Why do people swear by the spell bless

[Sir cryosin]

So I have played a paladin and used bless. And now I'm playing a arcane cleric we just hit lv4 last night. And I have used shield of fate on the halfling barbarian then casting bless. Now I'm not bashing on bless butt I would like to get other people's opinion on the smell people who actually played clerics.

[Oramac]

It's not useful in every situation, as it requires concentration, but it is quite good in many situations.

Bless is particularly effective against enemies with a high AC, or those who use a lot of saving throw based spells.

I prefer to use it in conjunction with someone else casting Bane as well. The two together are a nasty combo.

[DizzyWood]

My party tends to just in without much of a plan so bless has been a huge help. If you are counting on you HP lasting longer than the bad guys every little bit helps.

[odigity]

So I have played a paladin and used bless. And now I'm playing a arcane cleric we just hit lv4 last night. And I have used shield of fate on the halfling barbarian then casting bless. Now I'm not bashing on bless butt I would like to get other people's opinion on the smell people who actually played clerics.

Due to the "Bounded Accuracy" (https://olddungeonmaster.wordpress.com/2014/08/30/bounded-accuracy/) design principle of 5e, small edges make a big difference. It's why 5e no longer has +4 and +5 magical weapons and armor.

1d4 on avg is 2.5. Bless let's you grant a +1d4 (2.5) bonus on all attacks and saves (the most important two of three roll types) for three party members (or more if you using a higher slot) for a whole minute (longer than most encounters) with a measly 1st level spell slot.

That's friggin' amazing. For a divine caster, there are few spells more worthy of your sole concentration slot.

[Sir cryosin]

So at lv 1 we were being attack by 2 worgs and 2 goblins archers. The party was me Arcane cleric, fighter snb, and barbarian. AC in same order 18,18,16. They were having a hard time hitting me and the fighter but was laying into the barbarian. So I casted sof on barbarian. Wham bam thank you ma'am things died. Ever sents then I would throw up SOF on the barbarian to help her ac. I have used bless al lot with my old paladin and I really didn't see much results were it made a difference. We were either over hitting or just rolling so low it didn't make a difference.

[CoggieRagabash]

I recommend that when you cast Bless, you make a point of keeping track of how many misses or failed saves turn into successes because of Bless. In my experience, it's more than you probably expect. My party especially loved to point out every time that humble little spell let them hit or spared them unpleasantness.

Bless requires certain circumstances to be worth casting - there can't be another concentration spell that will serve you better in the current situation, and you need to expect the fight will go on long enough to get enough bang for your buck. But under those conditions it is just a remarkably efficient use of a spell slot and one action that can influence the rest of combat.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Just did some quick calculations, and in the one case I checked (+5 to hit) Bless increased damage output by about half as much as advantage did against middling (i.e. common) ACs. Against high ACs, being Blessed is better than having advantage, obviously.

[Oramac]

So at lv 1 we were being attack by 2 worgs and 2 goblins archers.

Against low AC mooks like these, Bless probably won't be as effective as other options.

Wait until you go against boss types with higher ACs, or even against something like an Animated Armor. Then Bless becomes quite good.

[RulesJD]

So I have played a paladin and used bless. And now I'm playing a arcane cleric we just hit lv4 last night. And I have used shield of fate on the halfling barbarian then casting bless. Now I'm not bashing on bless butt I would like to get other people's opinion on the smell people who actually played clerics.

1. Shield of Faith is almost never the best spell to cast. AC is decent to have at lower levels, but at higher levels, it's not going to add much to survivability due to how many damage effects trigger off of saves or have such a high +to hit that unless you are highly specialized at adding AC, you're going to get hit either way.

2. Bless is the best 1st level spell by FAR. Converting 2-3 hits per encounter alone can account for 20+ damage that would not have otherwise happened. Making a save vs. failing it can prevent far FAR more damage than a simple +2 AC to a single ally.

3. Bless is the best general spell due to the Sharpshooter and GWM feats. Being able to help negate the -5 penalty in exchange for +10 damage is ridiculously useful.

4. The only spell that really bypasses Bless in usefulness is Spirit Guardians. But even then, against high AC/spell casting bosses, Bless is better.

[Tanarii]

I recommend that when you cast Bless, you make a point of keeping track of how many misses or failed saves turn into successes because of Bless. In my experience, it's more than you probably expect.it should be about 5-20% of the time, with an average of 12.5%. :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, one reason people love or hate Bless so much is because of that human thing we all do where we only see the good thing and don't see the bads, or vice versa. For example, pointing out that Bless made a difference, but not all the times it failed to, or vice versa. Or thinking crits are more common / less common than they are.

5-20% bonus to dpr & saves is pretty good for a 1st level spell that uses concentration. But it's fairly balanced by the concentration, better spells rapidly coming online, and most importantly range. Clerics /Paladins are usually lowest inititative, if not dead lowest. HA means dumping to Dex 8 is the standard move. Your allies have often spread out by then, unless you made it an intentional tactic to stay in ranks. (Something modern D&D players almost never do.) it's a great spell, but definitely not the nectar of the gods some people think it is.

[Hudsonian]

It's one of the reasons I think a Paladin Cleric combo is so awesome Cleric holds Spirit Guardians and Paladin holds Bless, the cleric grabs a pole arm and sentinel to keep as many people in SG range as possible. Grab a +1 or 2 con on the cleric and all hail the destroyers of mook armies.

I find that Bless is REALLY nice for avoiding those nasty rolls on Concentration checks.

[Malifice]

So I have played a paladin and used bless. And now I'm playing a arcane cleric we just hit lv4 last night. And I have used shield of fate on the halfling barbarian then casting bless. Now I'm not bashing on bless butt I would like to get other people's opinion on the smell people who actually played clerics.

Sheild of faith is concentration isnt it?

You cant do both.

[Oramac]

I find that Bless is REALLY nice for avoiding those nasty rolls on Concentration checks.

Another valid point. Between Bless and Aura of Protection, it's damn near impossible for a Paladin to fail a concentration save.

[StarStuff]

I think you're onto something by questioning the expectation of Bless.

Most players optimize to-hit in their builds. There are tons of ways to bestow advantage. They even confirmed you can use familiars to give advantage this week.

Your paladin either has Vow of Enmity or Sacred Weapon, most likely. And they have a mount that can Aid or give advantage through Mounted Combat.

And, perhaps more importantly, Bless contributes to the theoretical DPR that's super popular amongst the bubble builders here and elsewhere.

But games really can't be averaged down to a metric like that. It doesn't matter if you do 20 more damage averaged over 100 rounds. You may not see 100 rounds of combat in your entire campaign. What really counts is making sure your Paladin/Fighter hits the legendary creature you're fighting so he can smite/maneuver and Nova. You certainly don't need Bless to ensure that. You need a wizard/druid with conjured pets that Aid.

And if you're fighting a legendary creature, you should be spending your concentration on Spirit Guardians or Bane (to soften up Legendary Resistances).

Drop Bless. Find a more creative way to spend your spell slot and your first action of a fight. Pick up Bless again when you have plenty of spell prepared and want to prepare for niche encounters where you know you're facing a series of saving throws, like a poisoned chest you can't avoid.

[Specter]

It's nice, but up to mid levels. At higher levels, Clerics and Paladins have better stuff to concentrate on. Luckily for you, you can just unprepare it.

[RickAllison]

I think a great part of it is not that Bless is the best 1st level spell for any given situation, but the fact that is a great 1st level spell for almost any given situation. Although its use varies depending on how likely you are to succeed your rolls, the fact remains that it is useful in just about every situation involving whacking other people and/or saving against dangerous effects. That is why people espouse Bless so much, it is the lazy man's God Wizard mode, where they can indirectly promote victory without great amounts of thought (which is why I grabbed it for my god wizard...).

[StarStuff]

Oh, sorry. This is a paladin thread.

Shield of Faith was a brilliant pick-up in comparison.

I don't know how the math works out in a simulator, but if you spend your action to cast Bless. Is the opportunity costs 1-2 attacks that could have nova'd the scary targets before they hit your friends? How am I solving the To-Hit problem by taking away 2 attacks (assuming Extra Attack).

My last 2 cents on the subject (I recently debated someone about this at a table). Bless gives 1d4 to all your friends to keep track of on their saves and attacks. The 1d4 feels insignificant when you roll and it's kind of annoying to track. If you burn a high level slot and hit everyone in your party with it, they may thinks its cool, but a number of your personnel aren't or shouldn't be making attack rolls in battle.

TLDR: Bless isn't a fun spell. If it's worth anything, its for that bonus to saves. You can do better.

[SharkForce]

I think you're onto something by questioning the expectation of Bless.

Most players optimize to-hit in their builds. There are tons of ways to bestow advantage. They even confirmed you can use familiars to give advantage this week.

Your paladin either has Vow of Enmity or Sacred Weapon, most likely. And they have a mount that can Aid or give advantage through Mounted Combat.

And, perhaps more importantly, Bless contributes to the theoretical DPR that's super popular amongst the bubble builders here and elsewhere.

But games really can't be averaged down to a metric like that. It doesn't matter if you do 20 more damage averaged over 100 rounds. You may not see 100 rounds of combat in your entire campaign. What really counts is making sure your Paladin/Fighter hits the legendary creature you're fighting so he can smite/maneuver and Nova. You certainly don't need Bless to ensure that. You need a wizard/druid with conjured pets that Aid.

And if you're fighting a legendary creature, you should be spending your concentration on Spirit Guardians or Bane (to soften up Legendary Resistances).

Drop Bless. Find a more creative way to spend your spell slot and your first action of a fight. Pick up Bless again when you have plenty of spell prepared and want to prepare for niche encounters where you know you're facing a series of saving throws, like a poisoned chest you can't avoid.

uhhh... yeah, gotta disagree with a lot of this.

vengeance paladins seem to be fairly common. devotion paladins are super rare.

mounts can dash, disengage, or dodge. none of those actions give you advantage. you could, theoretically, take mounted combat. on the most MAD and feat-starved class in the game. for something that helps only in certain areas and almost never in some of the most typical types of encounters (like being in a dungeon crawl).

bless is amazing specifically because it DOES help you land those difficult attacks. so actually, having bless really does help with landing your nova. it is, in fact, one of the best spells around for that, especially against high AC targets (which tend to be the most important ones).

bane also allows a save. so no, you aren't going to soften up legendary resistances by casting it. additionally, charisma is a surprisingly common good save amongst powerful enemies (ie the kind that have legendary resistance in the first place), so good luck landing it (not that bane is a bad spell by any means, it just isn't nearly as reliable as bless. since it does something quite similar to bless, only not as reliably, if bane is good, by extension bless is probably even better).

now, if you're fighting something that's pretty trivial, then bless won't do much. the tougher the fight, the more amazing bless gets. if you hit on a 15 because your target has high AC, bless will not help 12.5% of the time on average. it will be a nearly 50% increase in how often you hit. that is huge. and if you're using sharpshooter or great weapon master (the two biggest damage-boosting feats in the game), needing a 15 to hit isn't terribly implausible even into the higher levels.

bless is not just about +X bonus damage over 100 rounds (although if you're calculating over 100 rounds, +20 damage is a hilarious underestimation of what bless will do). yes, sometimes you'll roll really well or really badly. but 5e is practically designed around the idea that most of the time, you will need a number somewhere around the middle values of the d20 to succeed, which means it is entirely possible for bless to make the difference.

even more interesting, it can actually stack with advantage, and mitigate disadvantage. you can only get advantage once. anything more does nothing. advantage + bless improves your odds even more.

bless is an excellent buff spell. the save bonus alone can give it value enough to last through the highest levels of the game, and the attack bonus is just the icing on the cake.

and best of all, it comes out of a level 1 spell slot. so if you're not sure if your help is needed, you can often throw out a bless until you've got a better handle on what the fight needs. if you have to drop it, well, at least it was only a level 1 spell. it may not always be what you need to concentrate on, but it is extremely reliable, and is almost always useful. you might not cast it every fight, but i would say keep it as one of your prepared spells so that you have the option there.

[Malifice]

Bless rocks.

Its the staple spell for Clerics till Spirit Guardians comes online, then its a toss up.

[Shogon]

So I have played a paladin and used bless. And now I'm playing a arcane cleric we just hit lv4 last night. And I have used shield of fate on the halfling barbarian then casting bless. Now I'm not bashing on bless butt I would like to get other people's opinion on the smell people who actually played clerics.

Had a game the other day where 3 level 3 characters found themselves face to face with an umberhulk. I expected certain death until the cleric cast bless and the bard cast bane. 10 turns later we arose victorious. I am certain if not for bless we would not have managed hit against the high AC of the umberhulk sufficiently to achieve victory (same goes for bane keeping us alive). Bless effectively makes the affected characters fight at a 2-8 level advantage on attack rolls, saving throws are just gravy. It's really that good.

[Hudsonian]

Guys, I just realized that Sanctuary was not a concentration spell. This puts a whole new cog into my tank up SG and wade into the melee.

Each round: Attack, cast sanctuary, reposition to catch as many bad guys as possible, AoO has additional chance of not landing OR they might choose to attack an ally of their own.

note: this is a pretty high rate of spell use. And it's a technicality as "Maintaining a Spell through concentration that affects the enemy" is not the same as "Casting " that same spell.

[Oramac]

Had a game the other day where 3 level 3 characters found themselves face to face with an umberhulk. I expected certain death until the cleric cast bless and the bard cast bane. 10 turns later we arose victorious. I am certain if not for bless we would not have managed hit against the high AC of the umberhulk sufficiently to achieve victory (same goes for bane keeping us alive). Bless effectively makes the affected characters fight at a 2-8 level advantage on attack rolls, saving throws are just gravy. It's really that good.

I've had similar experiences with the Bless/Bane combo, though not against an Umberhulk. It really is nasty if you can get Bane to land.

[Saggo]

I don't know how the math works out in a simulator, but if you spend your action to cast Bless. Is the opportunity costs 1-2 attacks that could have nova'd the scary targets before they hit your friends? How am I solving the To-Hit problem by taking away 2 attacks (assuming Extra Attack).

By Bless targeting at least 3 people. It's +2.5 Attack and Save per person.

The only reason it's not as good for Paladins as it is for Clerics is that Paladins have a tendency to get hit more.

[CursedRhubarb]

In my current game my character loves bless, but he is a hill dwarf warlock (because the party had no one with good Cha when I joined and locks are fun) but at level 4 I've only just got up to a +5 to hit for my spells and a save DC of 14. The DM likes to throw guys with 17-18 AC at us which means I need to roll a 14 or 15 to even hit the guys. That +1d4 has been the difference between being able to deal damage and passing on damage and just going in as support and doing crowd control.

[Kish]

Because there isn't a spell called Damn.

[Daishain]

On average, it is a 2.5 point bonus to every attack made by three party mates of your choice (with option to increase number of affected), along with a 2.5 point bonus to every save they make. It is a significant boost to both offensive and defensive ability, especially if the party boasts multiple and/or strong conventional attacks (most do).

Frankly, in regards to spells that compete with bless due to concentration, I can't think of anything that is a more efficient overall choice until you start getting into the big leagues with high level spells. There are specific cases where I might want to pop Fog Cloud or other conc spells up instead (cover from a battalion of archers for instance in FC's case), but Bless is the one I want up all day every day.

[Spiritchaser]

The only thing with similar generic cost benefit to bless seems to be the much more difficult to obtain pass without trace. A party that has The advantage of surprise on almost every encounter is in a very good place.

I've had a lot of one to two round surprise nova-ganks of things that would otherwise have been hard or deadly encounters


No knock against spirit guardians or haste... but...

For the cost I think bless and pass without trace are better

[Tanarii]

now, if you're fighting something that's pretty trivial, then bless won't do much. the tougher the fight, the more amazing bless gets. if you hit on a 15 because your target has high AC, bless will not help 12.5% of the time on average. it will be a nearly 50% increase in how often you hit. that is huge. and if you're using sharpshooter or great weapon master (the two biggest damage-boosting feats in the game), needing a 15 to hit isn't terribly implausible even into the higher levels.No. It always helps 12.5% of the time on average, aside from advantage/disadvantage situations. It may cause a relative increase in hit frequency of as much as 50%, but it still a 12.5% (on average) absolute increase in hit frequency. And it's the latter that's the relevant number, not the former.

[WereRabbitz]

Bless is better for one simple reason.


Does Shield of Faith give me more dice rolls? No

Does Bless give up to 3 people in my party extra Dice Rolls? Yes!


Dice Rolls = Fun


Honestly though.. Shield of Faith is protecting 1 person and not ending the fight any sooner.

Bless Targets up to 3 people increase chance to land attacks ending the fight sooner.


Defensive spells don't save hitpoints as well as simply ending the fight as soon as possible.


Something like Crusader's Mantle when fighting Numerous Low AC monsters can be the better option, but most of the time unless you got something specific your fighting Bless is a great goto buff.


Part of what I like about playing paladin is you get a wide variety of buffs and there is always 1 or 2 for what ever situation your in.

[RulesJD]

Don't forget:

Bless (so long as you weren't the one concentrating on it) also impacts Death saves, making your higher level characters significantly less likely to die.

By and large, Saves are significantly more important to make in combat than anything else, due to the potential to disable a character completely rather than just do some damage.

The only Cleric spell that competes with Bless is Spirit Guardians. SG when facing 3+ enemies, Bless when 3 or less. Tada.

[Sir cryosin]

I understand the Allure and a pill that bless has but I really see it as a waste of a spell slot if the encounter only last 3 or four rounds. My DM for some reason I don't know why but he likes to throw swarms of enemies at us. So I find it more advantageous to cast Shield of faith on the person with the lowest AC or the for the tank of the party. Because if the tank is doing its job and keeping the enemy and enemies at Bay and has a really high AC so they can't hit him I think that's a very good used to the spell slot. What I would use the spell slot if we were going up against a boss a single Target creature.

[CantigThimble]

I understand the Allure and a pill that bless has but I really see it as a waste of a spell slot if the encounter only last 3 or four rounds. My DM for some reason I don't know why but he likes to throw swarms of enemies at us. So I find it more advantageous to cast Shield of faith on the person with the lowest AC or the for the tank of the party. Because if the tank is doing its job and keeping the enemy and enemies at Bay and has a really high AC so they can't hit him I think that's a very good used to the spell slot. What I would use the spell slot if we were going up against a boss a single Target creature.

It's definitely contextual. If the party is the one with the to-hit rolls that aren't quite measuring up to the enemy then bless is great. If the enemy is having trouble measuring up to your AC then shield of faith is great. e.g., if they go from hitting you on 16-20 to 18-20 then thats 40% damage reduction. However, bless is more powerful because its a 2.5 point swing rather than a 2 point swing, it works on 3 people and it affects saves. This is balanced out by the fact that it costs an action and only lasts one minute instead of 10.

[DracoKnight]

I understand the Allure and a pill that bless has but I really see it as a waste of a spell slot if the encounter only last 3 or four rounds. My DM for some reason I don't know why but he likes to throw swarms of enemies at us. So I find it more advantageous to cast Shield of faith on the person with the lowest AC or the for the tank of the party. Because if the tank is doing its job and keeping the enemy and enemies at Bay and has a really high AC so they can't hit him I think that's a very good used to the spell slot. What I would use the spell slot if we were going up against a boss a single Target creature.


It's definitely contextual. If the party is the one with the to-hit rolls that aren't quite measuring up to the enemy then bless is great. If the enemy is having trouble measuring up to your AC then shield of faith is great. e.g., if they go from hitting you on 16-20 to 18-20 then thats 40% damage reduction. However, bless is more powerful because its a 2.5 point swing rather than a 2 point swing, it works on 3 people and it affects saves. This is balanced out by the fact that it costs an action and only lasts one minute instead of 10.

One thing I will say about shield of faith: it's a pretty nifty spell, +2 AC that stacks with an actual shield, which almost all martial classes have proficiency in. However, it would be a heck of a lot better if it scaled with spell slot, like "you can target one more person per slot level above 1st." Or "you add +1 AC per slot level above 1st."

[Segev]

Why do people swear by the spell bless
I always thought swearing was cursing, myself. Not blessing.

[StarStuff]

Mounts can dash, disengage, or dodge. none of those actions give you advantage.
Unless you're unmounted. In which case, your mount can aid. In fact, since it only costs half your movement to dismount, it isn't hard to have the mount Aid.



You could, theoretically, take mounted combat. on the most MAD and feat-starved class in the game. for something that helps only in certain areas and almost never in some of the most typical types of encounters (like being in a dungeon crawl). It's still popular on non-vengeance subclasses. Maybe 30% of AL paladins I see. Tons of paladins like Mounted Combat to help Wild Shaped Druids overcome their AC problem, on top of the other shenanigans.

And you can summon a mount into a dungeon crawl. A warhorse only takes up 2 squares, but it never has to be the same creature. You can walk into a dungeon and summon a Mastiff. It can still aid.

My point was, it isn't hard to get advantage. And if it is hard, it's an easy problem to fix.



bless is amazing specifically because it DOES help you land those difficult attacks. so actually, having bless really does help with landing your nova. it is, in fact, one of the best spells around for that, especially against high AC targets (which tend to be the most important ones). You aren't wrong. There are occasions when it helps to have more hit. But between magic items, advantage, and just a smidgen of foresight and teamwork, To-Hit is a relatively small problem. Especially at high levels. The Demogorgan has an AC of 22. Same as an Ancient Red Dragon. What is your paladin sitting on at this point. 5Str+5prof+2magicweapon+advantage? You shouldn't have to spend your first action, lock up your concentration, and slow down the game by pestering 2 other players about a d4 to their attacks.



bane also allows a save. so no, you aren't going to soften up legendary resistances by casting it. additionally, charisma is a surprisingly common good save amongst powerful enemies (ie the kind that have legendary resistance in the first place), so good luck landing it (not that bane is a bad spell by any means, it just isn't nearly as reliable as bless. since it does something quite similar to bless, only not as reliably, if bane is good, by extension bless is probably even better).
I think we agree more than we differ. Bane is just sneaky. You're absolutely right that Cha saves are usually pretty solid on high level critters. The strength of Bane is that isn't the kind of thing worth burning Legendary Resistance on. You're more likely to have it stick than other save or sucks in the first round - which is when you would cast Bless - because it doesn't end the fight with a one shot and the boss is less likely to burn 1 of its 3 autosaves to deal with it.

That said, you're probably not using Bane OR Bless in a high level fight against a legendary creature.



now, if you're fighting something that's pretty trivial, then bless won't do much. the tougher the fight, the more amazing bless gets. if you hit on a 15 because your target has high AC, bless will not help 12.5% of the time on average. it will be a nearly 50% increase in how often you hit. that is huge. and if you're using sharpshooter or great weapon master (the two biggest damage-boosting feats in the game), needing a 15 to hit isn't terribly implausible even into the higher levels.Can you walk us through the 50%? You make a valid point about GWM and Sharpshooter, but I don't think he said anyone in his group is taking those feats. Like you said, the paladin is feat starved...



bless is not just about +X bonus damage over 100 rounds (although if you're calculating over 100 rounds, +20 damage is a hilarious underestimation of what bless will do). yes, sometimes you'll roll really well or really badly. but 5e is practically designed around the idea that most of the time, you will need a number somewhere around the middle values of the d20 to succeed, which means it is entirely possible for bless to make the difference.
I see it in play quite a bit. Assuming a 3 round fight without advance warning. You're a paladin, you have 2 other melee attackers. Everyone is getting advantage from critter Aid, class features (vow of enmity), and shenanigans. Over the course of the fight, realistically, 2 to 3 attacks that were destined to miss will now hit on account of bless. Of course, that varies depending where you are in initiative, whether you hold concentration, and whether the right targets were in the 30ft range. You accumulate at least your concentration, your first action (which could have been 2 attacks with smite or another spell), and a spell slot in opportunity costs. It harder to make Bless worth it than people make it out to be.



even more interesting, it can actually stack with advantage, and mitigate disadvantage. you can only get advantage once. anything more does nothing. advantage + bless improves your odds even more.
Totally true, but also overkill. Again, if your fighter can't bust 22AC by time you square off against legendary creatures, Bless won't solve your problem. You gotta throw on problems like GWM and Sharpshooter to make Bless shine.


bless is an excellent buff spell. the save bonus alone can give it value enough to last through the highest levels of the game, and the attack bonus is just the icing on the cake.Well phrased. It doesn't compete against other concentration spells, like the Aura spells, but the save bonus is nice. Then again, saves are also less troubling on account of your Aura of Protection. +2-+5 to saves, on top of your parties mods is magnificent. The 1d4 on top of that goes down easy. And it might make the difference against a DC24 Fire Breath save.

You have better ways to handle saves at high levels. But against low level saves, Bless is beastly. Then again, most of the creatures you're fighting at low levels don't do scary things with saves.



and best of all, it comes out of a level 1 spell slot. so if you're not sure if your help is needed, you can often throw out a bless until you've got a better handle on what the fight needs. if you have to drop it, well, at least it was only a level 1 spell. it may not always be what you need to concentrate on, but it is extremely reliable, and is almost always useful. you might not cast it every fight, but i would say keep it as one of your prepared spells so that you have the option there.Amen. You may get an entitled, power gaming ass at one of your tables who insists you aren't doing your job right if you don't have bless up. I applaud you for breaking the mold and refusing to mindlessly cast it every fight.

I just want to point out, I certainly don't think Bless is a bad spell. It's just much more niche than many players make it out to be.

I'm more impressed by the way the OP solved her barbarian's AC problem with Shield of Faith than by her adherence to Bless.

Edit:spelling

[SharkForce]

No. It always helps 12.5% of the time on average, aside from advantage/disadvantage situations. It may cause a relative increase in hit frequency of as much as 50%, but it still a 12.5% (on average) absolute increase in hit frequency. And it's the latter that's the relevant number, not the former.

it is always helping ~12.5% of the time on average, but no that is not even remotely the relevant number.

if a spell makes you hit twice as often (not that bless will typically do this, it's just an example), it is doubling your damage. doubling your damage means enemies die twice as quickly, which means your side takes less damage.

a bless spell that makes you hit 50% more often (which is more or less the case if you need a 15 to hit and you use bless) is not the same as a 12.5% boost to your damage. it is the same as a 50% boost to your damage. and that is why 12.5% is almost never going to be the relevant number. i don't care about the 12.5% because it doesn't give me any useful information. it's garbage. it is worse than garbage, because garbage is just stuff i don't have a use for, and the 12.5% is not just not useful it is misleading and distracting from the important information. it is true that it works 12.5% of the time on average, but as so often happens with math, it doesn't matter if you're doing the math right unless you are also doing the right math, which is why your math textbooks should have had lots of word problems in them to force you to learn what is by far the more important skill (if they didn't, you should be complaining loudly about that fact, because you got a hugely substandard education).

now, bless won't always give 50% more damage. if you're not fighting high AC opponents or using a feat that gives increased damage for decreased accuracy, it very rarely will. so 50% is not entirely an accurate picture either, because it is really only 50% more damage in a specific scenario (your enemies are fairly hard to hit). but that 12.5% is almost never useful. i don't care about it. it isn't the important number, it isn't the relevant number for any situation (there is a situation where bless will give about +12.5% damage, but it isn't because bless is relevant in 12.5% of attacks, it's because it will make you hit 12.5% more often... which i think happens at something like hitting on a 2 or higher. maybe 3 or higher. certainly, it's not a point that i have ever hit in 5th edition, in any event).

[Pex]

Because you get worse at at least 3 of your savings throw as you gain levels because you are not proficient in them and class features have no incentive to raise a score you are not proficient in with an ASI, but enemy spellcasters will raise their casting stat and monster DCs increase as CR increases. +1d4 to your saves is a big deal. The bonus to attack is more useful at low levels but still useful in high levels because even though you miss less often in general any miss you do have means one more hit worth of hit points the bad guy has to pummel you greatly. Every hit you make counts.

Clerics do have higher level concentration buffs that have greater protection against specific effects. Certainly they should be used when relevant. Bless is still useful in its own right and good for when facing a variety of harmful effects or you don't know going in what the effects are.

[SharkForce]

i really need to explain how bless is roughly a 50% increase in how often you hit when your base chance requires you roll a 15 or better?

alright, fine then.

if you hit on a 15 or better, you are hitting on 6 out of 20 numbers; 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. if you now have bless, that is increasing that range by 2.5 on average. now, 2.5 obviously can't actually happen on a 1d4, but practically speaking, you are now hitting on 14, 13, and half the time in 12. bless added 2 and a half numbers, give or take. 2 and a half numbers isn't quite 50%, but it's fairly close. and it's cleaner to work with for most people. there is also some loss due to critical hits being worth a bit more than others, but that adds a lot of math for not a lot of difference.

alternately, if the question is on how you wind up at needing a 15 at high levels... well, maybe you're using a ranged attack and the enemy has cover. maybe you're using a feat that reduces accuracy. maybe you're using an off-weapon (for example, a strength-based fighter using a bow because there are no enemies in range, and using a bow is better than standing there doing nothing). maybe an enemy just has high base AC and is buffed up for even more (maybe they have a shield guardian, or can parry, or can cast a shield spell, or have a minion casting haste and another minion casting shield of faith, or maybe a few of those things combined).

i really can't agree that the attack bonus benefit of bless is not worth a lot at high levels. it probably isn't worth 50% more damage. but it probably is worth 20-30% more damage, and that isn't insignificant either. you'd be amazed at how much of a performance improvement that represents.

likewise, i can't agree that the save bonus is not worth much at low levels. plenty of low level monsters restrain on a save. that can be a disaster. plenty more poison you for damage. at low levels, taking an extra 2d6 damage in a fight (possibly several times) is a huge deal. potentially, failing a save by a large margin can mean paralysis or unconsciousness for an extended period of time as well. most importantly, you do not yet have your safety net (specifically, having enough hit points that you probably won't die in a single round) yet.

both the attack bonus and the save bonus are relevant at level 1, and continue to be relevant at level 20. bless is an amazing spell. it isn't always the best spell that should be used in every situation over every other possible option (mostly because it requires concentration). but it is almost always going to be a great spell that you could use to good effect in any situation.

[RickAllison]

i really need to explain how bless is roughly a 50% increase in how often you hit when your base chance requires you roll a 15 or better?

alright, fine then.

if you hit on a 15 or better, you are hitting on 6 out of 20 numbers; 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. if you now have bless, that is increasing that range by 2.5 on average. now, 2.5 obviously can't actually happen on a 1d4, but practically speaking, you are now hitting on 14, 13, and half the time in 12. bless added 2 and a half numbers, give or take. 2 and a half numbers isn't quite 50%, but it's fairly close. and it's cleaner to work with for most people. there is also some loss due to critical hits being worth a bit more than others, but that adds a lot of math for not a lot of difference.

alternately, if the question is on how you wind up at needing a 15 at high levels... well, maybe you're using a ranged attack and the enemy has cover. maybe you're using a feat that reduces accuracy. maybe you're using an off-weapon (for example, a strength-based fighter using a bow because there are no enemies in range, and using a bow is better than standing there doing nothing). maybe an enemy just has high base AC and is buffed up for even more (maybe they have a shield guardian, or can parry, or can cast a shield spell, or have a minion casting haste and another minion casting shield of faith, or maybe a few of those things combined).

i really can't agree that the attack bonus benefit of bless is not worth a lot at high levels. it probably isn't worth 50% more damage. but it probably is worth 20-30% more damage, and that isn't insignificant either. you'd be amazed at how much of a performance improvement that represents.

likewise, i can't agree that the save bonus is not worth much at low levels. plenty of low level monsters restrain on a save. that can be a disaster. plenty more poison you for damage. at low levels, taking an extra 2d6 damage in a fight (possibly several times) is a huge deal. potentially, failing a save by a large margin can mean paralysis or unconsciousness for an extended period of time as well. most importantly, you do not yet have your safety net (specifically, having enough hit points that you probably won't die in a single round) yet.

both the attack bonus and the save bonus are relevant at level 1, and continue to be relevant at level 20. bless is an amazing spell. it isn't always the best spell that should be used in every situation over every other possible option (mostly because it requires concentration). but it is almost always going to be a great spell that you could use to good effect in any situation.

I think at higher levels, Bless becomes a fantastic spell to have prepared for the ability to convert that 1st level slot into combat bonuses that still matter. A Wizard 19/Cleric 1 (or Theurge 18 :P) could well find that for any encounters that aren't using concentration already, Bless makes for a great way to help the team while using up those low-level slots (Before Wizard 18, Shield also burns those slots). Bless, Healing Word, Shield, and Mage Armor to a lesser extent are spells that give consistent use to those 1st level slots long after damage and status effects are far less effective.

[Tanarii]

a bless spell that makes you hit 50% more often (which is more or less the case if you need a 15 to hit and you use bless) is not the same as a 12.5% boost to your damage. it is the same as a 50% boost to your damage. and that is why 12.5% is almost never going to be the relevant number. i don't care about the 12.5% because it doesn't give me any useful information. it's garbage. it is worse than garbage, because garbage is just stuff i don't have a use for, and the 12.5% is not just not useful it is misleading and distracting from the important information. it is true that it works 12.5% of the time on average, but as so often happens with math, it doesn't matter if you're doing the math right unless you are also doing the right math, which is why your math textbooks should have had lots of word problems in them to force you to learn what is by far the more important skill (if they didn't, you should be complaining loudly about that fact, because you got a hugely substandard education).I had to read this twice before I realized where I was making my mistake. +12.5% chance to hit doesn't mean (1.125 * H)*D. It means (H+.125)*D.

I'm surprised you couldn't hear me banging my head against my desk all the way over there. :smallredface:

[malachi]

It feels a bit like people are arguing over opposite sides of the issue.
When you increase damage by an amount, you can either talk about the raw increase in damage, or the percentage increase in damage.

If you hit with 10% of your attacks without bless, and hit with 22.5% of your attacks with bless, then your damage increased by 12.5 * your damage / hit (DPH).
Your DPS was .1 * DPH, but is now .225 * DPH, so your DPS increased by 0.125 * DPH, or a factor of 2.25 (+125%).

If you hit with 25% of your attacks without bless, and hit with 37.5% of your attacks with bless, then your damage increased by 12.5 * your DPH.
Your DPS was .25 * DPH, but is now .375 * DPH, so your DPS increased by 0.125 * DPH, or a factor of 1.5 (+50%).

If you hit with 80% of your attacks without bless, and hit with 92.5% of your attacks with bless, then your damage increased by 12.5 * your DPH.
Your DPS was .8 * DPH, but is now .925 * DPH, so your DPS increased by 0.125 * DPH, or a factor of 1.16 (+16%).

If you hit with X% of your attacks without bless, and hit with X+12.5% of your attacks with bless, then your damage increased by 12.6 * your DPH.
Your DPS was X * DPH, but is now (X + 12.5) * DPH, so your DPS increased by 0.125 * DPH, or a factor of (X + 12.5) / (X), and you can figure out your own % increase in damage from that.


Bless, as a 1st level spell, will always increase 3 character's damage by 0.125 * DPH, but has a variable impact on how much of a percentage increase in DPS you attain.
However, it is easy to determine how much damage the spell adds per round, depending on who you give it to.

[RickAllison]

Yep. That's right.

No, that's wrong. It doesn't matter if you do 50% more hits than you did before, because relative numbers to a variable number is meaningless. What's relevant is your DPR increases by 12.5%. Which means you kill things 12.5% faster than you did before. (That's not taking into account that DPR isn't a very accurate measure of kill rate, of course.)

If you focus on the 50%, you're focusing on a pointless number.

First, it is not a guaranteed 12.5% increase, though the times where it wouldn't be are also the times when you just wouldn't use Bless so it is effectively always so. Why would you use Bless when you are hitting on everything north of a two or three?

Secondly, it is certainly not pointless to look at a relative number. Consider Hex or Hunter's Mark. We know what Bless is worth (0.125*DPR of the boosted), but the bonus of the other option is dependent on the enemy's AC. In such a case, you have to compare the boost in DPR from Bless to the bonus damage multiplied by the probability of hitting. At lower levels, this is solidly in favor of Bless, but the bonus to DPR shifts the other way when to-hit of the PCs go up and AC goes down.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, I was totally mathing wrong.

[R.Shackleford]

So I have played a paladin and used bless. And now I'm playing a arcane cleric we just hit lv4 last night. And I have used shield of fate on the halfling barbarian then casting bless. Now I'm not bashing on bless butt I would like to get other people's opinion on the smell people who actually played clerics.

People have this idea that if you don't do the most damage ever then you might as well not be doing damage.

Bless is one of the best ways to increase your damage as it increases your Accuracy pretty well.

I prefer use bless as a way to get creatures to target me instead of my allies. I try to put up sanctuary right before a fight, cast bless during the first round so that creatures see this and want to target me. I then run around using the help action (I love knowledge cleric mastermind rogue btw) so my allies gain (Advantage + 1d4) to attack rolls.

So while I don't like it alone and it really isn't that great by itself... it makes for a fantastic way to keep allies from being targeted

[SmokingSkull]

In the campaign I've played in thus far, from 1 to 12 currently, we've used Bless on and off. For some fights when the enemies were really hard to hit (I'm talking 18 AC and higher) it definitely helped. For other fights where we deal with spellcasters with those save or suck spells it definitely helps. For everything else it's kind of meh to less than useful. I think if you have a DM that throws a variety of encounters at you along with players who are fairly conscientious about their spell usage then Bless won't be up all the time. That being said however my evidence is at best anecdotal, I've fought horrible beasts from beyond the stars, demons, hobgobs and orcs, medusa's and purple worms amongst other things from the menagerie.

It's a decent spell, but it isn't the end all be all ime. For me as a Fighter/Barb it really helps under those specific conditions when we need it. Otherwise that concentration slot is spent on either Guardians or something else based on circumstance. Our group fights, diplomacizes and explores our way through the FR, as such our campaign is a mixed bag. But ymmv, so based on your group's expectations and type of game you play Bless may be OP, in the middle or downright worthless. Just my two copper.

[Zalabim]

Oh, sorry. This is a paladin thread.

I don't know how the math works out in a simulator, but if you spend your action to cast Bless. Is the opportunity costs 1-2 attacks that could have nova'd the scary targets before they hit your friends? How am I solving the To-Hit problem by taking away 2 attacks (assuming Extra Attack).
Depends on how hard everyone hits and how hard it is for you to hit your enemy in the first place. For example, if you hit 65% of the time and everyone you're blessing is dealing ~12 damage per hit, then for two attacks on your turn (130% of 12 damage) you give everyone 12.5% of 12 damage for each of their attacks. Assuming you all attack twice per round, it takes two full rounds with bless to see a gain in damage (+~1.2 after 2 rounds). (130%/12.5%=10.4 attacks/2 apr=5.2 turns/3 targets=~2 rounds to benefit)

On the other hand, if you're all dealing 22 damage per hit and you hit 40% of the time, then you give everyone 12.5% of 22 damage per attack. In that case everything after one full round is a gain (+~15.4 after just 2 rounds). Real parties vary as much as your opponents, so it's worth checking for yourself where it pays off for you.

if you hit on a 15 or better, you are hitting on 6 out of 20 numbers; 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. if you now have bless, that is increasing that range by 2.5 on average. now, 2.5 obviously can't actually happen on a 1d4, but practically speaking, you are now hitting on 14, 13, and half the time in 12. bless added 2 and a half numbers, give or take. 2 and a half numbers isn't quite 50%, but it's fairly close. and it's cleaner to work with for most people. there is also some loss due to critical hits being worth a bit more than others, but that adds a lot of math for not a lot of difference.
I was already near the subject, so for a general example I'd that if you're using GWM with a greatsword (well, 2d6+15 with a 30% chance to hit for whatever reason) you're looking at gaining ~40% DPR with bless in this case.

And of course the save bonus is always a nice benefit for everyone when you need it.

[SharkForce]

also, there is always the ever-popular sorcerer/paladin multiclass which would allow for quickened bless :)

[beargryllz]

Bless is okay but usually not the best spell to be focusing on. I'll use it anyway because it can be game-winning when you resist some save-or-basically-lose ability

[Xetheral]

Both the relative and the absolute increases in damage offered by Bless are relevant when optimizing.

SharkForce is absolutely right that the relative increase in damage dealt is frequently the reciprocal of the fraction by which the length of the battle is reduced (assuming the PCs were going to win anyway). If in a particular battle the party would do 3/2 as much damage as a result of casting Bless, then the battle is likely to only last 2/3 as long. (Which isn't the same thing as taking 2/3 as much damage unless you're against a single monster dealing constant damage.)

On the other hand, the fixed 12.5% absolute increase in average hit chance (barring adv/disadv) Bless provides is also relevant because it determines the absolute increase in damage the spell represents. This is a useful figure because it can easily be compared to the expected output of direct damage spells (or other buffs that can be expressed in terms of damage) that might be an even more efficient use of the spell slot.

A full mathematical analysis of Bless is more complicated than these two figures suggest, but both are relevant when considering the effectiveness of the spell.

[StarStuff]

Just ask yourself, "Is Bless a fun way to spend your action?"

For many of us, the answer is no.

The standard 1d4 doesn't roll well.
It isn't fun to remind players about it when they make an attack roll or even a saving throw.
The first round of battle is usually when the coolest stuff happens for you and other casters.
There are more thoughtful and satisfying ways to hold your concentration, such as Spirit Guardians.


Adventurers are like dogs chasing cars: once we catch one, the fun is over. Of course, you can grind-fest the HP down from any monster. But is calculating damage and attack how you want to spend your time playing D&D?

The guys who play this game to practice their arithmetic are the vocal minority. What most of them fail to realize is that damage and attack are irrelevant once you reach a certain threshold.

No matter how much damage you can do, it's way more fun to bypass 20 encounters with creative spell slot uses than to hammer through 3 encounters with attack and damage dice. Killing a critter is just one of a dozen ways to skin our proverbial, char-op kitty.

But damage is a monkey paw. Is that all you really want?

Now, on occasion there won't be anything else to do but roll attacks. You should probably keep Bless around for that scenario. It's also worth it if you know you'll making at least a handful of saving throws in a brawl against a legendary critter with spell-like effects.

But please don't be another "Bless is the only spell I need" type of cleric. You have almost twice the number of spells prepared as a comparable wizard for most of the game. If you don't use all of them once, you're letting us down.

Now get to it, mighty holy man!

[BW022]

So I have played a paladin and used bless. And now I'm playing a arcane cleric we just hit lv4 last night. And I have used shield of fate on the halfling barbarian then casting bless. Now I'm not bashing on bless butt I would like to get other people's opinion on the smell people who actually played clerics.

A typical monster has an AC of say 16. A PC might be +5 to hit. He hits 50% of the time (11..20). Adding +2.5, he hits on a (8.5...20) 67.5% of the time. You now hit 37% more often. That is huge. That means 37% more damage. This then balloons... more damage means enemies drop faster, which means less damage taken by you. Which often means less rounds spent healing, taking other actions, moving, using potions, etc. For a low-level party, that can easily reduce the overall resource utilization by half or more -- especially if spells such as guiding bolt work or enemies waste spells like sleep (because most of the PCs now save).

Paladin often isn't a great bless caster -- since they are front-line melee. The spell often works when you have character cast it who can stay back (a bard, off-tanking cleric, etc.) and you aren't subjected to a lot of ranged attacks against you. Its effect diminish quickly though. By 5th... you often have better spells to cast, are limited by concentration spells, are subject to more attacks against non-front-line casters, and many characters have reasonable starts and abilities such that they hit a lot without the need for a bonus.

[R.Shackleford]

A typical monster has an AC of say 16. A PC might be +5 to hit. He hits 50% of the time (11..20). Adding +2.5, he hits on a (8.5...20) 67.5% of the time. You now hit 37% more often. That is huge. That means 37% more damage. This then balloons... more damage means enemies drop faster, which means less damage taken by you. Which often means less rounds spent healing, taking other actions, moving, using potions, etc. For a low-level party, that can easily reduce the overall resource utilization by half or more -- especially if spells such as guiding bolt work or enemies waste spells like sleep (because most of the PCs now save).

Paladin often isn't a great bless caster -- since they are front-line melee. The spell often works when you have character cast it who can stay back (a bard, off-tanking cleric, etc.) and you aren't subjected to a lot of ranged attacks against you. Its effect diminish quickly though. By 5th... you often have better spells to cast, are limited by concentration spells, are subject to more attacks against non-front-line casters, and many characters have reasonable starts and abilities such that they hit a lot without the need for a bonus.

Once Paladins get +Cha to saves and if they pick up resilient CON or Warcaster... Well, being front line doesn't matter anymore.

DC 10 is typically what you will need to make (half damage on each attack tends to be less than 10) and doing 1d20+Con (2 or 3) + Cha (3 or 4) + Adv/Prof ... Means you aren't losing concentration checks due to damage.

Mid levels the paladin becomes the best bless caster.


Edit

The claw of an ancient green dragon average damage is 22, which is a DC 11 concentration check. So on average an ancient green dragon isn't going to deal enough damage in one hit to make you be scared of a concentration check.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Just ask yourself, "Is Bless a fun way to spend your action?"

For many of us, the answer is no.


Is constantly missing in combat a fun way to spend your action?

For many of us, the answer is no.

That's why Bless is literally a Godsend.

[Rysto]

Once Paladins get +Cha to saves and if they pick up resilient CON or Warcaster... Well, being front line doesn't matter anymore.

DC 10 is typically what you will need to make (half damage on each attack tends to be less than 10) and doing 1d20+Con (2 or 3) + Cha (3 or 4) + Adv/Prof ... Means you aren't losing concentration checks due to damage.

Mid levels the paladin becomes the best bless caster.

Also don't forget that Bless boosts your own concentration saves.

[R.Shackleford]

Also don't forget that Bless boosts your own concentration saves.

With a 2 Con, 3 Cha, bless 1d4, and prof...

On average you would roll

1d20 + 5 + 2.5 + 4 (+11.5)

With resilient (Con) you would never fail a con save.

[BoxANT]

Bless is solid, but in tier 2 it competes with SG so will be used less (but still nice to have)

it not only boosts the damage of your strikers

but can also be very beneficial to your CC casters, giving them +2.5 on average to their concentration checks can be huge on a Con 14 (non proficient) wizard.

And before you say "the wizard shouldnt get hit"... some DMs didnt get that memo

[Aett_Thorn]

Thread necro, ahoy!

[bobofwestgate]

So I have played a paladin and used bless. And now I'm playing a arcane cleric we just hit lv4 last night. And I have used shield of fate on the halfling barbarian then casting bless. Now I'm not bashing on bless butt I would like to get other people's opinion on the smell people who actually played clerics.

That plus 1d4 really helps to mitigate the penalty for sharpshooter and great weapon master

[Sigreid]

I understand the Allure and a pill that bless has but I really see it as a waste of a spell slot if the encounter only last 3 or four rounds. My DM for some reason I don't know why but he likes to throw swarms of enemies at us. So I find it more advantageous to cast Shield of faith on the person with the lowest AC or the for the tank of the party. Because if the tank is doing its job and keeping the enemy and enemies at Bay and has a really high AC so they can't hit him I think that's a very good used to the spell slot. What I would use the spell slot if we were going up against a boss a single Target creature.

There's the thing right there. If you're fighting swarms of low level opponents that the party doesn't have any real trouble hitting then you're not really going to notice much difference with Bless. I mean if you're to hit roll needed goes from 10 down to 8 it's not going to stand out. But if you can boost your opponents needed roll from a 14 to a 16 for example, that's going to show a lot.

If you flip the script though, and you're fighting an opponent that you need the die to show a 14 or 16 to hit that extra 1d4 is going to stand out. On the other hand, if the opposition only needs an 8 to show on the die to tag you, that extra 2 isn't going to seem to do as much.

This is even though in both cases the mechanical benefit is exactly the same.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Thread Necromancy is disfavored here.