DMPC idea; input needed

[j_spencer93]

So, as i have posted several times now, I am about to run a mega campaign. However, I want to tie all the new 5.0 missions into our 3.5 campaign we ran for years. The best way to do it is to bring back the BBEG from it.
He basically was some ancient being, who lost all his powers in the dawn wars. SO instead he new travels and absorbs the powers of other powerful beings.

Would placing him in the party, and only after they beat all the campaigns revealing his true self, be a good twist? I obviously would make a new name to hide who we was for awhile.
He would be the one to inform them of each problem, and only use them to reach tiamat, the demon lords, strahd, etc to take portions of their power himself. He can split his soul into individual beings, so a new part of him would go on each mission. Merging once their mission is complete.

Got a little of topic. Are PC's controlled by the DM a good idea? Is this a good twist?

[MasterMercury]

Depends how you use it. Will he fight in combat? Interact with other NPCs? If he's just a quest-giver along for the ride, or doesn't fight but unlocks arcane wards or something, that's probably fine. Just make sure he's not overshadowing the players.
As for the twist, it could be pretty good if done right.
Foreshadow: establish that things can come from your 3.5, maybe some other minor NPC just to get the idea in the PCs head.
Good luck

[j_spencer93]

I was thinking like one of his "soul shards" would be a wizard who doesnt fight. Only provides story support mainly, and emergency combat help. Stuff like that.
And some of the big players from out old games will reappear, like tiamat lol i plan on letting her mention that she recognizes him right before being sent back to hell.
Strahd would recognize the soul shard opposing him too.
The elemental lords won't but will recognize his "aura"


Behind the scenes he is some sort of elder evil, just havent figured it all out yet. His main ability is to absorb the "essence" of others.

[Ashdate]

I would be wary of having a full time DM PC as there are just far too many pitfalls. It sounds like you could easily run him as a quest giver, and simply find an excuse for him to tag along to the meeting with Tiamat/Stradh/whomever.

Perhaps you can even wing it with a magic item that the PCs use to weaken your mega bosses, only to reveal that all that power was going to him.

[Malifice]

Are PC's controlled by the DM a good idea? Is this a good twist?

Almost always, no.

[j_spencer93]

I am afraid of that. I don't want to control the story for them. I might just make him a tag along who is supposedly powerless.

[Malifice]

I am afraid of that. I don't want to control the story for them. I might just make him a tag along who is supposedly powerless.

I wouldnt do that either.

He becomes a powerless but invincible (plot immunity) NPC who just kinda... exists.

Dont have uber NPCs wade in to save the PCs, or to demonstrate how awesome they are.

Make the PCs the focus of the story.

[j_spencer93]

I never said he was invincible. If he dies he dies (well "dies") coming back at the end of the quest. That would only be for one of his shards though. Dont want to pull the same trick repeatedly.

[Malifice]

I never said he was invincible. If he dies he dies (well "dies") coming back at the end of the quest. That would only be for one of his shards though. Dont want to pull the same trick repeatedly.

There is a name for that and its called Plot Immunity.

What if the PCs find out he's 'in on it' early on?

Either its possible for them to do so (in which case you need to be prepared for an early end to the campaign when they smoke him, or you have to give him total plot immunity meaning there is nothing the PCs can do about him), or its not possible for them to find out before the finale, (in which case you're thwarting their agency (they cant do anything about the BBEG - including finding out he is the BBEG) untill you let them, no matter what they do.

That, and the fact he's now some invincible plot immune DMNPC that does nothing till the end of the campaign anyway means its a bad idea.

Dont do it.

[Jarlhen]

I've never seen a DMPC be used well. That's in 20 years of playing and DMing. Dozens of groups, probably hundreds of players at this point. Not once. I hear stories that they sometimes work, I just don't believe them. Either way, even if it does, against all odds, work is it worth the risk? No. There's nothing a DMPC is necessary for that can't be solved in many other ways. I'd rather just have the dude pretend to be a friend, give them some quest, give them a way to communicate with the person remotely, have them do a lot of NPC interactions with the person and so on. You could still then build up the shock "Oh wow, he's the BBEG, who would have known?!" without the potential pitfalls of a DMPC. Because that's the point, right? To get the PCs to react to the fact that the person they thought was cool was in fact the enemy all along?

[Sir cryosin]

I wouldn't show any powers just have him use spells like shield, Misty step, invisibility. As needed don't have him contribute to any fights or encounters. Make him a seams like a lore master someone alone for the ride writing down the events that change the realms.

[j_spencer93]

Thanks for all the input. Got a lot to think about now...torn between a few ideas.
I actually have had my players congratulate me on DMPCs before but I don't normally use them because of their inherent problems.

Another problem is I have to figure out a new way to pull this off each mission lol

[Contrast]

And some of the big players from out old games will reappear, like tiamat lol i plan on letting her mention that she recognizes him right before being sent back to hell.
Strahd would recognize the soul shard opposing him too.
The elemental lords won't but will recognize his "aura"


Behind the scenes he is some sort of elder evil, just havent figured it all out yet. His main ability is to absorb the "essence" of others.


I am afraid of that. I don't want to control the story for them. I might just make him a tag along who is supposedly powerless.

...pretty sure your players are going to twig on that and not in a good way.

The players have adopted Barry the Tour Guide to show them through the dungeon at the DM insistence, they finally reach the epic final boss confrontation...who proceeds to ignore the players who are supposedly the heroes and go 'Curse you Barry!'. They will know something is up and if it was me I would feel like I was now PC the Tour Guide.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do it but I wouldn't recommend having him with them and I wouldn't recommend having the bosses directly recognise him (maybe refer to a coming darkness or growing evil or the like if you want some foreshadowing).


I would be wary of having a full time DM PC as there are just far too many pitfalls. It sounds like you could easily run him as a quest giver, and simply find an excuse for him to tag along to the meeting with Tiamat/Stradh/whomever.

Perhaps you can even wing it with a magic item that the PCs use to weaken your mega bosses, only to reveal that all that power was going to him.

^ This is what I was going to recommend. Maybe even have him tell them he's specifically out siphoning power from these evil entites to fight/stop the foretold coming of the Great Unknown one and only at the end does it turn out they've been helping him all along.

[Specter]

The crucial things to DMPCs are making them not more powerful than the party, and giving them skills the party doesn't (like a healer in a party with no healing).

[kyoryu]

Regardless of whether having a DMPC is a good idea in general, there's one question here - what if the players decide that they don't want the DMPC in the party?

That kind of screws up your whole story.

[j_spencer93]

Actually if they decided that I would simply make him go on his merry way, to reappear later at the end. However, I think i am going with the "he left to help stop the force in his own way" sort of thing from atleast the Tiamat mission.

[Vogonjeltz]

So, as i have posted several times now, I am about to run a mega campaign. However, I want to tie all the new 5.0 missions into our 3.5 campaign we ran for years. The best way to do it is to bring back the BBEG from it.
He basically was some ancient being, who lost all his powers in the dawn wars. SO instead he new travels and absorbs the powers of other powerful beings.

Would placing him in the party, and only after they beat all the campaigns revealing his true self, be a good twist? I obviously would make a new name to hide who we was for awhile.
He would be the one to inform them of each problem, and only use them to reach tiamat, the demon lords, strahd, etc to take portions of their power himself. He can split his soul into individual beings, so a new part of him would go on each mission. Merging once their mission is complete.

Got a little of topic. Are PC's controlled by the DM a good idea? Is this a good twist?

So their employer is basically demanding that he go on the super dangerous quests with them? I mean, if he's played like some megalomaniac, why not?

Wouldn't these characters recognize their old enemy easily though?

[j_spencer93]

Well normally yes. However, this being can split his soul apart and basically create a new living form for each part. Those his body is always different. The player's are aware of this, and he does have a tell, he never likes to be looked down upon and happens to have the habit of going after Planar Powers recklessly.
His main form (which, i sort of forgot where he is located) however grows weaker each time he creates these "shards".

I actually expect them to figure it out before the end of the first part. I was more just wanting to know how to best add him into the campaign.