now, my options are: get up with a rapier (which will get me killed by something leaping out of a building and taking me out in one turn), drop my shield and pull out a crossbow (which takes an action to load, so can only fire every other turn - unless I'm reading the loading rule wrong), or use vicious mockery (which seems to have a bad track record). Buffing/debuffing with bardic inspiration is nice, but doesn't feel particularly active. Disabling foes does feel active, but low spell numbers means I can only do it so many times.


Another question: when coming up against something that has legendary saves, especially when I've already used a decent chunk of my spells that day, am I expected to just use 3 extra spells against the baddy before I get a chance to actually contribute? (Or is that just what Phantasmal Force is for, to make them save on their own turn)
I'm assuming at this point that the cleric isn't going forcing saves much (but I don't know what his playstyle is yet).

[DireSickFish]

Another question: when coming up against something that has legendary saves, especially when I've already used a decent chunk of my spells that day, am I expected to just use 3 extra spells against the baddy before I get a chance to actually contribute? (Or is that just what Phantasmal Force is for, to make them save on their own turn)
I'm assuming at this point that the cleric isn't going forcing saves much (but I don't know what his playstyle is yet).

There are 2 options for dealing with Legendary Saves generally.

1. Spam saving throw spells and abilities on everyone in the party to eat through Legendary saves within the first round or two.

2. Avoid any abilities that have a save and just beat it up with regular attacks, buffs, and abilities that don't require a save.

I played a Sorcerer that focused on Save or Suck spells and was the only one in the party that really has Saving Throw Stuff. So I've seen first hand how much it sucks to feel like your doing nothing the whole fight. But know the DM is sweating every save he loses because your getting closer and closer to being able to critically cripple his big bad.

I'd take a serious look at picking up Bless instead of Bane, it will serve you much better int he long run. It especially benefits a Rogue because of how important landing their attack are for Sneak Attack damage.

[JAL_1138]

If you use a crossbow, ditch the shield. You need a free hand to load, even with the feat, and removing a putting on a shield is a full action(!) so it's not worth it to try using both at the same time.

EDIT: Crossbows do not take an action to load. The loading property prevents them from being fired more than once per round without a feat.

If you use a shield and a weapon, or use TWF, you need the Warcaster feat to perform somatic components without stowing your weapon, BTW.

(Bless is not on the bard list, though Bane is; it's a waste of a Magical Secret to pick up, IMO.)

[Specter]

My first answer was too simplified. Anyway.

Bards are not meant to be damage dealers. And like every other full caster, they run out of spell slots at the same rate. When they have no spells, they'll do exactly what you're doing, spam cantrips. The only difference is their cantrips will deal d8 or 10 damage, while yours deals d4 BUT also has a nice rider effect. See where I'm going?

If you want to deal better damage, you have a few options:
a) grab a level of Sorcerer/Magic Initiate for extra cantrips (Booming Blade for melee);
b) grab Fireball/Lightning Arrow/whatever at level 6 for AoE;
c) grab Paladin smite spells and focus on melee.

But I wouldn't do any of those. If worse comes to worst (no spell slots), either attack them or Vicious Mockery them or Thunderclap them or give the Help action. There's plenty to do.
And remember, other spellcasters can't be the skillmonkey and party face you are outside of combat, and they'll hate you for it.

[DireSickFish]

If you use a crossbow, ditch the shield. You need a free hand to load, even with the feat, and removing a putting on a shield is a full action(!) so it's not worth it to try using both at the same time.

If you use a shield and a weapon, or use TWF, you need the Warcaster feat to perform somatic components without stowing your weapon, BTW.

(Bless is not on the bard list, though Bane is; it's a waste of a Magical Secret to pick up, IMO.)

It isn't? Dang could have swore it was. My bad.

[malachi]

There are 2 options for dealing with Legendary Saves generally.

1. Spam saving throw spells and abilities on everyone in the party to eat through Legendary saves within the first round or two.

2. Avoid any abilities that have a save and just beat it up with regular attacks, buffs, and abilities that don't require a save.

I played a Sorcerer that focused on Save or Suck spells and was the only one in the party that really has Saving Throw Stuff. So I've seen first hand how much it sucks to feel like your doing nothing the whole fight. But know the DM is sweating every save he loses because your getting closer and closer to being able to critically cripple his big bad.

I'd take a serious look at picking up Bless instead of Bane, it will serve you much better int he long run. It especially benefits a Rogue because of how important landing their attack are for Sneak Attack damage.

Yeah, not exactly looking forward to that.

As far as Bless, I'm hoping the Paladin or Cleric handle that, and I wouldn't be able to pick that up until lvl 6 magical secrets anyways.


If you use a crossbow, ditch the shield. You need a free hand to load, even with the feat, and removing a putting on a shield is a full action(!) so it's not worth it to try using both at the same time.

If you use a shield and a weapon, or use TWF, you need the Warcaster feat to perform somatic components without stowing your weapon, BTW.

Currently, I keep the rapier stowed most of the time (and don't threaten AoOs), but pull it out as the free object manipulation when I want to use it.

[JAL_1138]

It isn't? Dang could have swore it was. My bad.

For a class that has traditionally specialized in buffs since 3E (it was a prestige in 1e and a blaster+skillmonkey in 2nd), it's really kind of odd that it isn't, but it's not on the 1st-level spell section. :/ I'd much rather have it than Bane, but I'm not spending a MS on it.

[JAL_1138]

Yeah, not exactly looking forward to that.

As far as Bless, I'm hoping the Paladin or Cleric handle that, and I wouldn't be able to pick that up until lvl 6 magical secrets anyways.



Currently, I keep the rapier stowed most of the time (and don't threaten AoOs), but pull it out as the free object manipulation when I want to use it.

I mainly play Valors, using Crossbow Expert for damage.

Rapier is a bit higher damage than a crossbow per attack, although you only get one compared to TWF or Xbow Expert, it's still barely behind or equal to most classes' damage at this level, and won't fall horribly behind most cantrip damage if you yoink Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade at 6th. And since you have a shield and medium armor, you're no squishier than a cleric.

When dealing with bosses, at least the ones wearing or using metal, Heat Metal is a fun one. There's no winning against Heat Metal. If they pass the save with a Legendary, they hang on to the object and keep taking damage and Disadvantage. When they take damage, they have to try the save against dropping the object again. Cast it on their weapon and burn through their resistances (literally) in three rounds. If you cast it on armor, they're effectively stuck with it, since they can't drop their armor. Granted, it only works on metal, so a wizard in a cloak with a wooden staff, or a dragon, or whatnot may be immune.

[BiPolar]

Another question: when coming up against something that has legendary saves, especially when I've already used a decent chunk of my spells that day, am I expected to just use 3 extra spells against the baddy before I get a chance to actually contribute? (Or is that just what Phantasmal Force is for, to make them save on their own turn).

How many Monsters with Legendary Saves are you facing at Level 3/4?!

[Ovarwa]

Hi,



Another question: when coming up against something that has legendary saves, especially when I've already used a decent chunk of my spells that day, am I expected to just use 3 extra spells against the baddy before I get a chance to actually contribute? (Or is that just what Phantasmal Force is for, to make them save on their own turn)
I'm assuming at this point that the cleric isn't going forcing saves much (but I don't know what his playstyle is yet).

If you're the only full offensive caster, it will be hard for your party (ie you) to overwhelm an opponent with 3 legendary saves. Ouch. That won't be your combat to shine, perhaps, but as you note, you still have Phantasmal Force. You *also* have all sorts of great Bard support spells, and you have Cutting Words.

Noting your correction: Dex 14 and Medium Armor Proficiency at level 1 with VHuman, and you're a Lore Bard. Levels 5 and 6 will be very good for you; Fireball at level 6 is likely to be pleasant against an entire wave of mooks. Animate Objects later on, also fun. Still not a great for sustained DPR but great at so much else. Various bard optimization guides exist to help you with this.

For your party, I would lose Healing Words. You're the only arcane caster, and the other guys have lots of healing. I suspect the underlying issue is that no one is fully invested in traditional Wizard stuff (whether classic Wizard control or classic Wizard fireball), but the group has lots of "support," with Bard, Cleric and Paladin all being good at this.

Anyway,

Ken

[BiPolar]

Overall, I do agree with the problem is your perception of your PC and not the PC itself. Bards are highly versatile and excellent battlefield controllers. At low levels, they aren't as powerful, but once you get access to bigger spells and magical secrets, you start to shine.

Unless you're a valor bard, you're not really built for melee (but can take the hits if you do.) At this level, enjoy using Faerie Fire for everyone's advantage (including your own), heat metal, blindness/deafness, tasha. If you've got your melee characters on a single enemy (which you should encourage) throw a Dissonant Whispers at the poor soul and watch all your friends get free OA. If you're against a big baddy with only one attack, hit him with Vicious Mockery to limit his destruction.

Since it doesn't look like you have Dissonant Whispers (WHY, MAN, WHY?!) drop bane and pick that up at next level. See above for why DW is freaking amazing.

[malachi]

My first answer was too simplified. Anyway.

Bards are not meant to be damage dealers. And like every other full caster, they run out of spell slots at the same rate. When they have no spells, they'll do exactly what you're doing, spam cantrips. The only difference is their cantrips will deal d8 or 10 damage, while yours deals d4 BUT also has a nice rider effect. See where I'm going?

If you want to deal better damage, you have a few options:
a) grab a level of Sorcerer/Magic Initiate for extra cantrips (Booming Blade for melee);
b) grab Fireball/Lightning Arrow/whatever at level 6 for AoE;
c) grab Paladin smite spells and focus on melee.

But I wouldn't do any of those. If worse comes to worst (no spell slots), either attack them or Vicious Mockery them or Thunderclap them or give the Help action. There's plenty to do.
And remember, other spellcasters can't be the skillmonkey and party face you are outside of combat, and they'll hate you for it.

The actual damage at lvl 5-6 is is 2d10+8 (avg of 19) vs 2d4 (avg of 5) + disadvantage on one attack. At that level, won't there be a significant number of enemies who have roughly 20 HP (which eldritch blast might have a chance of killing)? Although, extending that train of thought, would 3d10+15 at level 11 be noticeable (I expect levels 10-16ish to be where the bulk of the gameplay happens, so maximizing my enjoyment there is what I'm after)


How many Monsters with Legendary Saves are you facing at Level 3/4?!

Hopefully, none! But later on that'll be a thing. Just a thing I want to think about.


Hi,



If you're the only full offensive caster, it will be hard for your party (ie you) to overwhelm an opponent with 3 legendary saves. Ouch. That won't be your combat to shine, perhaps, but as you note, you still have Phantasmal Force. You *also* have all sorts of great Bard support spells, and you have Cutting Words.

Noting your correction: Dex 14 and Medium Armor Proficiency at level 1 with VHuman, and you're a Lore Bard. Levels 5 and 6 will be very good for you; Fireball at level 6 is likely to be pleasant against an entire wave of mooks. Animate Objects later on, also fun. Still not a great for sustained DPR but great at so much else. Various bard optimization guides exist to help you with this.

For your party, I would lose Healing Words. You're the only arcane caster, and the other guys have lots of healing. I suspect the underlying issue is that no one is fully invested in traditional Wizard stuff (whether classic Wizard control or classic Wizard fireball), but the group has lots of "support," with Bard, Cleric and Paladin all being good at this.

Anyway,

Ken

If the lethality drops a bit as HP balloons, I can drop healing words. But it currently seems necessary when we commonly get an enemy in the 2nd or 3rd coming in who can take down a PC in one hit, have 2 attacks, and hit the highest AC (mine) on a 7. Maybe it'll let up when we're not on the receiving end of a siege and losing party members because they want to seduce a dragon?


Overall, I do agree with the problem is your perception of your PC and not the PC itself. Bards are highly versatile and excellent battlefield controllers. At low levels, they aren't as powerful, but once you get access to bigger spells and magical secrets, you start to shine.

Unless you're a valor bard, you're not really built for melee (but can take the hits if you do.) At this level, enjoy using Faerie Fire for everyone's advantage (including your own), heat metal, blindness/deafness, tasha. If you've got your melee characters on a single enemy (which you should encourage) throw a Dissonant Whispers at the poor soul and watch all your friends get free OA. If you're against a big baddy with only one attack, hit him with Vicious Mockery to limit his destruction.

Since it doesn't look like you have Dissonant Whispers (WHY, MAN, WHY?!) drop bane and pick that up at next level. See above for why DW is freaking amazing.

... Why did I never consider Faerie Fire's effects on my own attacks? (Although, that would be another benefit of EB over VM)
No Dissonant Whispers because I wasn't sure if 3d6 + some number of AoO would be worth a 1st level slot (when it could be used to bring an ally back from negative health, take one enemy out of the fight for a while, give allies advantage on attacks, or give 3 enemies d4 penalty to attacks and saves - which should stack with VM if the thing only gets 1 attack and has enough HP to survive a round of attacks from the allies).

[BiPolar]

... Why did I never consider Faerie Fire's effects on my own attacks? (Although, that would be another benefit of EB over VM)
No Dissonant Whispers because I wasn't sure if 3d6 + some number of AoO would be worth a 1st level slot (when it could be used to bring an ally back from negative health, take one enemy out of the fight for a while, give allies advantage on attacks, or give 3 enemies d4 penalty to attacks and saves - which should stack with VM if the thing only gets 1 attack and has enough HP to survive a round of attacks from the allies).

Couple of things:

1) EB is absolutely a better damage cantrip, but you've got to either use a feat, a dip, or magical secrets to get it. Not worth it, in my opinion.
2) Don't think of DW as a big damage dealer for YOU. You're 3d6 is the gravy. What it does is give every ally in melee range an OA. That, my friend, is enormous.

[StarStuff]

Are you making use of ritual casting? It reminds me I'm caster every 10 minutes when I have to re-up Detect Magic.

I'd also recommend you look into spells with longer durations. For some reason, when you have Animal Handling (non-expertise), Speak with Animals and Animal Friendship, DM's are more inclined to float you a free wolf buddy or warhorse to command around the battle.

Feather Fall opens up fights that were otherwise impossible and gives you an excuse to rock shenanigans like jumping off of buildings or riding an Ogre over a cliff. It's on you to make it happen. Though I suppose that isn't really solving your spell slot problem.

Longstrider is a little underrated. Last an hour. 10ft move speed to another critter. Personally, I love drawing mobs away from a fight with movement and Deception/Disguise Self while my allies go to work on whoever sticks around.

Playing Tag is another version of control, after all.

Don't wrapped up in damage. Big dice rolls are fun, but as a bard, it's your job to think of the most creative way to spend your action.

[Herobizkit]

How's your Wisdom?

13 WIS and two levels in Druid gets you some VERY INTERESTING riders to your already great array of stuff.

- If you Land Druid, you get a free Druid cantrip. Mario up with that Produce Fire. Pluk pluk.
- If you Moon Druid, enjoy your boatloads of extra HP.

In either case, you get some really great area control spells (Faerie Fire, Entangle, Thunderwave) that you can swap out every day as required.

Just a rando thought. ^_^

[Ashrym]

I have a low level bard (somewhere between 3-4 right now, not sure where, since I missed a session). When he is out of spells, he feels spectacularly useless (vicious mockery targets either make the save or still hit even with disadvantage. Every time.) I have medium armor and shield (from vhuman medium armor masteryproficiency), and 14 Dex, so rapier / ranged weapons aren't particularly useful to me (and my AC drops a lot if I drop my shield).
My DM seems to like long combats with multiple waves of enemies, so no single spell I cast is going to cripple a majority of any given fight (and then I spend a lot of turns attempting to mock my foes, but they mostly just don't care).

My initial thought was to take 2 levels of warlock for EB w/ charisma mod to dmg, telepathy, and at-will disguise self, then jump back to bard forever, but I'm concerned that I might later discover that I miss the 2 levels of spellcasting progression more than I'm thinking now.

Would you take a 2 level warlock dip? If so, when and, most importantly, would you do it for the concerns I have, or will I quickly gain the spells/day to make up for bad at-will capabilities?

Thanks!

When I first read the title I thought you meant spells known and disagreed, but realize now you meant spell slots. That's not different clerics and moon druids, tbh, and arcane / natural renewal or sorcery points are not giving that big of a jump. The problem isn't the lack of slots (everyone has that problem at that level) or the lack of spells known (same for everyone) but the focus on using cantrips for damage when bards are more utility than damage unless a player directs them towards damage.

If you use a shield you have d8+mod when most cantrips are d8 or d10 so you aren't behind on damage, and if you switch to 2 short swords 2d6+mod is better than cantrips at those levels. Splashing warlock for eldritch blast isn't necessarily a bad choice but it's certainly not needed or an improvement in damage at those levels. All you really need to do is pick up a better cantrip for damage via secrets at 6th level and you're good to go as far as average cantrip damage goes, or use magic initiate as a feat (you'll break even because splashing costs an ASI that you would keep for this feat by not splashing), or swap out viscious mockery for thunderclap when you level up, etc; or continue using weapons until 10th level just before the difference really comes into play.

Given the waves of enemies thunderclap might be the way to go. Enemies will still save but that's still the same problem spell casters have at low levels in 5e. It's not a bard issue. If it were me I'd probably pick up shillelagh and green flame blade at 6th level, and call it good because that suits the waves of enemies as well. You don't want to splash before font of inspiration if you do go that route. Bardic inspiration it too useful and regaining it on a short rest is nice.

my 2cp

[severalservals]

I played a low level bard as the only caster in a small party of meleeists. It was generally a lot of fun and a great class, but you do have to get used to being support and control instead of straight damage.

If saves are getting you down, Heroism is still great at bard level 3. That made a huge difference for my party in many fights. It stops a lot of damage - over five rounds, for two characters, if you've got a Cha of 16, that's 30 points of damage prevented, or almost 4 times as much as Healing Word will fix at the same level.

Alternating between ranged weapon and VM, depending on foe AC/save, was effective, though I always lagged in direct damage.

Suggestion is a bit DM dependent, but in my campaign I was able to turn enemies into allies pretty consistently if I knew much about the enemies and could think of a plausible wording.

Minor Illusion and Mage Hand both lend themselves to creative uses that are a lot more interesting than spamming VM. I've dropped a flaming cloak on an enemy's head or tricked it into wasting time looking for an invisible caster with the aural Illusion of a spell being invoked. Both of them can keep your squishy self out of melee, too.

Always be looking for ways to use Inspiration and Cutting Words. They add up.

Overall, I found I generally laid down one big concentration spell, then did a mixture of ranged, VM, creative other cantrip use, bardic inspiration and the occasional heal. It wasn't quite as obvious as spamming EB, but it was very effective, offered more variety and more outlet for creativity.

[odigity]

vicious mockery targets either make the save or still hit even with disadvantage. Every time.

Sucks about the run of bad luck you've had. In my experience, VM has been very effective. I think it was a fluke, and you shouldn't give up hope.


vhuman medium armor proficiency

I wouldn't have spent a Feat on medium armor, but I guess AC +3 is pretty big bump, assuming you can afford half-plate.

I assume you already have at least a chain shirt, which gets you to AC 15 without a shield. That's more than enough for someone not engaging in melee. You should be (a) keep away from enemies (b) trusting your tanks to keep you from harm.

With two hands free, you could, for example, use a longbow for 1d8+Dex dmg at great range instead of a cantrip.


The spells I plan to have at Bard lvl 5 (this is rough and from memory):
Vicious Mockery, Friends, minor illusion
Lvl 1: Healing Words, Bane, Faerie Fire, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, sleep (currently have it)
Lvl 2: Phantasmal Force, Blindness/Deafness, heat metal, suggestion
Lvl 3: hypnotic pattern

That's a nearly optimal set of choices for a low-level Bard, which makes me think you already know what you're doing and don't really need much advice. :)

As others have said, I would prioritize Dissonant Whispers over Tasha's, but they're both great.


I want to keep my CHA up as much as possible (for skills, save DCs, and inspiration dice), so I wouldn't really want to spend an ASI on a feat until 12, which keeps me from having a consistently useful at-will ability until I'll have enough spells/day to be always doing something.

Cha is definitely the top priority.


Oh, and I also physically dislike the act of rolling a d4.

You're not alone. That's why I bought a few of these:

https://www.thediceshoponline.com/dice/1015/Chessex-Speckled-Urban-Camo-Roman-Numeral-D4-Dice-Numbered-1-4

As for multiclassing, if this is your first time playing a 5e bard, I recommend against it. Use this opportunity to get to know bard and do the most with it. It's both powerful and versatile and designed to be effective and fun by itself at all levels. I still remember the first time I played with a 5e bard; we were all blown away by how consistently he was able to contribute to combat, and not via doing damage. It got to the point where if he didn't show up to a session, we felt naked and exposed.

Lastly, if you want to keep Vicious Mockery from getting boring, trying actually mocking the enemy in-character. Maybe grab a book of insults from Amazon.

[JAL_1138]

Once you can start spamming Hypnotic Pattern, you'll feel like you're doing a lot more in a fight. That spell can completely change an encounter, in some ways more than a Fireball can. Fireball has to do enough damage to take an enemy out of the fight altogether; with Hypnotic Pattern, they get one saving throw. (On the other hand, it's pass/fail; they're either fine or they're stunned, no middle ground, whereas even if they save against a Fireball they've been softened up somewhat.)

It doesn't allow saves on subsequent turns, so if an enemy fails their save, they're just out of the fight for ten rounds unless a) someone deliberately wakes them up by using their action to do so, b) they take damage, or c) your concentration gets broken.

Hypnotic Pattern also got my Valor bard out of more than one scrape with an angry mob. Cast it and run. He does not live up to the "valor" part of the name. :smalltongue:
It's also come in handy to stop a party member who'd been mind-controlled by an enemy from attacking without harming them.

[tieren]

Not so much from an optimization standpoint, but from a role playing one, I love the idea of dipping warlock because you don't feel your character is powerful enough. Thats sort of the primary warlock shtick.

Maybe as you go you find you like being a warlock more than a bard and are swayed further into the service of your patron...muhuwahaha

Sounds like a lot of fun to me, I'd totally do it.

[malachi]

Couple of things:

1) EB is absolutely a better damage cantrip, but you've got to either use a feat, a dip, or magical secrets to get it. Not worth it, in my opinion.
2) Don't think of DW as a big damage dealer for YOU. You're 3d6 is the gravy. What it does is give every ally in melee range an OA. That, my friend, is enormous.

1) Starting to agree about that (and it takes a dip to make it remotely worthwhile, as EB without Agonizing Blast is only +6 damage over Vicious Mockery at lvl 5, compared to +14 with Agonizing Blast).
2) If it hits, its basically 3d6 + my melee guys get slightly less than a free turn against that guy (because its 1 attack, rather than the full 2-3 attacks that non-rogue frontline fighters get). If Tasha's Hideous Laughter hits, my whole party gets a free turn against one guy (and the tanks don't lose their reaction, so they stay sticky).
As a funny note, if I go GOOlock, I have the spells known for both Tasha's and Dissonant Whispers (there are very few warlock spells I'd want to cast as 1st level spells, and GOOlocks get both) :p
Realization as I was finishing up all this stuff: But if I'm already concentrating on something (Hypnotic Pattern), DW is a better spell. So maybe I'll swap over to that at level 5-6.


Are you making use of ritual casting? It reminds me I'm caster every 10 minutes when I have to re-up Detect Magic.

I'd also recommend you look into spells with longer durations. For some reason, when you have Animal Handling (non-expertise), Speak with Animals and Animal Friendship, DM's are more inclined to float you a free wolf buddy or warhorse to command around the battle.

Feather Fall opens up fights that were otherwise impossible and gives you an excuse to rock shenanigans like jumping off of buildings or riding an Ogre over a cliff. It's on you to make it happen. Though I suppose that isn't really solving your spell slot problem.

Longstrider is a little underrated. Last an hour. 10ft move speed to another critter. Personally, I love drawing mobs away from a fight with movement and Deception/Disguise Self while my allies go to work on whoever sticks around.

Playing Tag is another version of control, after all.

Don't wrapped up in damage. Big dice rolls are fun, but as a bard, it's your job to think of the most creative way to spend your action.

These are all actually additional reasons why I'd want to dip GOOlock. I get 3 extra 1st level spells known (2 of which are things that I already have on my Bard spell list, so that lets me move those spells over to utility rituals like Detect Magic or Speak with Animals).

Spells known as Bard5:
Cantrips:Vicious Mockery, Friends, minor illusion
4/day Lvl 1: Healing Words, Bane, Faerie Fire, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
3/day Lvl 2: Phantasmal Force, Blindness/Deafness, heat metal, suggestion (I listed this at first, but I won't actually know that many spells. Maybe take out Bane instead, since only 1 other PC can target saves, and he also knows Bane (and my concentration spells get more bang out of lowered saves than his (I think)))
2/day Lvl 3: hypnotic pattern

Spells known as Bard3/Lock2:
Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Friends, Minor Illusion, Eldritch Blast (+Agonizing Blast)
Other at-will stuff: Mask of Many Faces (at-will disguise self is fun), 30' telepathy that ignores language barriers
6-8/day Lvl 1: Healing Words, Bane, Faerie Fire, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Dissonant Whispers, Hex, Speak with Animals
2/day Lvl 2: Phantasmal Force, Heat Metal

Questions for myself:
So am I willing to give up my 2 highest level spell slots for at-will damage, at-will disguise, and at-will telepathy?
And alternate question (after what everyone's said, do I even care about that damage?), would I be willing to give up that at-will damage for extra at-will utility (utility cantrip instead of EB and utility invocation instead of AB)?


How's your Wisdom?

13 WIS and two levels in Druid gets you some VERY INTERESTING riders to your already great array of stuff.

- If you Land Druid, you get a free Druid cantrip. Mario up with that Produce Fire. Pluk pluk.
- If you Moon Druid, enjoy your boatloads of extra HP.

In either case, you get some really great area control spells (Faerie Fire, Entangle, Thunderwave) that you can swap out every day as required.

Just a rando thought. ^_^

Not a good fit. Only have WIS 12 and, while I could retrain, I can't up my WIS high enough to give the Druid spells a high enough DC to be worth casting instead of a Bard spell.


When I first read the title I thought you meant spells known and disagreed, but realize now you meant spell slots. That's not different clerics and moon druids, tbh, and arcane / natural renewal or sorcery points are not giving that big of a jump. The problem isn't the lack of slots (everyone has that problem at that level) or the lack of spells known (same for everyone) but the focus on using cantrips for damage when bards are more utility than damage unless a player directs them towards damage.

If you use a shield you have d8+mod when most cantrips are d8 or d10 so you aren't behind on damage, and if you switch to 2 short swords 2d6+mod is better than cantrips at those levels. Splashing warlock for eldritch blast isn't necessarily a bad choice but it's certainly not needed or an improvement in damage at those levels. All you really need to do is pick up a better cantrip for damage via secrets at 6th level and you're good to go as far as average cantrip damage goes, or use magic initiate as a feat (you'll break even because splashing costs an ASI that you would keep for this feat by not splashing), or swap out viscious mockery for thunderclap when you level up, etc; or continue using weapons until 10th level just before the difference really comes into play.

Given the waves of enemies thunderclap might be the way to go. Enemies will still save but that's still the same problem spell casters have at low levels in 5e. It's not a bard issue. If it were me I'd probably pick up shillelagh and green flame blade at 6th level, and call it good because that suits the waves of enemies as well. You don't want to splash before font of inspiration if you do go that route. Bardic inspiration it too useful and regaining it on a short rest is nice.

my 2cp

I'm not certain if I want to dip into books outside of PHB, because it looks like the other 4 players won't look that direction, so Thunderclap / GFB / BB aren't options for me. If I were to do that, I'd definitely have to start looking through my level 6 magical secrets selection to see if there are any lvl 1 / 2 AOE disables I'd want (also: OH RIGHT, other classes might have AOE disables in other slots for when I run out of Hypnotic Patterns! *facepalm* I don't know where exactly I rate single-target disables that use concentration when compared to at-will damage, but I definitely rate AOE disables higher)

Using an ASI for magic initiate pushes back max CHA by 4 levels and doesn't get me the full damage increase (making it not worthwhile), while a 2 level dip only pushes it back 2 (and brings me to the cost benefit analysis of at-will abilities from GOOlock and higher level spells from straight Bard).


I played a low level bard as the only caster in a small party of meleeists. It was generally a lot of fun and a great class, but you do have to get used to being support and control instead of straight damage.

If saves are getting you down, Heroism is still great at bard level 3. That made a huge difference for my party in many fights. It stops a lot of damage - over five rounds, for two characters, if you've got a Cha of 16, that's 30 points of damage prevented, or almost 4 times as much as Healing Word will fix at the same level.

Alternating between ranged weapon and VM, depending on foe AC/save, was effective, though I always lagged in direct damage.

Suggestion is a bit DM dependent, but in my campaign I was able to turn enemies into allies pretty consistently if I knew much about the enemies and could think of a plausible wording.

Minor Illusion and Mage Hand both lend themselves to creative uses that are a lot more interesting than spamming VM. I've dropped a flaming cloak on an enemy's head or tricked it into wasting time looking for an invisible caster with the aural Illusion of a spell being invoked. Both of them can keep your squishy self out of melee, too.

Always be looking for ways to use Inspiration and Cutting Words. They add up.

Overall, I found I generally laid down one big concentration spell, then did a mixture of ranged, VM, creative other cantrip use, bardic inspiration and the occasional heal. It wasn't quite as obvious as spamming EB, but it was very effective, offered more variety and more outlet for creativity.

I don't agree about Heroism. It's only 3-4 temp HP a turn, and from the way that temp HP works I'm pretty sure that it refreshes to 3-4 temp HP, rather than keeps on stacking (so it only helps if the ally is taking damage every turn - granted, that's what's going to happen to the Barb, but I'm not sure I want to spend a lvl 2 slot and concentration to mitigate 3-4 HP damage a turn when I could be removing one enemy from the fight for a while with an INT save, or giving an armor-wearing enemy disadvantage on attacks/check and dealing consistent damage). Healing Word is there for when allies are dropping and I can't get over to stabilize them (or need to stabilize 2 allies in a turn).

Due to the subjective nature of suggestion, I'm not sure what spell I should drop to keep it on my list (I had 1 too many spells known listed). It uses concentration, but the least powerful thing it does is convinces a dangerous foe to walk out of the room. I doubt I could use it to get another ally in combat, but it has all kinds of out of combat uses.

Outlet for creativity is good for the first 80% of the session, but towards the end I lose energy (combination of staying up later than my "old" self typically stays up and other environmental stuff).


Sucks about the run of bad luck you've had. In my experience, VM has been very effective. I think it was a fluke, and you shouldn't give up hope.



I wouldn't have spent a Feat on medium armor, but I guess AC +3 is pretty big bump, assuming you can afford half-plate.

I assume you already have at least a chain shirt, which gets you to AC 15 without a shield. That's more than enough for someone not engaging in melee. You should be (a) keep away from enemies (b) trusting your tanks to keep you from harm.

With two hands free, you could, for example, use a longbow for 1d8+Dex dmg at great range instead of a cantrip.



That's a nearly optimal set of choices for a low-level Bard, which makes me think you already know what you're doing and don't really need much advice. :)

As others have said, I would prioritize Dissonant Whispers over Tasha's, but they're both great.



Cha is definitely the top priority.



You're not alone. That's why I bought a few of these:

https://www.thediceshoponline.com/dice/1015/Chessex-Speckled-Urban-Camo-Roman-Numeral-D4-Dice-Numbered-1-4

As for multiclassing, if this is your first time playing a 5e bard, I recommend against it. Use this opportunity to get to know bard and do the most with it. It's both powerful and versatile and designed to be effective and fun by itself at all levels. I still remember the first time I played with a 5e bard; we were all blown away by how consistently he was able to contribute to combat, and not via doing damage. It got to the point where if he didn't show up to a session, we felt naked and exposed.

Lastly, if you want to keep Vicious Mockery from getting boring, trying actually mocking the enemy in-character. Maybe grab a book of insults from Amazon.

The feat gives me AC 17 right now (chain shirt + shield), and allowed me to put more points into INT and WIS, which fit my character concept better than being a sneaky little guy.
Can't use a longbow because its a military weapon, and I'm a human. A hand crossbow is 1d6+dex, so only 1 less average damage (although at level 5, that's 5.5 dmg as opposed to the 5 from Vicious Mockery - so there's a very short period of time where a hand crossbow is useful to me).

I'm definitely going to have to pick up 2-4 of these. d8s are much better to roll, and there's a good chance that rolling d8 / 2s for damage will make me feel much better physically about vicious mockery.

I'm definitely seeing the weight of ideas against multiclassing for combat optimization reasons at this point. I just need to decide if the ancillary reasons (non-damage invocations, extra 1st level spells, etc) are worth my highest 2-3 spells / day for most of my career.


Once you can start spamming Hypnotic Pattern, you'll feel like you're doing a lot more in a fight. That spell can completely change an encounter, in some ways more than a Fireball can. Fireball has to do enough damage to take an enemy out of the fight altogether; with Hypnotic Pattern, they get one saving throw. (On the other hand, it's pass/fail; they're either fine or they're stunned, no middle ground, whereas even if they save against a Fireball they've been softened up somewhat.)

It doesn't allow saves on subsequent turns, so if an enemy fails their save, they're just out of the fight for ten rounds unless a) someone deliberately wakes them up by using their action to do so, b) they take damage, or c) your concentration gets broken.

Hypnotic Pattern also got my Valor bard out of more than one scrape with an angry mob. Cast it and run. He does not live up to the "valor" part of the name. :smalltongue:
It's also come in handy to stop a party member who'd been mind-controlled by an enemy from attacking without harming them.

Yeah, Hypnotic Pattern is going to be great when there are 3+ dangerous enemies (with a good DC, I should expect for 2 of them to fail - so if the 3rd uses his action to shake the others out of it the enemy team loses 5 actions over the first two rounds of combat, or we're only fighting one enemy at a time), or a horde of mooks.
I can only cast it 2-3 times a day (although, are the 4th level spells as good as Hypnotic Pattern? Sooo... maybe more like 5-6 times a day at levels 7+)


Not so much from an optimization standpoint, but from a role playing one, I love the idea of dipping warlock because you don't feel your character is powerful enough. Thats sort of the primary warlock shtick.

Maybe as you go you find you like being a warlock more than a bard and are swayed further into the service of your patron...muhuwahaha

Sounds like a lot of fun to me, I'd totally do it.

At this point, I think that the roleplaying perspective is the only reason to not go straight bard. While my damage will increase by dipping warlock, my actual power (i.e. controlling the battlefield) goes down.
Now, there is probably a period of time where I don't mind trading my 1-3 highest spell slots for extra at-will (Telepathy, Disguise Self and one of Detect Magic / Devil's Sight / Silent Image / Speak With Animals / etc, along with freeing up 1 or 2 bard spells known) and per-rest capability (Song of rest now heals 1d10+2d4+15 for one guy; 2 extra single-target disables or Dissonant Whispers (what's the plural of Dissonant Whispers? Dissonant Whisperses? Dissonant Whisperi? Dissonants Whispers?) / rest). Without looking into what I can nab with magical secrets, 4th, 5th and maybe 8th level spells seem a little lack-luster for combat applications, but 6th, 7th, and 9th all look amazing.

Now, if you could grab invocations with Magical Secrets, that'd be awesome (and yes, I would be highly tempted to take Disguise Self and/or Silent Image at level 6 :p). But also silly, because a level 20 Lore Bard could have more invocations that a Warlock (I think).


At this point, I'm pretty confident I'm going to stay with straight Bard.
Thanks for the comments, everyone!

[BiPolar]

At this point, I'm pretty confident I'm going to stay with straight Bard.
Thanks for the comments, everyone!

Obviously,I think you're making the right decision :) For Magical Secrets, the obvious gimme spells are counterspell and fireball, but there are a lot of good options out there. If you can pickup Counterspell and Dispel Magic, you're basically a spellcaster's worst nightmare.

[JAL_1138]

4th-level bard spells are good, particularly Greater Invisibility and Polymorph, but are more single-target or situational.

Polymorph is good for out-of-combat uses or disabling a single enemy until the mooks are mopped up, but the very best use of it in combat, in my experience, is using it to buff your party Fighter, which can be solid gold. Turn the Fighter into a beast of CR equal to or below their level (Elephant, CR 4; Triceratops, CR5, Mammoth, CR 6; T-Rex, CR 6; Giant Scorpion, CR 3; Giant Shark, CR 5, if in water; Giant Ape, CR 7) for free HP and often considerable extra damage.
Enemies immune to charm may still be vulnerable to it, too, so it can be a disable if needed. One of the most likely uses of your Concentration.
However, be wary of using it as a buff when going up against a spellcaster or a critter that forces saves, especially mental saves; beast saving throws may be much lower than the normal saves of the person you're buffing. In a party that focuses on abilities like spellcasting, Smites, or what have you, it may not be ideal, since they can't use their abilities.

Greater Invisibility is also fantastic and the other most likely use of your Concentration--apply it to the rogue and virtually guarantee them Sneak Attack, while imposing Disadvantage on most enemies' attack rolls and preventing a lot of spells from targeting them.

Freedom of Movement and Dimension Door are situational, but extremely useful when those situations crop up.

Compulsion can be extremely good to set up opportunity attacks in exactly the right circumstances, but is generally situational. Creatures can take their action before they move, only move on their own turns, won't move into an obvious hazard, and it eats your bonus action (and the way I read it, you can only designate a single direction for all affected creatures to move, which limits it--you can't tell one to move right and another to move left, for instance, nor using half their move to go right and the other half to go left). Can be an extremely powerful spell to tag-team with a Cleric using Spirit Guardians under the right circumstances. It can also enable a retreat you couldn't normally take. Then again, so does Hypnotic Pattern. On the other hand, Compulsion has no friendly fire, making it better when you need to run and can't risk hitting a party member.
Still, for me personally, I'd often rather just use the slot for Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, a higher-slot Shatter, higher-slot healing spell, higher-slot Heat Metal, an extra Hypnotic Pattern, or some such.

Confusion is unpredictable and has a 1-in-5 chance of doing nothing to a creature that failed its save and is affected by it. And enemies get a save each round. Skip it, IMO.

Hallucinatory Terrain is highly limited in use. One to skip. Leave it for the prepared casters.

[zioth]

5e is different from other editions in that everyone can do okay in melee, especially at low levels. In my last campaign, I played a sorcerer/cleric who charged into combat more often than he used spells for the first four levels. Why? A cantrip does 1d6 or 1d8 damage (less if using Vicious Mockery). A sword does 1d8 + dex. So until you hit level 5 and get better cantrips, weapons are your best form of reliable damage.

If you want status effects, on the other hand, cantrips are great.

As to whether you should multiclass (and yes, I see you've already decided not to), it depends on what you want for your character. Straight bard is both powerful and fun, but there are other fun options too:

Warlock - two levels get you Eldritch Blast, Hex, and some fun invocations.
Sorcerer - three levels get you metamagic, which is great.
Cleric - one level gets you better healing and heavy armor, or two knowledge skills.
Rogue - the least powerful dip but possibly the most fun, two levels gets you another skill, makes you an expert lockpick, and gives you some very useful bonus actions (disengage will save your life).
Fighter - fun, if not ideal. Two levels gets the Amazing Action Surge. :)

[Ashrym]

I'm not certain if I want to dip into books outside of PHB, because it looks like the other 4 players won't look that direction, so Thunderclap / GFB / BB aren't options for me. If I were to do that, I'd definitely have to start looking through my level 6 magical secrets selection to see if there are any lvl 1 / 2 AOE disables I'd want (also: OH RIGHT, other classes might have AOE disables in other slots for when I run out of Hypnotic Patterns! *facepalm* I don't know where exactly I rate single-target disables that use concentration when compared to at-will damage, but I definitely rate AOE disables higher)

Skipping other source material doesn't change the premise, however. Cantrips just don't do a lot of damage in general. Bards are on the low end of what's typically low regardless. The same idea works if you were to simply pick up hex or hunter's mark and eldritch blast via secrets or fire bolt and poison spray via feat. The specific cantrips I mentioned were based on the type of encounters you mentioned but they aren't necessary for higher damage.


Using an ASI for magic initiate pushes back max CHA by 4 levels and doesn't get me the full damage increase (making it not worthwhile), while a 2 level dip only pushes it back 2 (and brings me to the cost benefit analysis of at-will abilities from GOOlock and higher level spells from straight Bard).

A 2 level dip pushes a lot more than that ASI back and costs an ASI in the end that's completely gone. Using the feat means everything else that would have been pushed back is no longer pushed back and the lost ASI is no longer lost in the end.

The difference in play on the higher ability score is also over-rated. The difference is 1 out of 20 targets save who would have failed or 1 out of 20 targets are missed who would have been hit. The increased damage in at-will options easily makes up for that difference. CHA is definitely important but it can be forgone for those few levels a low levels where saves and AC aren't much anyway.


I don't agree about Heroism. It's only 3-4 temp HP a turn, and from the way that temp HP works I'm pretty sure that it refreshes to 3-4 temp HP, rather than keeps on stacking (so it only helps if the ally is taking damage every turn - granted, that's what's going to happen to the Barb, but I'm not sure I want to spend a lvl 2 slot and concentration to mitigate 3-4 HP damage a turn when I could be removing one enemy from the fight for a while with an INT save, or giving an armor-wearing enemy disadvantage on attacks/check and dealing consistent damage). Healing Word is there for when allies are dropping and I can't get over to stabilize them (or need to stabilize 2 allies in a turn).

I love heroism at low levels. It's far more efficient than healing word or cure wounds, scales additional targets instead of higher numbers, and fear immunity is useful by situation regardless. Removing enemies from the fight is always better but the way 5e has saving throws set up the damage is coming in regardless because lock down isn't a realistic expectation. Opponents with no bonus to saves at all are still going to save ~25% of the time for quite a while.

Heroism loses it's luster rapidly with heaving competition for concentration but it's great for low levels where healing resources are limited.


The feat gives me AC 17 right now (chain shirt + shield), and allowed me to put more points into INT and WIS, which fit my character concept better than being a sneaky little guy.

I'll back you up on that choice. It's a quick way to better AC for lore bards without requiring investing in DEX. It's a solid choice.


At this point, I'm pretty confident I'm going to stay with straight Bard.
Thanks for the comments, everyone!

I prefer straight bard. The capstone is better for lore than valor because lore goes through BI dice faster, typically.

Also, you are welcome. :)



4th-level bard spells are good, particularly Greater Invisibility and Polymorph, but are more single-target or situational.

Polymorph is good for out-of-combat uses or disabling a single enemy until the mooks are mopped up, but the very best use of it in combat, in my experience, is using it to buff your party Fighter, which can be solid gold. Turn the Fighter into a beast of CR equal to or below their level (Elephant, CR 4; Triceratops, CR5, Mammoth, CR 6; T-Rex, CR 6; Giant Scorpion, CR 3; Giant Shark, CR 5, if in water; Giant Ape, CR 7) for free HP and often considerable extra damage.
Enemies immune to charm may still be vulnerable to it, too, so it can be a disable if needed. One of the most likely uses of your Concentration.
However, be wary of using it as a buff when going up against a spellcaster or a critter that forces saves, especially mental saves; beast saving throws may be much lower than the normal saves of the person you're buffing. In a party that focuses on abilities like spellcasting, Smites, or what have you, it may not be ideal, since they can't use their abilities.

Greater Invisibility is also fantastic and the other most likely use of your Concentration--apply it to the rogue and virtually guarantee them Sneak Attack, while imposing Disadvantage on most enemies' attack rolls and preventing a lot of spells from targeting them.

Freedom of Movement and Dimension Door are situational, but extremely useful when those situations crop up.

Compulsion can be extremely good to set up opportunity attacks in exactly the right circumstances, but is generally situational. Creatures can take their action before they move, only move on their own turns, won't move into an obvious hazard, and it eats your bonus action (and the way I read it, you can only designate a single direction for all affected creatures to move, which limits it--you can't tell one to move right and another to move left, for instance, nor using half their move to go right and the other half to go left). Can be an extremely powerful spell to tag-team with a Cleric using Spirit Guardians under the right circumstances. It can also enable a retreat you couldn't normally take. Then again, so does Hypnotic Pattern. On the other hand, Compulsion has no friendly fire, making it better when you need to run and can't risk hitting a party member.
Still, for me personally, I'd often rather just use the slot for Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, a higher-slot Shatter, higher-slot healing spell, higher-slot Heat Metal, an extra Hypnotic Pattern, or some such.

Confusion is unpredictable and has a 1-in-5 chance of doing nothing to a creature that failed its save and is affected by it. And enemies get a save each round. Skip it, IMO.

Hallucinatory Terrain is highly limited in use. One to skip. Leave it for the prepared casters.

I find polymorph is nice but loses it's luster at higher levels too. It still costs concentration and tends to give up AC or be temporary until hp are used up. Greater invisibility is fantastic for a buff. Freedom of movement is something I find I never take over other options. Dimension door is something I do like to take and find it's very useful. Agree with compulsion being extremely useful for a tactical approach but tend to struggle fitting it in when I can use dissonant whispers to cover it. I would never take hallucinatory terrain unless it's because I'm hung up on fitting a theme together; mechanically not worth a limited choice and agree that it should be left to others.

I think we disagree on confusion, however. 20% chance to act normally is still 80% chance to act abnormally in an AoE mezz style that isn't as easily broken as other AoE mess style spells. The total action denial is pretty good even with that 20% chance to act normally. It's also one of those spells that scales in size like fog cloud to give it a decent area in a 6th or 7th level slot.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe you could save more of your spells for healing, use faerie fire on boss enemies, try to help out with bardic inspiration.


I love what the 4e mentality has done to this game....
"I'm at -1 to attack and damage from what an optimized AL character would have, so weapons aren't useful to me."

Dude, just use your rapier more for the time being. You're fine.

I agree with you, but I saw it in pathfinder and 3.5 too. It's not just a 4e thing.

[Aaron Underhand]

5e is different from other editions in that everyone can do okay in melee, especially at low levels. In my last campaign, I played a sorcerer/cleric who charged into combat more often than he used spells for the first four levels. Why? A cantrip does 1d6 or 1d8 damage (less if using Vicious Mockery). A sword does 1d8 + dex. So until you hit level 5 and get better cantrips, weapons are your best form of reliable damage.

If you want status effects, on the other hand, cantrips are great.

As to whether you should multiclass (and yes, I see you've already decided not to), it depends on what you want for your character. Straight bard is both powerful and fun, but there are other fun options too:

Warlock - two levels get you Eldritch Blast, Hex, and some fun invocations.
Sorcerer - three levels get you metamagic, which is great.
Cleric - one level gets you better healing and heavy armor, or two knowledge skills.
Rogue - the least powerful dip but possibly the most fun, two levels gets you another skill, makes you an expert lockpick, and gives you some very useful bonus actions (disengage will save your life).
Fighter - fun, if not ideal. Two levels gets the Amazing Action Surge. :)


Don't forget Wizard!

So just to be perverse I dipped wizard 1, as my second level. To be fair in a party without an arcane caster. That gets you 3 cantrips, all the wizard level one rituals, some prepared spells, and one extra level 1 slot via arcane recovery. Note this includes a familiar, and a variety of 'no-save' spells that don't suffer from your (presumably low ) Int.

The cantrips and rituals in particular will help you with the feeling you haven't enough spell slots.

The level one spells prepared will help you free up Bard known spells for more goodies at level two in particular.

High points for me in playing this character: shield as a reaction... magic missile when the enemy caster is nearly dead and about to cast again, shocking grasp to eliminate the reaction of an enemy engaging all the squishies, and lots of scouting with a familiar. For the future I note that with enhance ability you can get a good chance to cast higher level wizard spells from scrolls...

Of course it's a pain to delay all those nice Bard features by a level, but so far the trade goes well... just need to find a headband of intellect :-)

[MeeposFire]

Maybe you could save more of your spells for healing, use faerie fire on boss enemies, try to help out with bardic inspiration.



I agree with you, but I saw it in pathfinder and 3.5 too. It's not just a 4e thing.

The only time I don't remember seeing it about the bonus directly was AD&D and that was only due to bonuses being so hard to get and so small. 17 str only gets you +1 to hit and damage.

That being said that did not mean that people did not go crazy trying to get higher stats it just meant they were not always doing it for the actual numeric bonus (unless we count the actual highest ability scores where it really matters).

[MrStabby]

Obviously,I think you're making the right decision :) For Magical Secrets, the obvious gimme spells are counterspell and fireball, but there are a lot of good options out there. If you can pickup Counterspell and Dispel Magic, you're basically a spellcaster's worst nightmare.

Counterspell, I would say yes to. It is superb, and especially on a lore bard who can make real use of it. Fireball is good, but not so certainly good. Is it better than conjure animals? Better than aura of vitality? Would call lightening get past resistance better? How would NPCs react if you were using animate dead? Maybe if you are delicate then fly is the spell for you? How about lower level spells - I hear bless and web are good? Fireball I am not certain is the obvious choice.

[JAL_1138]

Counterspell, I would say yes to. It is superb, and especially on a lore bard who can make real use of it. Fireball is good, but not so certainly good. Is it better than conjure animals? Better than aura of vitality? Would call lightening get past resistance better? How would NPCs react if you were using animate dead? Maybe if you are delicate then fly is the spell for you? How about lower level spells - I hear bless and web are good? Fireball I am not certain is the obvious choice.


Shatter isn't as good as Fireball for a 3rd-level slot (averages 10 points of damage less, although certain enemy types get disadvantage on the save, targets Con instead of Dex; more enemies are likely to have better Con than Dex I would imagine--on the other hand, Fire is one of the most common resistances, and Thunder less common), but it's not horrible.

If you're really after damage, I'd suggest holding off and picking up Destructive Wave at 10th as a good one. It's 5th level and sadly doesn't scale, but it's a 30ft sphere centered on you with 5d6 Thunder, 5d6 choice of radiant or necrotic, and prone, with no friendly-fire. Same damage as a 5th-level Fireball, but uncommon resistances, a status effect, huge area, and no risk of catching allies in it. Great spell.

Spirit Guardians would be nice--it's an amazing spell--but it's Concentration, and as a bard you have other things to spend that on. So it's a tough call. It benefits from being upcast more than Fireball, in a way, since it sticks around for 10 rounds. I consider it a better pick for a Valor than a Lore, since Lore wants to stay away from the melee and the range is a 15-ft radius. Not ideal for someone in the back rank.

Aura of Vitality is another one that's stupidly good for the slot, but does cost Concentration. 2d6/rd healing as a bonus action to any creature of your choice within 30 feet for 10 rounds? If only you didn't need to keep tbe Rogue invisible...still worth considering, definitely.

OP, until you hit 10th level don't worry too much about damage spells. Shatter is decent; it'll get you by. There are better spells to spend a Secret on than Fireball.

[Socratov]

AS other have pointed out, don't multiclass out of bard yet. Bard is a very powerful caster and delaying your spells means you will stay behind others. I mean EB is great, but not that great, also some people (and some DM's in particular) like to mess with warlock lights by suddenly incurring your patron to do their bidding. This kinds of puts a damper on the fun.

Instead, at lvl 4, get the Spell Sniper feat: it enable you to ignore anything but full cover for ranged spells, it doubles your max range for spells and here's the kicker: you get to pick an attack cantrip (i.e. a cantrip that is delivered through an attack roll, like Eldritch Blast). Let's discuss EB, shall we, 1d10 equals about 5.5 on average. A rapier with 14 dex makes for about 6.5. So with both you'll be doing at least decent damage. Not top of the bill, but not bad either.

But this is only if you want some damage to deal when you aren't doing more interesting things.

You see, each turn you get a bonus action, movement and a 'regular' action. Wit this regular action you can do anything (if this starts sounding familliar to '90s ladies' hygiene product commercials, that's about right). This means anything from casting a spell, a cantrip, attacking, using a skill, using the help action to assist a party member, interacting with an object, you name it. This includes, but is not limited to: caltrops, ball bearings, a med kit, rope (if you can't figure out how to use rope, you aren't even trying), you name it. Try tripping enemies to give your front liners advantage.

On the topic of spells, You have some spells, even the same amount as other full casters, but that does not mean you should start acting like Oprah once battle starts. That is not your job. Just like it's not your job to be the top sustained damage dealer. (we have fighters and barbarians for that). Neither is it your job to nuke some bad butt motherfornicator form orbit with huge and sudden amounts of damage (we have paladins, rogues and sorcerers for that). No. It's not even your job to solve everything with a huge toolkit of spells. That's what Clerics, Wizards and druids are for. They know more spells, can prepare a lot of them. No. A bard's job is making sure that the party rocks, the enemies suck and that when everyone fails in their specialist taks that you can grab the lime light with the words: "Gee, if only we had someone who could [X], how convenient would that be. But wait what is this? Is it the specific piece of awesome only bards can have and the very reason we are awesome? Why yes it is!" This is true for the staggering amount of skills a bard can have, this is true for the incredibly fun spellist bards have and it's all to do with timing. In the meantime you aren't just waiting besides the stage to finally claim your spotlight, no, you will be enabeling your party by supporting them, by giving them song of rest in between, and by having always the right skill in the right situation. Also, it's not as if the general public is freely talking to the edgelord warlock or magic sputtering sorcerer, and someone has to tell that village merchant that he is better off giving his stuff for a really discounted price to the heroes who will bring fame to his name for what is clearly a sponsorship deal which he should know better about.

On a side note, before you knock Vicious Mockery's effectiveness, please look up the gambler's fallacy and wait for those moments the dice will start turning your way.