URA simulacrum. What do you do?

[Dalebert]

You've just been created to be exactly the same as a particular creature with a couple of exceptions. Presumably, you know you're a simulacrum and thus probably have a limited time in this world. Also, you are obligated to obey all orders from your creator.

What are your motivations? Do you even have any until ordered? Do they match the creature you're duplicated from until you're ordered otherwise? What do you do if you're given an order that you are incapable of following? How do orders like "Love me" or "Desire X" affect you?

The spell leaves a lot wide open for interpretation. How do you fill in the gaps? GO!

[MrStabby]

This is basically like being human.

We get injured and we die, we are delicate and cant take much damage. There is no hope of magical healing. We feel we were created with a purpose but don't know what. Some may even believe their creator is a more powerful being, although others may not.

We may never level up, as we age we become weaker not stronger. We think we learn until we see ourselves making the same mistakes again and again.

[smcmike]

Three ways it could go. I draw two of them from Black Mirror:

1. The Sim is a soulless copy, and will only ever be motivated to serve to caster. It has access to the memories and personality of the original, but is just a mimic, not a person. It will never have any wants of its own. (This is the black mirror episode where a sim is created to replace a lost lover).

2. The Sim is a complete copy, down to motivation and intention, but with a magical restrainer bolt of obedience. When awakened, it may think that it is the real thing, and even remember being extracted from "its" body. This sim will be hard to control, since it comes with its own goals. (This is the black mirror episode where people's personalities are copied and turned into digital assistants for those people).

3. The Sim is a blank slate with some memories and personality implanted (like 1), but may develop its own selfhood over time. (Blade runner).

[Shining Wrath]

"As little as possible" is what you do. Every time you expend a resource it represents one step closer to being useless and therefore easily sacrificed as raw materials or to hold a door for a round. So you avoid danger, avoid helping people, and pretty much try to stay out of sight.

[Dalebert]

This is basically like being human.

This post wins the Internet!


Three ways it could go. I draw two of them from Black Mirror:

Love that show! Great examples.


"As little as possible" is what you do.

This implies most motivation stemming from an intense fear of death. Interesting.

[DizzyWood]

If I were DMing this I might take a page from Marvel's Multiple-Man. He can create duplicates and they are all him but different aspects of himself. So they are generally all on the same page but sometimes you get the self hating version of yourself or the tint part of you that is really into furry porn. So the sim will be under your control obviously and will follow your orders but it might interpenetrate them differently that you would expect. The Sim would know it is a part of you and generally it would WANT to do your bidding but it might go about things in a wacky and different way. You can get as dark as you want with it really.

[CursedRhubarb]

How do orders like "Love me" or "Desire X" affect you?

This makes me want to play a flamboyant elven wizard.

Bartender: What'll it be?
Elf: Just water for me thanks.
Bartender: Go [expletive] yourself elf.
Elf: Oh honey, I have just the spell for that.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

If I possess some degree of independent judgement and self preservation, my primary objective will be to either cast true polymorph on myself or seek out a being capable of doing so, changing myself permanently into the most powerful metallic dragon form available*, hoping that the transformation will mean I cease to qualify as a Sim. If this does not function I will attempt to use wish to achieve a similar effect. Assuming success, I then take steps to prevent the transformation from being reversed. If unsuccessful, my objective will shift to trying to acquire a full existence by other means, possibly by petitioning outsiders. I mean, Asmodeus must be able to spare at least one...

*I chose metallic dragons both for the form being a fairly pleasant one to be, and for the ability of an adult or ancient metallic dragon to change form, giving it both the ability to fit in with mortal races and unparalleled options with regards to spell access and such.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Simulacra are only semi-real, and they lack "the ability to learn or become more powerful." They are clearly not an exact duplicate of the mind of the caster or any other property. They are similar to the caster, but as the name of the spell itself suggests, they are a markedly imperfect and limited representation.

Because of this, and because of the "friendly/helpful/obeys commands" clauses, I view them as an extension of the caster, without their own agency. Imagine a part of your brain processing information and coming up with an idea. That part of the brain can be very smart, and come up with brilliant insights, but it still needs help from the rest of the brain to, for instance, learn new things or analyze the whole self. It's the whole brain that has agency. Similarly, something is missing from the Sim that would give it those unique properties that a whole brain has. That's why the Sim automatically obeys your commands, and treats you in a friendly manner, and can't learn new things or regain spell slots.

The downside to this is that, it's more useful as a body double or a helper than (for instance) a spy. While the Sim is far more sophisticated than the social media copy in the one Black Mirror episode, it's far less sophisticated than the one in the Christmas Special.Or rather, if you think more towards the end of that vignette, the Sim is more like the fully-intelligent copy after it's been broken, without all the emotional trauma.

To answer the specific questions brought about by the OP:
- The Sim's motivations are what it believes to be the motivations of the caster. This is simple enough at time of creation (as those memories seem to be retained), but changing motivations might need to be explained later on.
- What if you told your own brain or body to do something it couldn't do? The response would be that it was impossible. If you told yourself to try anyway, you might go through the motions, pretending as though you were following through with the command.

[Malifice]

"As little as possible" is what you do. Every time you expend a resource it represents one step closer to being useless and therefore easily sacrificed as raw materials or to hold a door for a round. So you avoid danger, avoid helping people, and pretty much try to stay out of sight.

Not if your creator had wish prepared.

Heck, even if you have teleport, I'd teleport away before my creator could order me around (I know exactly what he has planned for me seeing as Im a copy of him - and I also know Im bound to obey him so I better act fast) and find someone else to cast it on me to remove those restrictions.

[Talionis]

An interesting way to look at it is that the Sim has intelligence, it knows its a copy of someone else, it knows it has to absolutely follow the commands of its creator. I'd say the longer they are around the more knowing all those things would change the personality of the copied person. There was an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation where a clone of Commander Riker was created and left for dead on a planet. Being alone changed that copy and the copy that had learned new things had grown more mature.

The sim might be focused on obtaining wealth in his down time because he knows that's the only way for him to heal.
The Sim might be a lot more scared to do things that are risky.
The Sim might go to school to be a lawyer or learn more about logic to be able to process the orders.
The Sim might become more religious in personality because he sees that even though he is a copy he may die soon.
The Sim might not be able to comply with some orders fully. Ordering him to fall in love with someone might not work, ie he might try very hard to fall in love and not be able to do it because as a copy he was always in love with someone else already. Or it could also make for a complicated situation where the Sim finds itself in love with two people at once.

And I'm saying none of this has to be the way you play with Sims in your game because since the Sim is incapable of gaining experience it might just be stuck unable to learn or change even with the knowledge that its a clone.

The DM has a lot of work to do with a spell like Simulacrum, but it usually makes for interesting plot lines and role playing.

[Vogonjeltz]

You've just been created to be exactly the same as a particular creature with a couple of exceptions. Presumably, you know you're a simulacrum and thus probably have a limited time in this world. Also, you are obligated to obey all orders from your creator.

What are your motivations? Do you even have any until ordered? Do they match the creature you're duplicated from until you're ordered otherwise? What do you do if you're given an order that you are incapable of following? How do orders like "Love me" or "Desire X" affect you?

The spell leaves a lot wide open for interpretation. How do you fill in the gaps? GO!

As I read it, the simulacrum is basically a really convincing puppet.

It doesn't do anything on its own, but since it responds to the caster's verbal orders, it could be ordered to go about its day as if it were the real thing, then report back at X time.

In such a way, a simulacrum could be used to ...replace an enemy (infiltration/subterfuge/usurpation) or a friend (decoy) fooling enemies/friends of the original.

As such it has no motivations (except those of orders), it's an illusory duplicate made of snow and ice, not a person.

Incapable simply means failure is certain, not that trying is impossible. The duplicate would presumably try and continue to try until the order was rescinded or the goal was achieved.

The emotion orders would result in the simulacrum displaying that affect. That doesn't make it real, if that was your concern.

[Ghost Nappa]

So... has anyone ever played/watched Tales of the Abyss?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Not if your creator had wish prepared.

Heck, even if you have teleport, I'd teleport away before my creator could order me around (I know exactly what he has planned for me seeing as Im a copy of him - and I also know Im bound to obey him so I better act fast) and find someone else to cast it on me to remove those restrictions.How friendly and helpful of you.

[Sigreid]

I don't think it's right to look at the spell as an excuse to punish/mess with the character. The way I read it, it's taking ice and snow and using advanced magic to make it appear to be you and give it a cheap, hacked copy of the persons current mind. It's not a creature, it's closer to a construct like a golem that doesn't have any real desires of its own and just enough mind to act like the subject person and follow orders like a really good program might.

[Temperjoke]

I would just like to point out that there is a now a version of Simulacrum in SKT (in the spellbook of a cloud giant) that allows for creating multiple simulacra of the same creature at once.

Anyways, I think it would depend on the initial orders. Let's say that the wizard casting the spell was making a simulacrum of someone he loved who was dying/dead, then ordered the simulacrum to act as that person did. I'd imagine that the simulacrum would do so, maybe with the inability to generate new memories or something similar. The simulacrum could even be ordered to forget that it was a fake, although it might come to that realization on it's own.

[Malifice]

How friendly and helpful of you.

Im there to help my creator am I not?

I can help him a lot better with replenishing slots, than with a small number of finite slots.

Remember - when given a task the Sim has enough initiative to decide how to go about the task. Saying 'Kill that Orc' lets it kill the Orc with a spell of its choosing, or close to melee with it, or fall back to higher ground, and roll a boulder on it, or hire a mercenary army of its own to kill the Orc.

I suggest discussing the issue with an AI expert. They'll happily explain to you a million problems and issues around AI's like the Simulacrum.

A creative DM can stop abuse of this spell very easily.

[Talionis]

One thing that people should keep in mind when reading the Spell Similacrum is that if you take the rule of no gaining experience out to its complete logical extension they cannot react to their environment because they can't learn their is a tree in front of them. Obviously this kind of ridiculous extension is not the RAI for this spell.

Which begs the question not whether they can learn but how much can they learn and that is the scope of this thread. But I think it's a given they can learn in non game mechanics ways.

Simulacrum is one of the most powerful spells in the game. It breaks action economy by a lot probably the most of any spell or mechanic in Fifth Edition. So I think it's fair to consider it might have some downsides especially overtime. IE you Sim an Evil creature and you may have to keep it on a short leash. Sims have their own stats for Intelligence Wisdom and Charisma. How devoted can you be? Even if you are extremely devoted you'll probably have downtime eventually. Eventually your creator won't be right next to you and then your base personality and stats have to take over to fill in the gaps in your orders. The Sims are able to impersonate the person the cloned that requires filling in tons of gaps and maintaining complex reactions to the environment in the same way the original would.

I think leaving a Sim with a lot of idle time could be potentially dangerous and an interesting plot hook.

[Dalebert]

I think leaving a Sim with a lot of idle time could be potentially dangerous and an interesting plot hook.

And in fact, it sounds str8 out of the plot of countless stories and films, whether it's a magical simulacrum, a clone, an android...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Im there to help my creator am I not?

I can help him a lot better with replenishing slots, than with a small number of finite slots.The Sim knows that the creator knows this. And yet it still teleports away. Because what, a limited copy of the caster knows better? If the caster gives a vague order and the Sim gets a bit creative, that's one thing. But you're saying the Sim immediately teleports away from the caster so that it can contravene orders it knows are coming. That is in no way helpful. That's more like if you bound an angry demon and ordered it to be "helpful."

It doesn't take "creative" disregard of words and their meanings to stop Simulacrum from being abusive. Besides, you haven't actually fixed the spell. You've turned it from a broken monstrosity (at least once Wish is involved) into a completely unusable mess based entirely on DM whim, when instead you could simply say that Sims can't make more Sims, even with Wish, and be done with it.

[Talionis]

The Sim knows that the creator knows this. And yet it still teleports away. Because what, a limited copy of the caster knows better? If the caster gives a vague order and the Sim gets a bit creative, that's one thing. But you're saying the Sim immediately teleports away from the caster so that it can contravene orders it knows are coming. That is in no way helpful. That's more like if you bound an angry demon and ordered it to be "helpful."

It doesn't take "creative" disregard of words and their meanings to stop Simulacrum from being abusive. Besides, you haven't actually fixed the spell. You've turned it from a broken monstrosity (at least once Wish is involved) into a completely unusable mess based entirely on DM whim, when instead you could simply say that Sims can't make more Sims, even with Wish, and be done with it.

Although it would be interesting for Intellectual Sim to think its smarter than its creator and try to subvert the creators plans in order to actually benefit the creator more with the Sims own plan.

[Vogonjeltz]

One thing that people should keep in mind when reading the Spell Similacrum is that if you take the rule of no gaining experience out to its complete logical extension they cannot react to their environment because they can't learn their is a tree in front of them. Obviously this kind of ridiculous extension is not the RAI for this spell.

Which begs the question not whether they can learn but how much can they learn and that is the scope of this thread. But I think it's a given they can learn in non game mechanics ways.

Simulacrum is one of the most powerful spells in the game. It breaks action economy by a lot probably the most of any spell or mechanic in Fifth Edition. So I think it's fair to consider it might have some downsides especially overtime. IE you Sim an Evil creature and you may have to keep it on a short leash. Sims have their own stats for Intelligence Wisdom and Charisma. How devoted can you be? Even if you are extremely devoted you'll probably have downtime eventually. Eventually your creator won't be right next to you and then your base personality and stats have to take over to fill in the gaps in your orders. The Sims are able to impersonate the person the cloned that requires filling in tons of gaps and maintaining complex reactions to the environment in the same way the original would.

I think leaving a Sim with a lot of idle time could be potentially dangerous and an interesting plot hook.

Its senses work fine. It could see the tree, and if it had a book in front of it identifying the tree it could read the name out loud, but it couldn't learn the name of a strange tree. So if you closed the book and asked the name of the tree, it would just shrug and say I don't know.

[Sigreid]

I'm surprised no one ever seems to talk about the other use/abuse of simulacrum. Even if you just keep to one at a time is it worth a couple hundred k and a few weeks to have fake you cast wish to give you resistance to all damage? I say abso-fricken-lutely.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Although it would be interesting for Intellectual Sim to think its smarter than its creator and try to subvert the creators plans in order to actually benefit the creator more with the Sims own plan.I cast Dunning-Kruger's Overconfident Simulacrum.

[Zalabim]

One thing that people should keep in mind when reading the Spell Similacrum is that if you take the rule of no gaining experience out to its complete logical extension they cannot react to their environment because they can't learn their is a tree in front of them. Obviously this kind of ridiculous extension is not the RAI for this spell.

Which begs the question not whether they can learn but how much can they learn and that is the scope of this thread. But I think it's a given they can learn in non game mechanics ways.

Simulacrum is one of the most powerful spells in the game. It breaks action economy by a lot probably the most of any spell or mechanic in Fifth Edition. So I think it's fair to consider it might have some downsides especially overtime. IE you Sim an Evil creature and you may have to keep it on a short leash. Sims have their own stats for Intelligence Wisdom and Charisma. How devoted can you be? Even if you are extremely devoted you'll probably have downtime eventually. Eventually your creator won't be right next to you and then your base personality and stats have to take over to fill in the gaps in your orders. The Sims are able to impersonate the person the cloned that requires filling in tons of gaps and maintaining complex reactions to the environment in the same way the original would.

I think leaving a Sim with a lot of idle time could be potentially dangerous and an interesting plot hook.

I definitely don't think it's obvious that a simulacrum has to work this way, but it does make for some more interesting story interaction. The safest way to run it is as a puppet that imitates a creature rather than as an independently-minded creature. It doesn't roll initiative and follows its creator's verbal orders (even if it can't understand its creator's language). If it's a puppet, a simulacrum that's cut off from hearing its creator's orders would just not do anything. That gives it a distinct weakness and limits what you can have one do.

On the other hand, it is friendly to designated creatures and capable of taking actions like a normal creature, which does imply it is capable of coming up with actions to take on its own like a normal creature and able to be convinced to do things by creatures other than its creator.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

One thing that people should keep in mind when reading the Spell Similacrum is that if you take the rule of no gaining experience out to its complete logical extension they cannot react to their environment because they can't learn their is a tree in front of them. Obviously this kind of ridiculous extension is not the RAI for this spell.

Which begs the question not whether they can learn but how much can they learn and that is the scope of this thread. But I think it's a given they can learn in non game mechanics ways.

Simulacrum is one of the most powerful spells in the game. It breaks action economy by a lot probably the most of any spell or mechanic in Fifth Edition. So I think it's fair to consider it might have some downsides especially overtime. IE you Sim an Evil creature and you may have to keep it on a short leash. Sims have their own stats for Intelligence Wisdom and Charisma. How devoted can you be? Even if you are extremely devoted you'll probably have downtime eventually. Eventually your creator won't be right next to you and then your base personality and stats have to take over to fill in the gaps in your orders. The Sims are able to impersonate the person the cloned that requires filling in tons of gaps and maintaining complex reactions to the environment in the same way the original would.

I think leaving a Sim with a lot of idle time could be potentially dangerous and an interesting plot hook.I didn't see this reply before but I thank you for both a more interesting and a far more reasonable set of issues than "what if the Sim instantly tries to avoid taking orders from the caster so that it can become an entity that no longer has to take orders from the caster, because that's oh so helpful to the caster."

I have a few quibbles, though.

1. I would imagine the most popular Sim target is the caster, unless you're casting the spell for information purposes or have a suitably powerful alternative option, so motives tend to stay aligned a bit better.
2. Learning new things is vague, true, but people don't use the word "learn" to talk about specifics of one's surroundings or the like. Learning implies some sort of knowledge that can be generalized. For instance, let's suppose the creature the Sim copies (the "base creature") couldn't differentiate types of trees. I would say that the Sim would definitely recognize the tree as a thing that exists, just as the base creature would; and if told it was a "spruce" it could even commit that name to short-term memory, but it wouldn't be able to put 2 and 2 together and identify other spruces.
3. I agree Sim is very powerful; it tends to be the extreme form of the fact that, in this edition, money still buys personal power... for casters. It's another reason why I'm uncomfortable as a GM being stingy with magical weapons and the like while simultaneously showering PCs with money, as is sometimes suggested as a "feature" of this edition. That said, IME casters tend to hoard their expensive investments until the "right moment" comes along.
4. Keeping a Sim on a short leash should be less difficult in downtime than it is when you want it to complete a task. It does have the INT/WIS/CHA of the base creature, but it clearly still doesn't have the same functional capacities as the base creature, and more importantly it still obeys orders such as "just stand there and don't do anything until my next order." The problem comes in when you give an evil Sim a vague order like "guard [names of the PCs] from potential harm." That might not work so well. Another reason why a Sim of the caster is potentially a better idea than a Sim of a demon.

[pwykersotz]

4. Keeping a Sim on a short leash should be less difficult in downtime than it is when you want it to complete a task. It does have the INT/WIS/CHA of the base creature, but it clearly still doesn't have the same functional capacities as the base creature, and more importantly it still obeys orders such as "just stand there and don't do anything until my next order." The problem comes in when you give an evil Sim a vague order like "guard [names of the PCs] from potential harm." That might not work so well. Another reason why a Sim of the caster is potentially a better idea than a Sim of a demon.

Keeping the Simulacrum on a short leash is probably the worst thing to do. I know that if the original me tried to be a jerk like that, I would plot retribution proportionate to the jerkiness. No, being kind is the best formula here. Remember the Evil Overlord List. "I will treat any creature I control through magic or technology with kindness and respect. Thus when it is inevitably freed from my control it will not immediately seek me for revenge."

[Segev]

To me, a simulacrum is not a real being. It's an illusion that has impressive substance and power drawn from the connection to its original, but it's in a lot of ways a philosophical zombie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie). The distinction between a true p-zombie and a simulacrum is that the simulacrum drops the act exactly as much as is required to serve the commands and will of its creator (where a p-zombie is by definition indistinguishable through pure behavior analysis from a real, thinking, conscious entity). The simulacrum is an artificial set of behaviors, with reasoning capability but no self-awareness. It imitates self-awareness exactly as much as it is acting like the original.

It's other imperfections lie in its inability to learn. While I would stress that it can remember incidents, and even accept commands to behave in specific ways in response to specific stimuli, it is only able to mimic understanding to the extent that the original had it at the point when it was created. It is capable of solving math problems or giving advice the way the original could have at the time of the spell's casting, but it can't learn new contexts the original didn't already know. While it could memorize rote behaviors for new kinds of math, it couldn't extrapolate on them because it can't learn what they mean. It could remember specific cultural traits of a new society it encountered, but it couldn't incorporate that into its decision-making without essentially leaning on algorithms of behavior modifications its master "programed" through specific stimulus-response commands.

In essence, it can't mature. It can't improve. It's a qualitative mimic of the being it resembles, but that's all it is. And it has no REAL self-preservation instinct. Any it exhibits is either mimicking that of its original, or is obedience to its master's orders that it protect itself. If its master orders it to self-destruct (directly or via suicidal missions), it will act on them and have no problem doing so. At most, it will act like it has a problem with it if it believes its master wants it to (possibly by virtue of mimicking its original's lack of desire to die)...but it won't stop it from running off to its doom if its master's commands require it. And it won't even complain unless it thinks it "should."

[Sigreid]

To me, a simulacrum is not a real being. It's an illusion that has impressive substance and power drawn from the connection to its original, but it's in a lot of ways a philosophical zombie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie). The distinction between a true p-zombie and a simulacrum is that the simulacrum drops the act exactly as much as is required to serve the commands and will of its creator (where a p-zombie is by definition indistinguishable through pure behavior analysis from a real, thinking, conscious entity). The simulacrum is an artificial set of behaviors, with reasoning capability but no self-awareness. It imitates self-awareness exactly as much as it is acting like the original.

It's other imperfections lie in its inability to learn. While I would stress that it can remember incidents, and even accept commands to behave in specific ways in response to specific stimuli, it is only able to mimic understanding to the extent that the original had it at the point when it was created. It is capable of solving math problems or giving advice the way the original could have at the time of the spell's casting, but it can't learn new contexts the original didn't already know. While it could memorize rote behaviors for new kinds of math, it couldn't extrapolate on them because it can't learn what they mean. It could remember specific cultural traits of a new society it encountered, but it couldn't incorporate that into its decision-making without essentially leaning on algorithms of behavior modifications its master "programed" through specific stimulus-response commands.

In essence, it can't mature. It can't improve. It's a qualitative mimic of the being it resembles, but that's all it is. And it has no REAL self-preservation instinct. Any it exhibits is either mimicking that of its original, or is obedience to its master's orders that it protect itself. If its master orders it to self-destruct (directly or via suicidal missions), it will act on them and have no problem doing so. At most, it will act like it has a problem with it if it believes its master wants it to (possibly by virtue of mimicking its original's lack of desire to die)...but it won't stop it from running off to its doom if its master's commands require it. And it won't even complain unless it thinks it "should."

You have much better words than I did earlier. For a fictional example, you could look at the paintings in Harry Potter. They have a lot of the knowledge and personality of the person they are a portrait of, but as described in the latest book they are a mere shadow of the subject and can be used to talk things and work them out, but should not be relied on for advice/understanding.

[pwykersotz]

Good stuff

While I am inclined to agree with this, doesn't the question in the thread assume that this isn't the case? I thought we were extrapolating based on the premise.

[Sigreid]

While I am inclined to agree with this, doesn't the question in the thread assume that this isn't the case? I thought we were extrapolating based on the premise.

The premise was really a question. Does a simulacra have any free will?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Keeping the Simulacrum on a short leash is probably the worst thing to do. I know that if the original me tried to be a jerk like that, I would plot retribution proportionate to the jerkiness. No, being kind is the best formula here. Remember the Evil Overlord List. "I will treat any creature I control through magic or technology with kindness and respect. Thus when it is inevitably freed from my control it will not immediately seek me for revenge."A simulacrum doesn't fall under things that are "inevitably freed from my control," and hence that part of the EO list, for precisely the same reason why it wouldn't be plotting revenge for being treated poorly. By its very nature, a Sim is friendly to its creator and acts in accordance with the creator's wishes.

[pwykersotz]

A simulacrum doesn't fall under things that are "inevitably freed from my control," and hence that part of the EO list, for precisely the same reason why it wouldn't be plotting revenge for being treated poorly. By its very nature, a Sim is friendly to its creator and acts in accordance with the creator's wishes.

Yes. And (continuing the extrapolation), I would be friendly and obedient too if I found out I was a spell copy of myself, not even requiring magical enforcement. But starting friendly doesn't mean staying friendly through abuse of power. If myself told me to stand still and do nothing for hours on end, I'd be annoyed. If myself told me to reshingle the roof by myself, I'd be frustrated. If myself told me to repaint the house and not rest until I was done, I'd be pretty cross. And while apparently compelled to nonetheless do what I'm told, my free cycles would be spent trying to figure out why myself was being such a jerk and what I could do about it. I would certainly not jump to murder, but I would try to either maximize my fun while not under direct orders, or else try to break the cycle of abuse.

Also, selecting that part of the quote misses the point entirely. The evil overlord list was meant to be a funny aside with a tangential connection.

[Segev]

While I am inclined to agree with this, doesn't the question in the thread assume that this isn't the case? I thought we were extrapolating based on the premise.

True, and I originally started my post by phrasing it as "Well, I'm essentially not a self-aware entity..." for that reason.

It's one of those things where it's hard to go with the premise because I think the premise is inherently flawed.

But, I'll give it a shot.


Ignoring the nature of the spell as written, and taking as given that I am a person with free will (insofar as my creator fails to constrain it, such that I can and will act like myself when not compelled otherwise), I, personally, am not horrified to learn I'm a copy of the original Segev. I might be a little frustrated by my limits compared to him, and disappointed that I cannot learn nor improve. But the only way I'd be bitter about it is if my creator made me do things that I - and the original Segev, given that his desires and personality are the template for mine - wouldn't want to do and wouldn't be persuaded were good things to have to do.

Assuming a perfect personality copy, I'm glad to be alive, and possibly grateful to my creator for giving me the chance. Though a little worried as to what purpose they have for me, unless I know that Segev-the-original was complicit in my creation (in which case I know that at least there is a given reason my creator wanted me that isn't something to which I object).

This does mean that, if Segev-the-original is my creator, I'm pretty comfortable with it. Though I'll be angry if he wants to sacrifice me. Assuming I am not surprised to learn I am a self-aware being, however, I'm pretty sure my original wouldn't do that, because he'd not want to sacrifice a self-aware person. At least not for anything he wouldn't, himself, be willing to die for. If I did find myself surprised to learn that I'm self-aware, I would inform my creator of this, knowing that he would believe me on the simple grounds that I wouldn't inform him of it if it weren't true.

[Dalebert]

While I am inclined to agree with this, doesn't the question in the thread assume that this isn't the case? I thought we were extrapolating based on the premise.

I'm trying not to assume anything. I'm curious how various DMs interpret this wide-open spell.

Example of robot executing commands to the letter but not necessarily in spirit. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4OaRssRG58) I coulddn't understand what it was saying at the end though.

[pwykersotz]

I'm trying not to assume anything. I'm curious how various DMs interpret this wide-open spell.

Example of robot executing commands to the letter but not necessarily in spirit. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4OaRssRG58) I coulddn't understand what it was saying at the end though.

Ah, then that's clear now then. :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

I cast Dunning-Kruger's Overconfident Simulacrum.

This also is quite a bit like being human ...

An important thing about that "going bad during downtime" is that whole "cannot heal itself" business. To wit:

If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 1000 gp per hit point it regains. The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly.

IIRC real-world humans recreate their bodies every 6 weeks or so. That is, you don't have any living cells older than 6 weeks - they are always dying and fresh ones take their place. When this process goes wrong you develop cancer. Now transferring real-world science of any sort to something created by a magic spell is of course fairly silly, but that's never stopped me before, so I'll just say that even in a D&D world minor injuries are routine. How often do you stub your toe? Slip on wet floor and fall? Hit your thumb with a hammer while driving a nail? Does this world have anything akin to cosmic rays passing through stone and earth and water until one in a billion hits one of your cells, destroying it?

People have been using the analogy of robots; how many stories feature the robot that has gotten a little wonky with the passage of too much time? Logan's Run, Star Trek 1, and Hitchhiker's Guide all come to mind.

I therefore posit that a simulacrum has a limited lifespan; longer if it is extraordinarily careful, but eventually the fantasy-world equivalent to cosmic rays wear down even the most prudent. "It does not die which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die" was written about Cthulhu and his ilk, not something a mere 15th level wizard can cast for a paltry 1,500 gp.

[Segev]

The beauty of the simulacrum spell is that the illusion it creates is fully capable of interpreting commands as well as the original could have at the time of creation. So it will follow orders to the spirit, insofar as the original could have.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Yes. And (continuing the extrapolation), I would be friendly and obedient too if I found out I was a spell copy of myself, not even requiring magical enforcement. But starting friendly doesn't mean staying friendly through abuse of power. If myself told me to stand still and do nothing for hours on end, I'd be annoyed. If myself told me to reshingle the roof by myself, I'd be frustrated. If myself told me to repaint the house and not rest until I was done, I'd be pretty cross. And while apparently compelled to nonetheless do what I'm told, my free cycles would be spent trying to figure out why myself was being such a jerk and what I could do about it. I would certainly not jump to murder, but I would try to either maximize my fun while not under direct orders, or else try to break the cycle of abuse.

Also, selecting that part of the quote misses the point entirely. The evil overlord list was meant to be a funny aside with a tangential connection.The spell creates an illusory copy that is friendly. There is nothing in the spell that suggests that friendliness might deteriorate. If it created a creature with its own agency - even a beast - then you couldn't guarantee its initial state would persist over time. But that's not what the spell does, hence why my analysis of the EO quote is central to my point.

This also is quite a bit like being human ...Good thing the Sim is, at best, a facsimile of humanity.

An important thing about that "going bad during downtime" is that whole "cannot heal itself" business. To wit: *snip*Good thing Sims don't have living cells to worry about. They're spell effects, made of magic and ice/snow. A GM is free to say it deteriorates over time, just like they're free to say a permanent Major Image might malfunction over time; but that's pure fiat territory, just like messing with HP totals as a pure function of time is fiat territory. To my mind HP represents resistance and avoidance of serious bodily harm.

People have been using the analogy of robots; how many stories feature the robot that has gotten a little wonky with the passage of too much time? Logan's Run, Star Trek 1, and Hitchhiker's Guide all come to mind.Honestly, wonky things happen to anyone with self awareness over a long span of time, machine or not. Good thing...

I therefore posit that a simulacrum has a limited lifespan; longer if it is extraordinarily careful, but eventually the fantasy-world equivalent to cosmic rays wear down even the most prudent. "It does not die which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die" was written about Cthulhu and his ilk, not something a mere 15th level wizard can cast for a paltry 1,500 gp.Except wizards already made permanent illusions two levels ago for no material cost; that this illusion provides more practical value and resembles a creature doesn't seem to encroach on "old ones" territory. And of course, deterioration is already built into the spell - any time it does take HP damage it's pretty much not getting it back on its own, and its magical power is obviously quite ephemeral. Barring being tasked with guarding a tomb or something, it's doubtful a Sim hangs around for much longer than the caster's own lifespan, if that.

[pwykersotz]

The spell creates an illusory copy that is friendly. There is nothing in the spell that suggests that friendliness might deteriorate. If it created a creature with its own agency - even a beast - then you couldn't guarantee its initial state would persist over time. But that's not what the spell does, hence why my analysis of the EO quote is central to my point.

There's also nothing in the spell to suggest that the friendliness sticks around. It's an assumption that we're both putting on the text. All we know is the condition at the time it is created. Everything past that is extrapolation.

And to be clear, I don't have a horse in this race. I think both interpretations work in game. However, in the context of this thread, I find the answer of "it just obeys" incredibly boring.

[Segev]

There's also nothing in the spell to suggest that the friendliness sticks around. It's an assumption that we're both putting on the text. All we know is the condition at the time it is created. Everything past that is extrapolation.

And to be clear, I don't have a horse in this race. I think both interpretations work in game. However, in the context of this thread, I find the answer of "it just obeys" incredibly boring.

While I see where you're coming from, this does strike me as the kind of weaseling that would also be used to say that a creature affected by charm person is only made friendly when the spell is cast, and that nothing makes hims stay that way for the whole duration. I think charm person is more strongly worded, but the same kind of weaseling would likely manage it. The notion that the simulacrum might betray the caster is nowhere hinted at. This makes it very much a twisting of the spell to add it in.

[Shining Wrath]

Another quote from the spell text seems to be needed.

The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature.
My italics.

Most inhabitants of the Prime Material eventually die of old age. Exceptions: undead and constructs, maybe dragons, and it depends on how you count fey.

There's no reason to believe a Simulacrum gets a pass on aging because it is both an illusion and a creature. Since they are explicitly difficult to heal - requires 1,000 GP and a laboratory for a single HP - a reasonable interpretation is that they are not immortal. The miscellaneous damage of being a normal living creature accumulates for them, while the bodies of creature that are not also an illusion have the - dare I say miraculous? - ability to repair themselves. A stubbed toe for a wizard creates a bruise that eventually is absorbed by the body. A stubbed toe for the simulacrum of that same wizard remain damaged unless the wizard repairs it in the lab.

In case it comes up, a number of injuries of less than 1 HP can add up to more than 1 HP of damage; that's how swarms work.

[pwykersotz]

While I see where you're coming from, this does strike me as the kind of weaseling that would also be used to say that a creature affected by charm person is only made friendly when the spell is cast, and that nothing makes hims stay that way for the whole duration. I think charm person is more strongly worded, but the same kind of weaseling would likely manage it. The notion that the simulacrum might betray the caster is nowhere hinted at. This makes it very much a twisting of the spell to add it in.

There's a difference in duration which makes it severely different in application. If the construct was temporary, I'd totally agree that the friendliness should persist. But once you get into permanent control, while I wouldn't guarantee a betrayal by any means, I would argue that there should necessarily be a certain amount of...the words escape me, maybe drift? As has been pointed out above, your simulacrum may very well pull a Riker, becoming different over time.

[Dalebert]

It says the sim is like the creature in all ways except for a couple of exceptions. e.g. half hp, can't recover spells, etc. I see no reason why it wouldn't age normally. Where is any notion that they might be potentially immortal coming from? I suppose if you made a sim of a creature that was somehow already immortal like a god but otherwise, I'm not seeing it.

By the way, while it's probably intended that the sim can't recover hp except via the laboratory as noted, it's not RAW. The spell doesn't say it can't recover hp other ways. Again, I think they got a little sloppy here and it's not intended, but RAW, this is just an extra way the sim can heal as opposed to the only way. By RAW, a troll would still regenerate and any sim would heal from resting.

[Shining Wrath]

It says the sim is like the creature in all ways except for a couple of exceptions. e.g. half hp, can't recover spells, etc. I see no reason why it wouldn't age normally. Where is any notion that they might be potentially immortal coming from? I suppose if you made a sim of a creature that was somehow already immortal like a god but otherwise, I'm not seeing it.

By the way, while it's probably intended that the sim can't recover hp except via the laboratory as noted, it's not RAW. The spell doesn't say it can't recover hp other ways. Again, I think they got a little sloppy here and it's not intended, but RAW, this is just an extra way the sim can heal as opposed to the only way. By RAW, a troll would still regenerate and any sim would heal from resting.

I must concede that is possible per RAW; the "otherwise affected as a normal creature" could be read to mean that Cure Wounds works just fine and a good night's sleep restores all lost HP. Once again, it's up to the DM to decide how powerful a high-level spell actually is, almost as though they didn't spend as much time playtesting the higher levels.