Pushing and Grappling - how often do you use them/are subject to them?

[Willie the Duck]

Right what it says on the tin. The rules are pretty clear. However, how often do they come up in actual play? Are they things you end up doing, or mostly just avoiding your opponents doing to you? You don't often spend much time fighting 5' from a 100' drop or other hazard (although I imagine it feels really good when you can set that up), so I assume you are usually pushing people down for the rogue or into or out of threat ranges. Any thoughts?

[smcmike]

One way I've been using Push is to create an entry for my teammates to get involved in tight spaces.

For example, in our most recent fight, in LMoP, I rather carelessly shoved my way through a door while chasing an enemy, only to find myself in a room full of more enemies, who promptly closed on me. At this point, my options were:

Attack, and try to weather hits from like 5 enemies, while my team watched and shot arrows down the hall. (Suicide)

Disengage, and create a situation where the hallway becomes a choke point and whoever is up front on the baddies' initiative gets slammed by a conga line of pain. (Boring and ugly).

Push, creating space to move a bit further into the room, and for my friends to get in too.

A similar situation occurred where I was first in the face of a fairly powerful monster, who was behind cover for most of my party. I shoved him out of cover, and they lit him up. Just attacking probably would have gotten me killed.

So don't underestimate just moving your enemies around the battlefield.

[Plaguescarred]

We use it rarely, especially pushing or shoving unless a terrain or spell effect gives some tactical advantage. grappling too, unless an escape must be avoided. The cost is considerable and most prefer to use their action for something like attacking when fighting.

Because grappling is more frequently found built-in as part of an attack than push or shove, grappling see more use at our table as monsters will often be able to grapple in addition to causing damage during an attack, which reduce the cost significantly.

[Zevox]

Pushing - Very rarely, only when the terrain is right for it.
Grappling - We never use it, monsters only do when they have a special ability involving it. Just doesn't feel useful compared to regular options.

Doesn't help that most of our normal party are magic types with poor Athletics, either.

[Joe the Rat]

For us, Grapples are infrequent - maybe one in 4, mostly to secure someone. Half the time that someone being another party member. (so 1 in 8 combats about)
Athletics Push goes up significantly when you have a Shield Master that knows what they're doing. It works best in a team effort.

Pushing in general happens all the damn time with Warlocks (particularly where it puts them in range of or away from another character), but that's not what you're after.

[Ninja_Prawn]

As a DM, I use grappling a lot when lethal violence isn't called for. So, one time, I tried to kidnap two pixie PCs by grabbing them and running off. Another time, I had a giant octopus drag some oarsmen of the PCs' ship to make the combat more dynamic. It's quite useful.

[Tanarii]

Constantly from those built for it. Ie usually both medium to high Str and prof in Athletics. About equally since Grapple requires a free hand and very few characters can spare that. Plus push can prone. But Grapple is generally more useful for positioning, of course.

Either is fairly powerful. They lets you get something out from cover / concealment, prone, take advantage of chokepoints or stop the enemy from taking advantage of them, and abuse AoE/spell zones. And of course prone your enemies for adv on melee attacks for you and all your buddies. Of course, many of those depend on initiative order (and possibly them escaping a grapple to move), and the lack of Delay in this edition stops them from becoming overly powerful in that regard.

One of the move powerful options is to do both. Push them prone then grapple them. They can't stand up unless they can escape.

YMMV depending on what kind of enemies your DM throws at you of course. :smalltongue:

I commonly see Athletics taken as a defensive measure even by those with low Str, because unlike Acrobatics DMs often use Athletics checks outside of defending against grapples, but only rarely Acrobatics. But that's a problem with the DM, not with the skills themselves.

[JAL_1138]

One of my characters is an OotA Paladin with Shield Master. Attempt a Shove (knock prone) almost every single round, assuming the creature is Large or smaller and I have the bonus action available. Sets me up to Smite with Advantage.

EDIT: I meant Oath of the Ancients, not Out of the Abyss. I haven't played that module so I don't know how well this heavily-armored, Strength-based, elk-riding, shield-bashing Green Knight would work in it. If we ever need to sneak anywhere, he's probably sunk.

[Willie the Duck]

One of my characters is an OotA Paladin with Shield Master. Attempt a Shove (knock prone) almost every single round, assuming the creature is Large or smaller and I have the bonus action available. Sets me up to Smite with Advantage.

I was vaguely considering the same.

I am working on my first character--a front liner, working with ranger, life domain cleric, and sorc/wizard/warlock (he hasn't decided yet), and about to go through the out of the abyss adventure path. I've been waffling on whether to make a Dex-based paladin or Str-based, and also whether to go after feats or just get my important stats to 20 asap.

Since I figure stealth is probably pretty useful, going str-based seems like a gamble, so I'm trying to gauge the value of athletics+str over acrobatics+dex.

[Joe the Rat]

If you have the points, 14 dex and medium armor with a shield can carry you pretty far. Also, see if you are using group stealth, or have someone Help you to at least mitigate the Disadvantage.

Acrobatics will help more with balance - uneven footing can be an issue, particularly in OOTA. In combat, it's purely defensive.
Athletics will help more with jumping and climbing, important after you fall somewhere. In combat, it is offense and defense.

Part of the question is if you have a designated melee buddy. knockdown is good for melee, but hurts if everyone else is shooting.

[mgshamster]

In my OotA game, our druid pushes opponents as often savage can, trying to shove them to the ground to get advantage whenever he changes into a bear.

I've also seen PCs and bad guys push/shove to try to knock people off of edges or into firepits or into another group of bad guys.

Grappling happens pretty often, too. More often with humanoids because they don't want to kill but would rather capture. Sometimes with monsters who have a grappling mechanic or are trying to eat you.

But yeah, I see it a lot.

[EvilAnagram]

My players love it. They have completely destroyed high-level encounters by ambushing casters and grappling, pushing, and blindfolding them.

[JAL_1138]

Part of the question is if you have a designated melee buddy. knockdown is good for melee, but hurts if everyone else is shooting.

Absolutely true. The party my Paladin is in is fairly heavily (too heavily) melee-focused, so when I knock someone down, we gang up on them, so it's a huge help for us. If I was the only melee-focused combatant, yeah, I'd be getting Advantage on my Smites, but everyone else would be getting Disadvantage on their attack rolls.

[MrStabby]

As a DM I use it when I can. It breaks up combat and makes it more than just attack action after attack action.

Shoving enemies prone is great for piling in on a single character. It can really bring home the mob mentality to a crowd of enemies as well as making low level beasties more scary.

Pushing enemies into things is less common. Sometimes off a bridge, once down a scree slope and once out of a window. Often used with grapples to get them there. It's happened enough that players are quite keen prepare featherfall if they can.

Grapples make sense in some encounters. I like to pull PCs into magical darkness, into water or fire, into the effects of a hallow spell or silence spell and so on, putting them at a significant disadvantage. Sometimes it is just pulling them into an inaccessible location - I had some apes drag a couple of PCs into a tree whilst the others on the ground were desperately trying to make checks to climb up to help them.

Use of most of these does work better with maps than with TotM though as it makes tactical positioning much more important in the encounter.

[Willie the Duck]

If you have the points, 14 dex and medium armor with a shield can carry you pretty far.

Well, we roll, and I rolled an impressive run, and could actually put a 14 in dex while having that or more in Str, Con, and Cha (as a half-elf, which I want for the skills and darkvision).
The best medium armor that doesn't disadvantage stealth leaves you at AC 16+(shield, magic, fighting style, etc). Is that enough for a front-liner? It would also be nice to have that 14 in, say, Wisdom for Perception rolls, but if dex/acrobatics is necessary, I'd like to know.



see if you are using group stealth, or have someone Help you to at least mitigate the Disadvantage

A great question. My DM is also brand new to 5e, so he'll undoubtedly use what is most clearly presented as normal in the books, whichever that is.



Acrobatics will help more with balance - uneven footing can be an issue, particularly in OOTA. In combat, it's purely defensive.
Athletics will help more with jumping and climbing, important after you fall somewhere. In combat, it is offense and defense.

So both are rather useful in a underground, dungeon-and-tunnel-based adventuring? No surprise. Think it is worth it to take both? My 1/2 elf paladin was going to have an outlander background and go Athletics, Deception, Insight, Perception, Persuasion, and Survival, but going sailor, and exchanging Survival for Acrobatics would be feasible.



Part of the question is if you have a designated melee buddy. knockdown is good for melee, but hurts if everyone else is shooting.

The ranger likes 2wf from earlier editions, so I'm thinking yes.


In my OotA game, our druid pushes opponents as often savage can, trying to shove them to the ground to get advantage whenever he changes into a bear.

That's cool.



I've also seen PCs and bad guys push/shove to try to knock people off of edges or into firepits or into another group of bad guys.

Grappling happens pretty often, too. More often with humanoids because they don't want to kill but would rather capture. Sometimes with monsters who have a grappling mechanic or are trying to eat you.

But yeah, I see it a lot.

Sounds like it is universal for a front liner to want to have a defense against it, but situational to have opportunity to use it oneself.

[Foxhound438]

There's definitely some build around potential for shove prone + grapple using shield master to get it done more efficiently. 2 good options to accomplish this: first, if you're stuck in AL land, go to HotDQ and kill some of the guys with spiked shields. Pick one up, and put away your weapon. If memory serves, it's a d6 piercing weapon, and attacking with it doesn't take away the AC bonus. So turn one, pick the most dangerous looking foe, grapple him and use your bonus action to shove him prone. If you're allowed UA, build a minotaur and do the same thing, except you have advantage on the shove and get a d10 horn attack.

Generally though, shove and grapple are pretty rare. Maybe I'd use it if I was fairly confident that I could win the contest and wanted to start hitting something else I would shove back as a side grade disengage. Shove prone is fairly popular for GWM fighter builds past level 11 since (theoretically) 2 attacks with advantage is better than 3 without. Grappling on the other hand is extremely rare. Maybe use it to pull something away from my casters, but having to have a free hand makes that hard to justify.

[Willie the Duck]

Shove prone is fairly popular for GWM fighter builds past level 11 since (theoretically) 2 attacks with advantage is better than 3 without.

I would think simply having another number to contest (that your opponent might have at a low level) is a significant advantage.

PC1: "This enemy must have a 25 AC, I'm not hitting for $%&@!"

PC2: "Well, try pushing them down, they might not have the right skill, and then you'll give the rest of the group twice as many chances (through advantage) to succeed in hitting them."

[R.Shackleford]

Right what it says on the tin. The rules are pretty clear. However, how often do they come up in actual play? Are they things you end up doing, or mostly just avoiding your opponents doing to you? You don't often spend much time fighting 5' from a 100' drop or other hazard (although I imagine it feels really good when you can set that up), so I assume you are usually pushing people down for the rogue or into or out of threat ranges. Any thoughts?

As a DM? All the time. I'll even replace damage with grapple/shove on a enemy.

So if anot enemy does 3d8 damage? I'll give the target resistance but the enemy will grab or shove them.

As a player?

I have a Strogue that can get advantage on Athletics checks via a magic item... So... a lot.

I put Charger on my melee clerics for maximum pushage.

[Tanarii]

My players love it. They have completely destroyed high-level encounters by ambushing casters and grappling, pushing, and blindfolding them.Only the blindfolding part stops spellcasting though. And even then, not all spells.

[gfishfunk]

As a DM, I have been using normal push / shove rules with trash mobs: 1/4 CR rated guys like skeletons that work in pairs. One shoves (prone) and the other attacks as a part of the Necromancer's instructions. I also tell me players over an over again 'these are standard shove rules, anyone can use them'. My players have yet to use them.

[JAL_1138]

Only the blindfolding part stops spellcasting though. And even then, not all spells.

And if the caster in question is only Grappled, they can simply use their free object interaction to remove it. Grappled =/= restrained. The grappled caster still has free use of both arms.

EDIT: Actually, they do with the Restrained condition too. The only difference is attacks against them have Advantage, their attacks have Disadvantage, and they have Disadvantage on Dex saves. It takes the Incapacitated condition to stop them from simply removing the blindfold as an object interaction.

[beargryllz]

Right what it says on the tin. The rules are pretty clear. However, how often do they come up in actual play? Are they things you end up doing, or mostly just avoiding your opponents doing to you? You don't often spend much time fighting 5' from a 100' drop or other hazard (although I imagine it feels really good when you can set that up), so I assume you are usually pushing people down for the rogue or into or out of threat ranges. Any thoughts?

I use it almost every round in combat, but I have dueling style and the shield master feat. It's one of the best combinations in 5e. It basically gives myself and the party advantage forever and that is just awesome. Even large creatures are often going to go down for a bonus action that wouldn't otherwise be used at all.

I use it to knock people over or knock them into position for someone else to finish off. I was using it even before I had shield master if there were cliffs or bridges around because 10d6 damage at lvl 1 is cool.

As others have mentioned, a grapple VS a priority target is an automatic win for an encounter, no initiative check required even.

[EvilAnagram]

Only the blindfolding part stops spellcasting though. And even then, not all spells.
The grappling and pushing them down kept them from removing the blindfold, running off, or both. I also ruled that an attempt to cover someone's mouth would function as a grapple, as would blindfolding them so long as they held iy in place. Since between the Paladin, Fighter, and Valor Bard they had six attacks, they were able to grapple, blindfold, push, and clamp the mouth of a mjnor antagonist, then start shanking. This was before the surprise round ended.

[JAL_1138]

Cloud of Daggers is a fairly useless spell...until somebody Grapples, moves the target into it, and holds them there. Then it's gold. Works great with Spirit Guardians too.

[smcmike]

Also, from a purely fluff perspective, shoving people around and grabbing them and dragging them is just the perfect primal expression of dominance.

"Oh, you're the big boss around here? Well, I just knocked you on your rear, what do you think about that? Hmm, you have more to say? How about you tell it to the campfire? Here, whisper it right in the embers...."

[Tanarii]

The grappling and pushing them down kept them from removing the blindfold, running off, or both. I also ruled that an attempt to cover someone's mouth would function as a grapple, as would blindfolding them so long as they held iy in place. Since between the Paladin, Fighter, and Valor Bard they had six attacks, they were able to grapple, blindfold, push, and clamp the mouth of a mjnor antagonist, then start shanking. This was before the surprise round ended.That's all more than a grapple does, in fact it's more than the Feat for grappling allows.

OTOH, I can understand ruling that way. Multiple grapple checks makes the most sense for slowly restraining someone.

[Foxhound438]

And if the caster in question is only Grappled, they can simply use their free object interaction to remove it. Grappled =/= restrained. The grappled caster still has free use of both arms.

EDIT: Actually, they do with the Restrained condition too. The only difference is attacks against them have Advantage, their attacks have Disadvantage, and they have Disadvantage on Dex saves. It takes the Incapacitated condition to stop them from simply removing the blindfold as an object interaction.

which is weird as hell thematically considering that a handcuffed person can still do all their somatic arm waving in giant circles around them, but it is what it is.

Edit: and by the way, that handcuffed person can't walk. heheheheHAHAHAHA

god this edition just gets dumb when you start getting into this kind of rules minutia. I love 5e to death, but god damn son.

[R.Shackleford]

which is weird as hell thematically considering that a handcuffed person can still do all their somatic arm waving in giant circles around them, but it is what it is.

Edit: and by the way, that handcuffed person can't walk. heheheheHAHAHAHA

god this edition just gets dumb when you start getting into this kind of rules minutia. I love 5e to death, but god damn son.

At least drowning a creature doesn't heal it...

[Willie the Duck]

god this edition just gets dumb when you start getting into this kind of rules minutia. I love 5e to death, but god damn son.

They made quite clear from the get-go that they were not writing to that level of minutia analysis, and that you should be able to figure out for yourself that restrained:handcuffed didn't stop you from walking, etc. etc. You can criticize that decision, but they are enforcing it consistently.

I agree with the decision. It stops things like...


At least drowning a creature doesn't heal it...

...this from happening.

[bardo]

which is weird as hell thematically considering that a handcuffed person can still do all their somatic arm waving in giant circles around them, but it is what it is.

Edit: and by the way, that handcuffed person can't walk. heheheheHAHAHAHA

god this edition just gets dumb when you start getting into this kind of rules minutia. I love 5e to death, but god damn son.

I try to think of 5e grappling as grabbing someone by their collar. It's your free hand cancelling their movement, nothing more. The name itself is confusing for historic reasons. It's no longer the greco roman affair it used to be in past editions.

Still waiting for the opportunity to grapple a baddie and jump off a cliff together. Hasn't come up yet.

Bardo.

[RulesJD]

I use it all the time, especially as a DM against powergaming players.

Why?

A few reasons:

1. They are "checks" not saves, which means Legendary Saves and abilities that boost saves (Bless, Paladin Aura, etc) don't help.

2. A lot of players try to get effects that impart Disadvantage on enemy attacks (Invisibility, Blindness, Darkness, etc). That doesn't do squat to Grapple -> Knock Prone checks.

3. Players get super mobile at later levels (Monk, Rogues, etc). Ready Action -> Grapple attempt by 3-4 mobs means they are now stuck in the fight.

[R.Shackleford]

I try to think of 5e grappling as grabbing someone by their collar. It's your free hand cancelling their movement, nothing more. The name itself is confusing for historic reasons. It's no longer the greco roman affair it used to be in past editions.

Still waiting for the opportunity to grapple a baddie and jump off a cliff together. Hasn't come up yet.

Bardo.

4e called it grab, because well, you were grabbing someone or something.

Calling it grappling is majorly stupid.

[EvilAnagram]

I think its use against PCs is limited. Most monsters do not have Athletics proficiency, but 90%of PCs will have either Athletics or Acrobatics.

[R.Shackleford]

I think its use against PCs is limited. Most monsters do not have Athletics proficiency, but 90%of PCs will have either Athletics or Acrobatics.

You are severely overstating how many characters have one of those two skills.

Even with proficiency, strength based monsters who would be using shove/grapple gain enough of a bonus to keep up with the players that it isn't one sided (note: expertise is broken but that's 2/13 classes and MC is an optional rule).

Bugbear (CR 1): +2 Str + Prof (I doubt any DM would say a highly militaristic bug bear wouldn't gain a prof bonus to shove/grappling)

At level one your brutes will have about a +5 to athletics. Even with a +2 and no prof the difference between the two is not great enough to never attempt shove/grappling.

Wyvern (CR 6): +4 strength versus +7 athletics (4 str + 3 prof). Another famous creature I could see gaining prof to shoving. 3 points difference even if you give it no bonus.

Treant (CR 9): +9 str versus +9 Athletics (5 str + 4
Prof). Another creature that could gain a bonus to their Athletics check (it's a fricken siege monster for crying out loud and has the mental scores to easily learn better fighting skills).

Kraken (CR 23): +17 (special) versus + 11 (5 Str + 6 Prof).


The numbers, for creatures that will attempt shove/grappling) aren't all that bad against what the players will get. There is no need to overreact.

Besides, if your players want to wrestle you should give a creature an adequate bonus to challenge the player. Set it up where Grapply McGrappleface comes to town to challenge said player.

[Vogonjeltz]

Right what it says on the tin. The rules are pretty clear. However, how often do they come up in actual play? Are they things you end up doing, or mostly just avoiding your opponents doing to you? You don't often spend much time fighting 5' from a 100' drop or other hazard (although I imagine it feels really good when you can set that up), so I assume you are usually pushing people down for the rogue or into or out of threat ranges. Any thoughts?

So far, every single combat. Even at low levels as a party we're pretty keen on grappling, then shoving an enemy prone (so they can't stand up until they break the grapple, providing advantage to all attackers for the duration) then wailing on them.

[mgshamster]

I try to think of 5e grappling as grabbing someone by their collar. It's your free hand cancelling their movement, nothing more. The name itself is confusing for historic reasons. It's no longer the greco roman affair it used to be in past editions.

Still waiting for the opportunity to grapple a baddie and jump off a cliff together. Hasn't come up yet.

Bardo.

I did that as a GM to one of my PCs. Had a gargoyle grapple a PC and fly off a cliff to drop him. Unbeknownst to the gargoyle, the player had featherfall ready to cast.

[R.Shackleford]

I did that as a GM to one of my PCs. Had a gargoyle grapple a PC and fly off a cliff to drop him. Unbeknownst to the gargoyle, the player had featherfall ready to cast.

If a player has feather fall you better know damn well I'm going to make them use it for more than traps and "I don't want to climb down".

(I really wouldn't be able to look my players in the eyes if I didnt... :smallwink:)

[EvilAnagram]

If a player has feather fall you better know damn well I'm going to make them use it for more than traps and "I don't want to climb down".

(I really wouldn't be able to look my players in the eyes if I didnt... :smallwink:)

Ha! I dropped my players out of a tower... that appeared from the ethereal plane in the skies above a city they were trying to protect. The bard dropped his last spell slot, fourth level, to keep from plunging earthward, so they got a front row seat as masonry rained down on the buildings below.

After the session, one of them asked what would have happened if he hadn't saved that slot.

I told him he would have taken 10d6 falling damage.

[SmokingSkull]

As a player it depends on the character. My current one is really good at grappling due to his race, stats and class. And as for use it honestly depends, for some enemies who like to hit and run or won't stand still then yes I'll grab the little f&%$ and keep them still >:) As for shoving about half our party can dish out damn good melee (Me being one of them) so it does help, especially against high AC targets. Once in a while I shove enemies around in the flavorful form of a spartan kick, or my recently modified pike which now grants me advantage on those checks when I use the weapon to do so.

I've done things like leap several feet in the air (With the aid of a Ring of Jumping, I know not everyone will have one but still) and knocked flying creatures prone in the air. I also grappled said flying thing on the ground and maintained it for several rounds, all the while headbutting and knee kicking it to death which I did. On the rare occasion I even use disarm, but this isn't the thread for that so I digress. It honestly just depends on the scenario and whether or not it would be useful at least ime.