Need help with kusarigama problem

[ArtikSnow]

Ok so my dm says that the kusarigama is a weapon that falls under the the 2 weapon penalty which I do not see anywhere it says that it does. On top of that it is one weapon not two separate weapons I am holding. So from your guy experience is he right to call it two weapons and have it fall under the penalty or is it just one weapon? The way it reads me is it ones weapon that has a chain connected to it then has a weight on the end of the chain. To me that is one weapon because they are not separate and no where does it say it attacks separate.

[CasualViking]

Ok so my dm says that the kusarigama is a weapon that falls under the the 2 weapon penalty which I do not see anywhere it says that it does. On top of that it is one weapon not two separate weapons I am holding. So from your guy experience is he right to call it two weapons and have it fall under the penalty or is it just one weapon? The way it reads me is it ones weapon that has a chain connected to it then has a weight on the end of the chain. To me that is one weapon because they are not separate and no where does it say it attacks separate.

It's a double weapon, so you can attack with one end like it's a two-handed weapon, or you can use both ends as if you're two-weapon fighting (counts as using a light weapon, so the lesser penalty).

[AnachroNinja]

First, it is not a double weapon.

Second, the two weapon fighting penalty only applies if you are using both ends of a double weapon to attack in the same round. If you were to use only one end if a orc double axe for example, you would take no penalties. So even if a kusarigama was a double weapon, which its not, you could still use it without penalty as long as your not two weapon fighting.

[Deophaun]

No weapon falls under the "two weapon" penalty, because there is no such thing. There is a penalty for two weapon fighting, where you use your off-hand weapon to make an additional attack. But that has nothing to do with the weapon itself, and even holding two different weapons in your hands does nothing to your chance to hit if you do not make that additional attack.

The kusari-gama is a one-handed weapon, not a double weapon, so there is no way to take the penalty if you confine your attacks to only using it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The kusarigama is a one-handed weapon with reach that can hit adjacent targets as well, like a one-handed version of the spiked chain. If your DM says differently and is penalizing you for it, he is houserule nerfing the weapon, whether he realizes it or not.

[phlidwsn]

Depends, are you playing Pathfinder or 3.5?

Pathfinder it is absolutely a double weapon with reach, trip, grapple, and monk.

3.5 its in the DMG, and(AFB) looks to be a one-handed reach weapon as folks describe above.

[ArtikSnow]

No weapon falls under the "two weapon" penalty, because there is no such thing. There is a penalty for two weapon fighting, where you use your off-hand weapon to make an additional attack. But that has nothing to do with the weapon itself, and even holding two different weapons in your hands does nothing to your chance to hit if you do not make that additional attack.

The kusari-gama is a one-handed weapon, not a double weapon, so there is no way to take the penalty if you confine your attacks to only using it.

I see that is what I though however my dm says if I use the scythe part to attack that will do 1 d6 damage. Then he says if I wanted to use the other end I would have to make another attack roll and also suffer the penalty's for double weapons which makes no sense to me since the damage is quite low and it is one light weapon. Why cant you just attack with both and do 16 and 1d4 since its the same weapon. Also I am playing 3.5 D&D not pathfinder.

[Deophaun]

I see that is what I though however my dm says if I use the scythe part to attack that will do 1 d6 damage. Then he says if I wanted to use the other end I would have to make another attack roll and also suffer the penalty's for double weapons which makes no sense to me since the damage is quite low and it is one light weapon. Why cant you just attack with both and do 16 and 1d4 since its the same weapon. Also I am playing 3.5 D&D not pathfinder.
Because the weapon's damage die is largely irrelevant: it's everything else you can put on it (sneak attack, skirmish, dragonfire inspiration).

Also, to a much lesser extent, you're freely switching between slashing and bludgeoning damage, giving you more options to overcome DR.

But yeah, if you're doing that, then you're treating the weapon as a double weapon:

A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

[ArtikSnow]

Because the weapon's damage die is largely irrelevant: it's everything else you can put on it (sneak attack, skirmish, dragonfire inspiration).

Also, to a much lesser extent, you're freely switching between slashing and bludgeoning damage, giving you more options to overcome DR.

But yeah, if you're doing that, then you're treating the weapon as a double weapon:

Except in the dms guide there is the same weapon but it is not treated as two separate attacks it's one single attack. Page 145

[Deophaun]

Except in the dms guide there is the same weapon...Nope. That kusari-gama is not the kusari-gama you have. You have a houseruled weapon that allows you to take an off-hand attack that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage in addition to its primary. The kusari-gama in the DMG only allows a single attack that deals 1d6 slashing damage.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I see that is what I though however my dm says if I use the scythe part to attack that will do 1 d6 damage. Then he says if I wanted to use the other end I would have to make another attack roll and also suffer the penalty's for double weapons

For the record, you only take two-weapon fighting penalties if you're using that mode of attacking (read: intentionally taking penalties to gain extra attacks beyond your BaB-granted ones), there's no actual penalties for wielding multiple weapons, making a full-attack, and just alternating between them as your BaB allows.

[Deophaun]

there's no actual penalties for... and just alternating between them as your BaB allows.
I thought that was the rule, but when I went to post that, I couldn't actually find RAW to support it. Do you know where that is?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I thought that was the rule, but when I went to post that, I couldn't actually find RAW to support it. Do you know where that is?http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting

It only makes mention of taking the penalties when getting spare attacks, which are further expanded upon in the TWF line of feats.

[Tohsaka Rin]

It's built right into the two-weapon fighting feat.



Normal

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you CAN get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

Nothing is forcing you to make the extra attack. The penalties are only applied for making extra attacks.

Having said that, I know I read somewhere official there was a specific example of this, I'll need to go digging...

EDIT: Aaaah, Swordsage'd.

[DarkSoul]

I thought that was the rule, but when I went to post that, I couldn't actually find RAW to support it. Do you know where that is?


If you can make multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. You can strike with either weapon first if you’re using two weapons or either part of the weapon first if you’re using a double weapon.As long as you're not trying to use the two-weapon fighting rules to gain extra attacks with your second weapon, you can use multiple weapons in a full attack.

The OP's DM is using the Oriental Adventures version of the kusari-gama which can be used as a double weapon, dealing 1d4 bludgeoning damage with the chain end, or as a reach weapon. It's actually an upgrade for the OP, as either end can be used as a reach weapon according to OA. As we've established, as long as you're not actually two-weapon fighting (taking the penalties to get extra attacks) you can use either end of the weapon as you see fit at no penalties.

[Deophaun]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting

It only makes mention of taking the penalties when getting spare attacks, which are furthered expanded upon in the TWF line of feats.
Right, but where does RAW actually authorize you to alternate weapons within your normal BAB routine? That's what I'm looking for. I only see mentions of alternating weapons with regard to TWF.

Edit: And it has to be there, otherwise thrown weapons wouldn't work with BAB... but... where...

[Darrin]

Right, but where does RAW actually authorize you to alternate weapons within your normal BAB routine? That's what I'm looking for. I only see mentions of alternating weapons with regard to TWF.


PHB page 143. Under Full-Round Actions, Full Attack, third paragraph, second sentence:

"If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."

Just keep in mind you can "use" two weapons without using the TWF rules. There's no TWF penalty if you're not getting an extra offhand attack.

[Deophaun]

PHB page 143. Under Full-Round Actions, Full Attack, third paragraph, second sentence:

"If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first."
Not quite what I'm looking for. But, what I'm looking for I think doesn't exist, because it's just an implication of existing rules. You use a melee weapon to make an attack, but beyond that there is nothing requiring you to commit to any particular weapon. So, if you have a weapon, you can use it for any normal attack. The only time it gets specific is with TWF, and that's what's throwing me off.

[Segev]

Your DM is right: If you attack with one end, then with the other, it's just like attacking with a normal weapon, and then using your off hand to attack with a light weapon. So you suffer the two-weapon fighting penalties. In exchange, you get that extra attack.

[DarkSoul]

Your DM is right: If you attack with one end, then with the other, it's just like attacking with a normal weapon, and then using your off hand to attack with a light weapon. So you suffer the two-weapon fighting penalties. In exchange, you get that extra attack.Keep in mind that the OP and the DM were looking at two different versions of the same weapon. The OP looked in the DMG and the DM looked in Oriental Adventures, so OP didn't understand where the TWF penalties were coming from because the DMG version isn't a double weapon. OP was justifiably confused because they're looking at two different sets of stats.

That said, unless OP specifically says he's using TWF to get the extra attack, he can attack with either end of the weapon interchangeably at no penalty.