Beginner's gish first approach

[adrew]

Hello everybody!
I have recently started building a new gish PC
I have the following stats rolled: 16-16-14-12-12-11
And i need to fit then into build funny and functional. Starting level: 3

My idea was
Warforged (imnsoniac + shaky flaws) warblade 5/ Arcane Class 1/ Abjurant Champion 5
And then filling with jade phoenix mage

Feats: power attack, adamantine body, still spell, easy metamagic(still)

The idea behind the PC was the one of an heavy armored warrior, swinging his 2handed weapon across the field, using warsage stance to have +10ft movement (to supply for the reduction of adamantine body) and eventually +2 AC. Still spell and easy metamagic avoid arcane spell failure (eliminating somatic components)

But i am not really sure about this choice.
The problems that i have are:
-divine classes are not allowed in this campaign
-i could take no spell failure in light armors (warmage 1 if i remember well), but at the cost of a lesser spell-list. But with this option i could take the feat to increment of one step the armor in which i don't have spell failure, bringing it up to medium, saving the space of still spell and easy metamagic

Any advice in how to proceed? Which arcane class could be the best for this gish? Which armor to use? Would you change race?

Thanks!

[TheFurith]

For an arcane class I'd go Wizard speced into Conjuration. Ditch the familiar and take Abrupt jaunt. It's amazing for mobility, or for not dying. If you can't do that, and if your DM has any idea what it is you won't be able to. Just a wizard will do. Duskblade3 could get you touch spells through your weapon and some situational buffs you can throw on yourself without worrying about CL. Also gets you Combat Casting for free.

If going Warforged Spellsword to take care of that spell failure instead of still spell. Mithril body feat as well, I don't really think Adamantine is worth it. That DR isn't going to amount to a lot really. Still spell costs you your highest level spells to use on everything. Should know that easy Metamatic will do nothing for Still Spell as it cannot lower the cost below +1. Mithril body and Spellsword3 is no spell failure at all. At a cost of 1CL with should be fine because of Abjurant Champion5. Though it could still cost you a spell level depending on how you budget your other classes. But you'd not only retain the feat you'd have spent on still spell, you'd gain one from Spellsword. Feats are good.

Speaking of feats. I'd just go human. Mithril breastplate with twilight enchant and one level of Spellsword and you have no failure and no loss of CL or spells levels. Did I mention a free feat?

Another option is Elf. I don't like Elves but they have a Racial Substitution option called Generalist Wizardry. Bonus Wizard spell per day without having to specialize. If you don't need the feat, that's the best one.

[adrew]

The still spell and easy metamagic one is really a bad error of me!
BTW i like how warforged gives tons of immunities that, at least on paper, seem to be good.

Which other feats should be adressed?
In a combat perspective, i mean.

[Blackhawk748]

I dont think Warforged can take Insomniac, as they cant sleep, so id recommend a different flaw.

[Troacctid]

For a warforged gish, a great nonconventional option is actually artificer. Infusions do a ton of work, spell failure isn't a problem (go ahead and take Adamantine Body!), Metamagic Spell Trigger is pretty overpowered if you want to abuse it for persistomancy, and you get access to excellent racial options, most notably warforged artificer substitution levels from Races of Eberron (the 4th level one is particularly good) and the absolutely amazing Wand Bonding feat from City of Stormreach.

[TheFurith]

The still spell and easy metamagic one is really a bad error of me!
BTW i like how warforged gives tons of immunities that, at least on paper, seem to be good.

The immunities aren't bad. But there's usually a spell for that. Or an item.

Though I'd have thought you were going warforged because of the lack of divine spells. You'd be able to heal yourself with repair spells. Without those, or divine magic, and the warforged not healing naturally. Well...that's going to be a short game. With the repair spells you'd have a marked advantage on everyone.


Which other feats should be adressed?
In a combat perspective, i mean.

In combat I'd mostly be concerned about buff spells to take care of most things. There's a spell for nearly everything that a combat feat can do. Other than that Knowledge Devotion would give you an easy buff to attacks and damage if you pick up wizard and throw skills into the knowledges that have enemies on them.

Intimidating Strike is basicly a free intimidate. If it works they're shaken for the whole encounter. Which you could then toss more fear spells on them easier and disable them. Or just accept that they have a -2 on saves and attack rolls. Cruel weapon enchant stacks very well with that if you're allowed to take it. Automatic sickened on anyone affected by fear. Easy -4 to everything they do. True Strike this with Power Attack.

That's what's coming to mind right now anyway.

[adrew]

Though I'd have thought you were going warforged because of the lack of divine spells. You'd be able to heal yourself with repair spells. Without those, or divine magic, and the warforged not healing naturally. Well...that's going to be a short game. With the repair spells you'd have a marked advantage on everyone.
It was mainly for that

I don't like a lot artificier, it has a lot less of versatility with respect to a mage, unless you craft countless wands (and you maybe keep up with mage). But my hands are usualy busy with a 2handed weapon, to use a wand

The main idea was to exploit abjurant champion for BAB=CL, and 9th level spell are stronger wrt 5 or 6 level spell of other classes. So for this reason i wanted the mage class, or maybe even sorcerer.

I guess no other class can keep up with them, in terms of magic power and knowledge

[Cerefel]

But my hands are usualy busy with a 2handed weapon, to use a wand

you could use wand chambers and/or wand bracers to make the logistics a bit easier

[Troacctid]

I don't like a lot artificier, it has a lot less of versatility with respect to a mage, unless you craft countless wands (and you maybe keep up with mage).
Spell Storing Item (a 1st level infusion) allows you to charge yourself with any spell of 4th level or lower on the fly. That's any spell, off of any class's spell list. You're one of the most versatile classes in the game even if you never craft a single item.

Also, I misspoke previously—it's not Metamagic Spell Trigger that you use with Persistent Spell, it's the Metamagic Item infusion, which allows you to apply a metamagic feat you know to any item without using any extra charges.

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427628-Disregard-Money-Acquire-Buff-Spells-Artificers-without-the-Artifice) for a guide to what artificers do before you even take into account their item crafting abilities.


But my hands are usualy busy with a 2handed weapon, to use a wand
Take out a few wands at the beginning of the day. Cast buff spells out of them with Persistent Spell. Put your wands away and enjoy your 24-hour buffs.

Wand chambers allow you to use wands in combat as well, if need be.


The main idea was to exploit abjurant champion for BAB=CL, and 9th level spell are stronger wrt 5 or 6 level spell of other classes. So for this reason i wanted the mage class, or maybe even sorcerer.
Your BAB will almost always be lower than your caster level.

[adrew]

These are REALLY interesting news
Thanks for the info guys!!

Meanwhile i go and check these things, please feel free to suggest more ;)

[adrew]

Guys i was thinking...
Is there any way to change warforged type without losing its subtype bonuses?

[Darrin]

Guys i was thinking...
Is there any way to change warforged type without losing its subtype bonuses?

Temporarily or permanently?

(What type are you interested in?)

[Val666]

For a warforged gish, a great nonconventional option is actually artificer. Infusions do a ton of work, spell failure isn't a problem (go ahead and take Adamantine Body!), Metamagic Spell Trigger is pretty overpowered if you want to abuse it for persistomancy, and you get access to excellent racial options, most notably warforged artificer substitution levels from Races of Eberron (the 4th level one is particularly good) and the absolutely amazing Wand Bonding feat from City of Stormreach.

This. Use Wand chambers for cool utility and blasting spells, create a robot army, become Ultron.

[Zaq]

How fast do you plan to level up? Level 3 isn't a great level for gishing it up, since most of the gishes that work well long-term don't come online until around ECL 6-9. Even the build stub you proposed doesn't get any magic for quite a while after level 3, you know? If you've got the patience for that, then that's great and I hope your patience is rewarded, but I personally would feel frustrated if I wanted to be a gish but didn't get any magic until several real-world months had gone by, you know?

There are, of course, some options for being decent with weapons while still having some magic online at level 3, though it's not a guarantee that the options that offer that kind of instant gratification will stay powerful if the game actually does progress into the double digit levels. A Duskblade, as has been mentioned, is perfectly serviceable as a gish early on, and at low levels, they're pretty darn good at what they do. At high levels, though, unless you do some kind of tricks or shenanigans to get access to better magic, their magic kind of scales out of relevance, so they don't have the oomph that someone with access to (for example) the Wizard spell list can bring to bear. (Duskblade spells are famously poor at solving problems that don't involve rolling initiative, for example, while Wizard spells are about the deepest bag of tricks in the game.) But you've gotta balance the immediate game with the long game. Bard might also be a decent choice for you; you have to spend some effort getting your survivability up to snuff, but Bards can certainly do physical combat if you build them right, and they've got some awesome magical options. If the game goes on for a really long time, Bards can easily get into Sublime Chord, which can put you on the fast track for high-level spells if that's what the game demands. I've also heard of Bards being decent Swiftblades, but I don't know if that's always a great choice long-term.

You might also look into going psionic. I know that you said you wanted to be arcane, but hear me out. Ardents and Psychic Warriors are pretty good at being magical while still feeling like warriors (at least if you build them that way, though you can totally build an Ardent as a full caster and just ignore physical combat), and they're functional at low levels. That might be too great a departure from your concept, but it's a thought.

I don't have the time to keep talking much, but I feel like your level is going to be the biggest stumbling block at this point. How fast do you expect to level up, and how willing are you to delay some of your magical power in order to make sure that your high-level character meets your goals? Patience is often a virtue, but if the game ends or your character dies before you get a chance to make them match the concept you wanted to play, that really doesn't seem like a good way to approach something that's supposed to be fun.

[Psyren]

Guys i was thinking...
Is there any way to change warforged type without losing its subtype bonuses?

You mean you want to be a living construct without being a construct? :smalltongue:

[Kaje]

Dragonborn is poorly worded, but seems to result in a humanoid with all preexisting subtypes.

[Darrin]

You mean you want to be a living construct without being a construct? :smalltongue:

Since you tend to retain your existing subtypes, this is easy to do for short durations with a few low-level spells: aberrate, aspect of the wolf, essence of the dragon, etc. Permanent type changes tend to be a little more involved.

[adrew]

Permanent way. I heard of the living construct abuse, and i am tinking about it

Btw, the campaign is going to last long, i guess, but i don't know the level rate because the DM is newcome in this group and i don't know his style. Moreover, it is going to start next week Xd

I apprecciate psionics, i will surely have a look into them.
The problem of starting level 3, and the "feel" of not being a gish until midgame, seems a reasonable problem. But i have patience, and i am not interested in a duskblade solution, i prefer to have more tools available.
For this reason, i have tought of starting warblade 3, in order to have the early damage needed to survive and to reach the desired magic levels.

Do you think beginning mage 3 would be a better solution?

One last question. How much artificer is good in melee? I mean... d6 as HD seems pretty poor; expecially if you have it along all the PC progression. But... artificer 20 and warforged is really tempting, lots of creation feats and lot of utility (access to divine spells, Items, enchantments)

[BowStreetRunner]

Dragonborn is poorly worded, but seems to result in a humanoid with all preexisting subtypes.
The confusion comes from three references within the Races of the Dragon section on Dragonborn.


"The Call of Bahamut" section on page 8 describes the Dragonborn as each entering "the world as a halfling, an elf, a human, or a member of some other humanoid race..."
The "Dragonborn Racial Traits" section on page 8 lists them as "humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth."
The "Mechanics of Rebirth" section on page 10 specifies that "You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race."

[Troacctid]

One last question. How much artificer is good in melee? I mean... d6 as HD seems pretty poor; expecially if you have it along all the PC progression. But... artificer 20 and warforged is really tempting, lots of creation feats and lot of utility (access to divine spells, Items, enchantments)
Depends on which spells you use. Let's say you're a 7th level artificer. Grab a wand of a buff spell, let's say divine power. Use your metamagic item infusion to apply Persistent Spell to it. Spend a 4th level infusion slot with Wand Bonding to activate it without using a charge. Now you've got full BAB and a +6 enhancement bonus to your Strength score for 24 hours. Do the same thing with other buff spells, like swift haste, wraith strike, I dunno, whatever, until you run out of castings of metamagic item. All these buff spells are now layered onto you, making you a big ol' melee powerhouse. It's quite effective.

[barakaka]

Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but couldn't you just do Incarnate Construct template in Savage Species pg 120? I'm not sure if it erases your subtype, but if you're a regular warforged, your type becomes humanoid, and if you're a Warforged Charger, your type becomes giant.


Incarnate Construct is super broken if applied to regular warforged, as it has a -2 LA, which allows you to stack templates on for a net of +0 level adjustment. Probably don't use it for that unless your DM is cool with incredibly broken stuff in his campaign.
If you do lust for more power though, then I can't recommend a vial of dragon's blood enough. I think it's from Dragon Magic. Non-magical polymorph.
For armor, you'll need a Mithril twilight chain shirt. For the price of a +1 bonus on top of the mithral chain, you have no spell failure.
For the caster class, I think sorcerer is best because as above, you can take the Wand Bonding feat at first level instead of a familiar (technically still works with Incarnate Construct, but the flavour is terrible). With a wand chamber in your sword, you'll have the choice of burning wand uses or your own spells.
Since you're a sorcerer, I recommend that wand be Wings of Cover. An immediate action to say no to nearly any single attack or spell, and if you take the Dragonborn template, then you qualify for the dragonblooded portion of the spell. This also increases your CON bonus again, which is always nice. Take the breath weapon version because you're a gish and you're playing this for flashy effects that deal damage.


And lastly, since you wanted to know what to do for feats, you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency of course :smallcool::

Anybody who is anybody uses one of these babies:
310gp alchemy blade (Magic of Eberron p138)
+300gp masterwork
+2500gp alchemical gold (Magic of Faerun p179)
+450gp triple capsule (Complete Adventurer p120)
+100gp <3 quick elements, 1 alchemist's frost> (Complete Adventurer p122)
+100gp wand chamber (DungeonScape)
= 3760


EDIT:
Silly me, I forgot to mention that you can apply the Primordial Giant template if you started as a Warforged Charger (MMIII). Who soever jacketh the mental stats shall haveth the powa!!!! (Translation: you need to jack your casting stat up in order to do any gishery, but after that, you're stylin' as a large, hairless gorilla)

[tyruth]

Not going to lie, but my favorite gish build will always be Duskblade 20. That aside, I'd be with the others who recommend going into Artificer; the self healing is the main reason, but it also contains access to virtually all the buffs you could ever want as a Warforged (since you can't just pick up any piece of magical armour off the ground to wear) though do note that if Eberron material is allowed; repair minor damage is a wizard spell.

If you do go wizard, Abjurer or Diviner (the latter for the only one banned school) would be my choices. Abjurant champion is the strongest choice for tanky gishes though can be quite cheesy so you may want to ignore that. Martial Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9-10/Abjurant Champion 4-5 is the typical magical gish build, or Crusader or Warblade 1/Wu Jen 5/Jade Pheonix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4 if you want to go down the tome of battle route and abuse the Emerald Immolation + Transcendent Mortality combo