Alternative Grappling Rules.

[ekarney]

Now I'm not sure if this is a common sentiment or not but the current 3.5 rules on grappling seem a little convoluted and awkward. Grappling isn't exactly a regular occurrence in the campaign I'm running so that might be why I'm not a fan, but every time it has come up both myself and my players have the following discussion:

Me: "So he goes to, ah damn, what are the grappling rules again?"
Pl: "Ah, roll grapple?"
Me: "Yeah we got that, roll + total grapple modifiers alright, someones winning"
Pl: "You have the books don't you? Can't you look it up oh wait, you left them in your room again, how about the SRD?"
---This sort of whatnotery continues for a while until we manage to get the rules up, or I grab my books and we decide that the whole grappling thing sucks anyway and improvise---

So, to get to the point are there any alternative grappling rules out there? 1st party or not I'm not really fussed, and the simpler the better. I'd like to see as many options as possible so my group and I can look through them.


tl;dr: My group and I hate current grapple rules and want different ones, please help us.

[Troacctid]

You could use the 4e or 5e rules.

[Firest Kathon]

May I suggest the Pathfinder Combat Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers) rules?
They introduced two additional stats, Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB, BAB + Str + Size) and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD, BAB + Str + Dex + Size). Any combat maneuver (Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm, etc.) is a simple d20+CMB vs. CMD role, just like an attack is a roll against AC.
Starting a Grapple is just a single roll, and if you succeed and want to hold the grapple in subsequent rounds it is just a single roll (with a +5 bonus) again. Same for breaking out of the grapple, a single roll of CMB (or Escape Artist) against CMD to see if you break out or not.

[ace rooster]

They are really not that hard, just badly explained. If you treat it like any other status effect, you realise that it is no more complicated to work with than something like web. It gives you some different options, and takes away others. They are slightly complicated by the fact that many of the options call for an opposed roll, in contrast to just about every other part of the system (don't ask me why). Using the pathfinder system of a fixed CMD makes things slightly less random, but fits better with the system.

I've found it little used, because it tends to lock down PCs pretty hard. Most DMs I've played with simply ignore improved grab, and generally PCs have lower grapple checks than the enemies they are facing, so it is not a good build direction. Other than a few niche situations, (if you can get to a dangerous caster that doesn't threaten) grappling is generally too slow to be safe compared to just stabbing, as it leaves you vulnerable to other enemies.

Do you want grappling to be a larger part of the system? Most people I have played with do not know the grapple system because it doesn't come up very often, rather than it being complicated. If you want to learn it, maybe your DM should suggest you attack a temple of monks, and just spend a while focusing on using/avoiding it.

[Segev]

Warning: This is an off-the-cuff reaction to the comment that it's like any other status effect, and may not at all simplify the problem.

What if grappling were treated like a special ability (e.g. a spell-like ability or the like), with a saving throw and a DC?

And I immediately hit the first problem with it; there's not a good save for it. Fortitude is the most natural, but grappling isn't based on Con; it's based on Str. Could make it a Reflex save, but that both overloads it and makes rogues better at resisting grapples than fighters. Were this 5e, could use a Strength Save, but it isn't.

Hm. How about...

"I use Grapple on him. Reflex save DC (10 + half my BAB + my Str mod). If he succeeds, he wriggles out before I can get a grip. If he fails, he's Grappled."

...no, I think that's still not working well. I just find myself otherwise re-creating the same complex grapple rules.


PF's grapple rules do a little bit of cleaning up of the presentation, and reduce the opening round by one roll. (In 3.5, you had to make a touch attack and the opposed check to establish a hold; in PF, you just have to make an attack roll with your Combat Maneuver Bonus instead of your Attack Bonus, and compare it to their Combat Maneuver Defense instead of their AC.)


Sadly, thus, I don't have any good suggestions for simplifying it further. Maybe build a character that has grappling as a schtick and make yourself a cheat sheet, so that you gain familiarity with it through practice?

[Gnaeus]

May I suggest the Pathfinder Combat Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers) rules?
They introduced two additional stats, Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB, BAB + Str + Size) and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD, BAB + Str + Dex + Size). Any combat maneuver (Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm, etc.) is a simple d20+CMB vs. CMD role, just like an attack is a roll against AC.
Starting a Grapple is just a single roll, and if you succeed and want to hold the grapple in subsequent rounds it is just a single roll (with a +5 bonus) again. Same for breaking out of the grapple, a single roll of CMB (or Escape Artist) against CMD to see if you break out or not.

However, we have found that those rules are really punitive to grapplers. Most things can beat the stuffing out of you while grappled. You need a standard to maintain, so the only way it works for monsters is to do a stupid dance where they attack, grab, wait for next turn, release, attack grab.... Things like squid and Rocs are screwed. Anything that denies a standard ends the grapple. Dedicated grapplers can get feat chains to make it work, but monsters don't have those chains.

[Firest Kathon]

However, we have found that those rules are really punitive to grapplers. Most things can beat the stuffing out of you while grappled.
I agree. They made it easier, but not better nor more usable.

You need a standard to maintain, so the only way it works for monsters is to do a stupid dance where they attack, grab, wait for next turn, release, attack grab....
Yea, it is really not thought out well. I am surprised that this has not been errata'd yet. I think they intended the monsters to maintain the grapple by just holding the opponent as a free action (with the -20 penalty), but RAW that is not possible.

Things like squid and Rocs are screwed.
They can still maintain the grapple and fly/swim away. That seems to work out for me. The giant squid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/squid/giant-squid) even has constrict.

Anything that denies a standard ends the grapple.
I do not have a problem with that.

Dedicated grapplers can get feat chains to make it work, but monsters don't have those chains.
Agreed.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Having played with both sets of rules, I prefer the 3.5 model to pathfinder. But it does need a modfication: "Grapple checks are an unarmed attack roll with special size modifiers...." Make that change and it's a great system. The separate "grapple" modifier which may or may not (depending upon the modifier in question and whether or not you use the FAQ and what date you figured out that the FAQ is as likely to be useless garbage as it is to be helpful) makes the whole system unnecessarily complicated and confusing. You could eliminate the touch attack too if you wanted--it's generally a formality anyway but that might lead to shenanigans with true strike or make it too effective against invisible/hidden creatures.

[Gnaeus]

Yea, it is really not thought out well. I am surprised that this has not been errata'd yet. I think they intended the monsters to maintain the grapple by just holding the opponent as a free action (with the -20 penalty), but RAW that is not possible.

They can still maintain the grapple and fly/swim away. That seems to work out for me. The giant squid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/squid/giant-squid) even has constrict.

Practically it isn't likely either. By slashing the size mod bonii, they made it much less likely that a grappler will succeed in a check against any relevant foe at -20.

Yeah, but the grapple to maintain only maintains A grapple. So the Squid can grab 8 people, but only holds 1. The Roc has to fly down, attack/grab, then sit through a round of pain before taking another standard to grapple/move. And it has the same problems as the squid. It can grapple 2 people, but only maintain to fly off with one.

[ekarney]

Do you want grappling to be a larger part of the system?

Well I'm actually the DM here, we don't want them to be that big of a part, it's just nice to have that as an option every now and again, plus it adds a bit of tactical thought to combat that could otherwise be mundane, as we have a Wu Jen, an Artificer and a Bard so locking down any one of them makes combat a little more tense. Not that I do it a lot, I just like having the option as well as others. I'd just grappling to be a lot more simple in it's whole execution.

[ace rooster]

Well I'm actually the DM here, we don't want them to be that big of a part, it's just nice to have that as an option every now and again, plus it adds a bit of tactical thought to combat that could otherwise be mundane, as we have a Wu Jen, an Artificer and a Bard so locking down any one of them makes combat a little more tense. Not that I do it a lot, I just like having the option as well as others. I'd just grappling to be a lot more simple in it's whole execution.

You should have a pretty good idea of when it is going to come up, so you should be able to have a cheat sheet ready. Treat it like a spell like ability. You wouldn't run a monster with spell like abilities (web, say) and not expect to have to consult the text, so don't run a grappler expecting to remember the grapple rules.

They can basically be summed up as "want to do anything other than stab it with a dagger? roll a grapple check". The only slight complication is that many actions are in place of an attack, and you use iteratives while losing natural attacks. This is particularly confusing for something like a bear, which doesn't usually get iteratives, and due to improved grab does claw damage on a grapple attack (which makes you think natural attack, where a grapple attack is completely different).

There are a few modifiers, such as improved grab and rake, and what makes the system seem complicated is that it only ever seems to come up in situations where a creature replaces it's natural attacks with iteratives, has it's damage modified by improved grab, and gets two additional attacks from rake. This is not exactly standard. Try running some grappling monks, for a more basic example.

Short version: the system is actually pretty simple. It is just that simple examples don't come up very often, and it can be hard to get a grasp of a system if you only meet situations with lots of bells and whistles.