Sneak Attack Advice? (Psychic Rogue)

[Shortstuff]

So, I've been debating between a melee-centric Psychic Rogue or a ranged one. I'm thinking that I'll go with ranged because not having Weapon Finesse at level 1 really, really sucks when you're a melee rogue.

NOTE: I'd normally talk this over with my party members, but in this scenario, I don't even know who my party members are or what skills they'll have. Moreover, they're already going to have builds made, and we were asked to avoid playing Tier 1 characters unless they were severely unoptimized. Given that, I'm looking at trying to make a build that can make its enemies susceptible to sneak attacks all by itself.

I've got three routes I'm thinking of going, and I want some opinions.

ROUTE 1: Feinting shenanigans

I did some digging, I read the Psychic Rogue handbook, and I came upon a weird combination of feats and abilities that could prove pretty interesting. Namely...


Bow Feint - I always thought this was crappy, and I still think it is on its own. You pay a feat tax to use a ranged weapon to Feint. Wow.
Improved Feint - Okay, so with some DM permission, I'm allowed to apply Feint-oriented feats to Bow Feint, including this. Perform Bow Feint as a move action. Alright...
Surprising Riposte - Still a move action, but now my foe is flatfooted for the whole round, meaning he's able to be sneak attacked with impunity. Unfortunately, I'm down to a single action. Crap.
Group Fake-Out (Skill Trick) - Feint a whole group at once (at some penalties). Okay, interesting.
Hustle (Psychic Rogue Manifestation) - Gain an extra move action. Y'know, to allow yourself a full attack while feinting an entire group of enemies and making them flatfooted for the whole round.


This biggest weakness here is how goddamned feat intensive this is. I'm able to get either 4 or 5 feats at level 1, but so many of those would be burned to make this come online. It would be much easier to just summon a monster and have it grapple the enemy or toss some marbles or what-have-you.

(And let's not forget that there are plenty of creatures immune to Feint, or that have huge bonuses against it.)

Now, I can get this setup online by level 9. The trouble is that I'm lacking some serious damage boosters: No Craven, no Crossbow Sniper, no TWF or Imp. TWF with hand crossbows, you name it. I can splash Fighter at level 12 to get TWF + Imp. TWF (going pure Psychic Rogue 'til 11 so I can grab Skill Mastery), but dipping weakens me as a manifester and makes me worse at roguery.

Route 1.1 - I could also try getting Bow Feint and Surprising Riposte, but instead go a blasty way. Split Ray + my manifestations + Psychic Rogue sneak attack is much less costly for me than the above setup (needs Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Split Ray and Surprising Riposte, but that's it). But the Sneak Attack seems to only apply to the first ray, not both. Either way, this leaves room for Psionic Shot and potentially Psionic Meditation (which can also be used with Hustle to get more Psionic Shots).

ROUTE 2: Bags of tricks

Much less intensive, but it presents its own problems. Basically, UPD and Manifest the crap out of everything.

At level 1, I grab Hidden Talent (Astral Construct). I use this thing to grapple monsters. I shoot the monsters. I use UPD to manifest other things that might be useful, and depend on having a big bag of tricks to ruin people's days. Marbles, summons, grease, you name it.

But the trouble is that Psychic Rogues don't get Improved Invisibility. I'm allowed to use my UPD as UMD, but at a -10 penalty, so my likelihood of succeeding in that regard is... crappy. So any sneak attack capabilities I get need to come from somehow penalizing my opponents or sniping, and sniping is kind'a crappy.

(Although... Is it possible to Greater Manyshot when sniping? Standard Action > Greater Manyshot, Move Action > Hide?)

Another problem is that the easiest solution (Astral Construct) makes me miss 20% of the time (IIRC) because my ally is providing concealment to my opponent. Not fun. Marbles work only against opponents of a certain size, I still need to spend a feat to get Grease (or else make my Psicrystal take Hidden Talent and then Feat Leech it away)... Problems.

ROUTE 3: Just go melee

The least costly solution, but it sucks for one very specific reason: the highest level I'll start off as in this campaign is 2. If I want to stay pure Psychic Rogue until at least 11, that means I've got to wait until level 3 to grab Weapon Finesse (since it requires BAB +1). This... this is really problematic.

To put it this way: my character is small sized and will have somewhere between 6 or 8 strength to start off at. Their BAB is going to be 1 at level 2. That means that I'll have a whopping +1 AB without Weapon Finesse. If I wanted to TWF, make that -1. If I charge, I can get to a grand total of +3 AB.

Yeah, I'm not liking that.

Now, it's not all bad. I do start with the first level power Compression, and I can use that to shrink myself and make myself get more AB (+1 more, to be exact). However, since I only have 4 Power Points at level 2, I can cast it... well, if I want a duration in minutes, I can make it last 2 minutes. And it takes a standard action to manifest. Once a day. Crap.

The obvious solution would be to dip Fighter or Swashbuckler for a single level at 2. But then I come into several problems: skill point deficiencies (I'd presumably be the party trap monkey), not getting Hustle until level 10, not getting Skill Mastery until level 12... I also fall behind as a manifester. I get an immediate return, but is it worth it?

I've already gotten a lot of leeway from my GM, so asking for Weapon Finesse to not require BAB +1 seems like I'd be pushing it.

The good news is that if I stay pure Psychic Rogue, by level 9 I could be TWFing the place up, have plenty of tricks to get SAD with (including ACTUALLY FLANKING THINGS), and if I really wanted to, I could go the same "Surprising Riposte" route that the first build goes.


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Okay. With all that said, what would you folks suggest? Also, is there anything obvious I'm missing?

[Troacctid]

ROUTE 1: Feinting shenanigans
You can immediately rule this one out. Feinting is crap.


Another problem is that the easiest solution (Astral Construct) makes me miss 20% of the time (IIRC) because my ally is providing concealment to my opponent.
The cover only gives them a small AC bonus. Your miss chance is actually 50%, because you're firing into a grapple without Improved Precise Shot, so your target is selected at random between the enemy and the astral construct.

A better way to deny Dex to AC against ranged attacks with a 1st level power from Hidden Talent (if that's your goal) might be Sensory Gloom. It allows a saving throw, but it's also an extremely potent debuff if it works, and it's a generally good power that has noncombat applications too.


Now, it's not all bad. I do start with the first level power Compression, and I can use that to shrink myself and make myself get more AB (+1 more, to be exact). However, since I only have 4 Power Points at level 2, I can cast it... well, if I want a duration in minutes, I can make it last 2 minutes. And it takes a standard action to manifest. Once a day. Crap.
Since the augment costs 2 power points, you can't use it until ML 3 anyway.


Okay. With all that said, what would you folks suggest? Also, is there anything obvious I'm missing?
You could try taking Wild Cohort for an animal companion. That's usually a good way to boost early-game power for a squishy character.

[Malimar]

The cover only gives them a small AC bonus. Your miss chance is actually 50%, because you're firing into a grapple without Improved Precise Shot, so your target is selected at random between the enemy and the astral construct.

DMs I've played under have always used this 50% chance of hitting the wrong target when attacking into a grapple rule, but when I went hunting for it I couldn't find it. Where's it hidden?

[Shortstuff]

You can immediately rule this one out. Feinting is crap.

It normally is, but it specifically becomes viable when you can do it and get your full attack. That's the whole point of route 1: Feint, affect multiple foes, still get full attack.

The big problems are just how fricking many enemies you can't affect (some), how many you can affect but have a penalty to trying against (a lot), and how late this comes online (level 9).

Again, feint is normally crap, but very specifically with this combination of effects, it becomes... doable? With a full attack in the same turn, it's an option I'm not immediately throwing into the trash.


A better way to deny Dex to AC against ranged attacks with a 1st level power from Hidden Talent (if that's your goal) might be Sensory Gloom. It allows a saving throw, but it's also an extremely potent debuff if it works, and it's a generally good power that has noncombat applications too.

I'll check this out, thanks.


DMs I've played under have always used this 50% chance of hitting the wrong target when attacking into a grapple rule, but when I went hunting for it I couldn't find it. Where's it hidden?

I haven't done any hunting for the rule yet myself, but I'm curious, too. My google fu hasn't turned up much on the matter.

[Troacctid]

DMs I've played under have always used this 50% chance of hitting the wrong target when attacking into a grapple rule, but when I went hunting for it I couldn't find it. Where's it hidden?
Rules Compendium, page 61, in the grappling section where it belongs.

In the original core rulebooks, it's buried in the combat modifiers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm) section (and in the text of the Improved Precise Shot feat), which is a stupid place for it.


It normally is, but it specifically becomes viable when you can do it and get your full attack. That's the whole point of route 1: Feint, affect multiple foes, still get full attack.

The big problems are just how fricking many enemies you can't affect (some), how many you can affect but have a penalty to trying against (a lot), and how late this comes online (level 9).

Again, feint is normally crap, but very specifically with this combination of effects, it becomes... doable? With a full attack in the same turn, it's an option I'm not immediately throwing into the trash.
It's still not remotely worth the effort. Trust me, you can throw it out.

[Shortstuff]

Noted, thanks. That IS basically what I was thinking after coming up with the setup.

Any other general advice? This is going to be my first Psychic Rogue ever, and it's my first time playing a ranged sneak attacker that I'm not sure will have outside assistance (like Hold Person spells or anything like that). I may end up going melee, but if I do, I REALLY need a way to be useful pre-level 3.

[Troacctid]

There is actually a sneaky way to get Weapon Finesse at level 2, if you do want to go melee. Start out with the Slayer of Dragons feat at level 1, then at level 2, become a Dragonborn of Bahamut. This will cause you to gain the dragonblood subtype, disqualifying you from your previous feat, and, according to the rules for dragonborn, you can then replace it with any feat that you qualify for at your current level.

You can also use any other feat with prerequisites that you would lose upon becoming a dragonborn, such as Weapon Focus (longbow) if you're an elf.

[Shortstuff]

That's a nice and sneaky way of going about it. My complaint is that I'd then be a Dragonborn, and thus be... well, a dragonborn instead of the originally chosen race.

(The originally chosen race being a Strongheart Shoal Halfling that's got the bonus feat, is amphibious, has a swim speed, and would really hate to take the hit to DEX in return for CON.)

[Troacctid]

I mean, you could also take Weapon Finesse at level 3 and use a shortbow until then. It's not like it makes a significant difference to the rest of your build. *shrug*

[Shortstuff]

I mean, you could also take Weapon Finesse at level 3 and use a shortbow until then. It's not like it makes a significant difference to the rest of your build. *shrug*

Yeah, that was kind of my thought, though it's not a happy one. It also means that taking the flaw that gives -2 to ranged attacks is out the window, since that would be really painful at the start.

[Shortstuff]

Also, just did a bit more research. So, even though I lack shield proficiency, I could use a Darkwood Buckler and my shortbow without any penalties? Get +1 AC without problems since the buckler has 0 Armor Check Penalty?

[Psyren]

You can immediately rule this one out. Feinting is crap.

I'm pretty sure I explicitly said this in the very handbook he read too :smallbiggrin:

[Shortstuff]

I'm pretty sure I explicitly said this in the very handbook he read too :smallbiggrin:

You did, but then you threw a curveball at my brain with this one...


Surprising Riposte (DotU): This feat has cupcake prerequisites and is a must for melee Psyrogues - a successful feint renders your target flat-footed, and thus vulnerable, for the entire round. Feinting is a move action (with IF, a prerequisite for this), which would ordinarily preclude full-attacking - but guess which famous 3rd-level power is on your list that lets you convert your swift into a move?

Which made me wonder if it might be worth trying, since ranged sneak attack is otherwise annoying to pull off. And you colored it purple, too. Trickster.

Either way, I've settled on melee, since it's just way easier to do, and feinting isn't going to be necessary so long as I can flank or have the right manifestations.

[Efrate]

There is an assassin spell that lets your feint drop in action cost by one step. Insightful feint from the SpC. With surprising riposte it makes your feint a free action, and gives you a +10 to it, which will help keep it viable for quite a while. The spell is a swift, gives you a free to feint, then a full attack to make all your attacks. Its still sub-optimal but it works.

Swashbuckler is a great dip, gets you finesse for free, a bit of HP and ok skills. Delays you a level but if you do go TWF I would highly recommend it just to save a feat. Sadly I think you can easily get daring outlaw for SA stacking but no sane DM will let you freely advance manifesting with a feat.