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View Full Version : DM Help Throne of Bhaal - how to modify the scheme (Baldur's Gate II spoilers)



Braininthejar2
2016-09-20, 02:20 PM
As some of you already know, I'm DMing a one player campaign based on the Baldur's Gate series.

Last month we finished the game proper, with an epic battle against Irenicus. (thanks to everyone who helped withy planning the hell trials)

The time has come for the Throne of Bhaal, and since the events are already going off the original rails, I think It's an opportunity to modify the plot.

The changes so far:

1 The player met Mellisane way ahead of time ( after a wildly off-target planeshift landed her in Tethyr ) so she already had some basic information about the Five, and got some extra gossip while handling the Irenicus plot.

2 As the result, she didn't go to visit the Oracle - she went directly to Saradush, flying in as a bird and meeting Mellisane there.

3 Illasera doesn't know where to look for the heroes, but she knows quite a lot about them - instead of trying to scry and fry them, she'll attack the Trademeet druid circle, and wait in ambush there.

4 The player knows the names of four out of the Five - she doesn't know about Bhaltazar. Rather than handling Gromnir, she intends to go solve the "Yaga Shura's heart" quest first. However, after hearing how Mellisane's cooperation with Gromnir ended up trapping everyone in Saradush, and how his madness now endangers everyone, she suspects him of being the fifth of the Five.

5 She knows the most basic information about Sendai and Abazigal (Sendai's forces intercepted one of the armies intending to intervene in Saradush, striking them from below)

So, what I need is...

Plot-wise:

1 Some way to deal with Gromnir - he's an interesting NPC, but if the events unfold as they do now, he'll be killed by Yaga Shura, without the party ever meeting him. (and that also means one fewer pocket plane test, which would be a pity)

On the flip side, if they do meet him, his ramblings would most likely blow Mellisane's cover - which isn't bad in itself - nothing wrong with shifting the events further - but it is something Mellisane needs to plan for. What do you think she'd do?

2 Some ways to involve Abazigal and Sendai more - so far I think Sendai will make things urgent for the player by narrowly failing to wish her into her fortress, but the more the better - they didn't really do much beyond being dungeon bosses in the game.

Mechanics-wise:

1 What to do with Nyalee? (Yaga Shura's foster mother, responsible for his immortality) The wiki describes her as a priestess of Bhaal, and her stat block says she's supposed to be a druid - but with Bhaal being a dead god, neither would give her any power (also, are there even druids of Bhaal?) - still I'd like to keep the nature theme, as I already had her described to the player as "not exactly a druid"

2 I could use some advice for Illaseera - I'm making her an epic ranger, with her bhaalspawn powers tainting her arrows with vile damage, and giving her some abilities like greater dimension door, allowing her to zip around the battlefield, while full attacking each turn.

Now I need her to plan an ambush in the druid circle - so enough preparation to make up for the fact that she's trying to ambush an 18th level pissed off druid, who will probably scout in wild shape and then drop in with a swarm of elementals, and an oversized party.

An assassination themed party for her would be a plus. Even better if they can be "assassination themed" without being useless against things immune to critical hits.

Any advice is welcome :)

Braininthejar2
2016-09-21, 03:38 PM
Nopony?

I can try do this on my own, but your last input improved the overall gaming experience

Pronounceable
2016-09-21, 05:02 PM
This is neat. I approve of this.

Your concerns are pretty valid, in that ToB plot sucks owlbear balls. Sendai, Abazigal and by extension Balthazar are completely worthless for story, the plot can jump right to final battle at Throne after defeating Yaga Shura and absolutely nothing of narrative worth would've been lost.

Anyway. Onwards.

I'm glad that that crappy solar didn't get to infodump over there like a dumb deus ex bottocks as normal. You really want to drop her blue ass out of your game. She's the worst offender in ToB plotting by far. Send the PC to the Throne via some Bhaalist portal ritual uncovered after some sidequest (or just loot a thingy from Illasera's goons if you don't feel like creating brand new quests). Use some old low ranking servant of Bhaal eager to help the up and coming lord of murder (possibly just Cespenar if you don't feel like making someone new) at the pocket plane for info. Might need some tweaking on specifics of posttrial infodumps but anything's worth it to get rid of smurfette and her terribad railways. Smurfette is the ****ing worst. Even douchenozzle Cyric dropping in to convince you to give up on ascending with with some well timed info would've been more sensible and logical than the goddamn smurfette from above.

Illasera always seems more of a harrier than an ambush predator. Her teleporty archer bossfight paints her more of a horseback archer minus horseback than a boomheadshot sniper (unless that was the challenge mod and I've forgotten the regular Illasera). She should go for a sudden strike on open plains instead of crouching in some bushes to wait for a chance, especially in an epic magic world of teleporting strike teams, special especially if she knows much about PC. Give her a large band of imp invisible archers with wands of chaff summoning and she's ready to Touhou.
Also, she shouldn't just go down like a punk in one fight. These Bhaalspawn are supposed to be at levels Sarevok failed to reach, they're not mooks to be mowed. Illasera should escape at least a couple times and be a recurring pain in the ass before she gets cornered and killed. She doesn't do that in ToB because ToB sucks.

For Gromnir, you can go all in on deception and recruit Melissan. That should keep PC at Saradush to work diplomancy on Gromnir problem with her help, make her appear more unsuspicious so her big "reveal" will be an actual reveal (another thing ToB utterly fails at). It's cool if PC kills G thinking him a Fiver. Also, by all logic and reason G should have been one of the Five. He contributes to the MasterPlan far more than the last 3 chucklefrags do combined. If PC just goes off, Gromnir can escape Saradush during battle. There's no reason he must go down with the ship if you really want PC to meet him instead of an offscreen death. He might even offer to join up against Fivers.

You can simply make Nyalee a druid and/or cleric and not bother with detailed questions. Or you can go off the weird end, make her half plant fire giantess/fey princess/fiendish dryad/awakened tree/sentient fungal infection monster/all of the above with whatever naturish powers you like. I'd suggest the second, Bhaal was really not very picky.

The problem with Sendai and Abazigal is that they do absolutely nothing. They sit on their couches watching tv until their place gets raided, then they die. You need to invent their whole deal because ToB has nothing for you. Your best bet is to have them plotting against the others and try to rope PC into helping them. You can have Sendai (as A is unlikely to manage it) break into pocket plane on her own and do unto others before it's done unto her, possibly as a challenge replacement. Whatever you do, get them off their ass and participate in the main plot. Neither Sarevok nor Irenicus sat on their bum waiting to get rekt.

Also, Sendai is a cleric/wizard with magical clones of herself some of whom should by all rights be able to cast Project Image/Simulacrum. That's a 3e styled Gatecheese waiting to happen with epic cleric/wizards instead of solars. Even without chainprojecting, Sendai would be able to pull off every cheesy abusive spell combo and dirty contingency trick in the DnD book. Your PC is toast if you leave Sendai as 30/30 cleric/wizard (or equivalent) and play as smart as she should be, so you should probably nerf her.

Khaiel
2016-09-22, 03:21 AM
Just logged to say that in 3.5, in Lost Empires of Faerun, there's this feat called Servant of the Lost Gods or whatever that allows you to be a cleric of a dead god (Bhaal is one of the dead gods given as an example. Can't remember his domains, though.)

Braininthejar2
2016-09-22, 04:21 AM
Khaiel: Yes. I had it suggested to me when I posted the Nyalee problem in the 3.5 subforum :smallbiggrin:

Pronounceable:

That's a lot to talk about, and just the kind of input I'd been hoping for.


1 Situation update.

- The player has delivered some food to Saradush, and used the opportunity to try to read Mellisan's mind - she only learned that it was shielded, but she has her noted down as "probably a traitor to one of the factions involved, to be killed when no longer useful, unless future events indicate otherwise"

- She does want to talk to Gromnir, but hasn't taken action towards that yet.

- She's sent the party drow to Underdark to gather info about Sendai - a mixed army of monsters serving a powerful drow priestess who openly does not worship Lolth must have created some buzz underground.

- She intends to meet Nyalee, and learn more about Yaga Shura's immortality, but hasn't yet decided if she wants to bother - she might decide to bypass the whole problem by not trying to kill his body at all, but hit his mind, sweeping the siege camp with a tsunami to clear the guards, and then having the party spam him with magic until something gets past his saves and makes him a vegetable.

2 The Five's power levels.

At what levels do you think I should put them? The party is level 18 currently. (oversized, due to my love of RPing interesting NPCs, and the player's insistance on recruiting useful ones. - they aren't all optimised, but pack a lot of punch through simple action economy)

Irenicus was 25.

3 the Solar and the pocket plane.

The Pocket Plane wouldn't require any research to get into, nor is it dependent on the Solar - it is an extension of the player's divine power designed to test her, so she'll be sucked in the moment she slays one of her more powerful siblings.

Still, I hesitate to cut the solar out entirely - her part in the tests is asking some questions that the pocket plane itself would sound weird asking - and I don't want to get rid of those, because that's RP content, little as there was of it. Beside that, the solar's main role is to tell the party that the gods are staying out of this one.

(by the way, I found a way to make Elminster actually useful - he was busy saving the world elsewhere, but found the time to intervene to persuade the Cowled Wizards to get off the party's back after they basically started a war over Imoen - the player decided that taking sides in the guilds' war is a waste of time, and instead started hunting cowled wizards and having Viconia interrogate the corpses until she found out about Brynnlaw - which had an unfortunate effect of causing an astral projected cowled archmage to keep trying to scry and fry them.)

4 Gromnir: I can't really see him allying with anyone now - escape he could, but where to? Any interesting location that could serve as his last stand better that the throne room did?

5 Illasera: I like the idea of her being a recurring villain (and the player will hunt her down with a vengeance for messing with the druids - messing with her friends is exactly the thing to piss her off), but that creates a problem with her henchmen - high level adventurers don't grow on trees, so she'd have problems replenishing her forces. That means she'd be a joke on the next meeting, unless she can evacuate her team too (unlikely, as she won't retreat until they start dying) She could hold some in reserve of course... but why would she not use her best when facing the most powerful bhaalspawn outside of the Five?

(and yes, archer Illasera is from Ascension mod - in the vanilla game, she was a sorceress and seriously a joke)

6 Balthazar: I expect the player to recognize him for a bhaalspawn the moment they meet. I think I can use him to confuse the player as of Mellisan's allegiance. I also had a creative vision of the party fighting alongside him as one of the others sends a bunch of demons to attack the monastery - the idea of watching a guy dismantle a glabrezu with his bare hands is just too cool to pass up.

I'd welcome more ideas from him.

7 Abazigal: First, rather than a dragon, I'd make him a half-dragon who goes full dragon as part of his bhaalspawn power. He'd still be the oldest of the Bhaalspawn, but not a 1000 years older, which caused some problems. (why would Bhaal create children that would already be powerful at the time they needed to be sacrificed? perhaps he needed very specific bodies to put more important aspects of his essence in?) by the same token that would make Draconis a dragonblooded sorcerer.

The most direct way to have Abazigal do something would be for his dragons to burn Saradush from the air, just when the player thinks she can break the siege all on her own (I'm thinking she actually might, druid OP :smallcool: ) . Also, I told the player that Abazigal's power is to command dragons - I'm thinking of putting some enslaved metallic dragons on his force, to make him more villanous, and to provide the extra challenge in the form of enemies that shouldn't be hurt.

8 Sendai: When the player asked what is known about her, I said that her army seemed like a mix of monsters rather than a drow army, so perhaps her power is versatility, - the player immediately decided she's probably the most dangerous of the Five, and I'm inclined to go that way. - her power is "many faces of god", allowing her to mess with her own build, and pull the simulacra thing for the final battle. - in the meantime, she'll be attacking from the shadows, sacrificing slaves to skip the XP costs as she sends powerful planar creatures after the party (I like the idea of invading the Pocket Plane too...)

The player gathering information on her in Underdark made me think - she's a very powerful heretic - why didn't the drow make any moves against her? And how could they be persuaded to? With a good enough answer to these questions, I could pull a second Ust Natha worth of scheming out of this sub plot.

9 Throne of Bhaal: While getting to the Pocket Plane is automatic, getting to Mellisan's throne might no be - that's another complication we could use to extend the plot.

Khaiel
2016-09-22, 06:15 AM
Elminster being actually useful? That must be some kind of heresy.

I would leave the Solar there. I played Throne of Baal a long time ago, so my memory is foggy about that one, but I guess it would be normal to have it there, it would make for a good way to see if the player is worthy of becoming a God, good or evil. You know, because after the Time of Troubles Ao is kind of a b*tch about that.

If you do cut her out, one possible answer would be to have Sarevok take over her role in the questions, having him have to earn his new life or something like that.

PS: Your player is a very smart guy/gal. Neither Renal Blooscalp (And his boss, Rhinnom Dannihyr, even more so) nor Bodhi are people one would usually trust, so it seems like a good idea to find your own way to rescue Imoen.

Braininthejar2
2016-09-22, 10:11 AM
PS: Your player is a very smart guy/gal. Neither Renal Blooscalp (And his boss, Rhinnom Dannihyr, even more so) nor Bodhi are people one would usually trust, so it seems like a good idea to find your own way to rescue Imoen.

She has her moments. She tends to make a lot of plans, then put 1/3 of them into action, and sometimes they work wonders. But she also makes mistakes.

Her most glaring one was commisioning a succubus through Viconia, (needed for some covert work) and then, leaving it in the human world for doing a good job - and not even as part of negotiated payment, but on a whim - she seemed to focus on the wrong word in "charismatic, socially adjusted demon"

The Master Wraith will have a field day with that, potentially costing her Minsc and Airie.

Pronounceable
2016-09-22, 12:37 PM
First off, see this (http://www.gamejag.net/forum/index.php?/topic/19582-requiem-for-a-game/). It's long and rough but has stuff you should find interesting, especially about Fivers.

Then do it. Cut out smurfette. She sucks and blows simultaneously despite it being physically impossible. Use Sarevok/Imoen/Caspenar/some leftover Bhaal servant for the posttrial RP chattery. Hell, throw Cyric in checking to see what kind of rival he's about to get. There's no need to explain how or why gods are sitting this out (not that the given "explanation" is worth a crap). Which is doubly crap btw, the whole thing of Forgotten Realms is being a Soapnarok, there's no way gods would just be chilling. That only happened because ToB was a computer program that couldn't possibly handle all the moving parts divine meddling would cause, a flaw not shared by a human DM. At the maximum least Cyric, Kelemvor and Mystra should've meddled in the situation. At most, it'd be a giant cluster**** of every single god meddling to either grab some of that Bhaalpie or trash it forever (that'd prolly be too much).
Also if pocket plane was for being a badass Bhaalspawn instead of a smurfette sponsored plotperk, all Fivers would have their own (that'd be cool actually).

If PC does somehow knock out YS, they're still gonna have to lug around a fire giant body until heart is found and he can be killed for reals. Bhaallander rules are clear. It might be amusing to do however.

I'd say all Fivers need to be the max level you'll allow ingame (prolly 30 if 3.5ing), with an even higher final boss (which need not be Amelyssan actually). Why let a scrub into the cool kids club, Five's for the top dogs.

What Gromnir needs to do is to split once siege starts going south and grab YS's heart (unless killed by PC). Then he can be the boss PC faces at Marching Mountains, which would be much better than a random assortment of fire critters. Or if PC is actually serious about breaking the siege, he can join forces and massively derail the regular plot, subduing and capturing unkillable YS. Which would mean Sendai or Abazigal would have to come over to finish the job, getting one of them off the couch. A and an army of dragons seems more appropriate.

Illasera needs to keep her best and brightest for when other Fivers inevitably turn on her. None of them should be dumb enough to think they'll be a big happy family after killing off all others. YS probably keeps his best goons at hand and would lose them in the siegebreak sequence but all the others should be keeping their real aces in their sleeves. Illasera might get more reckless after getting pwned repeatedly and throw all of her strength at PC for rematches. You can even have her surrender once her forces are depleted, she'd certainly be an asset against other Fivers if she thinks they'll now kill her for being weak.

Abazigal is already a half dragon. He's also a giant plothole as an adult half dragon with an adult dragon son a mere 20 years after ToT. You should make some changes. At the very least, Draconis needs to be not his son. Also, Cult of the Dragon. They're begging to be used. And if he does swoop in with a murder of dragons to burn Saradush, he should burn YS's army too. YS has already done his part in the Masterplan, he's not needed anymore.

Sendai definitely was the most powerful as a 40/40 cleric/wizard. That can't really happen in 3.5 (unless you decide to) but she's still the highest caster in campaign so wins DnD by default.

No drow city really has enough firepower to take on something like Sendai, she's got Elemental Princes of Evil chilling out the back. I'm sure Lolth would jump at the chance to mess up a powerful heretic if asked and can bring a massive crusade on S but her price for PC would probably be Viconia and/or a piece of the Bhaalpie. Then again, Lolth might just decide to throw her lot in with Sendai, she's a multiversal goddess not bound to the sphere and inserting a new puppet into the local pantheon would bring her closer to absorbing Toril into Demonweb. It's generally a bad idea to invite Lolth or her flunkies.

Speaking of divine interference, I doubt Tiamat or Bahamut would be very happy with Abazigal enslaving a bunch of their subjects. Or the Three Stooges (Helm-Torm-Tyr) would stand by as Bhaalspawn mess up the place.

Also also if you don't do something more exotic, give Balthazar Ravager transformation (and possibly Slayer summoning). That'd explain why some rando punchy dude is in the cool kids club next to invincible fire giant and DnD winner and dragon army. (Illasera does stand out as lame once you list them like this btw)

Braininthejar2
2016-09-22, 05:25 PM
1 Divine intervention - Gods mostly don't by default - unlike humans with their YOLO attitude, gods can live forever... as long as they don't test their immortality too hard against beings of similar power. So they invent a lot of rules and pacts that forbid them from taking part in conflicts personally. They will still fight through servants and followers, as long as they can convey their will to them - all those auguries are messy and riddle-like, because communicating with mortals, with their limited senses and silly four-dimensional thinking requires a lot of effort from a god - he tells things that should be obvious, but aren't. (It's also easier when talking face to face than when handling thousands of prayers at the same time)

For example, Ciric wants you dead, but he won't lift a finger against you, as that would violate the rules - he'll just have a friendly chat with you in the pocket plane, being all God of Murder, until you subconscious fills the testing chamber with invisible assassins. :smallbiggrin:

2 The pocket plane - There are several possible explanations for why only the player gets one:
- It's a sign of the prophecy singling him out - he gets a 'coccoon of god' because it is his destiny to become one.
- Every bhaalspawn gets some unique powers, and the player got lucky that his set comes with a house.
- It is a part of Bhaal's realm, and works on 'first come, first served' basis - the bhaalspawn have been killing each other for some time, but the player was the first to kill an epic one.
- It is a part of Bhaal's realm, and is the same location where the fight with Irenicus took place - the glitch caused by a bhaalspawn "dying and not dying" made it possible, and it has developed further on its own. That would explain why Sarevok is there.
- any bhaalspawn who gets close enough to the ideal of a god of murder gets one - the player now has a body count that Sarevok needed a war for. That means Sendai might get one too.

3 The Solar - I don't remember ever having any such strong feelings for or against her. Why do you hate her so?

Also, if I'd cut her out, I'd need someone else to show up and declare the player the winner at the end, explaining the options, etcetera.

4 The showdown - The Five turning against each other once Saradush is destroyed is so predictable it becomes cliche. I imagine them as loyal to Bhaal, because Mellisan was the one who got them together, and she would want to control them until she can get rid of them - so she might have purposefully downplayed the option of one of them becoming a god, perhaps even telling them that 'becoming a god' would just be Bhaal reincarnating into one of them, so they're better off bringing him back and becoming his retinue.

Balthazar is an exception, because he's always been the mole within the group - Mellisan has brought him into the Five to destroy them, before the player showed up and became a better option. He pretends to be playing along, sending the players to 'certain death' at the hands of his siblings, while planning to kill whoever is the last one standing. Mellisan pretends to believe him.

Sendai might be another, because she's smart enough to connect the dots. She'll stick to the plan as long as it is viable, but she'll prepare accordingly - even if she can't become a goddess herself (which she'll keep researching), Bhaal might not need more than one steward anyway - and if she is the one who brings him back after his high priestess betrays him, it significantly reduces her risk of being his first meal.

5 Bhaltazar: yes, he's basically a punchy guy, a head of the monastery despite his young age, because of being "enlightened" - I was planning on giving him some extra abilities to augment his fighting style, such as bypassing damage reduction, or switching elements in his attacks, so he can use Desert Wind moves with lightning, or use moves that should be crusader only. I agree that this makes him underwhelming compared to the others - but he'll also be the player's ally for some time, which might give him a surprise round when it will be the most damaging.

6 Age discrepancies - Abazigal seems old, but there have also been bhaalspawn elves. Bhaal knew he'd be crossing Ao by stealing the tablets - that's something you'd be a fool not to prepare decades in advance. (and not siring all the children in one spree might have helped to keep it a secret until the plan was almost ready)

7 Illasera - perhaps she could use some outside force to help her - for example, when the party saved Viconia from the stake, they raided the temple of Beshaba to get her gear back - there have been beshabite assassins popping up for some time since then, but they stopped once the party outlevelled whatever the church had in the area - perhaps it's time for Beshaba's best and meanest to show up?

What do you imagine Illasera's base would be?

8 Drow against Sendai - a typical drow city has a lot of heavy hitters - or know how to get them - they wouldn't survive with illithid and beholders for neighbour otherwise. And a heretic like Sendai would be an insult to all the house mothers just by existing, regardles of whether Lolth herself says anything on the matter. The problem is a typical drow city works at cross purposes, with a lot of its power invested against itself. No house would bleed out its best resources while showing its back to the others. So getting them to attack Sendai would really take getting drow to act together - and that's a task worthy of an epic quest.

9 Yaga Shura - if the player disables him, she won't be looking for the heart. On the contrary - as long as he's alive, his essence doesn't come back to Bhaal's realm. She'll be looking for a way to seal him, either looking for an imprisonment scroll, or coming back to that giant sealing cauldron thingy she found while adventuring in Underdark.

10 Sendai - any idea for how to keep all those wonderful tricks of her working in an antimagic field? The player has been using beholder form a lot since she got shapechange.

J-H
2016-09-23, 03:18 AM
1 Some way to deal with Gromnir - he's an interesting NPC, but if the events unfold as they do now, he'll be killed by Yaga Shura, without the party ever meeting him. (and that also means one fewer pocket plane test, which would be a pity)

On the flip side, if they do meet him, his ramblings would most likely blow Mellisane's cover - which isn't bad in itself - nothing wrong with shifting the events further - but it is something Mellisane needs to plan for. What do you think she'd do?

The Siege of Saradush moves at the speed of plot. You can always have the Fire Giants be less successful, perhaps with a Tethyrian army attacking the siege camp and weaken them.

If Yaga-Shura is busy, Gromnir and his goon squad (2 mages, etc) could try to kill their way through enemy lines to escape. If that's impractical, Gromnir could also end up being captured and imprisoned for Yaga-Shura to personally kill.

Melissan should pick up an amulet that gives her a false aura of good when detect alignment is used. She might also have letters of endorsement or authority given to her by the Tethyrian government (regional governors, etc.), picked up as part of her campaign to "help."



2 Some ways to involve Abazigal and Sendai more - so far I think Sendai will make things urgent for the player by narrowly failing to wish her into her fortress, but the more the better - they didn't really do much beyond being dungeon bosses in the game.
A smart dragon does not wait for a foe to come into its cave. It chooses a battlefield on the path to its home, prepares it with traps, summons, and minions, and then attacks the enemy when they are traveling. Abazigal and Draconis in 3.5 will have flight speeds of 180' plus with Haste. With Flyby attack they can make hit-and-run attacks with breath weapons and claws. The most effective tactic is going to be to use Improved Grab to attack someone, grab/grapple that person, fly off with him or her, and then chow down solo (or go really high and drop him/her). He has the geased dragon, so the group is fighting 3 dragons and the wyverns and the minions at once.

Sendai has a bunch of disguises and minion types. She should be sending out people disguised as CHARNAME to frame CHARNAME. This might tie in well with the Tethyrian Oasis.



1 What to do with Nyalee? (Yaga Shura's foster mother, responsible for his immortality) The wiki describes her as a priestess of Bhaal, and her stat block says she's supposed to be a druid - but with Bhaal being a dead god, neither would give her any power (also, are there even druids of Bhaal?) - still I'd like to keep the nature theme, as I already had her described to the player as "not exactly a druid"
Multiclass cleric/druid. Clerics can get spells from an ideal. Also, boost the bhaal skeletons in her temple substantially.


2 I could use some advice for Illaseera - I'm making her an epic ranger, with her bhaalspawn powers tainting her arrows with vile damage, and giving her some abilities like greater dimension door, allowing her to zip around the battlefield, while full attacking each turn.

Now I need her to plan an ambush in the druid circle - so enough preparation to make up for the fact that she's trying to ambush an 18th level pissed off druid, who will probably scout in wild shape and then drop in with a swarm of elementals, and an oversized party.

An assassination themed party for her would be a plus. Even better if they can be "assassination themed" without being useless against things immune to critical hits.
Have you considered Psychic Warrior? Hustle lets her take an extra move action each turn, and there are a few good buffs. Using Extra Power, pick up things from CPsi like "Damp Power" (You disintegrate me? Damp Power, your 40d6 is 40d1s). Swordsage is also a good idea; Shadow Hand has some very thematic abilities, and there's nothing wrong with starting archery and transitioning to melee. There are some feats or skill tricks (acrobatic backstab) that will let her get sneak attacks in even when she's facing someone in a duel.

Banishment or Unholy word for the elementals. Her party should all start with Greater Invisibility, or with Blinking. Any rogues can take the Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape) and do 1/2 their sneak attack damage to immune foes (including those with heavy fort) as long as they are flanking. Heavy poison use. Flight negates the earth & fire elementals.



- She intends to meet Nyalee, and learn more about Yaga Shura's immortality, but hasn't yet decided if she wants to bother - she might decide to bypass the whole problem by not trying to kill his body at all, but hit his mind, sweeping the siege camp with a tsunami to clear the guards, and then having the party spam him with magic until something gets past his saves and makes him a vegetable.

Decerebrate or something like that? Physical immortality will result in the brain healing itself. Unless she's got Soul Jar or something similar, I doubt it'll be a useful approach.



2 The Five's power levels.

At what levels do you think I should put them? The party is level 18 currently. (oversized, due to my love of RPing interesting NPCs, and the player's insistance on recruiting useful ones. - they aren't all optimised, but pack a lot of punch through simple action economy)

Irenicus was 25.
These are army-leading, city-crushing demigods. Level 25 to 30, with substantial boosts to their saves and HP from the Bhaal essence. More HD for Abazigal since he's a high level (older) dragon.


3 the Solar and the pocket plane.

The Pocket Plane wouldn't require any research to get into, nor is it dependent on the Solar - it is an extension of the player's divine power designed to test her, so she'll be sucked in the moment she slays one of her more powerful siblings.

Still, I hesitate to cut the solar out entirely - her part in the tests is asking some questions that the pocket plane itself would sound weird asking - and I don't want to get rid of those, because that's RP content, little as there was of it. Beside that, the solar's main role is to tell the party that the gods are staying out of this one.

(by the way, I found a way to make Elminster actually useful - he was busy saving the world elsewhere, but found the time to intervene to persuade the Cowled Wizards to get off the party's back after they basically started a war over Imoen - the player decided that taking sides in the guilds' war is a waste of time, and instead started hunting cowled wizards and having Viconia interrogate the corpses until she found out about Brynnlaw - which had an unfortunate effect of causing an astral projected cowled archmage to keep trying to scry and fry them.)
Yeah, keep the pocket plane. The mirror party battle will be a lot of fun!


4 Gromnir: I can't really see him allying with anyone now - escape he could, but where to? Any interesting location that could serve as his last stand better that the throne room did?
A boat or barge floating down the river away from Saradush, partly on fire, with some damaged areas that will collapse if too many people stand on them. It's a chance to do something different.


5 Illasera: I like the idea of her being a recurring villain (and the player will hunt her down with a vengeance for messing with the druids - messing with her friends is exactly the thing to piss her off), but that creates a problem with her henchmen - high level adventurers don't grow on trees, so she'd have problems replenishing her forces. That means she'd be a joke on the next meeting, unless she can evacuate her team too (unlikely, as she won't retreat until they start dying) She could hold some in reserve of course... but why would she not use her best when facing the most powerful bhaalspawn outside of the Five?

(and yes, archer Illasera is from Ascension mod - in the vanilla game, she was a sorceress and seriously a joke)
A jar of fingernail clippings and support from someone who can cast Resurrection. Her team can try different tactics and spells each time, but they will not have their 'unique gear' at subsequent battles.


6 Balthazar: I expect the player to recognize him for a bhaalspawn the moment they meet. I think I can use him to confuse the player as of Mellisan's allegiance. I also had a creative vision of the party fighting alongside him as one of the others sends a bunch of demons to attack the monastery - the idea of watching a guy dismantle a glabrezu with his bare hands is just too cool to pass up.

I'd welcome more ideas from him.
He is underused. I think your player may be the best one to direct this.




8 Sendai: When the player asked what is known about her, I said that her army seemed like a mix of monsters rather than a drow army, so perhaps her power is versatility, - the player immediately decided she's probably the most dangerous of the Five, and I'm inclined to go that way. - her power is "many faces of god", allowing her to mess with her own build, and pull the simulacra thing for the final battle. - in the meantime, she'll be attacking from the shadows, sacrificing slaves to skip the XP costs as she sends powerful planar creatures after the party (I like the idea of invading the Pocket Plane too...)

The player gathering information on her in Underdark made me think - she's a very powerful heretic - why didn't the drow make any moves against her? And how could they be persuaded to? With a good enough answer to these questions, I could pull a second Ust Natha worth of scheming out of this sub plot.
Sounds good! I believe Lolth is staying out of this, as is everyone else, on pain of Ao's boot. She doesn't have many drow followers because the drow aren't stupid. If the drow invade, perhaps she can counter with more mind flayers? I'm not sure how her not following Lolth works with her having all the spiders. I would bring in some additional Underdark creatures, like purple worms, here.


9 Throne of Bhaal: While getting to the Pocket Plane is automatic, getting to Mellisan's throne might no be - that's another complication we could use to extend the plot.
This could be a side trip to Sigil, or a visit to Candlekeep, or Bhaal's old main Grand Temple (wherever that is).


2 The pocket plane - There are several possible explanations for why only the player gets one:
- It's a sign of the prophecy singling him out - he gets a 'coccoon of god' because it is his destiny to become one.
- Every bhaalspawn gets some unique powers, and the player got lucky that his set comes with a house.
- It is a part of Bhaal's realm, and works on 'first come, first served' basis - the bhaalspawn have been killing each other for some time, but the player was the first to kill an epic one.
- It is a part of Bhaal's realm, and is the same location where the fight with Irenicus took place - the glitch caused by a bhaalspawn "dying and not dying" made it possible, and it has developed further on its own. That would explain why Sarevok is there.
- any bhaalspawn who gets close enough to the ideal of a god of murder gets one - the player now has a body count that Sarevok needed a war for. That means Sendai might get one too.
I believe that this is hinted at in the game.


4 The showdown - The Five turning against each other once Saradush is destroyed is so predictable it becomes cliche. I imagine them as loyal to Bhaal, because Mellisan was the one who got them together, and she would want to control them until she can get rid of them - so she might have purposefully downplayed the option of one of them becoming a god, perhaps even telling them that 'becoming a god' would just be Bhaal reincarnating into one of them, so they're better off bringing him back and becoming his retinue.
Yaga-Shura's spirit says that they were planning to become the 5 right hands of the resurrected Bhaal.


Sendai might be another, because she's smart enough to connect the dots. She'll stick to the plan as long as it is viable, but she'll prepare accordingly - even if she can't become a goddess herself (which she'll keep researching), Bhaal might not need more than one steward anyway - and if she is the one who brings him back after his high priestess betrays him, it significantly reduces her risk of being his first meal.
Yeah, I think she'll be the highest-level spellcasting foe. Of the Five, she really should be one of the top 2 threats along with Abazigal.


5 Bhaltazar: yes, he's basically a punchy guy, a head of the monastery despite his young age, because of being "enlightened" - I was planning on giving him some extra abilities to augment his fighting style, such as bypassing damage reduction, or switching elements in his attacks, so he can use Desert Wind moves with lightning, or use moves that should be crusader only. I agree that this makes him underwhelming compared to the others - but he'll also be the player's ally for some time, which might give him a surprise round when it will be the most damaging.
Unarmed Swordsage with feats to boost his punching damage (improved natural weapon, etc). Have him take Master of Nine in Epic, where he can get 9ths from EVERY discipline. That gives him 10 rounds of being in two stances at once, and the ability to use two boosts and one standard maneuver per round. Consider making a couple of his allies gishes (Jade Phoenix Mage? Psionic Fist?) and having a couple of them take the Mage Slayer line from Complete Arcane.


6 Age discrepancies - Abazigal seems old, but there have also been bhaalspawn elves. Bhaal knew he'd be crossing Ao by stealing the tablets - that's something you'd be a fool not to prepare decades in advance. (and not siring all the children in one spree might have helped to keep it a secret until the plan was almost ready)
Divine blood means dragons age faster.



What do you imagine Illasera's base would be?
Plot hook: The Night Knives are involved.



10 Sendai - any idea for how to keep all those wonderful tricks of her working in an antimagic field? The player has been using beholder form a lot since she got shapechange.
Epic spells often function in an AMF. Consider having her counter with Disjunction and temporarily disabling ALL of the party's items and spells for 1d4 rounds as a result.

Braininthejar2
2016-09-23, 03:23 AM
New idea - Melissan puts herself out of the picture by faking her death - she sends a body double (lots of ways to do it) that goads Gromnir into killing her - this way she's free to pull the strings from the shadows, while Gromnir will meet the party over her cooling corpse - this way he can ramble all he wants, and they'll still kill him.

(his death will trigger the Pocket Plane to activate - this way I can have Illasera be a recurring villain without delaying the pocket plane sequences)

Braininthejar2
2016-09-23, 03:34 AM
Consider making a couple of his allies gishes (Jade Phoenix Mage? Psionic Fist?) and having a couple of them take the Mage Slayer line from Complete Arcane.

This is a problem... a logistical one. At this level there is a ton of options to test, but that means each boss encounters takes ages to prepare - and then the player opens with frostfell, and half of the enemies turn into popsickles :smallsigh:

Pronounceable
2016-09-23, 09:02 AM
Wall of quotes.


unlike humans with their YOLO attitude, gods can live forever
Toril gods are yolo incarnate. Just ask previous Mystra. Or Bane-Bhaal-Mykrul. Or Cyric. While those usually get natural selected, Soapnarok is definitely a thing on FR (see: Time of Troubles, Spellplague, whatever the last reboot is named [sundering?]).
But yes, Cyric just talks **** until PC starts imagining Cyrisian Assassins. Meanwhile guys like Helm or Ilmater should've been talking to some dudes with armies in and around Tethyr about that siege thing.


Every bhaalspawn gets some unique powers, and the player got lucky that his set comes with a house.
Nice. What does Imoen get?

the player was the first to kill an epic one
Too gamey.

the glitch caused by a bhaalspawn "dying and not dying" made it possible
Nicer.

any bhaalspawn who gets close enough to the ideal of a god of murder gets one
Any DnD character above 20 is a god of murdering things and taking their stuff. Not distinctive enough.


Why do you hate her so?
She's a deus ex bottocks with no personality. While personality isn't really a big thing in general BG npcs, if someone only exists to railroad and infodump at you she'd better be entertaining at it. Smurfette is entirely replacable with a signpost and has equal charm. She's also completely lolrandom and has zero relation to Bhaalspawn affairs. Cyric/Sarevok/Imoen/old Bhaal priest/friggin Cespenar in her place would've been better because those dudes at least have reason to care about the story. Smurfette was just told to come spout plot at us and is doing so. A disembodied cutscene narrator would've been the same.


The Five turning against each other once Saradush is destroyed is so predictable it becomes cliche.
What's clicheer is the evil high cleric betraying the evil god for the evulz. You should have her be the loyal servant while the heirs are trying to grab the throne. That's slightly less predictable. Balthy can still be the guy planning to off the others for goodness, he doesn't need Melissan for that.


Abazigal seems old, but there have also been bhaalspawn elves
20 year old dragon is still an order of magnitude sillier than elf. 20 year old dragon with grown offspring is far too dumb to contemplate. Abazigal was made long ago is the only logical explanation except that's fanwanking.
Either way, A is canonically a half (not like "canon" matters at this point). Make Draconis his stepdad/grandpa/stepsibling/uncle/guardian/mom/bff/gay partner/anythingnotoffspring and things are a whole lot more palatable.


Illasera
Give her Zhents. It's the goto badguy group of Faerun and you can put some sort of alliance/dalliance with Iyachtu Xvim for Illasera (they do serve Xvim at this time, innit?). That way she can have something going for her against the much better endowed Fivers. You can even throw in Xzar and Monty if you're feeling cute.


antimagic field?
Dispel that shapechange with that other Sendai over there. There are more Sendais than 9th level slots.


Melissan ... faking her death
Old hat and predictable, especially if Gromnir starts ranting right afterwards. Melissan would have to become a beloved npc first, build up trust, then be killed by someone who won't try to out her immediately. Then again, longtime supporting minor character turning out to be the final baddie isn't anything fresh either. It's a toss up.

Braininthejar2
2016-09-23, 11:16 AM
1 What Imoen would get is a very good question actually. The only thing I gave her so far was flavor - she took some levels in unseen seer and got speak with dead as her extra divination.

2 Not for the evulz, for power - unlike the Five she has been given direct access to Bhaal's power pool, and the knowledge of how to use it.

3 Playing dead is cliche in general... but I haven't used it on this player yet, so it might catch her off guard.

4 I was thinking of what to do with Illasera, and then remembered what levels we're playing on. She could have a wizard (or bhalspawn SLA) with Astral Projection - then she can keep coming back with the same mooks over and over. But that means I really need a good hideout idea for her (and some clues for the PC to find it)