colossal vs fine creature

[Zhentarim]

Which would win?

[Shortstuff]

Neither. They would form a symbiotic bond where the small one feeds off microscopic nasty stuff on the big one, and in return keeps it clean.

[Âmesang]

Hot Skitty on Wailord action?

[Psyren]

Whichever one has spellcasting

[Kelb_Panthera]

Look at it from the perspective of each of these creatures.

How do you fight a mountain?

How do you fight a flea?

I can't even imagine how such creatures would come into conflict.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Whichever one has spellcasting
This. If they both have casting, the Fine creature is harder to hit and spot, but has the same spells, save DC, caster level, and damage/effects. Depending on how you build them, it'll have fewer wasteful RHD as well, which may increase casting in the case of an equal HD matchup, though in the case of (for example) racial wizard/sorcerer casting, the RHD is usually better than the class HD.

[Necroticplague]

Which would win?

Size category doesn't tell you a lot about a creature, so the most accurate answer I can give is 'depends on the particular creatures'.

[Strigon]

I can't even imagine how such creatures would come into conflict.

What, you've never caught a cold?

[Kelb_Panthera]

What, you've never caught a cold?

While technically within the scope of collosal vs fine, that's a bit bigger difference in size than I suspect was intended, though I may be reading more into the question than it's asking.

Even so, not one that was -intentionally- trying to do me harm. Viruses just do what they do without any concept of a larger creature or of anything at all, really. It's a little iffy to even classify them as living organisms, last I heard.

[Malimar]

In D&D, a germ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_VpkXd1TKA) would be a Disease, not a Creature of any size category.

[Zhentarim]

Several hundred feet tall vs and inch tall

[Necroticplague]

Several hundred feet tall vs and inch tall

Still not much help. A singularity may be infinitesimal in size, but it certaintly beats out a gas giant several million magnitudes larger than it when the two meet. It all depends on the exact details of the creatures.

[No brains]

In general, being colossal gives a creature a little more because there are minimum HD for colossal creatures. That means that creature type could partially or totally offset the penalties to attacks and reflex saves.

Though if the fine creature were allowed to hide, it could probably starve out the colossal creature. If the small creature could guarantee a siege situation, it would have a marked advantage in outlasting its hungrier enemy.

[EndocrineBandit]

I think the fine creature would win in a fight. Fell the greater foe? If the creature is so small the big one can't see it, would sneak attack damage and such apply? Mosquito's bite skill trick, shadow hand feat for dex-to-damage.

[ekarney]

I think what we're both missing and adding in are variables
The OP was colossal creature vs fine creature

The only difference should be the size, and modifiers it grants.

So, let's say we have:
Humanoid
1HD
Fighter
Both have improved unarmed fighting. (Or the feat that removes the penalty from fist fighting)
The other feat is blank.
Stat array (pre size mods)
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 11

And from there we should figure it out

[EndocrineBandit]

If that's the case then it's a toss-up. The fine individual would likely come out on top, though. I believe, statistically, the fine would have a much higher chance to hit and not be hit than the colossal version.

[Inevitability]

Assuming no class levels, only a single humanoid HD.

Colossal creature: 42 strength, 6 dexterity and 26 constitution.
Attack has +8 to hit and deals 2d6+16 points of damage. AC is 16. HP is 12.

Fine creature: 1 strength, 18 dexterity and 8 constitution.
Attack has +3 to hit and deals 1 damage (and by strict RAW: 0). AC is 22. HP is 3.

It seems obvious who's going to win here.

[Necroticplague]

The unarmed attack of a Fine creature doesn't do any damage, so that problem is solved easily under those conditions.

[Inevitability]

The unarmed attack of a Fine creature doesn't do any damage, so that problem is solved easily under those conditions.

Even if you give them the biggest weapons available, the Fine character never deals more than a single point of damage per attack (1d4-5) while the Colossal guy is still OHKO'ing his foe.

[ekarney]

Well there's our answer!
Now we can assume that even if we add more HD, or class levels or whatever (keeping everything in control of course, so same feats, same classes etc), so long as the only difference between the two is the size and everything they grant it's pretty safe to say the bigger guy wins.
Except for in a few select scenarios, for example the build they both use dex to damage and hit, then there's a larger chance that the fine creature will win.

Earlier in the thread there was talk about magic, but the more magic gets involved the less it actually becomes about the physical traits (which are the ones affected by size modifiers)

[Necroticplague]

Earlier in the thread there was talk about magic, but the more magic gets involved the less it actually becomes about the physical traits (which are the ones affected by size modifiers)

Magic also makes touch AC more relevant, which is of considerable advantage to the fine creature.

[Flickerdart]

The Colossal creature has a few advantages beyond stats. Reach is a big one - the Fine creature will have to enter the Colossal creature's square to attack it, but its own movement speed would likely be very low due to its size. For example, the Puppeteer has a move speed of 5 feet, so a Colossal creature could constantly retreat with 5ft steps as it approached, and then whack it with superior reach. Grappling is another advantage, since the Fine creature's Dexterity does not help it to resist or escape (except through Escape Artist checks, but that takes a standard action).

As soon as magic enters the picture, everything else becomes irrelevant. The Colossal creature still has a slight edge on saves (higher CON saves against death, higher DEX only reduces damage) but the battle will be decided by the kind of magic available to participants. The Fine creature's advantage in touch attack rolls and AC may not matter too much if its enemy does not use rays, or it has no access to ranged touch attack spells.

[Inevitability]

The Colossal creature has a few advantages beyond stats. Reach is a big one - the Fine creature will have to enter the Colossal creature's square to attack it, but its own movement speed would likely be very low due to its size. For example, the Puppeteer has a move speed of 5 feet, so a Colossal creature could constantly retreat with 5ft steps as it approached, and then whack it with superior reach. Grappling is another advantage, since the Fine creature's Dexterity does not help it to resist or escape (except through Escape Artist checks, but that takes a standard action).

Well what you're saying makes perfect sense, increasing or decreasing size doesn't influence speed according to the 'improving monsters' section (which I believe we're using here). It's silly, but so is most of the game.


As soon as magic enters the picture, everything else becomes irrelevant. The Colossal creature still has a slight edge on saves (higher CON saves against death, higher DEX only reduces damage) but the battle will be decided by the kind of magic available to participants. The Fine creature's advantage in touch attack rolls and AC may not matter too much if its enemy does not use rays, or it has no access to ranged touch attack spells.

This. Not to mention that if there's a situation where being very small would be advantageous, the colossal creature can shrink down to Diminutive with a 1st-level spell, while the fine creature would be needing much higher-level magic if being large is desirable.

[Flickerdart]

Well what you're saying makes perfect sense, increasing or decreasing size doesn't influence speed according to the 'improving monsters' section (which I believe we're using here). It's silly, but so is most of the game.
Reach will still play a huge role - your basic 30ft/round humanoid, if shrunk to Fine size, would need to move more than its speed to go from out of the Colossal human's reach into its own attack range. He could Charge, which provokes an AoO against a reduced AC, or he could Tumble, which denies him the opportunity to make his own attack. Either way, he's standing next to an angry pile of muscles that's raring up for a full attack.

[Jay R]

The one with the most effective player.

[Vizzerdrix]

I think what we're both missing and adding in are variables
The OP was colossal creature vs fine creature

The only difference should be the size, and modifiers it grants.

So, let's say we have:
Humanoid
1HD
Fighter
Both have improved unarmed fighting. (Or the feat that removes the penalty from fist fighting)
The other feat is blank.
Stat array (pre size mods)
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 11
Wis 11
Cha 11

And from there we should figure it out

In this strange vaccume, the larger one has an advantage, but this is hardly a good test of what size is better.

[Flickerdart]

The one with the most effective player.
The general assumption in a "this thing or that thing" comparison is all else being equal. Otherwise it would be meaningless to ask any sort of question at all. How do I build a mage-killer? Doesn't matter, just be a good player. Which spells should I learn? Doesn't matter, just be a good player. Should I be a Swordsage or a Monk? Doesn't matter...you get the idea.

[Jay R]

The general assumption in a "this thing or that thing" comparison is all else being equal. Otherwise it would be meaningless to ask any sort of question at all. How do I build a mage-killer? Doesn't matter, just be a good player. Which spells should I learn? Doesn't matter, just be a good player. Should I be a Swordsage or a Monk? Doesn't matter...you get the idea.

Let me fill in the part I though was implied.

If a colossal creature were always, or mostly, able to defeat an equivalent fine creature, I'd have answered "The colossal one."

If a fine creature were always, or mostly, able to defeat an equivalent colossal creature, I'd have answered "The fine one."

But since neither of those is inherently the case, the crucial observation is that a fine creature played well can beat a colossal creature played at an average level, and a colossal creature played well can beat a fine creature played at an average level.

This was succinctly stated by saying, "the one with the more effective player".

[ekarney]

In this strange vaccume, the larger one has an advantage, but this is hardly a good test of what size is better.

Well the OP was a little vague as all we got was "Who would win?" with the size being the only difference so I figured that should be the only difference between the two, otherwise it just gets weighted in the favor of one or the other for reasons outside of size.

[Zhentarim]

Think 2 commoners.

[Soranar]

feats could make or break this competition

for example

the fine creature (which was statted as 18 DEX) could have crossbow sniper (assuming 2 feats and BAB +1)

a fine light crossbow deals 1d2 damage +2 (from crossbow sniper)
which means an average of 3.5 damage per round
and +7 to hit (3 from size, 4 from DEX)
for 12 hitpoints, that means at least 4 rounds of shooting before the fine creature brings down the collossal guy

collossal guy has +8 to hit and only needs to hit once

so unless the fine creature is really really lucky... it's not going to be pretty

[Flickerdart]

Let me fill in the part I though was implied.

If a colossal creature were always, or mostly, able to defeat an equivalent fine creature, I'd have answered "The colossal one."

If a fine creature were always, or mostly, able to defeat an equivalent colossal creature, I'd have answered "The fine one."

But since neither of those is inherently the case, the crucial observation is that a fine creature played well can beat a colossal creature played at an average level, and a colossal creature played well can beat a fine creature played at an average level.

This was succinctly stated by saying, "the one with the more effective player".
An actually useful comment could have been phrased along the lines of "the size isn't important" instead of giving a vague and unhelpful reply. And hey, guess what? You'd still be wrong, because it does matter, as evidenced in the thread already. But at least you'd come across as someone interested in the discussion, and not just posturing.

[ayvango]

fine d2 crusader would kill colossal creature in single blow.

[Inevitability]

fine d2 crusader would kill colossal creature in single blow.

Colossal creature would kill fine creature in a single blow by virtue of being colossal, while having a better to-hit and getting an AoO when the Fine creature approaches.

[Calthropstu]

terrain would play a huge part. Movement speed and type as well. Can the fine creature tumble into total cover? such as an anthill?

Can the fine creature burrow? Fly? if all else is equal, the ways in which the terrain may be used alters everything. Diminutive creatures tend to use terrain more than anything. Think of the way the cockroach skitters under objects, or the way the spider lurks in corners.

If both have poison, that becomes a factor as well, as a good dex poison would lay that big guy out in a heartbeat.

it really does come down to what abilities they have, even if those abilities are the same. And if they have supreme instagib spells such as miracle, wish, disintegrate, or other nasty spells which will simply end the fight... initiative is a thing. So the more powerful the characters, the more that initiative is likely to swing the odds towards the little guy's favor.

[The Insanity]

The one that's more powerful.

[Sandsarecool]

feats could make or break this competition.
If only we had more information... rough HD? Levels? Are these things even humanoid?

I'd put my money on the smaller guy at mid-high levels. Though that's only because I've seen it done before.
Feats such as Underfoot Combat destroy the AoO advantage of anything big.
Magic is well, Magic, so there you go. Increase your speed speed, teleport, actually do something useful with your magic, etc.
Hell, take something like Confound the Big Folk and throw in a few levels of rogue.
Or go Bo9S on it and take Giant-Killing stance. Not nearly as useful as the others, but every little bit helps, I suppose.

At lower levels? Probably the big guy. You can see why.


Think 2 commoners.
Uh, of what level? Hell, what can we access here? Peasant hat? :smalltongue:
More seriously, at low levels Colossal Commoner 1 HULK SMASH Fine Commoner 1 most of the time. Things still go awry at higher levels. Tactics (and thus, the guys behind the sheets) and such make a massive difference in combat like this.

[No brains]

Think 2 commoners.

This extra info might help because a (an assumed human) commoner 1 might not get access to the bonus HD of being colossal or the fractional HD of fine size.

The ultra-low HD keeps feats or spells from playing too big a part in the fight.

[Jormengand]

If we apply only the changes on Table: Big and Little Creatures in Combat, then the fine creature still has enough strength to do reasonable greatsword damage (1d4, though the colossal creature deals 8d6) with each swing, at a +8 hit bonus and with 18 AC, meaning that assuming the average array (or even any vaguely reasonable array), the fine creature will hit the colossal creature on a 2, and the colossal creature will hit the fine creature on a 20. If you use the alterations on Table: Changes to statistics by size, then the colossal creature crushes the fine creature. If we apply the effects as per enlarge person or reduce person from a size of medium, then the fine creature is still almost impossible to hit, and the colossal one still almost impossible to miss, but this time the fine creature's attack does only 1 damage. However, because enlarging and reducing people doesn't change their constitution, the fine creature still wins most of the time.

So, to recap:

Using Table: Big and Little Creatures in Combat: The creatures have always been that size, at least since adulthood. Fine creature probably wins; about 5% chance of colossal creature winning.
Using Table: Changes to Statistics by Size: The creatures have grown or shrunk from medium from advancement. Colossal creature will absolutely destroy fine creature with high probability; negligible chance of fine creature winning.
Using Enlarge Person: The creatures were really medium but have been changed to their new sizes magically. Fine creature probably wins; about 10% chance of colossal creature winning and nonnegligible chance of draw from fine creature staggering colossal creature who then hits and takes damage from using a standard action.

[Zhentarim]

If we apply only the changes on Table: Big and Little Creatures in Combat, then the fine creature still has enough strength to do reasonable greatsword damage (1d4, though the colossal creature deals 8d6) with each swing, at a +8 hit bonus and with 18 AC, meaning that assuming the average array (or even any vaguely reasonable array), the fine creature will hit the colossal creature on a 2, and the colossal creature will hit the fine creature on a 20. If you use the alterations on Table: Changes to statistics by size, then the colossal creature crushes the fine creature. If we apply the effects as per enlarge person or reduce person from a size of medium, then the fine creature is still almost impossible to hit, and the colossal one still almost impossible to miss, but this time the fine creature's attack does only 1 damage. However, because enlarging and reducing people doesn't change their constitution, the fine creature still wins most of the time.

So, to recap:

Using Table: Big and Little Creatures in Combat: The creatures have always been that size, at least since adulthood. Fine creature probably wins; about 5% chance of colossal creature winning.
Using Table: Changes to Statistics by Size: The creatures have grown or shrunk from medium from advancement. Colossal creature will absolutely destroy fine creature with high probability; negligible chance of fine creature winning.
Using Enlarge Person: The creatures were really medium but have been changed to their new sizes magically. Fine creature probably wins; about 10% chance of colossal creature winning and nonnegligible chance of draw from fine creature staggering colossal creature who then hits and takes damage from using a standard action.

I like this!

[Inevitability]

Think 2 commoners.

In that case there is no victor, there is no loser, there is only endless chickens.

[Calthropstu]

I have to disagree with jormangund on this. It REALLY depends on build, terrain, and abilities.

Let's alter this further.
What we have is a single person fighting his clone. They have an item each, one that shrinks down to the size of an ant, the other the size of the tarrasque. We will assume that they are optimimized towards fighting creatures their own size.

If we take each character class available, it is quite clear that melee classes mostly favor the larger, while sneak type and caster type favor the smaller due to initiative. Even at low levels, a wizard has spells such as color spray and sleep.
However, the fortitude save of a coup de grace from the little guy will be... negligible. So if the win condition is "render helpless" we can consider this a win. If the win condition is "kill" a low level ant sized human will have some extreme difficulties succeeding, even with sneak attack builds. Though I suppose poison could be used, that would be restrictively expensive.

This changes as increasing levels are applied. We're going to assume identical equipment, identical stats, identical feats. Optimizing towards fighting creatures their own size. Things can change based on race. For example some races get bonuses when fighting bigger opponents. Others may have auras that deal damage. The latter would be an overwhelming boost to the larger.

So, a serious look here would reveal that an identical build would truly favor one or the other based on build and class.

Monk? Fighter? Ranger? Etc? Fine guy gets trounced.
Wizard? Sorcerer? Cleric? Fine guy gets trounced at low levels unless he can somehow get a load of poison, higher levels big guy goes down more often due to initiative problems.
Rogue? Ninja? Assassin? Same with wizard, though the lower level trouncing probably extends much further maybe even to mid levels due to total **** damage vs massive hit points.

[Jormengand]

I have to disagree with jormangund on this. It REALLY depends on build, terrain, and abilities.

Given the OP clarified that it was two commoners - presumably of some kind of humanoid without any particularly relevant racial abilities - fighting, I don't think that build or abilities come in to it (you get a couple of feats, but they're also probably irrelevant), and terrain will affect both sides equally if it does at all.

Also, I would disagree that the CdG fortitude save will be negligible - DC 11 fortitude or die isn't going to be negligible at low levels and depending on how he got to fine size, the save could be as much as DC 15, which is not an improbable value for the DC on the sleep spell.

[Calthropstu]

Given the OP clarified that it was two commoners - presumably of some kind of humanoid without any particularly relevant racial abilities - fighting, I don't think that build or abilities come in to it (you get a couple of feats, but they're also probably irrelevant), and terrain will affect both sides equally if it does at all.

Also, I would disagree that the CdG fortitude save will be negligible - DC 11 fortitude or die isn't going to be negligible at low levels and depending on how he got to fine size, the save could be as much as DC 15, which is not an improbable value for the DC on the sleep spell.

dc 11 to someone with a con of 27.
It's a 90% success rate with no other modifiers.
And then he's awake. And squishes you.

edit: Also of note, the terrain thing. Ever try to chase down a cockroach? They can simply go into places you can't. What for you is a small pile of debris, for a fine creature is a mansion. In order to get to it, you need to crush that little wood pile to dust. Wanna chase him down in the kitchen? Good luck trying to find him after he has gone into the cabinets. Even destroying the cabinet won't kill him because he can simply make reflex saves. and what do you do when he jumps into an ant hill?

So yes, terrain is a big thing

[Jormengand]

I wouldn't go into most things if the catch was that it had a 10% chance to kill me.

Also, a creature who's hiding from me is a creature who isn't whacking me with a greatsword. I'll take two, thanks.

[Calthropstu]

I wouldn't go into most things if the catch was that it had a 10% chance to kill me.

Also, a creature who's hiding from me is a creature who isn't whacking me with a greatsword. I'll take two, thanks.

which then comes to you when you're not looking and thwacks you some more. Or shoots you from an area you simply can't reach.

Of course, the colossal guy can always simply walk away. It's not like the fine guy can catch up.

[Calthropstu]

You know what? This would be an interesting playground challenge.

Build a character to fight itself. You're fine, it's colossal.

And also the reverse.

[Jormengand]

You know what? This would be an interesting playground challenge.

Build a character to fight itself. You're fine, it's colossal.

And also the reverse.

This varies wildly depending on the three possible rules results of how the creatures actually get to their sizes in the first instance, though. That said, for the fine creature, "Be a rogue and use sneak attack + snipe" and "Be a spellcaster and load up on spells that require ranged touch attacks" seem to be good ideas, whereas for the colossal creature "Be a spellcaster and load up on spells which deal strength damage" is probably the best you're gonna get, practically irrespective of which of the three you use.

[Calthropstu]

This varies wildly depending on the three possible rules results of how the creatures actually get to their sizes in the first instance, though. That said, for the fine creature, "Be a rogue and use sneak attack + snipe" and "Be a spellcaster and load up on spells that require ranged touch attacks" seem to be good ideas, whereas for the colossal creature "Be a spellcaster and load up on spells which deal strength damage" is probably the best you're gonna get, practically irrespective of which of the three you use.

Restrictions then.

Be a fighter and kill yourself. You are fine, he's colossal.

Be a rogue and kill yourself. You're colossal, he's fine.

[Jormengand]

Restrictions then.

Be a fighter and kill yourself. You are fine, he's colossal.

Be a rogue and kill yourself. You're colossal, he's fine.

I suppose that sneak attack fighter and feat rogue are cheating? :smalltongue:

[Zhentarim]

I suppose that sneak attack fighter and feat rogue are cheating? :smalltongue:

I will need to set that game up!

[Calthropstu]

I will need to set that game up!

By all means. I would love to see the results.