Stealth

[andylatham82]

Hello,

I have a couple of questions about stealth. Let's say a Goblin is hiding and starts an attack on a PC. First we check to see if the player is surprised by doing a Dexterity (Stealth) check for the Goblin and comparing with the Passive Wisdom of the PC.

So let's say that the PC is surprised as we enter into combat. As the Goblin makes its first attack, we do a hit check to see if it manages to strike the PC. At this point, do I include the Goblin's stealth modifier in the check? It makes sense to use it, as the player has been surprised and doesn't know the Goblin is there. However I just wanted to check that this is should be the case as the Goblin has already been given the upper hand by making the player miss a turn through surprise.

If I do have the Goblin use stealth, how exactly do I do that given that the Goblin's stat block just says to use +4 as the modifier for an attack? Do I use the +6 stealth modifier instead?

As a second question, am I right in thinking that if the PC was the one being stealthy with a melee attack, then their hit check would be 1d20 + strength mod + proficiency bonus (assuming they are proficient in stealth). I'm a bit unsure about this as stealth is usually associated with dexterity, not strength. But I'm sure I've read somewhere that you can use a skill modifier with a different ability than it's usually associated with.

Or am I completely wrong and stealth is simply not used with a melee attack other than in determining surprise?

Thanks!

[Rhaegar14]

Or am I completely wrong and stealth is simply not used with a melee attack other than in determining surprise?

That, in both cases. The attack is made using standard rules for weapon attacks. Assassins get automatic advantage against creatures that haven't acted yet, though. I wouldn't be surprised if certain monsters get similar benefits (I'm primarily a player, I don't know the Monster Manual that well).

[andylatham82]

That, in both cases. The attack is made using standard rules for weapon attacks. Assassins get automatic advantage against creatures that haven't acted yet, though. I wouldn't be surprised if certain monsters get similar benefits (I'm primarily a player, I don't know the Monster Manual that well).

Thanks for the response! Ok so stealth isn't used in a melee attack. What about a ranged attack? Such an attack relies on dexterity rather than strength so stealth is better suited.

[Rhaegar14]

Thanks for the response! Ok so stealth isn't used in a melee attack. What about a ranged attack? Such an attack relies on dexterity rather than strength so stealth is better suited.

You always use your attack bonus for a weapon attack. Always always always. The Stealth skill is just a measure of your ability to avoid detection. I actually can't think of a single instance in the entire 5e ruleset that you use a skill bonus for a weapon attack; the closest equivalent is Athletics for grapple and shove attempts, and even then you're not really attacking with a weapon.

[andylatham82]

You always use your attack bonus for a weapon attack. Always always always. The Stealth skill is just a measure of your ability to avoid detection. I actually can't think of a single instance in the entire 5e ruleset that you use a skill bonus for a weapon attack; the closest equivalent is Athletics for grapple and shove attempts, and even then you're not really attacking with a weapon.

So stealth is never used in an actual attack? Only when beginning combat to work out if anyone is surprised?

[lunaticfringe]

Stealth is used to determine if something is surprised. Say an assassin want to shoot the goblin with his shortbow. He rolls a Stealth check. The DM would either compare that to the Goblin's passive perception or if the goblin was alert roll a Perception check & see which is higher. If the Stealth check is higher in either Case the Assassin is Hidden. Advantage on his Bow Shot, he can apply Sneak Attack & the goblin is Surprised he Auto Crits from his Assassination ability.

[Ninja_Prawn]

As has been discussed, Stealth has no bearing on attack or damage. Except...


the Assassin is Hidden. Advantage on his Bow Shot, he can apply Sneak Attack

...you have advantage on attacks if the target can't see you, which makes you more likely to hit. And some characters and monsters get Sneak Attack, which increases their damage. So indirectly, being good at hiding does make you more dangerous.

[lunaticfringe]

So indirectly, being good at hiding does make you more dangerous.

Oh yes! My first 5e game me & my party realized we were all decent at Stealth. It was a goblin genocide.

[andylatham82]

Thanks a lot for the responses guys. Another step closer to understanding the rules.


"Dungeons and Dragons is a simple game really," said a friend of mine. Simple in concept maybe, not when you get into the rules! :smalltongue:

[DivisibleByZero]

This edition is extremely simple compared to older ones.
You used to have to modify the rolls in some manner for a million different things.
Now got almost never modify the rolls. Instead, when a roll would have been modified in some way, that roll instead has advantage or disadvantage.
You roll 2d20, and use either the higher (to emulate advantage) or the lower (to emulate disadvantage).
In this case the goblin had advantage in the attack. Normal +4 to hit, but you roll 2d20,take the higher roll, and add your +4 to that die.

[andylatham82]

that roll instead has advantage or disadvantage.

I've heard how complicated previous versions have been. I obviously have no experience of them but I do like the advantage system's simplicity.

[JackPhoenix]

I've heard how complicated previous versions have been. I obviously have no experience of them but I do like the advantage system's simplicity.

I say it like this: in Pathfinder, my first attack in the game, with level 1 dwarf cleric was against a goblin. Besides the usual +0 from base attack bonus (proficiency in 5e) and +2 from Str (same in 5e), I've got: +2 to hit because I charged the goblin, +1 from Bless, +1 for dwarven racism against goblins, +1 for standing a slightly higher, +1 for Guidance spell and +1 because I had a masterwork weapon. Also, the goblin had AC penalty because he was flat-footed (hasn't acted yet in the battle). All except the first two were temporary modifiers that had to be recalculated with practically every attack (and I've missed anyway, because I rolled a 1)

[tieren]

Do keep in mind as DM you are free to invent goblin assassins with the assassinate ability and populate your world with them.

[Segev]

In general - and as with all generalities, this can be overridden with specific examples - you don't add modifiers from one kind of roll to another kind of roll.

Attack rolls use your attack bonus.
Saving throws use the relevant save bonus.
Ability checks use the relevant ability bonus (plus proficiency, if you've got a proficient applicable skill).

You won't use a skill in an attack roll.

[andylatham82]

In general - and as with all generalities, this can be overridden with specific examples - you don't add modifiers from one kind of roll to another kind of roll.

Attack rolls use your attack bonus.
Saving throws use the relevant save bonus.
Ability checks use the relevant ability bonus (plus proficiency, if you've got a proficient applicable skill).

You won't use a skill in an attack roll.

That's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind, thanks!

[andylatham82]

I say it like this: in Pathfinder, my first attack in the game, with level 1 dwarf cleric was against a goblin. Besides the usual +0 from base attack bonus (proficiency in 5e) and +2 from Str (same in 5e), I've got: +2 to hit because I charged the goblin, +1 from Bless, +1 for dwarven racism against goblins, +1 for standing a slightly higher, +1 for Guidance spell and +1 because I had a masterwork weapon. Also, the goblin had AC penalty because he was flat-footed (hasn't acted yet in the battle). All except the first two were temporary modifiers that had to be recalculated with practically every attack (and I've missed anyway, because I rolled a 1)

Blimey that would put me off the game right from the word go!

[Ruslan]

So stealth is never used in an actual attack? Only when beginning combat to work out if anyone is surprised?

That is correct. You are either surprised or not surprised. The enemy either gets a free attack against you or doesn't. Normally, this ends the role of stealth in combat.


I say it like this: in Pathfinder, my first attack in the game, with level 1 dwarf cleric was against a goblin. Besides the usual +0 from base attack bonus (proficiency in 5e) and +2 from Str (same in 5e), I've got: +2 to hit because I charged the goblin, +1 from Bless, +1 for dwarven racism against goblins, +1 for standing a slightly higher, +1 for Guidance spell and +1 because I had a masterwork weapon. Also, the goblin had AC penalty because he was flat-footed (hasn't acted yet in the battle). All except the first two were temporary modifiers that had to be recalculated with practically every attack (and I've missed anyway, because I rolled a 1)
It could get worse. You could have a Bard in the party providing Inspire Courage for +1 to attacks and damage. Then, you'd have to remember that +1 to attack rolls from Inspire Courage doesn't stack with +1 Bless (because both are Morale bonus), but the +1 to damage still applies.

Later, someone casts Dispel Magic, and Bless and Guidance are cancelled, but Inspire Courage still applies. Also, unbeknownst to you, but known to the DM, the goblin is actually a Drow spy disguised by illusion, so your racial +1 does not apply, even though you think it does.

[R.Shackleford]

In general - and as with all generalities, this can be overridden with specific examples - you don't add modifiers from one kind of roll to another kind of roll.

Attack rolls use your attack bonus.
Saving throws use the relevant save bonus.
Ability checks use the relevant ability bonus (plus proficiency, if you've got a proficient applicable skill).

You won't use a skill in an attack roll.

Not really.

In place of a melee attack you may make an Athletics v Athletics or Acrobatics as an attack in order to grapple or shove (or do other things).

These skill contests are attacks.

[DivisibleByZero]

Not really.

In place of a melee attack you may make an Athletics v Athletics or Acrobatics as an attack in order to grapple or shove (or do other things).

These skill contests are attacks.

Yup.
Those skill contests are attacks.
That is absolutely correct .

What those skill contests are not, however, are attack rolls, which is exactly what he said.

[Malifice]

Hello,

I have a couple of questions about stealth. Let's say a Goblin is hiding and starts an attack on a PC. First we check to see if the player is surprised by doing a Dexterity (Stealth) check for the Goblin and comparing with the Passive Wisdom of the PC.

No.

1) As the PC approaches the hidden Goblin you compare the Stealth check result of the Goblin the the PCs Passive perception score (or you call for a perception check from the PC). Lets assume the PC fails and the goblin is hidden.
2) You the DM decide the (hidden) goblin is going to attack. You call for initiative from everyone before you do anything else.
2) On round one, the PC is surprised and cant take any actions or more on his first turn. After his turn ends, he can take reactions.
3) On the Goblins first turn it leaps out and attacks (with advantage for being hidden).

Round 2 now starts.


So let's say that the PC is surprised as we enter into combat.

Surprised doest work this way. See above.


do I include the Goblin's stealth modifier in the check?

No.


If I do have the Goblin use stealth, how exactly do I do that given that the Goblin's stat block just says to use +4 as the modifier for an attack? Do I use the +6 stealth modifier instead?

Dude, the Stealth modifier is the bonus you add to the d20 and compare to the PCs passive perception score to see if the PC notices the Goblin.


Am I completely wrong

Yes.

[Occasional Sage]

I've heard how complicated previous versions have been. I obviously have no experience of them but I do like the advantage system's simplicity.

It's not just simple, it's elegant. The actual amount of benefit you get from having Advantage (or penalty from Disadvantage) varies with the odds. The more likely you are to succeed or fail in the first place, the less Advantage or Disadvantage mean.

Which makes sense, really. If you've significantly better than the other guy, getting the drop on him is just icing on the cake. If you're much, much worse, having Advantage won't take you far.


Blimey that would put me off the game right from the word go!

There's a reason this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) is funny.

[R.Shackleford]

Yup.
Those skill contests are attacks.
That is absolutely correct .

What those skill contests are not, however, are attack rolls, which is exactly what he said.

You are still making an attack roll with a skill check.

Convoluted and stupid? Yes, but 5e was built on a lot of ideologies that they forgot about half way through.

[Malifice]

Hello,

I have a couple of questions about stealth. Let's say a Goblin is hiding and starts an attack on a PC. First we check to see if the player is surprised by doing a Dexterity (Stealth) check for the Goblin and comparing with the Passive Wisdom of the PC.

So let's say that the PC is surprised as we enter into combat. As the Goblin makes its first attack, we do a hit check to see if it manages to strike the PC. At this point, do I include the Goblin's stealth modifier in the check? It makes sense to use it, as the player has been surprised and doesn't know the Goblin is there. However I just wanted to check that this is should be the case as the Goblin has already been given the upper hand by making the player miss a turn through surprise.

If I do have the Goblin use stealth, how exactly do I do that given that the Goblin's stat block just says to use +4 as the modifier for an attack? Do I use the +6 stealth modifier instead?

As a second question, am I right in thinking that if the PC was the one being stealthy with a melee attack, then their hit check would be 1d20 + strength mod + proficiency bonus (assuming they are proficient in stealth). I'm a bit unsure about this as stealth is usually associated with dexterity, not strength. But I'm sure I've read somewhere that you can use a skill modifier with a different ability than it's usually associated with.

Or am I completely wrong and stealth is simply not used with a melee attack other than in determining surprise?

Thanks!

This is how it works mate:

The PCs (Andy, Brett, and Charlie) are walking along a forest trail. You (the DM) have determined that around 30' up the trail, 3 goblins are hiding in the forest.

Step 1) You make a Stealth check for the Goblins, and compare the result to the passive Perception scores of the Party. (Alternatively you can make opposed stealth vs Perception checks, or add 10 to the Stealth score of the Goblins and have the PCs roll against that as a DC)

Any PC who has a higher Perception result than the Goblins Stealth notices them and is not surprised on round 1. Any PC who has a lower passive result than the Goblins Stealth does not notice them and is surprised on round 1.

Lets assume Andy scores higher with his perception than the goblins Stealth, but Brett and Charlie do not.

You narrate it thus: 'As you are walking down the forest trail, suddenly cries of 'Bree-yark' echo through the forest, and goblins spring out of hiding on the side of the trail to attack! Andy - you just managed to notice a shine of metal from a bush alerting you to the presence of the Goblins - you're not surprised. Brett and Charlie, you failed to spot the Goblins and are surprised on round one.'

Step 2) Now you call for initiative. Before you do anything else. From everyone - the Goblins, the surprised PCs and the unsurprised PCs.

In initiative order, everyone gets a turn on round 1. A surprised PCs cannot move or take any actions on his turn (he sits there like a grinning idiot) nor can he take reactions before his turn starts, however he can take reactions once his turn ends. The Goblins and any PCs that are not Surprised can act normally on thier turns, and can take reactions normally.

Lets assume the initiative results are:

Andy 15
Brett 12
Goblins 10
Charlie 5

Step 3) Resolve actions in initiative order:

Round one begins:

First on round 1 comes Andy (on 15). You turn to him and say 'Andy, noticing a glint of metal from the bushes your lightning reflexes kick into action, allowing you to attack first. What do you want to do?

Andy decides to draw his bow (a free object interaction) and fire a shot off at a Goblin as they close to melee (an action). He rolls, adds his attack bonus, hits and kills a Goblin. He then moves backwards. Luckily he is also a rogue, so he uses his bonus action to dash an additional 30' and moves behind cover. His turn ends.

Next comes Brett (on 12). Brett is surprised (he failed to notice the Goblins) and cannot take any actions or move. He stands there like a grinning idiot on turn 1. His turn now ends.

Now its the two remaning Goblins turn. One closes the distance to Charlie and attacks! It makes a single attack roll (at advantage because he Charlie falied to notice the Goblin). He rolls and hits!

Charlie is a wizard and has the shield spell prepared. He tells the DM that he casts it as a reaction, but the DM reminds him that as he is surprised (and hasnt had his turn yet) he cannot take any reactions. Charlies player throws his dice across the room, and tears up his character sheet as the DM rolls damage. Charlie is reduced to 1 HP.

The second Goblin fires his bow at Brett. Brett also failed to notice the Goblin so this attack roll is also made with advantage. The second goblin also hits with his arrow!

Brett is a Monk. He declares that he will deflect arrows as a reaction (a monk class feature). As Brett is no longer surprised (he acted on 12 before the Goblins) he is free to take reactions now even though he missed his turn earlier, so he succesfully deflects the arrow, and takes no damage.

Finally on round 1 (on initiative count 5), its Charlies turn. He is surprised, cannot take any actions and cannot move. His turn ends with him standing there screaming.

Round two now begins:

Andy (on 15) uises the chaos of battle to slink off into the forest. He uses his movement to sneak away another 30' and then uses a bonus action (thanks to cunning action, his class feature) to take the Hide action. He rolls poorly and scores a 10 - not enough to beat the Goblins passive perception. He is desperate to hide though, so he tries again (using his action). He rolls a 15 this time - more than the Goblins passive perception, so he becomes hidden. His turn ends.

Brett now has his turn. He can finally act. He unloads with a flurry of blows on the Goblin, killing it dead.

Now its the last remaining Goblins turn. He again stabs at Charlie. He is no longer hidden (he attacked last turn) and rolls without advantage... and hits!

Charlie scowls and casts shield. He has had a turn (last round) now, so he can take reactions normally. His spell works, and the goblins stab is deflected.

Now its Charlies turn. He casts shocking grasp on the Goblin, killing it dead. His player then walks over to pick up his dice and starts taping up his character sheet.

Understand how it works now?

[DivisibleByZero]

You are still making an attack roll with a skill check.

No, you aren't.
You are making an attack. You are doing so via a special attack. That special attack is a skill contest. That skill contest takes an ability score roll.
You do not ever make an attack roll with an ability check. You sometimes use an ability check in place of an attack, but in those cases you aren't making an attack roll at all.

Nice try though.

[Ruslan]

You are still making an attack roll with a skill check.
No, you're taking the attack action, but replacing Make An Attack with Make An Athletics Check To Grapple. It's really simple and straightforward.


Convoluted and stupid?Only in your mind. In truth it's actually quite simple.

[R.Shackleford]

No, you're taking the attack action, but replacing Make An Attack with Make An Athletics Check To Grapple. It's really simple and straightforward.

Only in your mind. In truth it's actually quite simple.

You are confusing the idea that I don't understand with the fact that I see the rules are convoluted.

WotC had a mechanical idea and they broke it.

Attacks, Saves, and Ability Checks.

By making a special melee attack be an ability check, they broke their own design rule and made that issue convoluted.

They should have kept things simple and with their ideology that each one is separate instead of mixing attack and ability check.

In combat, to hit with a grapple or shove, they should have just made it an attack roll v AC. AC is already the "combat" difficulty class that represents avoiding, deflecting, and how hard it is to hit you (also, how tough your luck is at not taking a hit!).

Now to remove yourself from an ongoing effect? Strength or Dexterity saving throw.

The DC is set at 8 + Str (Grapple/Shove) + Prof (add prof if prof in Athletics).

Now we don't have this mess of replacing attacks, ability checks as attacks, and we can keep with the ideology of the mechanics set forward originally.

There is no need to make things more convoluted just for the sake of doing so.

Attacks are attacks, ability checks are ability checks, and saving throws are saving throws.

[Willie the Duck]

Good explanation. And good job keeping cool with people pointlessly trying to turn this discussion into a competition.

I agree, they are inserting skill effects into combat effects (whether it's making an attack roll with a skill check or a special attack that is a skill contest is merely semantics). I disagree that it is a poor choice on their part. Things like shoves and grapples have been the bugbear of D&D since nearly the beginning. No one has ever been satisfied with any editions rules on them. This may be an exception to their stated goals, but it is relatively simple, rewards taking athletics (and a perk for STR builds, which otherwise only have "slightly higher damage" to compensate compared to DEX builds, which get to combine their attack and defense attributes), and makes the actions worthwhile while not making them overpowered.