[3.5] Initiator Gish w/o JPM?

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Is there any practical way to be an initiator (arcane) gish without using Jade Phoenix mage? (Don't want to be a divine gish using RKV, either)

JPM is obviously the most straightforward and efficient way to do it.

But assuming it's not on the table, what options does that leave?

Warblade 1/(Martial) Wizard 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Warblade +2/Wizard +2?

All suggestions welcome!

Cheers - T

[khadgar567]

Hey all,

Is there any practical way to be an initiator (arcane) gish without using Jade Phoenix mage? (Don't want to be a divine gish using RKV, either)

JPM is obviously the most straightforward and efficient way to do it.

But assuming it's not on the table, what options does that leave?

Warblade 1/(Martial) Wizard 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Warblade +2/Wizard +2?

All suggestions welcome!

Cheers - T
Not an expert but i advice you to wait martials of power( aka spheres of power martial edition) it gonna probably have sphere martial prc that gonna answer the harambe in the room

[Extra Anchovies]

UGH. I had a really long post typed out with detailed maneuver progressions and analysis of various options, and my browser decided to kill the page when I tabbed out to check a source. GRAH. RARGH. AGH.

Righto. Caster 4/Initiator 1/Caster +2/Initiator +1/Caster +2/Initiator +1/Caster +2/Initiator +1/Caster +2/Initiator +1/Caster +2/Initiator +1 works pretty well for any of the three initiating classes. Swordsage ends up with a final maneuvers-known arrangement of 0/4/1/1/2/1/2 (of levels 1/2/3/etc), Warblade gets 0/1/1/1/1/1/1, and Crusader gets 0/2/0/1/1/1/1. Any full caster gets 7th-level spells, with each spell level gained 3 levels after the last. Using an average-BAB caster results in final BAB of +15 for Swordsage and +17 for Warblade or Crusader. A half-BAB caster gives you +12 for Swordsage or +14 for Warblade or Crusader, so you'll be the butt of all your gish friends' jokes. You could probably replace some of the Caster levels with AbjChamp or a Spellsword dip or whatever and squeeze an extra point or two of BAB from those.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is the best arcane base caster by a long shot, because armored casting + average BAB. Cleric and Favored Soul are both solid choices for a divine base, and are probably stronger than SBS because they have better spells known and/or per-day and the Cleric list is full of juicy buffs. Druid would probably work too; maybe not as well, but you get to be an initiating velociraptor so who cares?

On the other side of the transparency pond, Psionics delivers in spades with Ardent/Swordsage. With Practiced Manifester they get 9th-level powers, and Wis to AC, Wis to damage on strikes, Wis for manifesting, and, say, Intuitive Attack for Wis to hit makes for a nicely SAD build. I'm pretty sure Ardent's the only average-BAB full-manifester, but it's a darn good one for gishing.

This is where it gets weird, because it's where we start using fast-progression casting PrCs.

Divine Crusader is a breeze for Warblades or Crusaders to enter; I'll assume the latter so I can type "Crusader" a bunch of times. Crusader 7/Divine Crusader 2/Crusader +1/Divine Crusader 2/Crusader +1/Divine Crusader 2/Crusader +1/Divine Crusader 2/Crusader +1/Divine Crusader +1 gets 8th-level spells, or 9ths if you can swing 28 Charisma. Maneuvers end up at 1/2/2/1/1/1/1/1, so that's double-8ths, and our BAB is a solid +17. Our spells are only from one domain, but that can still be pretty good; Strength and War both have plenty of nice buffs, for example.

This is where I was before my initial post was lost. GRRR.

Ur-Priest is a tricky one to enter because of those prerequisites. Two of our feats are tied up in Iron Will and Spell Focus (Evil), and we need between 5 and 8 ranks in five cross-class skills (or four if you're a Crusader). On top of that we also have to get base Fortitude and Will saves of +3 each.

Okay, quick aside: the max cross-class skill ranks rule is a steaming pile of otyugh droppings. I have developed a deep, burning hatred of them in the writing of this post. If it weren't for them we could be human, start with a level of Bard, take Able Learner at 1st, and be done with it. But NO. It has to be STUPID HARD for us to manage this. GAH.

*some time passes*

Alright, I have it now. We need to be a human, but by gods I finally have it. Education puts all Knowledge skills permanently in-class, including the (Arcana), (Planes), and (Religion) that we need. Apprentice (Criminal) does the same for Bluff, and taking Human Paragon at 1st level gives us Spellcraft via Adaptive Learning. Our second level might as well be another of Human Paragon, because it increases our IL anyways and we can take Iron Will with the bonus feat it grants. From there we can enter an initiating class at 3rd and take Spell Focus (Evil). Human Paragon has a strong Will save, so as long as we pick Warblade or Crusader we can meet all of Ur-Priest's requirements by level 5. Thank the gods. I'm gonna use Warblade with this one cuz I used Divine Crusader for Divine Crusader.

So. Human Paragon 2/Warblade 4/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/Ur-Priest 2 gets full Ur-Priest casting - that's 9th-level spells, baby - a final maneuvers known of 0/2/1/1/1/1/1, so we match the 7ths of the base-class builds, and a BAB of +16. All in all... not bad, actually. You're gonna suck until 3rd level, though, so don't play this if you're starting at 1st.

Next up is Knight of the Weave, average BAB and 6th-level spontaneous arcane casting over 10 levels. We need BAB +5 to enter, and Crusader's probably a nice fit given the slight Charisma synergy. Crusader 5/KotW 2/Crusader +1/KotW +2/Crusader +1/KotW +2/Crusader +1/KotW +2/Crusader +1/KotW +2/Crusader +1 maxes out KotW and finishes with a nice 10/10 split. We have BAB +17, 6th-level spells, and maneuvers up to 8th level in a final arrangement of 1/2/1/1/1/1/1/1. Pretty solid, and makes for a nice alternative to SBS if you want arcane casting but would rather start as an initiator.

TL;DR I put a lot of time into this, go back and read it you lazy piece of Okay, fine. Here's a few different approaches that would probably work decently at most tables.
Arcane: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer into any initiator; Crusader or Warblade into Knight of the Weave
Divine: Cleric or Favored Soul or Druid into any initiator; Warblade or Crusader into Divine Crusader or Ur-Priest
Psionic: Ardent into Swordsage is pretty rad, and Ardent into Warblade or Crusader would work but with less amazing synergy.

[khadgar567]

UGH. I had a really long post typed out with detailed maneuver progressions and analysis of various options, and my browser decided to kill the page when I tabbed out to check a source. GRAH. RARGH. AGH.

Righto. Caster 4/Initiator 1/Caster +2/Initiator +1/Caster +2/Initiator +1/Caster +2/Initiator +1/Caster +2/Initiator +1/Caster +2/Initiator +1 works pretty well for any of the three initiating classes. Swordsage ends up with a final maneuvers-known arrangement of 0/4/1/1/2/1/2 (of levels 1/2/3/etc), Warblade gets 0/1/1/1/1/1/1, and Crusader gets 0/2/0/1/1/1/1. Any full caster gets 7th-level spells, with each spell level gained 3 levels after the last. Using an average-BAB caster results in final BAB of +15 for Swordsage and +17 for Warblade or Crusader. A half-BAB caster gives you +12 for Swordsage or +14 for Warblade or Crusader, so you'll be the butt of all your gish friends' jokes. You could probably replace some of the Caster levels with AbjChamp or a Spellsword dip or whatever and squeeze an extra point or two of BAB from those.

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is the best arcane base caster by a long shot, because armored casting + average BAB. Cleric and Favored Soul are both solid choices for a divine base, and are probably stronger than SBS because they have better spells known and/or per-day and the Cleric list is full of juicy buffs. Druid would probably work too; maybe not as well, but you get to be an initiating velociraptor so who cares?

On the other side of the transparency pond, Psionics delivers in spades with Ardent/Swordsage. With Practiced Manifester they get 9th-level powers, and Wis to AC, Wis to damage on strikes, Wis for manifesting, and, say, Intuitive Attack for Wis to hit makes for a nicely SAD build. I'm pretty sure Ardent's the only average-BAB full-manifester, but it's a darn good one for gishing.

This is where it gets weird, because it's where we start using fast-progression casting PrCs.

Divine Crusader is a breeze for Warblades or Crusaders to enter; I'll assume the latter so I can type "Crusader" a bunch of times. Crusader 7/Divine Crusader 2/Crusader +1/Divine Crusader 2/Crusader +1/Divine Crusader 2/Crusader +1/Divine Crusader 2/Crusader +1/Divine Crusader +1 gets 8th-level spells, or 9ths if you can swing 28 Charisma. Maneuvers end up at 1/2/2/1/1/1/1/1, so that's double-8ths, and our BAB is a solid +17. Our spells are only from one domain, but that can still be pretty good; Strength and War both have plenty of nice buffs, for example.

This is where I was before my initial post was lost. GRRR.

Ur-Priest is a tricky one to enter because of those prerequisites. Two of our feats are tied up in Iron Will and Spell Focus (Evil), and we need between 5 and 8 ranks in five cross-class skills (or four if you're a Crusader). On top of that we also have to get base Fortitude and Will saves of +3 each.

Okay, quick aside: the max cross-class skill ranks rule is a steaming pile of otyugh droppings. I have developed a deep, burning hatred of them in the writing of this post. If it weren't for them we could be human, start with a level of Bard, take Able Learner at 1st, and be done with it. But NO. It has to be STUPID HARD for us to manage this. GAH.

*some time passes*

Alright, I have it now. We need to be a human, but by gods I finally have it. Education puts all Knowledge skills permanently in-class, including the (Arcana), (Planes), and (Religion) that we need. Apprentice (Criminal) does the same for Bluff, and taking Human Paragon at 1st level gives us Spellcraft via Adaptive Learning. Our second level might as well be another of Human Paragon, because it increases our IL anyways and we can take Iron Will with the bonus feat it grants. From there we can enter an initiating class at 3rd and take Spell Focus (Evil). Human Paragon has a strong Will save, so as long as we pick Warblade or Crusader we can meet all of Ur-Priest's requirements by level 5. Thank the gods. I'm gonna use Warblade with this one cuz I used Divine Crusader for Divine Crusader.

So. Human Paragon 2/Warblade 4/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/Ur-Priest 2/Warblade 1/Ur-Priest 2 gets full Ur-Priest casting - that's 9th-level spells, baby - a final maneuvers known of 0/2/1/1/1/1/1, so we match the 7ths of the base-class builds, and a BAB of +16. All in all... not bad, actually. You're gonna suck until 3rd level, though, so don't play this if you're starting at 1st.

Next up is Knight of the Weave, average BAB and 6th-level spontaneous arcane casting over 10 levels. We need BAB +5 to enter, and Crusader's probably a nice fit given the slight Charisma synergy. Crusader 5/KotW 2/Crusader +1/KotW +2/Crusader +1/KotW +2/Crusader +1/KotW +2/Crusader +1/KotW +2/Crusader +1 maxes out KotW and finishes with a nice 10/10 split. We have BAB +17, 6th-level spells, and maneuvers up to 8th level in a final arrangement of 1/2/1/1/1/1/1/1. Pretty solid, and makes for a nice alternative to SBS if you want arcane casting but would rather start as an initiator.

TL;DR I put a lot of time into this, go back and read it you lazy piece of Okay, fine. Here's a few different approaches that would probably work decently at most tables.
Arcane: Stalwart Battle Sorcerer into any initiator; Crusader or Warblade into Knight of the Weave
Divine: Cleric or Favored Soul or Druid into any initiator; Warblade or Crusader into Divine Crusader or Ur-Priest
Psionic: Ardent into Swordsage is pretty rad, and Ardent into Warblade or Crusader would work but with less amazing synergy.
is there a more easy way to get 9th level maneuvers and spells( as I am righting this gestalt came in to my mind)

[Gemini476]

If gestalt is on the table then you could just go warblade 20/wizard 20 and get double nines, yes.

Generally getting nines in both classes is pretty tricky if you aren't using one of the dedicated gish prestige classes, though, because the way ILs work out means that without those classes getting ninth-level manoeuvrers requires initiator 14/other 6.

Which, obviously, isn't getting you high spell levels. The only reason Extra Anchovies builds work is because going initiator 6/other 14 still gets you to IL13/CL14 and thus both seventh-level maneuvers and spells - that is, indeed, the "most easy way" if you aren't using Jade Phoenix Mage/Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[Thurbane]

Let's say I'm primarily interested in arcane 9ths, and whatever maneuvers I can nab as an afterthought are a bonus.

What's my best option?

PS no PF please, and no divine dishes, thanks.

[A.A.King]

I think that your best option for an Initiator Gish without using Jade Phoenix Mage but who does get 9th Level spells is going to be Bard + Sublime Chord

A Sorcerer can only lose 2 Caster Levels if wants 9th level spells, a Wizard can lose 3 Caster levels an d still get 9th. Bard + Sublime Chord can lose 4 caster levels and still get a ninth level spell.

Bard 4 / Crusader 1 / Bard +2 / Crusader +2 / Bard +1 / Sublime Chord 7 / Crusader +1 / Sublime Chord +2

(You probably want to replace 5 Sublime chord levels with Abjurant Champion for an extra +3 BAB, this is just the basic version)

This gets you One Ninth level spell and one 6th Level Maneuver.

[Gemini476]

Or, of course, you can go for Beholder Mage and get nine levels of spells in nine levels of overpowered prestige class.

Good luck with that, though.

[WhamBamSam]

Sha'irs are technically divine casters as well as arcane. You'd need Turn Undead from somewhere (probably Sacred Exorcist or a Cleric dip), but you could be an arcane RKV that way.

The variant version of the Wyrm of War sovereign archetype would let you swap out spells for Tiger Claw maneuvers of an equal level, and more importantly, give you an IL equal to your effective Sorcerer level. This really only helps you if your DM allows Sovereign Archetypes for kobolds though. A Steel Dragon or similar won't get much out of it without double dipping JPM levels to bootstrap its IL.

If you're just looking to staple maneuvers up to 5th level to a more standard arcane gish, then consider taking Craft Wondrous Item (or incorporating some means of getting a floating crafting feat). With Heroics, you can create items for a bunch of low-level maneuvers relatively cheaply. With those maneuvers satisfying prereqs, you can then use Heroics to acquire high level maneuvers/stances through Martial Study. If you use the Delay Potion feat (and probably the Quick Potion spell), you can even hold potions of Heroics to get whatever maneuver you have the IL for as a swift action.

[Darrin]

Seconding Sublime Chord. You need 3rd level spells to get in, so you could start with something like Bard 7/Warblade 3 or Bard 7/Crusader 3, Sublime Chord for 2, and then finish off with Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 2. If you slip in some early-entry stuff (Versatile Spellcaster, Talfirian Song, Improved Sigil Krau, etc.), you can get in with Bard 4/Crusader 6.

So I'd consider something like:

Race: Human.
1) Bard 1. Feat: Dragontouched. Human: Draconic Heritage (Emerald).
2) Bard 2.
3) Bard 3. Feat: Dragonfire Inspiration.
4) Bard 4.
5) Bard 5.
6) Bard 6. Feat: Melodic Casting. Music of Creation: Song of the Heart.
7) Bard 7.
8) Crusader 1.
9) Crusader 2. Feat: Song of the White Raven.
10) Crusader 3.
11) Sublime Chord 1.
12) Sublime Chord 2. Feat: Combat Casting.
13) Spellsword 1.
14) Abjurant Champion 1.
15) Abjurant Champion 2. Feat: Martial Study/Stance.
16) Abjurant Champion 3.
17) Abjurant Champion 4.
18) Abjurant Champion 5. Feat: Martial Study/Stance.
19) Archmage 1.
20) Archmage 2.

I might consider throwing Dragonborn in there, too. If your bard is from the city of Salkiria, you gain EWP: Bola Flail as a bonus feat (Ghostwalk 3.5 update). Instead of losing your human bonus feat, you can lose Tower Shield Proficiency instead (from Crusader) or Medium Armor/Shield Proficiency (from Bard). Then swap EWP: Bola Flail for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail.

[digiman619]

Not an expert but i advice you to wait martials of power( aka spheres of power martial edition) it gonna probably have sphere martial prc that gonna answer the harambe in the room

Is such a thing truly being planned, or are you messing with me?

[khadgar567]

Is such a thing truly being planned, or are you messing with me?
well in pathfinder forums they want martial version of spheres of power and I realy hope it comes true so no messing on might part I swear

[Inevitability]

Arcane Swordsage? Depending on the reading, it may still allow one to select maneuvers in addition to spells.

[A_S]

I'm a big fan of dipping ToB in Bard gishes, both to get swift action singing via Song of the White Raven, and to cherry-pick the good low-level maneuvers.

Here's an old build of mine that gets arcane 9ths, a few good maneuvers (Mountain Hammer, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Surge), 16 BAB, good Cha SAD, and swift action Inspire Courage with DFI and Words of Creation as a level 17 Bard before items/buffs:

Race: Silverbrow Human

Stats (32 point buy):
Str: 12
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 15
Wis: 14 > 15
Cha: 15 > 19

Level Progression:
1 - Bard 1 - Lingering Song, Dragonfire Inspiration
2 - Bard 2
3 - Bard 3 - Snowflake Wardance
4 - Bard 4 - Cha 16
5 - Bard 5
6 - Crusader 1 - Song of the White Raven
7 - Bard 6
8 - Bard 7 - Cha 17
9 - Warblade 1 - Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots)
10 - Druid 1
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Sublime Chord 2 - Open Least Chakra (feet), Cha 18
13 - Fochlucan Lyrist 1
14 - Fochlucan Lyrist 2
15 - Fochlucan Lyrist 3 - Arcane Strike
16 - Fochlucan Lyrist 4 - Cha 19
17 - Fochlucan Lyrist 5
18 - Fochlucan Lyrist 6 - Words of Creation (or Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord) if you hate exalted)
19 - Fochlucan Lyrist 7
20 - Fochlucan Lyrist 8 - Wis 15

ACF's: Eberron Bard (Suggestion > Song of the Heart at level 7), Healing Hymn, Savage Bard, Spellbreaker Song

Skills:

1 (32) - Balance 4, Concentration 3, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Listen 4, Perform (dance) 4, Perform (stringed instruments) 1, Sleight of Hand 4, Spellcraft 4, Tumble 4
2 (8) - Balance 5, Gather Information 1, Knowledge (nature) 5, Listen 5, Perform (dance) 5 Sleight of Hand 5, Spellcraft 5, Tumble 5
3 (8) - Gather Information 3, Knowledge (arcana) 2, Listen 6, Perform (dance) 6, Sleight of Hand 6, Spellcraft 6
4 (8) - Gather Information 5, Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 7, Sleight of Hand 7
5 (8) - Gather Information 7, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 8, Perform (stringed instruments) 4
6 (6) - Concentration 6, Diplomacy 7
7 (8) - Knowledge (arcana) 10, Listen 10, Perform (stringed instruments) 8
8 (8) - Knowledge (arcana) 11, Listen 11, Perform (stringed instruments) 10, Profession (astrologer) 4
9 (6) - Concentration 10, Knowledge (arcana) 12 (cc)
10 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 13 (cc), Listen 13, Profession (astrologer) 6
11 (6) - Decipher Script 1, Knowledge (nature) 7, Perform (stringed instruments) 13
12 (6) - Decipher Script 7
13 (8) - Concentration 16, SKILL TRICK: Conceal Spellcasting
14 (8) - Bluff 5, Concentration 17, Diplomacy 8, Perform (dance) 7
15 (8) - Bluff 8, Concentration 18, Diplomacy 9, Perform (dance) 8, SKILL TRICK: Social Recovery
16 (8) - Concentration 19, Diplomacy 10, Perform (dance) 10, Spellcraft 8, SKILL TRICK: False Theurgy
17 (8) - Concentration 20, Diplomacy 13, Perform (dance) 14
18 (8) - Concentration 21, Diplomacy 17, Perform (dance) 17
19 (8) - Concentration 22, Diplomacy 20, Perform (dance) 21
20 (8) - Concentration 23, Diplomacy 23, Perform (dance) 23, SKILL TRICK: Listen to This

Balance: 5
Bluff: 8
Concentration: 23
Decipher Script: 7
Diplomacy: 23
Gather Information: 7
Knowledge (arcana): 13
Knowledge (nature): 7
Listen: 13
Perform (dance): 23
Perform (stringed instruments): 13
Profession (astrologer): 6
Sleight of Hand: 7
Spellcraft: 8
Tumble: 5

Skill Tricks: Conceal Spellcasting, False Theurgy, Social Recovery, Listen to This

Maneuvers:
6 - Battle Leader's Charge, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Mountain Hammer, Vanguard Strike, Bolstering Voice (stance)
9 - Action Before Thought, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Punishing Stance (stance)
If you wanted more high-level maneuvers, you could pick up one more level of an initiator class late in your career instead of one level of Fochlucan Lyrist, and still hit 9th level spells (though in that case you'd only get one 9th level spell known).

[Extra Anchovies]

Seconding Sublime Chord. You need 3rd level spells to get in, so you could start with something like Bard 7/Warblade 3 or Bard 7/Crusader 3, Sublime Chord for 2, and then finish off with Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Archmage 2. If you slip in some early-entry stuff (Versatile Spellcaster, Talfirian Song, Improved Sigil Krau, etc.), you can get in with Bard 4/Crusader 6.

A problem with this: SC also requires 13 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and Listen, neither of which are in-class for the Crusader. This means that skill points from Crusader levels can't be put into K(Arcana) or Listen if you already have ranks greater than or equal to the cross-class maximum, and consequently that Bard 7/Crusader 3 can only have 10 ranks in Listen or K(Arcana). This is why I don't like the cross-class maximum skill ranks limit.

Beguiler 2/Warblade 2/Beguiler +1/Spellsinger (Races of Faerun) 2/Warblade +2/Beguiler +1/Sublime Chord 10 gets 6 levels of Beguiler casting, 9th-level spells by level 19 from Sublime Chord, +15 BAB, and 2/1/2 maneuvers of levels 1/2/3. Not great on the initiating side of things, but it's something. One Sublime Chord level can be replaced without losing 9th-level spells, and adding another level of Warblade at level 13 or 17 would get us one maneuver known of 5th or 6th level respectively. Our post-6th-level feats are also entirely free, so taking Martial Study once or twice in the higher levels is worth considering.

Early on, though, we have a few different feat taxes to cover. One of our 1st-level feats needs to be Apprentice (Entertainer), which makes Perform a permanent class skill, and we also need Improved Counterspell and Skill Focus (Perform) before 6th level, so we'd have to be human or have flaws. Nonhumans without flaws could move the second-last Warblade level down to 6th level and shift the Spellsinger levels to 7th and 8th, but the maneuvers known would suffer slightly (2/2/1 instead of 2/1/2).

Granted, it's probably less useful and less fun than Bard 7 entry, but it works so I thought it'd be worth sharing as an odd alternative.

[A_S]

A problem with this: SC also requires 13 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and Listen, neither of which are in-class for the Crusader. This means that skill points from Crusader levels can't be put into K(Arcana) or Listen if you already have ranks greater than or equal to the cross-class maximum, and consequently that Bard 7/Crusader 3 can only have 10 ranks in Listen or K(Arcana). This is why I don't like the cross-class maximum skill ranks limit.
This is not true.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm):
Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.
You have to pay double for Knowledge (arcana) on your Crusader levels, but you can still go up to 13 points.

[Extra Anchovies]

This is not true.

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm):
You have to pay double for Knowledge (arcana) on your Crusader levels, but you can still go up to 13 points.

Huh. Thanks for correcting me, I had completely forgotten about that. Probably because I avoid cross-class skills like the plague unless it's something trivial like the Divine Crusader's 2 ranks in Knowledge (Religion).

That should make the BeguiloChord's initiating a bit better, because we can move early levels around to access 4th-level maneuvers. Beguiler 2/Warblade 2/Beguiler +1/Spellsinger (Races of Faerun) 2/Beguiler +1/Warblade +2 into Sublime Chord ends up with 2/1/1/1 maneuvers of levels 1/2/3/4 at character level 10. The Ur-Priest gish in my long post upthread would also probably have a low-level feat slot to spare, because we can pick Bluff as one of Human Paragon's class skills and skip Apprentice (Criminal). Nice.

[Name1]

Well, if you have 20 Cha and are a second level bard human with two flaws, you can reasonably qualify yourself for Sublime Chord via Earth Spell and Versatile Spellcaster. Basically, go Bard 2/Initiator Class 8/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sublime Chord 3/Initiator Class 1.

Nvm, this would set your Initiator Level to 14, which means doing this would suck.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, Bard into Sublime Chord sounds promising. Would it be worthwhile to (ab)use Versatile Spellcaster with either Heighten Spell or Bloodline feats to get 3rds quicker (and free up more levels for martial adept levels)?

[A_S]

Hmm, Bard into Sublime Chord sounds promising. Would it be worthwhile to (ab)use Versatile Spellcaster with either Heighten Spell or Bloodline feats to get 3rds quicker (and free up more levels for martial adept levels)?
If you're primarily interested in Sublime Chord as an easy way to get 9ths and lots of maneuvers into the same build, then yes.

If you're also focusing on making your Bardic Music strong, then no (you want lots of Bard levels anyway).

[Troacctid]

Psionic: Ardent into Swordsage is pretty rad, and Ardent into Warblade or Crusader would work but with less amazing synergy.
You forgot Warblade or Crusader into War Mind! Sweeping Strike works great with maneuvers.

[Extra Anchovies]

You forgot Warblade or Crusader into War Mind! Sweeping Strike works great with maneuvers.

Hm. Warblade 4/Psychic Rogue 1/War Mind 3/Warblade +1/War Mind +2/Warblade +1/War Mind +2/Warblade +1/War Mind +2/Warblade +1/War Mind +1/Warblade +1 would get 7th-level maneuvers, 5th-level manifesting, and BAB +19. Definitely leans a bit more on fightin' than the Ardent base, but would be a pretty solid martial build with a few psionic tricks on the side.

[Troacctid]

Hm. Warblade 4/Psychic Rogue 1/War Mind 3/Warblade +1/War Mind +2/Warblade +1/War Mind +2/Warblade +1/War Mind +2/Warblade +1/War Mind +1/Warblade +1 would get 7th-level maneuvers, 5th-level manifesting, and BAB +19. Definitely leans a bit more on fightin' than the Ardent base, but would be a pretty solid martial build with a few psionic tricks on the side.

Why not Warblade 5 entry? You need Knowledge Devotion, but it seems more elegant overall, and getting 3rd level maneuvers on schedule seems like a substantial upside.

[Thurbane]

While I encourage the discussion of all possibilities, I should point out that Psionics are not in use in any of my games.