Optimizing with UA: Fighter (Monster Hunter) or Revised Ranger?

[jaappleton]

So I'm trying to make use of a hand crossbow, crossbow expertise, and Sharpshooter. One of the big combos in the game.

Level 9

Stats are as follows, regardless of race:

20, 18, 16, 14, 10, 8

Pick One:

A) One feat if Ranger
B) Two feats if VHuman (regardless of class)
C) 2 Feats if Fighter
D) 3 feats if VHuman Fighter


The Fighter - Monster Hunter archetype was released in UA: Gothic Heroes just about the time Strahd was released. It also had the Revenant and Inquisitor Rogue.


Pros for MH Fighter:
Their superiority dice damage is maxed against Aberrations, Fey, Fiends and Undead. IMO this makes it fairly competitive with Ranger's new Favored Enemy feature.

All the Fighter goodies, like Action Surge, Indomitable, Second Wind, etc. Tons of Feats available with that stat array, too. Most abilities refresh on a short rest (Superiority Dice, Second Wind, Action Surge)


Cons for MH Fighter:
Essentially pure single target damage. No way to deal with AoE.


Pros for Revised Ranger:
Advantage on Initiative, first round has Advantage, spells (though IMO their AoE spell damage isn't so great, but it's nice to have it available), Hunter's Mark (that's a big one)

Cons:
Spells known is pretty poor, abilities refresh on a long rest, favored enemy selection seems more limiting than MH (though I may be wrong)




For Race, I was leaning Eladrin if I went MH Fighter. That's Misty Step, Action Surge, Second Wind and Superiority Dice all refreshing every short rest, though I'm really open to all suggestions.

Likely VHuman Deep Stalker for Ranger. That nets Darkvision on the Human.

[Sir cryosin]

Um are you using 2 hand crossbows or one. I ask because my DM doesn't let us use 2 hand crossbows unless he have some thing made that lets use load and pull the string back with in 6 sec to attack multiple times.

[Specter]

I'm currently playing a MH at level 7. Their main gimmick is adding a sup. die to saves, which really makes a difference.

If you want to make those bastards burn, go Ranger 6/MH3. Favored Enemy damage+dice+Action Surge? Yes please.

[jaappleton]

One hand crossbow.

Unfortunately there was an errata where Hand Crossbow + Shield no longer works, as you need a free hand to reload. Though maybe my DM hasn't seen that, or I can flavor my shield as being strapped to my wrist as a buckler or something.


As beastly (pun fully intended) as a MH / Ranger is, doubling up Favored Enemy with the MH dice, no multiclassing available here in this scenario.

[jaappleton]

I'm currently playing a MH at level 7. Their main gimmick is adding a sup. die to saves, which really makes a difference.

If you want to make those bastards burn, go Ranger 6/MH3. Favored Enemy damage+dice+Action Surge? Yes please.

Out of curiosity, since you're the only person I've come across that's actually played the MH, how do you like it? From what I can see, it looks to be impressive: SD to saves helps defensively, and it still gets to add SD to attack and damage rolls. Much better than the BM overall IMO. Do you think the Martial Adept feat is worth it?

[Specter]

One hand crossbow.

Unfortunately there was an errata where Hand Crossbow + Shield no longer works, as you need a free hand to reload. Though maybe my DM hasn't seen that, or I can flavor my shield as being strapped to my wrist as a buckler or something.


As beastly (pun fully intended) as a MH / Ranger is, doubling up Favored Enemy with the MH dice, no multiclassing available here in this scenario.

Pity.


Out of curiosity, since you're the only person I've come across that's actually played the MH, how do you like it? From what I can see, it looks to be impressive: SD to saves helps defensively, and it still gets to add SD to attack and damage rolls. Much better than the BM overall IMO. Do you think the Martial Adept feat is worth it?

It's pretty good. I took it because the group was out of explorer-like dudes, and with an extra skill and Thieves' Tools it helped. It suffers the same short rest problem that Battlemaster has, so there's that. Most of the time you'll only use a die if you rolled average (like 7-10 to hit or on a save). Except when you crit, of course, in which case a single die of damage becomes two. I'm playing a half-orc with a greataxe so the crits really ravage encounters.

If you think the group will get plenty of chances to rest and the campaign revolves around those enemies, go for it.

As for Martial Adept, it's nice because you can get Battlemaster maneuvers along with your already impressive dice stunts. BMs on the other hand can't add their dice to saves.

[DeAnno]

Out of curiosity, since you're the only person I've come across that's actually played the MH, how do you like it? From what I can see, it looks to be impressive: SD to saves helps defensively, and it still gets to add SD to attack and damage rolls. Much better than the BM overall IMO. Do you think the Martial Adept feat is worth it?

I have played a MH at level 4 and 5 so far:

Saving throw thing only came up once, but it was a big deal when it did, let me shake off a Hold Person like a bad joke. A Dex based MH essentially has no weak save to exploit, which is really good against intelligent (even metagaming) enemies.
The Detect Magic ritual is much handier than you would give it credit for. A lot of parties won't have it available as a ritual for whatever reason and being able to spam it for slow exploration is something every party should have. It's even better because MH's make superb forward scouts, and something like a Rogue or Ranger isn't going to have Detect Magic on demand.
If you use Sharpshooter/GWM a lot you really want to hoard your Superiority Dice for accuracy boosts anyway (especially Sharpshooter/CE as rate of fire is high and advantage is scarce). The comparative advantage of being able to use dice for various Battlemaster effects is probably lower than one would expect. This is further exacerbated by wanting to keep one in your pocket for a nasty mental save. For this reason I think Martial Adept is a reasonable feat but doesn't deserve to be prioritized over -5/+10 feats, minor action attack feats, or main stat ASIs.
Monster Slayer is ok, but I'm not very excited about it. Needing to burn two dice on damage instead of precision is probably rarely worth it even with this feature, except when you crit. The efficiency issue is exacerbated by these types of monsters frequently resisting weapon damage. Even with the extra die, I see level 7 (and 9 too, and to a lesser extent 10) as pretty weak levels, so post-6th is a good time to start MCing if you're feeling the need to.


Overall I like the Monster Hunter over the Battlemaster mechanically, for my purposes at least.

[jaappleton]

What Race would be best for this MH?

Eladrin gets Misty step, which is always useful. Exploration, escape, teleport behind an enemy and unload crossbow bolts into the back of its head... I once Misty Stepped onto a Dragon's face and jammed my sword into its eye.

Meanwhile, there's an unlikely candidate: Gnome. Advantage on mental saves VS magical effects? Coupled with the superiority dice to saves? Should be great defensively.

Half Elf would bet me even more skill proficiencies, and still get Fey Ancestry.

Human means 3 Feats, but no Darkvision. Though it allows me to start with Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and Martial Adept.

Hill Dwarf? Bonus HP, poison resistance. Could certainly do worse. Plus, I get to do my best Varric impression.

Tiefling and Drow / Half Drow are out; Their spells rely on Charisma. No thanks for this build, even if I'd like Faerie Fire for Advantage.

Goliath can shrug off some damage.

Half Orc's bonus to crits only helps Melee.

Genasi... Don't wow me.

Aaracroaka? If I fly, my DM will be sure to shoot me out of the sky. I don't blame him for it, either.

[DeAnno]

I would say the best races are Human and Eladrin. VHuman Fighter gets four ASIs; the best configuration is probably Sharpshooter/CE/ASI/ASI with a 20 Dex/16 Con/etc stat spread. Eladrain only gets three; you're going with Sharpshooter/CE and either 18 Dex/16 Con (through a dex/con ASI) or 18 Dex/14 Con/Dex save proficiency/good other stats.

Eladrin's going to set you back a lot either way until level 12 when you get your last Dex ASI (Human is taking Alert/ResWis/Martial Adept/Lucky or something, all of which are tier two ASIs), but in return you get Darkvision and Fey Step, both of which are very good for the sorts of things you're going to want to do. I think if you pick Eladrin you will be will be slightly worse from 9-11 and slightly better 12+, but really it mostly depends on how much you want the teleport and what you see yourself doing with your character in general.

EDIT: Nevermind, missed the stats stuff. I think with those stats and either two or three remaining ASIs as opposed to standard point Buy Eladrin is likely better, only the first two ASIs are truly needed.

[8wGremlin]

Can you do both?
Vhuman
Fighter 6/Ranger 3 (Deep Stalker Conclave)

Fighter 6 gets you extra attack, all the fighter goodies, and more feats
Ranger 3 gets you all it's goodies as well!

You get 2 Fighting Style, take Archery and Defence (+1 ac)

Ranger 3 (Deep Stalker Conclave)
gives you 90' dark vision.
on 1st turn you can nova as you get an additional attack every time you use the attack action; which with the fighter you can do twice with action surge and get the bonus action attack as well.

= 2 attacks for ftr5 + 1 ranger 3, action surge for +2 attacks for ftr5 + 1 ranger 3 then bonus action attack
= 7 attacks doing 1d6+dexmod
= with the Sharpshooter adding in it's +10 damage your potentially doing 1d6 +15 per hit.

[Specter]

As for race, depends on what you want. If you want to be the skill guy, def. Half-Elf. If you want Martial Adept ASAP, Human. If you want to go insane in the battlefield, Half-Orc. I wouldn't go Gnome unless MC into Wizard is allowed (Portent, anyone?).

I've never been let down by my Half-Orc, personally. When I crit with Monster Slayer, the table rallies like a casino.

Oh yeah, and Earth Genasi makes you the Stealth master, don't disregard that.

[jaappleton]

What about Aasimar?

Remember, stats don't matter here. Their spells may key off Charisma but their spells don't actually matter.

What is it they get? Lesser Restoration and Daylight? So that'd be LR, Daylight and Protection from Evil & Good once per long rest. Resistance to Radiant and Necrotic, too.

[Specter]

Oh yeah, there's that. Pretty good, even though the radiant resistance is pretty much wasted (unless you plan on murdering Paladins or something). It's good, really. In terms of optimization, I guess your best bets are:

- Aasimar (extra spells and resistances; will tank longer in undead/fiend fights)
- Half-Elf (if skill-oriented)
- Half-Orc (for damage and lasting another round)
- Human (for a feat)

The rest will really depend on what you want to play.

[jaappleton]

Oh yeah, there's that. Pretty good, even though the radiant resistance is pretty much wasted (unless you plan on murdering Paladins or something). It's good, really. In terms of optimization, I guess your best bets are:

- Aasimar (extra spells and resistances; will tank longer in undead/fiend fights)
- Half-Elf (if skill-oriented)
- Half-Orc (for damage and lasting another round)
- Human (for a feat)

The rest will really depend on what you want to play.

If you don't plan on murdering Paladins, are you really planning anything at all?

[DeAnno]

Take it from me being restrained in this build is terrible, because you can't do any real damage without Sharpshooting and trying to Sharpshoot through disadvantage is a disaster. The once/rest Eladrin ticket out of restrained (most forms of it at least, whether random nets or being eaten or what have you) is absolutely amazing. The rest of the Elf traits are nothing to shake a stick at either.

The teleport is also very good for getting yourself up into a great firing position (top of a building, a tree, etc) that might be difficult to reach from the ground. It's not quite Aaracokra flight but it's a reasonable comparison sometimes.

[jaappleton]

Take it from me being restrained in this build is terrible, because you can't do any real damage without Sharpshooting and trying to Sharpshoot through disadvantage is a disaster. The once/rest Eladrin ticket out of restrained (most forms of it at least, whether random nets or being eaten or what have you) is absolutely amazing. The rest of the Elf traits are nothing to shake a stick at either.

The teleport is also very good for getting yourself up into a great firing position (top of a building, a tree, etc) that might be difficult to reach from the ground. It's not quite Aaracokra flight but it's a reasonable comparison sometimes.

I'm currently playing an Eladrin Theurge, there is no denying the Misty Step emergency button is wonderful. I think I'm going Eladrin here.

EDIT: Well, Aasimar actually makes the most sense for what this should be. An Angelic like being hunting down supernatural creatures? Using Daylight to banish darkness? Resistance to Necrotic? Hard to turn down.

[jaappleton]

Wait just a moment.

The DM may allow multiclassing. He's on the fence.

Here's an idea I had:

We know that MCing MH with Ranger would yield more damage against favored enemies, along with first round advantage.

BUT!

There may be something even more thematic and it's pretty strong as well.

MH 7 / Light Cleric 2

I'll have strong Wisdom already from being a MH. That allows me to make use of Cleric spells, and Light's ability Warding Flare to cause disadvantage on attack rolls against me. Light also gets me Faerie Fire, enable advantage for me and my allies.

It also enables Bless as an alternative, both of which should help negate the -5 to hit from Sharpshooter. Bless also helps with saving throws, so Bless coupled with my Superiority Dice and Warding Flare should make it very, very difficult to take me out of commission.

The Light Cleric's channel divinity may not be great since I'm only multiclassing, but it at least removes magical darkness, and it's radiant, to help against all sorts of creatures (Radiant damage often causes nasty effects for certain enemies, like halting regeneration).



What do you think?

[Specter]

If he allows multiclassing, I'd still go ranger 6. Warding Flare eats up too quickly, and casting Bless should be left to someone else so you don't spend your first round of combat. But it's not a bad MC.