Dragonborn Help

[Keral]

Hi! I'm reworking my Dragonfire adept a bit. I had it prepared some time ago but never got to play it. Now my last character died and it's time to get it into play.


As such, I was considering applying the dragonborn template to it. But I am a bit confused about some things.

My ability scores are:
14-12-16-13-12-14 (Str-Dex-Con-Int-Wis-Cha)

I wanted to play a Kobold, so I'd choose the desert variant to avoid the Con penalty. So I end up with
10-14-16-13-10-14

Which brings me to the first question. I need con and cha so the 16 and 14 there are a must. How bad will it be if I swap Dex and Str? It would net me 16 Dex and 8 Str after the racial adjustment.

Then, the main part where I am having problems.

I had chosen the dragonwrought kobold feat. But undergoing the dragonborn ritual gets me back as an adult, so I'm not benefiting of the +3 wis cha and int. Is it worth keeping it for lowlight, darkvision and sleep and paralysys immunity?

And if so, how does it work?


Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits.


Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

Am I humanoid or not? Are there interesting tricks I can do if I am not humanoid?

To summarize

- Is Str 8 bad for me as a DFA?
- Is it worth keeping the dragonwrought feat for only half the benefits?
- If I keep it, which are my type and subtype?


Thanks!

[Doc_Maynot]

Yeah, in the end you'd lose the biggest benefit of the Dragonwrought feat, being a dragon. Because in the end, the template is applied after your first level feat.

To answer the other DFA based questions. 8 Str certainly will not be your downfall since your primary focus is your breath weapon. And I take it you want to be dragonborn for the Metabreath feats?

[Keral]

Actually no, I wanted the wings XD

The feat option costs me 2 feats for wings.

I could use the invocation, but it can always be dispelled, and that bugs me.

By being dragonborn I get more con and get wings. At the price of a bit of cha, lowering my invocation dc, a bit of int, lowering the skill points I get, and wisdom, lowering my will save by 1. And I no longer am a dragon. Which I am still not sure how it's gonna help me in practical terms.

[Inevitability]

Can't you just say your character got his first level feat (Dragonwrought) 100 or so years ago, became a dragonborn shortly thereafter and then didn't gain any levels until the campaign began?

[Keral]

Wait, what?

I start at level 8, you mean to say that I went dragonborn at level 1 and then aged 100 years before the campaign started?

I can probably spin that

[Darrin]

The feat option costs me 2 feats for wings.


As part of the Dragonborn ritual, you can swap one of your existing feats for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail. And Dragontouched is just sitting there, not doing much... so swap Dragontouched -> Dragon Wings. This puts you one feat away from the same fly speed as the Dragonborn wings. You could then take the Heart or Mind aspect.



And I no longer am a dragon. Which I am still not sure how it's gonna help me in practical terms.

Huh? Becoming Dragonborn doesn't change your type, and you already have the dragonblood subtype three different ways: kobold race, Dragonwrought, and Dragontouched. If you're keeping Dragonwrought, how would you lose the dragon type?

As far as keeping Dragonwrought... if you're not doing something that explicitly requires the dragon type (Rapdistrike, epic feats, etc.), I'm not sure it's worth the bragging rights. There are enough cheap light sources that lowlight/darkvision is somewhat moot, immunity to sleep is pretty situational, and paralysis is a very uncommon condition.

[Keral]

As part of the Dragonborn ritual, you can swap one of your existing feats for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail. And Dragontouched is just sitting there, not doing much... so swap Dragontouched -> Dragon Wings. This puts you one feat away from the same fly speed as the Dragonborn wings. You could then take the Heart or Mind aspect.



Huh? Becoming Dragonborn doesn't change your type, and you already have the dragonblood subtype three different ways: kobold race, Dragonwrought, and Dragontouched. If you're keeping Dragonwrought, how would you lose the dragon type?

As far as keeping Dragonwrought... if you're not doing something that explicitly requires the dragon type (Rapdistrike, epic feats, etc.), I'm not sure it's worth the bragging rights. There are enough cheap light sources that lowlight/darkvision is somewhat moot, immunity to sleep is pretty situational, and paralysis is a very uncommon condition.

I missed the feat swap °-° I'll have to recheck the manual, that seems interesting.

As for the type. I don't know! XD It confuses the hell out of me. I thought that by becoming a dragonborn, and it saying that I am a humanoid I would lose the dragon type. Can I be both humanoid and dragon?

[Darrin]

I missed the feat swap °-° I'll have to recheck the manual, that seems interesting.


It's not in an obvious place. Races of the Dragon, last paragraph on page 10.



As for the type. I don't know! XD It confuses the hell out of me. I thought that by becoming a dragonborn, and it saying that I am a humanoid I would lose the dragon type. Can I be both humanoid and dragon?

Dragonborn of Bahamut is something of an oddball... it's not exactly a template, and I'm not sure why the designers didn't explicitly make it one. It can be applied to any non-evil creature with an Int of at least 3. You don't have to be any particular creature type, so this allows some types that you might not expect or that might not even have any "blood": constructs, undead, elementals, and so forth.

There is some confusion over whether the Dragonborn ritual adds the humanoid type to non-humanoids, or if it just adds the dragonblood subtype to your existing type. The text on page 8 specifies the humanoid type as part of the Dragonborn racial traits, but this appears to be a mistake on the part of the designers, who assumed that all dragonborn would be humanoids. The "Mechanics of Rebirth" sidebar on page 10 is more specific about what happens to your creature type. If the intent was to change your type to humanoid, it would say that. Instead, it says you keep your existing type. So Warforged remain living constructs, Elan remain aberrations, etc. Dragonwrought kobold's type is dragon, so that stays the way it is.

It is possible to count as two creature types at the same time, notably through the Human Heritage feat in Races of Destiny. However, there's a difference between what your type can be when you're targeted by effects, and your actual creature type, which appears to only allow a single type at a time.

[Keral]

Ah, I see it now, sort of.


I can also probably spin the age issue and still get some mental stats. Probably not venerable as I'd be like half a millennium old but maybe old age.

Getting dragonwings and choosing heart for the dragonborn, thus unlocking the metabreath feats without taking power surge.
Thus wings are free and I spend the level 9/12 feat for the improved version. And I save an invocation.

So as far as feats go. Dragonwrought, Ability focus, entangling exhalation, improved dragon wings, plus 3 metabreath feats or something.


Ok now I'm modifying my character sheet but the hard part is, traits.

I lose all racial traits. So no trapmaking and whatnot from the kobold. But I would retain powerful build if I had it. Does that mean that I would keep the slight build from the kobold?


As for type I am Dragon with reptilian and dragonblood subtype? So something that affects humanoids doesn't affect me? I.e. enlarge person? [But it does if I use humanoid shape, right?]


Edit: wait, do I keep my claws? Not that I need them, just to know XD

[Inevitability]

Wait, what?

I start at level 8, you mean to say that I went dragonborn at level 1 and then aged 100 years before the campaign started?

I can probably spin that

I believe that's what I'm saying.

-Kobold is born.
-Kobold gains first class level, takes Dragonwrought.
-Kobold undergoes Rite of Rebirth, is reborn as adult.
-100 years pass. Kobold ages and gains mental ability scores.
-Campaign begins.

[Darrin]

I lose all racial traits. So no trapmaking and whatnot from the kobold. But I would retain powerful build if I had it. Does that mean that I would keep the slight build from the kobold?


By RAW, no, you'd lose Slight Build. However, most DMs would handwave it if you asked.



As for type I am Dragon with reptilian and dragonblood subtype? So something that affects humanoids doesn't affect me? I.e. enlarge person? [But it does if I use humanoid shape, right?]


You are immune to charm person, yes. You still count as a kobold for spells/effects that target only kobolds, but I'm not really sure if there are any effects that target that particular race.

When you get humanoid shape, you can assume the form of any humanoid, but as per the Change Shape rules (MM 306), you retain your original type and subtypes. So you'd still be a dragon for determining spell effects.



Edit: wait, do I keep my claws? Not that I need them, just to know XD

This is not explicitly covered by the rules for Dragonborn. By RAW, yes, you lose your natural attacks because you only keep the specific things that the Mechanics of Rebirth says you keep, and natural weapons are not listed among those things. On the other hand, the rules appear to imply that you keep your physical appearance and capabilities. Your natural movement modes are still present (wings, fins, etc.), so why wouldn't your natural weapons also be present? (Also, aren't claws/bite pretty darned draconic in nature? Why would you lose them?) This is something you'll probably want to ask for a DM ruling, because sticking to RAW sounds kinda stupid in this case.

[Keral]

Awesome! Thanks!

Tho it might have been nice to be able to endure an enlarge person on myself for role playing purposes XD

[Darrin]

Tho it might have been nice to be able to endure an enlarge person on myself for role playing purposes XD

Flaw + Human Heritage. Otherwise, try expansion instead.