Theurge starting at lvl 3 (theoretical optimization, possibly practical)

[schreier]

I am working with a PC who loves the idea of theurging, but hates the lost caster levels. We're starting at lvl 7 right now, so I am trying to help him by coming up with an idea that would work theoretically. I just wanted to confirm I'm not missing anything.

If you take an Illumian Domain Wizard, with 2 flaws ... starting feats: Precocious Apprentice, and two feats that don't matter specifically (they will be reformed next level)

Precocious Apprentive lets you cast one second level arcane spell some of the time. This can be argued to meet the Mystic Theurge 2nd level spell requirement - and in this case, since it's gray, I'd allow it -- it can only be taken at level 1

Then, at level 2, take Archivist.
You don't normally gets feats here, but if you have a cooperative psionics user, you would:
Exchange the two "don't matter" feats for:

Laborious Training (lets you raise Int skills to level +5 instead of level +3) -- this requires knowledge 5+, which is why you can't take it at level one - it's in the Ravenloft book Legacy of Blood (3rd party, but allowed here)

Alternative Source Spell (lets you cast arcane as divine, and vice versa) -- this requires the ability to cast both arcane and divine, which is why it had to wait for level 2 ... I could have gone archivist with Magical Training, but you can't then get precocious apprentice



So you can get the skill requirement at level 2 through laborious training, and the arcane spell through precocious apprentice. Then the divine spell through precocious apprentice and alternative source spell


Does that work? Assuming it does, you would then replace laborious training and precocious apprentice with more useful feats once you are higher level - maybe academic priest (to get bonus spells from int - it's in legend of the twins)

Thoughts? Is it "legal," assuming you allow precocious apprentice to qualify for mystic theurge?

Thanks
schreier

[Doc_Maynot]

Actually, you could have your first level be Archivist, take Magical Training (Wizard), Precocious Apprentice, and Alternative Source Spell at level one. At level 2 take a proper (Domain) Wizard level and then enter in Theurge as as you have the skill rank requirements at level 3.

[Grim Reader]

Precocious Apprentice does not work by RAW. You'd need to houserule it.

When you achieve second level spells in your other class, you lose the benefits of PA as it says in the text, and it turns into a second level spellslot in your second class.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you're an Illumian, why not use Improved Krau Sigil?

[schreier]

I considered the archivist first with magical training - but you take skill ranks after picking class, right? So you couldn't get theurge until level 4, since you'd get 6 skill ranks at lvl 3.

Laborious training can't be taken until you have 5 rank in knowledge - and you're already using all 3 starting feats.

I know you gain a second level spellslot when you gain access to second level spells - but why does this pose a problem in this situation?

and I wanted Improved sigil - I actually was going to do that originally ...

So replace precocious apprentice with improved krau sigil - does that work?

Doesn't even seem to need alternative source spell, since you can pick a cleric spell, and a wizard spell to each be +1 level ... so really improved krau sigil, and laborious training are all you need?

[Grim Reader]

I know you gain a second level spellslot when you gain access to second level spells - but why does this pose a problem in this situation?

I don't quite see how you can cast both an Arcane and a Divine spell of level 2. Your intial spellslot is only useful for casting the precocious spell, and when you lose it through being able to cast a divine level 2 spell you can no longer cast the precocious spell.

[schreier]

I don't quite see how you can cast both an Arcane and a Divine spell of level 2. Your intial spellslot is only useful for casting the precocious spell, and when you lose it through being able to cast a divine level 2 spell you can no longer cast the precocious spell.

Using the original plan, you would use alternative source spell to memorize that one second level spell as a divine spell. Then, you have the ability to cast a second level divine spell.

[Troacctid]

If you're an Illumian, why not use Improved Krau Sigil?
Yeah, this is just way easier and more efficient than all that other crap, and it gets you in at the same level. Plus, unlike Precocious Apprentice, it actually works.

[BearonVonMu]

If you are allowed to use Pathfinder third party material, there is an amazing and simple base class called Theurge there.
A search for "Pathfinder Theurge" will pull that right up.
It is effectively a Mystic Theurge (Wizard/Cleric) redeveloped as a base class, and I think it is pretty fantastic. You lose specializations, bonus wizard feats, and domains, but also have no lost caster levels ever throughout your twenty levels and gain a couple small perks.
Take a look!

[schreier]

Yeah, this is just way easier and more efficient than all that other crap, and it gets you in at the same level. Plus, unlike Precocious Apprentice, it actually works.

So improved krau sigil and laborious training (gained at lvl 2 with psionic reformation) gets you there without any problem, right? Just have one arcane and one divine spell in the feat, and you're good.

Then, at lvl 3, do another reformation to get rid of laborious training.

Heck, at lvl 4, you could even ditch improved krau sigil if you wanted, since the increased spell level is no longer essential.

And pathfinder theurge sounds great - so far, haven't gone down the pathfinder route yet though

[Anthrowhale]

There is a dragon magazine (#325) feat called "Theurgic Specialist" which allows you to _add_ your caster levels for the purposes of a specialty school. This is quite nice, because it transforms the Theurge from a generalist with a pile of spells into a powerful specialist reminiscent of a red wizard/archmage.

The downside is that this requires specialist wizard L3. Even with that, a Specialist Wizard 3/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 3 has a caster level of 10, 3 ahead of a pure class. If you use Alternate Source Spell to qualify, you won't want to recycle it away since you can use it to DMM(Persist) Wizard spells and walk around in full armor.

You might even consider going for DMM(Persist) to start with using something like:

Human Cleric 1 (Planning, Undeath, Rebuke Dragons ACF)/Wizard Specialist 3/Mystic Theurge 3
Planning: Extend spell
Undeath: Extra Turning.
Human: Persistent Spell
1. DMM(Persistent Spell)
3. Alternate Source Spell
6. Theurgic Specialist

(then take Sacred Exorcist as soon as it becomes available to double your turn pool)

[Fouredged Sword]

If you start from a cleric base you can do heighten spell and versatile spellcaster to get 2nd level spells. You can spontaneously cast cure so you qualify. You can then take an arcane casting class and apply versatile spellcaster as it is casting neutral.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So improved krau sigil and laborious training (gained at lvl 2 with psionic reformation) gets you there without any problem, right? Just have one arcane and one divine spell in the feat, and you're good.
Yes, that'll do it.

[Name1]

Hmm.. I mean, getting him to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells is easy, a level 1 Mulan Human Sorcerer can easily pull that off (they can even qualify for a class that requires a level 3 spell of either, I think), but the skill ranks are a problem. Primary Contact can only be taken once, sadly...

So yeah, the only way you can pull this off is by taking a level in sorcerer and one in... whatever divine class you like and wait...

I mean, I personally believe that he should take 2 flaws to get the prerequisites for Earth Spell, use his human feat for Earth spell and Versatile Spellcaster and take his second level in Rainbow Servant, which is quite good if you rule that Cleric Spell Access allows Mystic Theurge to apply both levels to Sorcerer. It sucks a bit before he gets to level 13, but... Yeah...

[Troacctid]

If you start from a cleric base you can do heighten spell and versatile spellcaster to get 2nd level spells. You can spontaneously cast cure so you qualify. You can then take an arcane casting class and apply versatile spellcaster as it is casting neutral.
This requires the spontaneous cleric variant, as the base cleric does not have spells known to use with Versatile Spellcaster.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I mean, I personally believe that he should take 2 flaws to get the prerequisites for Earth Spell, use his human feat for Earth spell and Versatile Spellcaster and take his second level in Rainbow Servant, which is quite good if you rule that Cleric Spell Access allows Mystic Theurge to apply both levels to Sorcerer. It sucks a bit before he gets to level 13, but... Yeah...
Rainbow Servants cast cleric spells as arcane spells - at no point does the base class become a divine casting class, so there is no way to advance sorcerer twice with Mystic Theurge. If anything dual--advances sorcerer in some cases, it's Ultimate Magus, and UM does it better than MT ever could, since it has class features.

[Name1]

Rainbow Servants cast cleric spells as arcane spells - at no point does the base class become a divine casting class, so there is no way to advance sorcerer twice with Mystic Theurge. If anything dual--advances sorcerer in some cases, it's Ultimate Magus, and UM does it better than MT ever could, since it has class features.

Actually, the class specifically states "Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists."

[Troacctid]

And Ultimate Magus doesn't dual-advance sorcerer either, so it's a miss all around.

[Jack_Simth]

And Ultimate Magus doesn't dual-advance sorcerer either, so it's a miss all around.
That's partially correctable - Arcane Preparation lets you prepare spells as a Sorcerer, so suddenly it's both prepared and spontaneous (there's a few methods by which to do that the other way for a Wizard).

[Troacctid]

That's partially correctable - Arcane Preparation lets you prepare spells as a Sorcerer, so suddenly it's both prepared and spontaneous (there's a few methods by which to do that the other way for a Wizard).
It still doesn't dual-advance sorcerer.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually, the class specifically states "Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists."
Hmm, I missed that. I don't think it will make the sorcerer base count as divine casting class, but it sure strengthens the argument.


And Ultimate Magus doesn't dual-advance sorcerer either, so it's a miss all around.
You'll note that I said that in a form of conditional. UM doesn't dual-advance sorcerer, certainly, but if you were to allow MT to dual-advance sorcerer Rainbow Servants, you would - assuming fairly consistent application of the principle - certainly have allowed UM to dual-advance an Arcane Preparation sorcerer.

[Anthrowhale]

It still doesn't dual-advance sorcerer.

What is the argument against dual-advancing a Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 1 ? This wizard is a divine caster.

(The easier form of this is with a Sha'ir.)

[zergling.exe]

What is the argument against dual-advancing a Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 1 ? This wizard is a divine caster.

(The easier form of this is with a Sha'ir.)

This wizard can cast some spells as divine spells, but wizard is still not a divine spellcaster. Therefore, mystic theurge cannot apply a +1 to a divine spellcasting class to the wizard.

[Troacctid]

What is the argument against dual-advancing a Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 1 ? This wizard is a divine caster.

(The easier form of this is with a Sha'ir.)
Choose an arcane class and a divine class. Advance both classes by one effective spellcasting level. If you chose the same class twice somehow (e.g. sha'ir), you'd advance that one class by one effective spellcasting level.

[Grim Reader]

This wizard can cast some spells as divine spells, but wizard is still not a divine spellcaster. Therefore, mystic theurge cannot apply a +1 to a divine spellcasting class to the wizard.

If you go by strict RAW, you can't apply it to either I believe. You need to be able to cast all your spells as arcane to qualify as an arcane caster, and all of them as divine to qualify as divine. No DM I ever met has been that strict though.


Choose an arcane class and a divine class. Advance both classes by one effective spellcasting level. If you chose the same class twice somehow (e.g. sha'ir), you'd advance that one class by one effective spellcasting level.

This really.

[Anthrowhale]

This wizard can cast some spells as divine spells, but wizard is still not a divine spellcaster.
This does not seem like a convincing argument, because this wizard does cast divine spells.

If you go by strict RAW, you can't apply it to either I believe. You need to be able to cast all your spells as arcane to qualify as an arcane caster, and all of them as divine to qualify as divine. No DM I ever met has been that strict though.

I don't know any references claiming that a divine spellcaster only casts divine spells and this seems inconsistent with the way that prerequisites for PRCs are applied. Do you have a reference?


Choose an arcane class and a divine class. Advance both classes by one effective spellcasting level. If you chose the same class twice somehow (e.g. sha'ir), you'd advance that one class by one effective spellcasting level.
This argument seems convincing. It seems to be the only interpretation consistent with this:


This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

[Grim Reader]

I don't know any references claiming that a divine spellcaster only casts divine spells and this seems inconsistent with the way that prerequisites for PRCs are applied. Do you have a reference?

I misremembered. There is a rule in the Rules Compendium about spontaneous/prepared casters, and I misrembered it to apply to arcane/divine as well.

[Thurbane]

I've seen this "Laborious Training" feat mentioned a few times recently. I've never heard of it, and a Google search isn't giving me any joy.

Since I don't see it raised regularly in early-entry threads, would it be safe to assume it's a Dragon magazine feat?

Never mind - I think I've found it. Third party Ravenloft feat?

[schreier]

I've seen this "Laborious Training" feat mentioned a few times recently. I've never heard of it, and a Google search isn't giving me any joy.

Since I don't see it raised regularly in early-entry threads, would it be safe to assume it's a Dragon magazine feat?

Never mind - I think I've found it. Third party Ravenloft feat?

Yes! I allowed it, since Ravenloft has a 1st party book ... same with Dragonlance (allowing things like Academic Priest, which is 3rd party book)

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho, "Spellhoarding - White Dragonspawn - Dragonwrought Kobold - Loredrake" is the way to go.

White Dragonspawn is a template that gives you access to Sorcerer casting lvl1 (or +1 if you already have it but we take the first option here). It has a LA +1 which you can buyoff at class lvl 3.
Dragonwrought gives you +3 to mental stats for free (no aging penalties) and access to Sovereign Archetypes. You choose Loredrake which gives you +2lvl of Sorcerer casting for reduced Racial HD (which doesn't matter for the Kobold).
You do the Draconic Rite of Passage, take @lvl3 Draconic Reservoir (feat) to access the Greater D.Rite.o.P. which gives you another lvl of Sorcerer casting.

Lets summ it up:

Invested
- 2 feats
- 2x 100g for the Rituals
- some xp for the +1 LA buyoff

Gained 4 extra casterlvl & spellprogression for Sorcerer !

3 Cleric / 1 Sorcerer
at this Point you can add 3 of your 4 extra casterlvl and are rdy to enter Theurge.
You start 1 lvl later but end up with possible 21 CLVL for Sorcerer as 20th lvl character.
Further the +3 to mental stats are just to good to pass as Theurge.

And you can apply more Dragon cheese.

Dragon psychosis: Spellhoarding
1) +2 Int -4 Wis
2) changes Sorcerer casting/preparation to Wizard. Int you new mainstat. Spells you learn appear on your scales (aka your spellbook/spellhoard). you can burn up to 15 Spells/day from your Scales and cast em as if they were scrolls (and lose them until you relearn them from other source again).
3) you can burn Spells from your Scales/Spellhoard for XP/Gold points to use for either crafting or for your Spell catching ability
4) Spellcatching. Lose a prepared Spell of same lvl or higher with same descriptor or element, pay some Gold in Gems(or Goldpoints) to counter a spell and put a copy of it in your Spellhoard (Scales).

And there are many more reasons, why Kobold is always (!) the answer ;)

sidenote: The -4 Wis from Spellhoarding hurts the cleric a bit, but since you get +3 mental from Dragonwrought it isn't a big deal. You get +5 Int for your Sorcerer/wannabeWizard casting (+3 from Dragonwrought and +2 for the psychosis). But if you dislike the idea, it's not a big deal. You can still play the build without it. It just fits good imho.

[Troacctid]

Imho, "Spellhoarding - White Dragonspawn - Dragonwrought Kobold - Loredrake" is the way to go.

White Dragonspawn is a template that gives you access to Sorcerer casting lvl1 (or +1 if you already have it but we take the first option here). It has a LA +1 which you can buyoff at class lvl 3.
Dragonwrought gives you +3 to mental stats for free (no aging penalties) and access to Sovereign Archetypes. You choose Loredrake which gives you +2lvl of Sorcerer casting for reduced Racial HD (which doesn't matter for the Kobold).
You do the Draconic Rite of Passage, take @lvl3 Draconic Reservoir (feat) to access the Greater D.Rite.o.P. which gives you another lvl of Sorcerer casting.
You can't take the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage at level 3, and Dragonwrought doesn't make you eligible for sovereign archetypes. And +1 LA for +1 sorcerer level is a wash; it doesn't actually get you ahead on levels.

[Gruftzwerg]

You can't take the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage at level 3, and Dragonwrought doesn't make you eligible for sovereign archetypes. And +1 LA for +1 sorcerer level is a wash; it doesn't actually get you ahead on levels.

you take Draconic Reservoir @lvl3, the greater rite is available at 6.
I said that you can get 3 of 4 extra sorcerer lvls when your classlevels are Cleric 3/ Sorcerer1.
Imho Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons and thus eligible for sovereign archetypes. You may argue on this point, but there are enough tables who play at a cheese lvl where it is legit.
And when OP asks for early entry cheese, I'll give him early entry cheese.

@classlvl 3 you buy off the +1 LA from the template

when you are Clearic 3 / Sorcerer 1, you have +1 additional Sorcerer from White Dragonspawn, +2 from Loredrake, which equals in spellprogession for a 4th lvl Sorcerer (=2nd grade spells).
Now you are a 4th lvl charakter (with some xp behind your teammates, due to the xp buyoff) who can enter Theurge next lvl.
At lvl 6 you can than make the Greater Rite and get your last bonus Sorcerer casting lvl/progression.

[Thurbane]

Yes! I allowed it, since Ravenloft has a 1st party book ... same with Dragonlance (allowing things like Academic Priest, which is 3rd party book)

Fair call. It's an interesting feat. I do allow a small number of 3rd party feats in my game (Lost Tradition, Crossbow Mastery etc.) so I may well include this one too.

[Troacctid]

Imho Dragonwrought Kobolds are true dragons and thus eligible for sovereign archetypes. You may argue on this point, but there are enough tables who play at a cheese lvl where it is legit.
And when OP asks for early entry cheese, I'll give him early entry cheese.
Cheese that's not RAW shouldn't really count as cheese. I could houserule that changelings can take sovereign archetypes by disguising themselves as silver dragons in human form, but I wouldn't consider it an optimization hack.


@classlvl 3 you buy off the +1 LA from the template
LA buyoff is a variant rule. The default rules don't allow you to buy off LA. If you have the authority to use whatever variants you want, why are you bothering with three levels of cleric instead of just going Cleric 1/Sorcerer 1 and taking the test-based prerequisite? And use the spell points variant too while you're at it, since it's a massive power boost that's totally free. Maybe throw in combat facing and critical failures just for laughs.

[Rebel7284]

Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 2 with Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell as feats (both feats work with both arcane and divine spontaneous casting).
The dead levels web article also gives your Favored Soul the right skills.

Sure you don't get to be a wizard or cleric, but you should have enough spells to solve most situations. :)

[Sandsarecool]

Imho, "Spellhoarding - White Dragonspawn - Dragonwrought Kobold - Loredrake" is the way to go.

White Dragonspawn is a template that gives you access to Sorcerer casting lvl1 (or +1 if you already have it but we take the first option here). It has a LA +1 which you can buyoff at class lvl 3.
Dragonwrought gives you +3 to mental stats for free (no aging penalties) and access to Sovereign Archetypes. You choose Loredrake which gives you +2lvl of Sorcerer casting for reduced Racial HD (which doesn't matter for the Kobold).
You do the Draconic Rite of Passage, take @lvl3 Draconic Reservoir (feat) to access the Greater D.Rite.o.P. which gives you another lvl of Sorcerer casting.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought that White Dragonspawn and Dragonwrought kobolds were incompatible, due to the requirements.

[Gruftzwerg]

Cheese that's not RAW shouldn't really count as cheese. I could houserule that changelings can take sovereign archetypes by disguising themselves as silver dragons in human form, but I wouldn't consider it an optimization hack.
As far as i know, the status of Dragonwrought Kobolds being True Dragons is debatable and always a DM call (OP seems to be the DM and already said things, like "...gray.. would allow it". conclusion, up for some debatable cheese). And if you once legitimate the true dragon status of D. Kobolds, you can access Sovereign Archtypes. The only requirement is to be a true dragon.
Loredrake requires you to set your racial HD to D10 instead of D12, but doesn't require to have any racial HD at all. It's the same as in the Sovereign Archtypes, which replaces your optional spell selection, if you have any at all. replace != requirement. And Loredrake just replaces your racial HD, no requirement.



LA buyoff is a variant rule. The default rules don't allow you to buy off LA. If you have the authority to use whatever variants you want, why are you bothering with three levels of cleric instead of just going Cleric 1/Sorcerer 1 and taking the test-based prerequisite? And use the spell points variant too while you're at it, since it's a massive power boost that's totally free. Maybe throw in combat facing and critical failures just for laughs.

Yeah, LA buyoff is a variant rule and there is no restrictions set about them in the OP as far as I am aware. And since he is the DM, he will decide whether or not to use said variant rule.

The goal was Early Entry for Full Casting Progress, not to cheese the hell out of it. I hope I didn't draw a wrong impression just because I added some lil jokes about Kobold power fluff?!?

[Troacctid]

As far as i know, the status of Dragonwrought Kobolds being True Dragons is debatable and always a DM call (OP seems to be the DM and already said things, like "...gray.. would allow it". conclusion, up for some debatable cheese). And if you once legitimate the true dragon status of D. Kobolds, you can access Sovereign Archtypes. The only requirement is to be a true dragon.
True dragons advance by age category. Kobolds don't, so they are lesser dragons, not true dragons. It's pretty clear-cut. There's no room to debate what it means to advance by age categories either, since there are almost a full three pages in Draconomicon going over the rules for advancing by age category in painstaking detail.

[Gruftzwerg]

True dragons advance by age category. Kobolds don't, so they are lesser dragons, not true dragons. It's pretty clear-cut. There's no room to debate what it means to advance by age categories either, since there are almost a full three pages in Draconomicon going over the rules for advancing by age category in painstaking detail.

There are plenty of debate available on this topic and I guess it's up to the DM to approve said info.
And it would be polite if you wouldn't try to make your "opinion" on that tropic to look like a 100% clear rule by raw or something. Cause as said it is debatable (really do we need to repeat it here?).

"True dragons advance by age categories".
Imho "advance by age categories" isn't a defined term nor set into stone. It's just you who wants to read it as set trmus for advancing by HD and the like. But gaining mental stats for again without losing any stats is also a form of ability grow (note that Attributes count as Natural Abilities).

Daconomicon, just explains the fluff in the life circle of a Dragon (has no special text for especially True Dragon in the age categories as far as I am aware). And if you want to really call it a rule than: it's a general rule which becomes thumped by specific (Dragonwrought feat). The feat turns you into a Dragon and Draconomicon explanation of Age categories wouldn't stop you from being a Dragon.

but pls, can we stop this unneeded repeating of already said thing? I'm sure, the DM will look up all the stuff before he can make a decision (and the info is barely, so he would already need to look up all the stuff himself and read it).

You could have been polite and just point out that it's debatable (and what your opinion is) and that the OP should just have a look on the discussions before making his decision. We don't need to repeat here all the said thing about D. Kobolds being True or not. If you want to talk about if Dragonwrought are True Dragons or not, make a own thread about it and I'll gladly join you in my free time ;)

PS: I hope I don't sound to offending, not my intention. English is my 3 language after all, so excuse me.

[Troacctid]

"True dragons advance by age categories".
Imho "advance by age categories" isn't a defined term nor set into stone. It's just you who wants to read it as set trmus for advancing by HD and the like. But gaining mental stats for again without losing any stats is also a form of ability grow (note that Attributes count as Natural Abilities).

Daconomicon, just explains the fluff in the life circle of a Dragon (has no special text for especially True Dragon in the age categories as far as I am aware). And if you want to really call it a rule than: it's a general rule which becomes thumped by specific (Dragonwrought feat). The feat turns you into a Dragon and Draconomicon explanation of Age categories wouldn't stop you from being a Dragon.
Three pages of painstaking detail on how dragons advance by age category, starting on page 142. It's very well-defined. True dragons' LA and RHD increase with age. Lesser dragons have fixed LA and RHD that do not change over time. This is spelled out pretty explicitly in the book. (And there's nothing in the Dragonwrought feat that says you're a true dragon or that you advance by age categories, so I'unno what you're talking about there.)

Just cuz you aren't aware of a rule doesn't mean there isn't one. :smalltongue:

[Gruftzwerg]

Three pages of painstaking detail on how dragons advance by age category, starting on page 142.

Draconomicon talks about "Advancing by Age". But when you look up "True Dragon" on the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age.

For me it isn't the same therm and therefor !=
and as said, gaining more abilities is easily achieved due to mental stat bonus (without penalties = a pure gain). Power is just a fluff word with no further impact, since it isn't a defined d&d term either.

Further the Advancing by Age is a general Rule which becomes trumped by the specific rule of the Dragonwrought Kobold feat. Kobold feat lets you become a Dragon and the AbA rule won't change that.

The only point to debate imho is whether or not you/the DM should make a table like Draconomicon suggest for other True Dragons (p144) so that your D. Kobold can "Advance by Age" too.

imho, what you are telling is RAI and not RAW. but that's just my opinion. I may still be proved wrong and it's up to every table to decide it their self.

The wording about Dragons and True Dragons is so poorly written in 3.5 that it's hard to see, what is really RAW and what RAI. RAI you can easily predict with some logical thoughts. But to get the hang out of RAW, you need to become a wording lawyer to see all ways of abuse/exploit in the text.

[Troacctid]

Further the Advancing by Age is a general Rule which becomes trumped by the specific rule of the Dragonwrought Kobold feat. Kobold feat lets you become a Dragon and the AbA rule won't change that.
Of course they're dragons. They have the dragon type.

Dragons are divided into true dragons and lesser dragons. Any dragon that does not advance by age category is a lesser dragon, not a true dragon, per Draconomicon. Since kobolds do not advance by age category, only by class level, they are lesser dragons. Like half-dragons, wyverns, and dragon turtles, they have the dragon type and all its associated benefits (including qualifying for Epic feats pre-Epic if they are of old age or older), but they are not considered true dragons and cannot take sovereign archetypes.

[Grim Reader]

So if you somehow (flaws) wing two feats at level one, a Changeling could take Racial Emulation (Kobold) then Dragonwrought at level 1...

[Vizzerdrix]

Of course they're dragons. They have the dragon type.

Dragons are divided into true dragons and lesser dragons. Any dragon that does not advance by age category is a lesser dragon, not a true dragon, per Draconomicon. Since kobolds do not advance by age category, only by class level, they are lesser dragons. Like half-dragons, wyverns, and dragon turtles, they have the dragon type and all its associated benefits (including qualifying for Epic feats pre-Epic if they are of old age or older), but they are not considered true dragons and cannot take sovereign archetypes.

I think the traditional counter arguement is this- they do have age catagories. They are even named the same as TD age catagories and when dragonwrought only gain benefits with age. Not that I agree with that, but I just wanted to beat someone to saying it.

[Gruftzwerg]

Any dragon that does not advance by age category is a lesser dragon, not a true dragon, per Draconomicon.

But but that is just your assumtion. At least I couldn't find a passage where this is explicit stated this way.
The only thing that I found was, what I already posted.
Look up the "other True Dragons" part after "Advance by Age". It says that the DM should consider to make for other True Dragons not mentioned in the Monster Manual (means, everything that is released later or from other sources) possible with the help of the Table 3-22 (p144).

Since Kobolds qualify for gaining Abilities for aging, they are true Dragons.
As said, you should more think about if you give them the racial HD progression too. If you read Draconomicon RAW, it even leaves you no choice. So give the Kobold "Advancing by Age" if you really want to stick to that rule. At least that is, how I would read this RAW ( as said RAI is a totally different thing).

You need to compare the RAW/RAI thing with Hacking. The programmer and the end user don't expect wired things to happen and it is not intended. But the Hacker says: "sry, but the exploit is there. I didn't put it there. I just abused every possibility."

[Troacctid]

I think the traditional counter arguement is this- they do have age catagories. They are even named the same as TD age catagories and when dragonwrought only gain benefits with age. Not that I agree with that, but I just wanted to beat someone to saying it.
"Advance" is a rules term that refers to how monsters improve. Every true dragon has a line in its monster entry that looks like this:

Advancement: Wyrmling 5-6 HD; very young 8-9 HD; young 11-12 HD; juvenile 14-15 HD; young adult 17-18 HD; adult 20-21 HD; mature adult 23-24 HD; old 26-27 HD; very old 29-30 HD; ancient 32-33 HD; wyrm 35-36 HD; great wyrm 38+ HD
The equivalent line for kobolds just says:

Advancement: By character class
Kobolds advance strictly by character class, not by age category.

[Gruftzwerg]

"Advance" is a rules term that refers to how monsters improve. Every true dragon has a line in its monster entry that looks like this:

The equivalent line for kobolds just says:

Kobolds advance strictly by character class, not by age category.

We have only a "Kobold" entry in the MM and even in the SRD. Since we haven't a statblock for "Dragonwrought Kobolds" (and won't find any) your point isn't vaild.

And Draconomicon says for "other True Dragons": Give True Dragons that are not mentioned here "Advancing by Aging" as per Table 3-22. You just make up (sry if it sounds rude) that the absence of "Advancing by Aging" makes a Dragon automatic a lesser one. But Draconomicon tells you to alter all True Dragons that are not mentioned there to give em just right THAT. ( sry but I keep repeating myself and dunno if I am just incapable of explaining it comprehensible or if you just aren't proving my arguments.?^^)

And the fact that Draconomicon tells you to give all other True Dragons Advancing by Aging, explains very well why:
"gain more abilities and greater power as they age" != "Advancing by Aging"

You can qualify for "gain more abilities and greater power as they age" by "Advancing by Aging", but that doesn't mean that they are exchangeable terms (sry, but RAW 3.5 doesn't work that way, RAI does. RAW is strict when it comes to wording and that is what I try to point out here. you think RAI and not RAW imho).

[MHCD]

To bring things a bit back on topic here, the rebuilding rules in PHBII can be helpful for retroactive early entry, and are a godsend to theurges. Level up the "intended way" or (or even still combine with your preferred early entry feats and later retrain them away), then rebuild in one or more chunks to trade those levels of base classes for more MT. This can be done by level 7.

As long as you retain a level in both of your base casting classes, you're good. Cheese is subjective, but my tastes find that this can be much cleaner than finagling messier or more debated methods (and some prestige classes allow this already anyway)- plus, the fluff even fits, ase character is turning even more of their focus from independent pursuits to the prestige class that merges them.