Opinions on builds for a social manipulator type

[Floorlock]

So, I'm currently attempting to build a character who is mostly inclined towards social prowess, keeping secrets, and getting his way through others. I've had different concepts in my head to perform this task...and there are amazing guides on this very site...such as Specter's Social God guide...that have also been a tremendous source of information.

I'm playing a variant human, and the stats I've rolled have been rather generous. One of my numbers will be an 18, and it's possible that I'll start that in Charisma, use one of my Variant Human boosts to make that a 19, and then take the Actor feat to get my Charisma to a straight 20 at level 1. Pretty decent...pretty decent. After that, though...I have a few decisions to make.

I know for a fact that I'm going to be taking a majority of my levels in Bard. I wish that it was as simple as the immediate go to of Rogue 1/Bard 19. However, as a Variant Human...I don't want to be the only one in the party without darkvision. My original concept had him statted up with some Warlock levels...so it seemed easy enough to go for Great Old One Warlock as a 2 level dip to grab Eldritch Blast and the Agonizing Blast cantrip for always-on reliable damage in a pinch...and Devil's Sight to allow myself to not only have dark vision...but, superior darkvision to those around me. Not only did this fit in with a concept of a morally ambiguous social engineer looking into the dark secrets of the multiverse, but, it gave me limited telepathy. My plan was to try my hand at not only stretching the acting feat into people's ears...but, seeing if I could go into people's minds. I don't know if there is a definitive verdict on whether or not the telepathy can replicate voice patterns in someone's mind or not...but, you never know. So...plan set, I though, as I looked over my build of Rogue 1/ Warlock 2/ Bard 17. This would give me all the social abilities rather early...expertise across the board, telepathy, reliable damage when I needed it, ...just...a bunch of stuff...AND, this all fit into a lot of things thematically with his backstory. However, I then finally noticed that Bard has to reach level 18 to get the magical secrets feature for his 9th level spells. This has been the main thing that has caused my rift in thinking. I'm looking down two possible avenues of approach, now. Who knows if I would reach level 20...but, I'm almost certain that I would provided I don't die on my journey to such a level of power...and, I might want to leave the option open to gain spells such as Wish or Meteor Swarm.

Ever since then...I've wondered...would it be a better option to spring for Rogue 1/ Shadow Sorcerer 1/ Bard 18? This way I still get all of my expertise lined up fairly early...boat loads of skills...lots of social options, darkvision, more cantrips, and my caster level will be one level higher. On the other hand...I could go for Bard 1/ Warlock 2/ Bard 17. This option would have me forego the Rogue part altogether...pushing away an extra skill and putting my extra expertise as far away as level 12...and I would only get expertise in 4 skills as opposed to 6. However, I would always have the superior darkvision...even in magical darkness, telepathy, and my always reliable eldritch blast so that I have an option for combat to add to all of my utility.

Which path is better? Is it better to have early, and plentiful expertise for my social exploits...or am I going to really miss having a reliable combat mechanic? Is this meaningless because Bard has potential to get enough blasting power anyways and so I should therefore ignore the Warlock option? Is all of this worth it for the extra two 9th level spells from any class one day? Which direction is the best direction?

[Naanomi]

I like mastermind for this kind of build; either with both Dex and Cha or (if I don't have the stats to support that) magic initiate: warlock to give me Magic Stone to backstab with

[Byke]

Subtle metamagic dominates social encounters...17 sorc / 3 Lock or 17 lock / 3 sorc....who needs skill checks when you can just bend them to your will, with suggestion or charm. You also have many spells that can create distraction or even kill in public without anyone noticing.

*Edit Spelling*

[Specter]

The guide in my signature may help.

[TheUser]

Subtle metamagic dominates social encounters...17 sorc / 3 Lock or 17 lock / 3 sorc....who needs skill checks when you can just bend them to your will, with suggestion or charm. You also have may spells that can create distraction or even kill in public without anyone noticing.

Came here to say this.

Make sure you go dragon sorcerer; having wild magic surges can **** on your subtle spells.

But to give you an example; subtle suggestion breaks 90% of situations.

"Tell me the truth about...."
"Tell me everything you know about....."
"Take me to see....."

The target doesn't even know it's been charmed. It's OP.

I combine with with the actor feat and disguise self to be able to infiltrate and assume the identities of anyone I have killed.

[Toadkiller]

You get a feat out of the gate. Hence no dark vision. Maybe buy a lantern or learn the light cantrip?

[CursedRhubarb]

Goo Lock with some Dragon Sorcerer is my vote. I love the wild magic but can't argue it doesn't make being subtle a bit tricky.

I'd go more lock than sorcerer to get more invocations. Mask of Many Faces is great, for social deception and control, also ones to read all writing and detect magic at will would not be bad.

GOO let's you do the telepathic communication which can be fun but higher levels makes it so your mind can not be read by any means unless you allow it.

Subtle spell + detect thoughts works wonders when gathering info. Combine with MoMF and the Actor feat to impersonate people can easily gain you access to areas (note: servers can get into almost anywhere then MoMF change to a guard or someone once inside.)

Eyes of the Rune Keeper comes in nifty for when those secret documents are written in an obscure and all-but-forgotten language prevent people from reading it or when your targets write in something you aren't fluent in.

Awakened mind, depending on how your DM rules, combined with a deception or performance check can trick people into thinking you speak languages you don't. (Talk in their head but mime words and hand gestures as if talking normally)

If things go bonkers, One With Shadows to turn invisible then when clear MoMF to a new persona and walk on out.

[beargryllz]

I made a non-variant human anti-paladin with 16 str and 16 cha

You can multiclass to warlock, sorceror, fighter, or keep him as an anti-paladin.

This guy is proficient in the social skills and has the noble background. I planned on eventually having him commune with a patron and serve dark powers. He currently has oath of devotion, which he has inverted. He is petty, vengeful, preys upon the weak, has no honor, lies and betrays frequently, and has a chaotic evil alignment.

Probably makes a better villain than a hero... Trample villages atop your dark steed, clad all in steel, with your order of robbers and cruel conquerors

Bards and rogues are probably fine to optimize this because expertise. Use friends or otherwise maintain advantage to social skills.

Overall I think paladin, bard, warlock, and sorcerer are the best to start with this kind of build because you'll want CHA

[Floorlock]

The guide in my signature may help.

Hey Specter. :-) Yeah, I actually made specific mention of your guide in my original post. I really like the concept of going 1 level rogue and then 19 levels of bard...but, I'm building all of this off of a Variant Human and I would like a way to get darkvision and still keep my last magical secrets feature from Bard 18. Because of this, My question moreover pertains to whether or not it's more important to have something like Eldritch/Agonizing blast as a fall back damage dealer in a pinch or if it's better to maximize my skill usage with Early, reliable, and more plentiful skills and expertise. I'm in between going Rogue 1/ Shadow Sorcerer 1/ Bard 18, and Bard 1/ Warlock 2/ Bard 17. :-/

[Specter]

Hey Specter. :-) Yeah, I actually made specific mention of your guide in my original post. I really like the concept of going 1 level rogue and then 19 levels of bard...but, I'm building all of this off of a Variant Human and I would like a way to get darkvision and still keep my last magical secrets feature from Bard 18. Because of this, My question moreover pertains to whether or not it's more important to have something like Eldritch/Agonizing blast as a fall back damage dealer in a pinch or if it's better to maximize my skill usage with Early, reliable, and more plentiful skills and expertise. I'm in between going Rogue 1/ Shadow Sorcerer 1/ Bard 18, and Bard 1/ Warlock 2/ Bard 17. :-/

Oh yeah, totally skipped the first paragraph! Haha...

Well, always remember:
- If you want to do damage, you can always use one of your Additional Magical Secrets for a spell like Fireball, Magic Weapon or Blinding Smite.
- If you don't want to wait too much, you can use Magic Initiate for a damaging cantrip like Eldritch Blast.

All of this without delaying a single level in progression.

But as I said in the "bard woes" thread, don't worry too much about it. Your roles in the party can be, besides social god, can be at least buffer (Inspiration) , debuffer (Cutting Words, Tasha's, Blindness, etc.) and healer (Cure Wounds/Healing Word/Raise Dead), and all of this without even counting on Magical Secrets. If the rest of the cattle, I mean, the other players can't deal some good damage, they don't deserve you.

[Floorlock]

Oh yeah, totally skipped the first paragraph! Haha...

Well, always remember:
- If you want to do damage, you can always use one of your Additional Magical Secrets for a spell like Fireball, Magic Weapon or Blinding Smite.
- If you don't want to wait too much, you can use Magic Initiate for a damaging cantrip like Eldritch Blast.

All of this without delaying a single level in progression.

But as I said in the "bard woes" thread, don't worry too much about it. Your roles in the party can be, besides social god, can be at least buffer (Inspiration) , debuffer (Cutting Words, Tasha's, Blindness, etc.) and healer (Cure Wounds/Healing Word/Raise Dead), and all of this without even counting on Magical Secrets. If the rest of the cattle, I mean, the other players can't deal some good damage, they don't deserve you.

I get ya. Yeah, that's probably all I need...to just focus some of my magical secret gains on some damaging potential...and let others take care of most of the issues. I'm considering all of my options. At the same time...many others here are reminding me of the temptation of the sorcerer's subtle spell option. I have a lot of options to consider.

[Specter]

I get ya. Yeah, that's probably all I need...to just focus some of my magical secret gains on some damaging potential...and let others take care of most of the issues. I'm considering all of my options. At the same time...many others here are reminding me of the temptation of the sorcerer's subtle spell option. I have a lot of options to consider.

It's a boozy, but it's hard to wait until Sorcerer 3 for some social potential. I would consider it if the campaign started at higher levels.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'm playing a variant human, and the stats I've rolled have been rather generous. One of my numbers will be an 18, and it's possible that I'll start that in Charisma, use one of my Variant Human boosts to make that a 19, and then take the Actor feat to get my Charisma to a straight 20 at level 1. Pretty decent...pretty decent. After that, though...I have a few decisions to make.

I know for a fact that I'm going to be taking a majority of my levels in Bard. I wish that it was as simple as the immediate go to of Rogue 1/Bard 19. However, as a Variant Human...I don't want to be the only one in the party without darkvision.

Unless you're totally wed to the Actor feat, switch to Tiefling.

You'd lose Actor and 1 skill proficiency and gain:

2 points direct to charisma; Darvision 60'; Resistance to Fire; 3 charisma spellcasting spells. Tiefling just seems like the superior Bard choice, and it removes the impetus to throw away 2 levels at Warlock since you get Darkvision.