So I hear 2 levels of warlock solves everything...

[Draco4472]

I'm playing in a weekly campaign using a Rogue/Sorcerer, using the Swashbuckler and Storm sorcerer archetypes from the SCAG. I currently like how the character plays, having just reached Rogue 4/Sorcerer 1. I intend to take more sorcerer levels first, but would it be worth dipping into warlock for anything? Armor of Shadows is one thing I've been looking at but I'm curious to see what potential Swashsorlock builds could look like. My race is Dragonborn and with the sailor background if that helps, and I intend to be more caster then anything else with melee abilities, inspired by a Ranger/Cleric build I played for CoS and turned out being one of my favorite characters I've played in 5e. I chose Swashbuckler mainly for it's sailor-fitting themes (in addition to abusing my high Charisma modifier) and storm sorcerer for the same reason in addition to later-leveled melee potential with most of its features.

Thoughts on the Swashsorlock?

[Toadkiller]

Meh.

Thing is, do what's fun. You're going to be told that eldrich blast is the be all. If that sounds fun go for it.

[mgshamster]

Two levels of warlock? Sure.

But at what cost?

[lunaticfringe]

+1 Studded Leather=Mage Armor, just saying. Unless you wanna buff a wizard.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm playing in a weekly campaign using a Rogue/Sorcerer, using the Swashbuckler and Storm sorcerer archetypes from the SCAG. I currently like how the character plays, having just reached Rogue 4/Sorcerer 1. I intend to take more sorcerer levels first, but would it be worth dipping into warlock for anything? Armor of Shadows is one thing I've been looking at but I'm curious to see what potential Swashsorlock builds could look like. My race is Dragonborn and with the sailor background if that helps, and I intend to be more caster then anything else with melee abilities, inspired by a Ranger/Cleric build I played for CoS and turned out being one of my favorite characters I've played in 5e. I chose Swashbuckler mainly for it's sailor-fitting themes (in addition to abusing my high Charisma modifier) and storm sorcerer for the same reason in addition to later-leveled melee potential with most of its features.

Thoughts on the Swashsorlock?

I would stick with the Swasherer. Your casting and at-will damage potential will be high enough that a dip into Warlock won't help much.

[quinron]

You're being told to take two warlock levels for Agonizing Blast; that's why everyone everywhere is always told to take warlock 2. Or at least, that's the reason I always see given. Keep in mind that most of your rogue features aren't going to work with eldritch blast: no Sneak Attack because it's a spell not a weapon (and Rakish Audacity gears your rogue levels more toward Sneak Attack), no Fancy Footwork because it's a ranged attack not a melee attack, no movement from Tempestuous Magic because it's a cantrip. Warlock will give you a very specific kind of power that doesn't gel at all with your abilities; the only crossover you're going to see is Rakish Audacity's initiative bonus coming from CHA, but the lack of ASIs from triple-classing means you probably can't afford to do anything but ranged casting if you dip warlock.

Basically: What EvilAnagram said, with the added restriction that if you take the warlock levels, you'll be lagging behind if you want to get back into roguery.

[Corran]

I would stick with the Swasherer. Your casting and at-will damage potential will be high enough that a dip into Warlock won't help much.
+1
It is not worth delaying your spell progression, metamagic and sorcery points (you will need each and every one of them) for becoming slightly better in areas where you are already good.

ps: Perhaps 1 level of warlock would be optimal, though only if taken at a high enough levels, when you will have high level spell slots to be used with AoA. This (AoA upcast), will add a lot of survivability to your squishy skirmisher. Though as I said, it is only something to consider when you hit the high levels.

[Citan]

I'm playing in a weekly campaign using a Rogue/Sorcerer, using the Swashbuckler and Storm sorcerer archetypes from the SCAG. I currently like how the character plays, having just reached Rogue 4/Sorcerer 1. I intend to take more sorcerer levels first, but would it be worth dipping into warlock for anything?
Not good enough.
Basically, in most cases, people dip...
1 level in Warlock for Hex and Armor of Agathys
2 levels for Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Darkvision or Free Mage Armor...
3 levels for Pacts, Darkness and Mirror Image.

Considering your build...
- Hex: you plan on being caster main, you won't get more than 1/2 attacks. Not worth it when you have, as Sorcerer, so many good Concentration spells.
- Armor of Agathys: you will usually be squishy enough to NOT want to be in melee. And yourself said you intend to be more caster than melee anyways. So not worth the dip.
- Agonizing / Repelling Blast is a great ranged attack that brings a bit of control. But as a mixed Rogue, you probably have great DEX, along with the right proficiencies, so you already have a great ranged attack. While Agonizing Blast would end outright better, it would not be THAT MUCH better, so not enough for dip. Same for the controlish Repelling Invocation.
- Free Mage Armor: Sorcerer can learn it, and spend one 1st level slot per day. Or, since you are Rogue, just stick with your light armor + DEX which will be nearly as good anyways.
- Darkvision: away from book but I'd be very surprised if you didn't already have Darkvision as a Dragonborn. While Devil's Sight is better, still not enough to sacrifice 2 levels.
- Tome Pact: usually for Shillelagh (not good for you because not compatible with Sneak Attack) and Ritual Casting (always good, but only worth it if nobody else in your party could ever get the rituals from either Wizard or Cleric).
- Blade Pact: for your gish, nothing of value.
- Chain Pact: nice scout and magic resistance, can maybe provide advantage (not sure of this)? Anyways, if you really want a pet, taking the Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster feat would be plain better than delaying your Sorcerer progression by 3 whole levels.
- Darkness, Mirror Image: AFB but I'm pretty sure there are on Sorcerer list anyways.

>>> Rogue/Sorc is good, Warlock has nothing truly significant to bring to it (at least for a measly 2 level dip).

[zioth]

I can think of three reasons to multiclass into warlock.



You love the eldritch blast cantrip. As a sorc/warlock, you can quicken it, eventually getting 10 blasts per round at 1d10+5 damage each. If you want to go even crazier, add in two Fighter levels, so you can Action Surge another one, giving you 15 blasts once a day. You'll annoy your DM and the other players though.
You want lots more metamagic at the expense of higher level spells. The warlock's small number of high-level spell slots are great for recharging sorcerer points, which gives you extra metamagic or spell slots. This works best if your group takes a lot of short rests.
It's fun! Forget the super-cantrip. You can get two invocations, giving you better-than-darkvision, or proficiency in social skills, or detect magic all day, or whatever.

[Draco4472]

So in short, Warlock won't do much for me. Not like my chaotic-good character who values freedom above all else even has a reason to sell his soul anyway.:smalltongue:

Thanks for the feedback.

[djreynolds]

Repelling blast is very good, ability to push anybody you hit regardless of size or strength. So yeah, if you can fit it into your build.

[Dalebert]

You're being told to take two warlock levels for Agonizing Blast; that's why everyone everywhere is always told to take warlock 2.

Really? I see it more for folks who want to get the Devil's Sight/Darkness combo. Warlock 2 is the only way to see through magical darkness. If you're a shadow monk, you can cast Darkness but not see through it. Many of your powers only work in darkness but the teleportation doesn't get buffed by magical darkness because you have to see where you're going to use it.

Similarly, a sorcerer could learn Darkness and Devil's Sight would work nice with it. It feels like a crucial dip with a shadow monk but more icing for a sorc.


I can think of three reasons to multiclass into warlock.


You love the eldritch blast cantrip. As a sorc/warlock, you can quicken it, eventually getting 10 blasts per round at 1d10+5 damage each. If you want to go even crazier, add in two Fighter levels, so you can Action Surge another one, giving you 15 blasts once a day. You'll annoy your DM and the other players though.
You want lots more metamagic at the expense of higher level spells. The warlock's small number of high-level spell slots are great for recharging sorcerer points, which gives you extra metamagic or spell slots. This works best if your group takes a lot of short rests.


These are the main synergies for sorcerers to do it. I actually did warlock 3 with my sorcerer and I love him. It's definitely a price that you will feel though. I'm 3 levels behind in getting higher level sorc abilities, particularly higher level spells. However, he's getting first and second level ritual spells from all classes which broaden him quite a bit, gets more spells known as a lock (albeit only 1st and 2nd level but some are staples like Misty Step), has a familiar, can Disguise Self at will, and he gets 4 sorcery points every short rest which he can use for extra metamagic or even to CREATE extra spell slots when time is a luxury. There have been times when I had several extra 4th level slots going into a fight. Honestly, it was excessive. I didn't even end up needing them.

[Talionis]

Not good enough.
Basically, in most cases, people dip...
1 level in Warlock for Hex and Armor of Agathys
2 levels for Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Darkvision or Free Mage Armor...
3 levels for Pacts, Darkness and Mirror Image.

Considering your build...
- Hex: you plan on being caster main, you won't get more than 1/2 attacks. Not worth it when you have, as Sorcerer, so many good Concentration spells.
- Armor of Agathys: you will usually be squishy enough to NOT want to be in melee. And yourself said you intend to be more caster than melee anyways. So not worth the dip.
- Agonizing / Repelling Blast is a great ranged attack that brings a bit of control. But as a mixed Rogue, you probably have great DEX, along with the right proficiencies, so you already have a great ranged attack. While Agonizing Blast would end outright better, it would not be THAT MUCH better, so not enough for dip. Same for the controlish Repelling Invocation.
- Free Mage Armor: Sorcerer can learn it, and spend one 1st level slot per day. Or, since you are Rogue, just stick with your light armor + DEX which will be nearly as good anyways.
- Darkvision: away from book but I'd be very surprised if you didn't already have Darkvision as a Dragonborn. While Devil's Sight is better, still not enough to sacrifice 2 levels.
- Tome Pact: usually for Shillelagh (not good for you because not compatible with Sneak Attack) and Ritual Casting (always good, but only worth it if nobody else in your party could ever get the rituals from either Wizard or Cleric).
- Blade Pact: for your gish, nothing of value.
- Chain Pact: nice scout and magic resistance, can maybe provide advantage (not sure of this)? Anyways, if you really want a pet, taking the Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster feat would be plain better than delaying your Sorcerer progression by 3 whole levels.
- Darkness, Mirror Image: AFB but I'm pretty sure there are on Sorcerer list anyways.

>>> Rogue/Sorc is good, Warlock has nothing truly significant to bring to it (at least for a measly 2 level dip).

This sums it up very well. Warlock is a wonderful wonderful dip at several different breakpoints. What you get is arguably higher than most classes can provide in just a dip, but it has to be stuff you want.

Eldritch Blast is the most powerful cantrip in the game, but you need to have Charisma for it to be at its best, and its hard to use it with sneak attack, although as a plan you can quicken the Eldritch Blast and sneak attack and with repelling blast its a great way to keep one or more monsters off you. It could be great.

Patron Fiend gives you some Temporary Hit Points, that's not terrible and by sneak attacking you should be able to access that.

Warlock Rogue is a great combonation for social and scouting.

Sorcerer Warlock is great to get access to a couple spells and to get slots to use in Metamagic.

But you have a lot going on and you may not want to further hurt your Sorcerer casting by tri classing.

Warlock is a very strong dip, but it really needs to make sense to you and you need to know what you are looking for and think about what you are giving up.

[Joe the Rat]

2 levels of warlock is good. 3 is better. 6 is solid. 10 is golden. After that it's a matter of taste.
Warlock on a rogue is good (stealth,darkness,hexriders,disguiseaholic, and lots of flexibility if you remember you are a rogue and don't build up EB). Warlock on a sorcerer is all sorts of fun (stat synergy, Short Rest spell slots for metamagic recovery, best attack cantrip, the option for ritual casting...) All three is thinning the pool quite a bit. If you intend to Rogue, the breath of magic is nice, but you end up with a lot of low level tricks at the cost of being more rogue. If you intend to be more caster, then a few levels of rogue adds some tricks and utility, but two dips cuts into your high level spell access.

[WereRabbitz]

Don't forget that storyline is a thing as well. Dipping into warlock may be nice from a min/max perspective, but is it fun explaining why every character in every campaign has a demon pact?

Get's old and stale, why not being the person standing out with a more colorful background.

Also the 2 level dip is nice for a lot of people, but it does delay higher level abilities & mess you out of capstone.


Barbarian shooting E-Blast is cool, but not as cool as having 24 str/con

Ancient Paladin with more ranged is nice, but not as cool as it's Trent like Capstone

ect...


If you got a disappointing capstone it could be nice, but otherwise you might have more fun just playing your character. Min/Maxing isn't really needed in 5e your character should be able to handle it's environment with 90% of builds.

[CursedRhubarb]

I've never fully understood the whole MC trend to take a "dip" and only go one or two levels into a second, third, and sometimes even a fourth class. A lot of the ones I hear sound like they may be great for abilities and combat numbers, but make absolutely zero sense to fit into the world in an rp setting.

Ex:
My LG devotion paladin who is sworn to protect from demons and wipe their filth from the world, sells his soul to a pit fiend to gain a level of warlock, because he wants to shoot lasers, see in the dark, and get more thp options.

(This seems a common one that gets mentioned and all I can ever think is "that kinda sounds like breaking your oath as a paladin and would cost you your paladin goodies.")

Also, I would caution anyone that wants to just "dip" warlock for one or two. You still have to bind yourself to the patron and a DM can have fun with that. Play a good or neutral character that bound yourself to a fiend? Well your master wants you to go slaughter some orphans then deficate in their skulls inside a church while eating the raw flesh of said orphan and painting yourself in their blood, or they will either keep your soul and take your powers away . Or take possession of your body and do it themselves.

An extreme example, but highlights the risk you gamble for the reward of lasers and invocations.

[KorvinStarmast]

Dipping into warlock may be nice from a min/max perspective, but is it fun explaining why every character in every campaign has a demon pact?
Ever heard of the Arch Fey? Not a demon. :smallbiggrin: In fact, the Arch Fey makes sense as a patron for any number of elves or half elves who are out adventuring and who may be able to further the Arch Fey's aims/goals.

That said, I agree with your point on "everyone getting a dip" as being cliché and a bit more charop than necessary.

[lunaticfringe]

Yes Archfey definitely makes more sense from a roleplay perspective, but most Warlock dips you come across are Fiend.

I am not an Alignment guy but selling your soul to a Demon for Power that you regularly use makes you Neutral at Best. It's the only real Alignment enforcement I do. Fiend Pacts(all Pacts really) have RP repercussions. That isn't an overworked, big picture God your dealing with. A Patron is a being of Potent but Finite Power; why are they investing that Power in your Character?

[Joe the Rat]

You'd think there's be more GOO dips. getting 3+ thp per kill is a nice fringe boost, but 30' telepathy would be a nice boon for roguish shenanigans - scouting, setting up cons, helping someone else cheat at cards...

[Talionis]

I think its so funny that so many people talk about having a good or bad capstone ability.

How many people play there characters to 20 at all. Don't most pretty much stop playing at 20 when they can no longer level. Now I could see if your campaign starts at 15 and everyone plays at level 20 for long periods of time, by all means put some real thought into losing the capstone.

The similar and from what I see is good argument is that you are putting off taking levels so its the 5th level abilities to level 10 abilities that you will be behind on the curve for when you Multiclass. This is a real question in my mind. Its why you see so many threads on when to take their dip because it never feels like its a great time to dip in Fifth Edition, which is very good design.

But I think people also over estimate many of the high level benefits. I do feel like abilities that come in past level ten are lackluster in many ways. Few of them are truly game changing, which is probably bad design. For example I would suggest that at level 10 casters have their 5th level spells and if you notice the number of spell slots above level 5 are very few and far between. Spells in general, compared to 3.5, are lower power level and its harder to have multiple spells activated at the same time. Which is why the Warlock dip, even of say 10 levels is a very real thing. It adds another layer of spell casting and while you won't have access to 6 level plus spells you have a lot lot more spell slots and a lot more total spells known. This same type of thinking maybe useful for caster dipping caster to think about because it maybe that they are happy to have 6 or 5 levels spells in one class and 4 and 5th level spells in another and knowing more spells and intelligently picking the spells that can use those higher spell slots can still be done well.

But something to be wary about is picking combinations that take forever to come online. An example would be Life Cleric 6/Warlock 5. Its not the greatest combo in the world, but it makes for a good example. Being able to get better use out of Vampiric Touch might have been game changing at level 5 or 6, but at level 11 its not as big a difference. This is much the same problem I'm pointing out as the capstones. Even if the capstones are cool who wants to play something that makes them unhappy for several levels to finally get to their combo and have it possibly be less than stellar for the level and what you gave up. Because, especially for casters slogging through two classes low level spells can be very hard because they may not be getting offsetting class abilities, but don't forget that Eldritch Knights and Paladins are doing this and participating in the game just fine.

Because in 5th Edition the power level difference between level 5 and level 20 isn't any where near the difference between those levels in 3.5. So many of multiclass decisions are just fine. The gap between you and another character will not be that large and you maybe able to do some unique things because of the combinations you make. This is a game of roleplaying and exploring. I think people will find some combinations that play well.

As a mini rant, I would also say that if I hear the fluff argument that you can't be a Paladin/Fiend Warlock one more time... Mechanically they work well together really well. I think Wizards did everyone a disservice by not reducing some of the fluff on Warlock to allow more of the fluff to DM's and players to work out. But as people keep pointing out its easy enough to make a backstory that works for heroic fiend warlock paladins. If any particular table isn't open to those ideas I'm okay with it but I think its a mistake to be so limiting to the creativity of my players and my tables. As far as I can see there is not a power level problem with the combination.

[lunaticfringe]

Lol Fiend Lockadins/Palalocks are awesome. Sticking to your Oath has nothing to do with alignment(neither does being a Paladin) or personal feelings.

I think traditional monogamy is a flawed concept. I have never cheated on any girl I have been in a monogamous relationship with. I love this person, they are monogamous, we have an (un)spoken agreement not to share our bodies with other parties. I has been hard (lol double entendre) sometimes, but I gave my word. My Oath...

Side note: Those D&D personality tests Always say I'm a Chaotic Neutral Dwarf Druid or Ranger or Druid/Ranger. I don't like Rules but I can follow them. Very Chaotic Dwarf.

[Talionis]

I think traditional monogamy is a flawed concept. I have never cheated on any girl I have been in a monogamous relationship with. I love this person, they are monogamous, we have an (un)spoken agreement not to share our bodies with other parties. I has been hard (lol double entendre) sometimes, but I gave my word. My Oath...



I think you are right about monogamy and wrong. Absolutely you are right that people can love multiple people at the same time. Many of them in different ways. I love many people at the same time. I have ex's I still love, even though I know exactly why we broke up.

But monogamy in the sense of sustaining one special relationship is probably a good idea. In my experience people become jealous quickly, even some of the ones you never think would become jealous. Even if you think that you are happy with an open relationship or multiple lovers... Over time its really hard to make multiple relationships work at the same time. You maybe the one that eventually gets jealous.

Its often hard enough to make one relationship work. Its surprising how much effort you have to put in to keep a marriage healthy. You'll fight. You'll be mad at each other. But it has so many benefits and having one person share your life and build things with you is a wonderful wonderful thing. A family is just one of many wonderful things. I advise trying to find someone you really get along with and someone that will be willing to put energy into the relationship to make it work with you; and marrying them.