Making Heavy Armor Master scale

[Oramac]

First, I'm fully aware that it doesn't actually need to scale, but as a thought experiment, how would you make it scale if you were so inclined?

"[Normal text, plus the following] Beginning at 7th level, you gain this bonus against B/P/S damage from magical and non-magical weapons. Additionally, you may reduce damage taken from these weapons by 3 + half your total levels, rounded down."

This way it doesn't become obsolete when magical weapons are introduced, and the player feels like their investment in a Feat actually means something when they get hit at higher levels.

[SharkForce]

it does scale. it scales with number of opponents, and it scales with number of attacks per opponent. as you go up levels, you should expect to be facing larger groups of weak opponents, or opponents that have more than one attack.

maybe the only thing i would suggest is that if you have magical heavy armour, it continues to provide its protection against magical attacks as well. that's about it.

[imneuromancer]

in theory you could make it your proficiency bonus. Getting up to 5 or 6 DR is pretty powerful, but then again that is when you reach pretty high level.

[Arkhios]

3 + half the total level is a bit too much. At 20th you'd take 13 damage less from all weapon attacks. That combined with resistance to B/P/S (by that level you're definitely going to have it somehow) means you'd have to take 27+ damage per hit before you get even a scratch. For the most part, you wouldn't take any damage from weapons at all unless they crit.

If I were to scale it, I might do any one of the following:
A) your proficiency, minimum 3. Almost the same as written, except it would improve.
B) half your proficiency + 3. Climbing up to a maximum of 6. Basically same as option A, but starts out a bit stronger, diminishing to equal in the end.
C) your proficiency + 3 might be a bit too strong as well, but not as much as 3 + half total level.

[CantigThimble]

3 + half the total level is a bit too much. At 20th you'd take 13 damage less from all weapon attacks. That combined with resistance to B/P/S (by that level you're definitely going to have it somehow) means you'd have to take 27+ damage per hit before you get even a scratch. For the most part, you wouldn't take any damage from weapons at all unless they crit.

If I were to scale it, I might do any one of the following:
A) your proficiency, minimum 3. Almost the same as written, except it would improve.
B) half your proficiency + 3. Climbing up to a maximum of 6. Basically same as option A, but starts out a bit stronger, diminishing to equal in the end.
C) your proficiency + 3 might be a bit too strong as well, but not as much as 3 + half total level.

How about proficiency +1? It's pretty similar but you don't need to deal with dividing odd numbers.

[Oramac]

Good points everyone. Thanks for the pointers!


How about proficiency +1? It's pretty similar but you don't need to deal with dividing odd numbers.

I think this would work best given the previous discussion, so long as you include the text that it also works against magic weapons.

Not working against magic weapons makes it much less attractive after about 5th or 6th level.

[DracoKnight]

3 + half the total level is a bit too much. At 20th you'd take 13 damage less from all weapon attacks. That combined with resistance to B/P/S (by that level you're definitely going to have it somehow) means you'd have to take 27+ damage per hit before you get even a scratch. For the most part, you wouldn't take any damage from weapons at all unless they crit.

If I were to scale it, I might do any one of the following:
A) your proficiency, minimum 3. Almost the same as written, except it would improve.
B) half your proficiency + 3. Climbing up to a maximum of 6. Basically same as option A, but starts out a bit stronger, diminishing to equal in the end.
C) your proficiency + 3 might be a bit too strong as well, but not as much as 3 + half total level.

How do you likely have resistance to B/P/S at 20th level? IIRC only the barbarian gets flat resistance to all B/P/S, and war clerics only get resistance to nonmagical B/P/S. The barbarian doesn't function well while wearing heavy armor, in fact IIRC, Rage doesn't work if you're wearing heavy armor. Correct me if I am wrong, I'm AFB.

[Ruslan]

I would just reduce the damage by your proficiency bonus. Starts with -2, slightly weaker than the original, but we all know even a reduction of 2 is plenty good on low levels, and scales up to -6. If you really really insist on not making it worse than the original at any point, "proficiency, minimum 3" is okay.

[Arkhios]

How do you likely have resistance to B/P/S at 20th level? IIRC only the barbarian gets flat resistance to all B/P/S, and war clerics only get resistance to nonmagical B/P/S. The barbarian doesn't function well while wearing heavy armor, in fact IIRC, Rage doesn't work if you're wearing heavy armor. Correct me if I am wrong, I'm AFB.

I believe there are spells/magic items/what not the further up you go to receive resistance to damage.

Technically, you can rage while wearing heavy armor. You just won't get all of the benefits from it.
Totem Warrior features work while in heavy armor, because they do not explicitly state otherwise. Bear Totem will grant you resistance to all damage except psychic, whether or not you were in heavy armor, as long as you're raging. Perhaps not the most efficient nor optimal dip into barbarian if you want only that from rage, but it's there if you did.

As an example, from the Bear/Eagle/Wolf totems, the Eagle Totem Spirit explicitly mentions you must not wear heavy armor for the feature to apply. Bear and Wolf Totem Spirits do not.

[DracoKnight]

I believe there are spells/magic items/what not the further up you go to receive resistance to damage.

Technically, you can rage while wearing heavy armor. You just won't get all of the benefits from it.
Totem Warrior features work while in heavy armor, because they do not explicitly state otherwise. Bear Totem will grant you resistance to all damage except psychic, whether or not you were in heavy armor, as long as you're raging. Perhaps not the most efficient nor optimal dip into barbarian if you want only that from rage, but it's there if you did.

If you do not get the BENEFITS of Rage, how are you getting resistances, whether they come from the base or from the Totem Warrior?

[Isidorios]

It's another Feat that isn't broken.

So stop trying to "fix" it.

[DracoKnight]

It's another Feat that isn't broken.

So stop trying to "fix" it.

Obviously there are gaming groups who feel it is. Just saying "it isn't broken" helps no one. If you don't wish to help, or aren't providing anything to back up your claim, why are you wasting your time commenting? Without anything to back up your position, you're not going to change anyone's mind.

[Arkhios]

If you do not get the BENEFITS of Rage, how are you getting resistances, whether they come from the base or from the Totem Warrior?

Rage itself is a stance that grants a list of abilities which may or may not depend on what you wear. The three core abilities are under a statement that you mustn't wear heavy armor. However, it doesn't extend to Totem Warrior's features unless stated otherwise.
You can start rage and remain in rage even when you wear heavy armor. The benefits you gain depend on what you wear (if anything).

[Ruslan]

If you do not get the BENEFITS of Rage, how are you getting resistances, whether they come from the base or from the Totem Warrior?

I can see where Arkhios is coming from, although there is a certain level of rules-laywering to his claim that, yes Bear totem does grant you resistance even when wearing heavy armor. Going carefully through the barbarian class in the PHB we can find:

a. You can enter Rage regardless of whether you're wearing heavy armor or not.
b. While raging, you gain the following benefits as long as you're not wearing heavy armor [list of benefits follows].
c. Flip forward 2 pages to the Bear Totem.
d. While raging, you also gain resistance to all damage except Psychic damage. [heavy armor is not mentioned in this paragraph]

Arkhios' claim is that "the following benefits" only include the benefits described in the same paragraph as the rage ability, and does not include the Bear Totem ability. YMMV of course.

[DracoKnight]

Rage itself is a stance that grants a list of abilities which may or may not depend on what you wear. The three core abilities are under a statement that you mustn't wear heavy armor. However, it doesn't extend to Totem Warrior's features unless stated otherwise.
You can start rage and remain in rage even when you wear heavy armor. The benefits you gain depend on what you wear (if anything).

Okay, you are right about the totem warrior. There is nothing limiting its DR while in heavy armor. However the base Barbarian, and the berserker do not share that. Their resistances do not apply if they are wearing heavy armor.

Rage has three benefits, and they only apply if you are NOT wearing heavy armor:

1) advantage on STR checks and saving throws.
2) the bonus Rage damage.
3) resistance to B/P/S damage.

Unless you go for the bear totem (expensive as a dip for other classes), then you do not gain resistances. In fact there are several other abilities that the Barbarian possesses that don't come into play if they wear heavy armor.