DDO question:

[Asmotherion]

First of all, I don't know how many persones on this forum play this game, but I'm rather pleased with it (keeps 3.5 mechanics as close to actual pen and papper as possible on an online game). If you're playing, send me a friend request, I'm Asmotherion.

Second, and most importantly:
Since I love the Warlock as a thing, and always play one (either full warlock or warlock multiclass/dip) in both 3.5 and 5e, I figured it'd be worth the 15 euros to purchase the Warlock Pack. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a satisfied customer... maybe a bit too satisfied may I say? I mean, I was expecting to make some nice blaster caster with my favorite iconic spell-like ability (or cantrip); eldrich blast. However what I was not expecting was what I got... it kinda gives me mixed feelings about this class; from one perspective, I feel like I cheated/bought the most overpowered thing in DDO, yet from an other, I feel like I won DDO.

I mean, the power aquired is amazing. It begins with a mere 1d6+1 dammage (depending on your pact you get Fire/Acid/Sonic), but it becomes so much more... especially with the right choices.

I am only level 3, and already deal 2d6 force + 2d4 fire dammage... per blast. And, eventhough I have not searched through the details, it feels like I can spam my eldrich blast like, 1 per second or so... from builds I've read this speed can become even faster.

End game, maximising the Tainted Scholar tree, I think I get:
9d6 from level progression
10d4 from pact progression
1d6 from tainted lore
4d4 from strong pact
1d6 from penetrating blast
1d6 from Eldritch power

For a total of 12d6+14d4 damage... per blast. I haven't even seen the other trees yet, but I don't think (and hope not) they have other blast boosters. Still, 12d6+14d4 damage on an at will ability, that costs no spell points to cast, and that has no cooldown?

That's an average of 64 damage. Ranging from 26-138 damage. Per hit.

For comparison, finger of death deals 100d2+100 at level 20. Uses a lot of SP to use though, thus makes it balanced. Doesn't say much though, since the warlock has access to finger of death as well...

Did I get something wrong? oh, yeah, I know pact dammage can be saved against, and thus not applied, but seriously, the save DCs of this class are insane... Maybe in PVP pact dammage may be mitigated, but on PVE you may as well count it as always working.

In any case, I am satisfied with the class... I just feel SO satisfied that I almost feel guilty for picking it.

[BannedInSchool]

Yeah, lots of complaints that Warlocks are on the OP side of things. Some people say they're not so much in 20+ content, but I don't know about that first-hand. DDO also rotates through class passes, so in a couple months Monks may be OP. Hahahahahaha. :smallwink:

[Douglas]

Finger of Death's damage is not really that relevant for the comparison. The important effect of Finger of Death is that it, you know, kills. Instantly, no matter how much hp the target has. Provided the target fails a save, true, but you can make that save DC pretty damn high.

No, the proper thing to compare Eldritch Blast to, since it's an at will damage ability, is the other dominant at will damage ability in the game - weapon attacks. And on the scale of weapon damage rates, it's really not that exceptional.

For level 3, a simple +1 greatsword with 20 strength is dealing 2d6+8 per hit at a comparable or even faster attack per second rate, and it's easy to get better than that. For level 20, I don't have any numbers on hand and the math gets complicated and highly build dependent with many different ways to build for damage, but 64 per second is small. Triple that for 200ish spell power (I think that's about the right ballpark for level 20 with gear), and 192 per second is still easily achievable for melee I believe. Getting into epic levels, melee dps can go into the thousands.

[sonofzeal]

I've played a lot of DDO, and although I haven't tried Warlock yet (it's on the list), I can tell you that damage numbers don't really scale from pen-and-paper. All the numbers are higher, sometimes significantly so. A sixth level Sorcerer in D&D who casts Fireball is almost invariably doing 6d6 (average 21), DC 13+Cha. In DDO they'd be doing 6d3+18 (average 30), times spell power boost (let's say 20%, for average 36 damage), with a possibly boosted DC. If they're taking the Fire Savant tree, they might be looking at 9d3+27, with a fire spell power of 50%, for an average damage of 67. And they can do this maybe 40 times per rest. This is without any special effort, at level 6, in AoE damage mind you.

There's definitely a tendency for the locked classes (Monk, Druid, Artificer, Warlock) to be more effective than the base ones, but don't be tricked into thinking you're mindshatteringly more powerful. You're strong, but everything's strong here to a degree.

[wumpus]

I've played a lot of DDO, and although I haven't tried Warlock yet (it's on the list), I can tell you that damage numbers don't really scale from pen-and-paper. All the numbers are higher, sometimes significantly so. A sixth level Sorcerer in D&D who casts Fireball is almost invariably doing 6d6 (average 21), DC 13+Cha. In DDO they'd be doing 6d3+18 (average 30), times spell power boost (let's say 20%, for average 36 damage), with a possibly boosted DC. If they're taking the Fire Savant tree, they might be looking at 9d3+27, with a fire spell power of 50%, for an average damage of 67. And they can do this maybe 40 times per rest. This is without any special effort, at level 6, in AoE damage mind you.

There's definitely a tendency for the locked classes (Monk, Druid, Artificer, Warlock) to be more effective than the base ones, but don't be tricked into thinking you're mindshatteringly more powerful. You're strong, but everything's strong here to a degree.

[tl;dr The point being that Warlocks probably are more powerful than the other classes, but don't expect to get anywhere near cap before they are down in the mix with the rest.]

I've been out of the game for so long to as to be incapable of giving specific advice, I'd like to point out that the last bit isn't quite accurate. Locked classes are [nearly] always more powerful when introduced, but don't expect Turbine to maintain that forever.

Monks: when I started [back during the switch to f2p], they were already more common as a splash class than as a class. Of course, they were good enough to want to unlock as a splash class (for *years* my guild leader [who typically played clerics] insisted that clonks were better than clerics). WARNING: here there be bugs and often the class is OP/nerfed depending on unintended programming issues. Don't expect the good times to last (and be "fixed" by a harsh nerfing rather than fixing the error).
Favored Soul: lots of players switched when it was introduced, and it certainly was more powerful. Often more versatile and allows more options (i.e. melee/healers) than normal clerics. Mine was utterly nerfed when clickies were replaced with casting sticks (before that he could simply gain casting benefits and use "real" swords, after the nerfing he had to chose between casting or melee. Considering that TWF favored souls were generally considered "flavor builds" before the nerfing, you can guess how bad it was [and that was probably before the great TWF nerf]).
Artificer: note, these were always built to be "stupidly overpowered" from levels 1-~12ish, and then dump you out and force you to figure out a way to advance to the point you could throw a blade barrier on your own (and then back to normal power assuming you kite everything). No idea how they work in epic play (which didn't exist when they were introduced).
Druid: a bit too late for me (I was occasionally playing when this dropped, but didn't care). Didn't seem terribly overpowered, but they might have worked on it.
Warlock: no clue.

Compare this to the races:
Drow - typically the "sucker" race designed for whales to buy. Once I unlocked it I built a whole slew of drow and eventually deleted the lot of them (note that when they were introduce the game was said to be drow & dwarves online). Historically there were very few builds that they worked on, but they were pretty good when needed. Might be more effective for that range between unlocking drow and unlocking 32 point builds. From what I've heard the -2 CON is no longer a death sentence (especially in epic), but I doubt that there is still rarely a reason to go with drow.
Warforged - a much better buy, but weirdly enough fits best with "charisma based classes". Make no mistake, a warforged sorcerer is an [heroic levels anyway] OP juggernaut due to self healing and the relative unimportance of DCs with sorcerers. Greatsword bonuses also make the great for favored souls (and charisma is only a "tax stat" and otherwise irrelevant to FVSs). They might make slightly better artificers, but if cannith crafting has been made relevant again, the human dragonmark bonus often makes more sense).
Half Elf - I've only seen half elves in permadeath play (still done? the bugs often kept me from considering restarting permadeath play, and there was no indication the bugs would get any better). Allows for some really weird builds with a "fourth class", but typically worse than humans otherwise. This was from the *introduction*, when they were seen as "visually goofy" when announced as 'the beautiful race'.

The point being that Warlocks probably are more powerful than the other classes, but don't expect to get anywhere near cap before they are down in the mix with the rest. If you want to go by history, buying warforged (especially with the free class sorcerer) will often always be a bit more powerful than purely free race/classes.

[BannedInSchool]

DDO also rotates through class passes, so in a couple months Monks may be OP. Hahahahahaha. :smallwink:
Okay, not a couple of months. The Monk OP-ing is going to the preview server next week.

[wumpus]

Okay, not a couple of months. The Monk OP-ing is going to the preview server next week.

Well that's the plan. How buggy do you think the monk changes will be? Which, if any, handwraps will work this time*? And did they really plan on the monkcher and n-thousand star shriken throwers?

* Come to think about it, the monks weren't so much buggy as the handwraps (pretty much from the start, notice a lack of greensteel handwraps and well beyond both expansions).

[BannedInSchool]

Well that's the plan. How buggy do you think the monk changes will be? Which, if any, handwraps will work this time*?

Without looking it up, most of the Monk changes were just increasing effects, moving them from one stance to another, or removing a stance restrictions. Making handwraps two-handed weapons that benefit from two-weapon feats sounds ripe for bugs, but then "handwraps are things that occupy both hands, aren't weapons, but do have on-hit effects when you're fighting unarmed (which as handwraps aren't weapons you're unarmed when using them)" wasn't great. I suppose there could be some non-Monks using handwraps to fight unarmed and they'll be unhappy that handwraps are going to be an Exotic weapon requiring proficiency. But if it makes handwraps behave for 99.9% of the people who use them then too bad. :smalltongue: