astral projection questions

[Braininthejar2]

1 What happens if someone using astral projection is petrified?

2 How about when he walks into an anti-magic field?

3 what happens with the above if there are several travellers and its the caster that is affected?

[Name1]

1. Then the body you currently inhabit is petrified. Since this turns you mindless, I suspect you wouldn't be able to dismiss the spell ad be stuck as a statue the same way you'd normally be.

2. Since Astral Projection is a permanent spell effect, I would assume you "wink out" until the Antimagic Field is lifted.

3. If the caster is affected, only he is affected and suffers the effects. The other travelers cannot dismiss the spell effect though, since they are not the original casters.

[Darrin]

1 What happens if someone using astral projection is petrified?


The spell ends only under certain specified criteria: 1) spellcaster ends it, 2) dispel magic cast on the physical/astral body, 3) breaking the silver cord, or 4) destruction of your original physical body. Since petrification isn't listed as one of those conditions, the spell effect continues.

Petrification is a very oddball condition. The petrified creature no longer counts as either alive or dead. They have not died, but are no longer considered a creature. However, there's nothing in the rules to prevent a silver chord from being attached to an object, so I'd say the spell effect continues.



2 How about when he walks into an anti-magic field?


AMF covers two types of creatures: summoned and natural creatures. Astral projection isn't a conjuration or summoning spell, so the bodies it creates can't be treated as summoned creatures. That leaves "natural creatures", constructs imbued with magic, and elementals/undead/outsiders. I'd say bodies created by astral projection fall somewhere in one of those categories, so the AMF itself doesn't affect them, but any ongoing spell effects and access to their spells/SLAs/Supernatural abilities would be suppressed. I can't find anything specific on whether the silver cord is magical or needs magic to function, so I'm inclined to say it continues to function as normal even in an AMF field.



3 what happens with the above if there are several travellers and its the caster that is affected?

If the caster is petrified, the spell still functions and his companions can continue to act as normal, but they lose the option of the spellcaster ending the spell until they can reverse the petrification condition. If it's an AMF, then I don't see that it has much of an effect, other than preventing spells/SLAs/Supernatural abilities from being used.

[Braininthejar2]

Now a more oddball question.

If you cast astral projection while physically on the astral plane, and use it to project yourself to the material plane... will you age or not?

[Name1]

Now a more oddball question.

If you cast astral projection while physically on the astral plane, and use it to project yourself to the material plane... will you age or not?

You will age. Well, the projected body will, at least. Your original body stays as it is as long as it's on a timeless plane.

[Duke of Urrel]

Since Astral Projection is a permanent spell effect, I would assume you "wink out" until the Antimagic Field is lifted.


The spell ends only under certain specified criteria: 1) spellcaster ends it, 2) dispel magic cast on the physical/astral body, 3) breaking the silver cord, or 4) destruction of your original physical body.

[…]

AMF covers two types of creatures: summoned and natural creatures. Astral projection isn't a conjuration or summoning spell, so the bodies it creates can't be treated as summoned creatures. That leaves "natural creatures", constructs imbued with magic, and elementals/undead/outsiders. I'd say bodies created by astral projection fall somewhere in one of those categories, so the AMF itself doesn't affect them, but any ongoing spell effects and access to their spells/SLAs/Supernatural abilities would be suppressed. I can't find anything specific on whether the silver cord is magical or needs magic to function, so I'm inclined to say it continues to function as normal even in an AMF field.

I am intrigued by this conflict, because if Darrin is right, then the Astral Projection spell is a rare thing, indeed: a spell that can be dispelled, but cannot be suppressed inside an Antimagic Field.

My first impulse was to side with Name1 and to say that an Antimagic Field should cause an astral body or a duplicate body on an alternate plane to wink out temporarily. Why? Because by default, every spell with a duration is suppressed inside an Antimagic Field, following this general rule (from the description of the Antimagic Field spell):


An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. Bold text shows my own emphasis.

If the Astral Projection spell is a spell with a duration, then it should be suppressed inside an Antimagic Field unless some specific rule states otherwise, right? So as I say, I originally sided with Name1.

However, I've done some more thinking, and now I'm leaning toward Darrin. Here's why.

I'm not sure that the Astral Projection spell really is a "permanent" spell. The spell's statistics block says "See text," and the text says:


You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you). Again, the bold text shows my own emphasis.

In the ordinary sense of the English word "permanent," the Astral Projection spell is permanent. However, in the sense of D&D, "Permanent" in a spell's statistics block means dispellable and suppressible, because any spell with a duration is dispellable and suppressible unless the spell's description states otherwise. This is why I assume that the Magic Jar spell is suppressible as well as dispellable, even though it is, like the Astral Projection spell, a Necromancy spell and not a Conjuration spell.

So does the Astral Projection spell have a duration, or is it the effect of instantaneous magic? I don't know the answer to this.

However, I am tempted to lean toward the oddball theory that the effect of the Astral Projection spell, at least outside the material body that is its original target, is instantaneous.

After all, the text above includes the phrase "terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form." Perhaps this is a specific rule, included to negate the general rule that spells with an instantaneous duration cannot be dispelled.

And perhaps the effect of the Astral Projection spell is maintained not by ongoing magic, but by the nature of the Astral Plane itself. After all, the silver cord is partly visible only on the Astral Plane and seems to belong to it. Moreover, the Astral Plane is timeless. So if you create an "instantaneous" effect on the Astral Plane, maybe it lasts forever until it is destroyed, just as a creature lives forever until it is killed.

I'm still not sure whether I agree with my own reasoning here. The Astral Projection spell is weird, that's for sure. But should it really be as weird as I am now tempted to imagine it?

EDIT: And now I'm going to argue against myself for a moment. I'm bothered by that material body that the Astral Projection spell leaves behind. The spell probably must have a duration, at least on the Material Plane, in order to keep a body in suspended animation. But does this mean that the Astral Projection spell is suppressed if the abandoned material body is brought inside an Antimagic Field? And what does this do? Does it kill the material body? Does it call the projected soul back into the body? And if it does call the projected soul back, does it do so temporarily or permanently?

Sorry about this, BrainintheJar2. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I am intrigued, I tell you – nay, flummoxed! And I see no simple answers here.

[Darrin]

My first impulse was to side with Name1 and to say that an Antimagic Field should cause an astral body or a duplicate body on an alternate plane to wink out temporarily. Why? Because by default, every spell with a duration is suppressed inside an Antimagic Field, following this general rule (from the description of the Antimagic Field spell):


I wavered between the AMF suppressing or ignoring the AP. But when I looked at suppressing, I just didn't see any indication of what would happen to AP, or more importantly, the spellcaster's consciousness. AMF explicitly says it doesn't dispel, so if the astral body walks into an AMF and gets suppressed... this is not a condition that causes the spellcaster to return to his original body, so... where... exactly... is... his... consciousness? He just doesn't exist anywhere, he can't end the spell voluntarily, and there's nothing to dispel... if the AMF is permanent, then there's no way he can get back to his original body unless some kind soul severs the silver cord or kills his original body.

I see some wiggle room where you could argue that AMF could be one of the things that could terminate the AP "by outside means", but I don't see any explicit RAW evidence of that.

[Name1]

I wavered between the AMF suppressing or ignoring the AP. But when I looked at suppressing, I just didn't see any indication of what would happen to AP, or more importantly, the spellcaster's consciousness. AMF explicitly says it doesn't dispel, so if the astral body walks into an AMF and gets suppressed... this is not a condition that causes the spellcaster to return to his original body, so... where... exactly... is... his... consciousness? He just doesn't exist anywhere, he can't end the spell voluntarily, and there's nothing to dispel... if the AMF is permanent, then there's no way he can get back to his original body unless some kind soul severs the silver cord or kills his original body..

I know what you mean, I thought about that too... I sorta figured that he would be supressed similar to a summoned creature, his consciousness vanishing from existence like a summoned creatures body (and consciousness) would. My reasoning for this is, again, the fact that it's a spell, which AMF suppresses.

The reason why I don't feel like the AMF would ignore AP (and the other way around), is this:
The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).

A suppressed spell still... "lasts". As in, it's still active and hasn't ended in any way, shape or form. I mean, if suppressed spells didn't still exist inside an AMF, then why would their durations outside the AMF decrease?
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

There is also the fact that AP doesn't specifically call out it's AMF immunity the same way other AMF immue spells do...
Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions).

The situation is... weird, to say the least, but I just feel like the spellcaster should not walk into an AMF while using AP if he can prevent it.

[Deophaun]

AMF explicitly says it doesn't dispel, so if the astral body walks into an AMF and gets suppressed... this is not a condition that causes the spellcaster to return to his original body, so... where... exactly... is... his... consciousness? He just doesn't exist anywhere, he can't end the spell voluntarily, and there's nothing to dispel... if the AMF is permanent, then there's no way he can get back to his original body unless some kind soul severs the silver cord or kills his original body.
Somewhere, in some plane of existence, an AMF is disjunctioned and a hundred hapless demi-liches--trapped over the millennia--pop back into existence.

[Braininthejar2]

It gets even weirder if the caster himself casts AMF :smallbiggrin:

[Duelpersonality]

Petrification is a very oddball condition. The petrified creature no longer counts as either alive or dead. They have not died, but are no longer considered a creature. However, there's nothing in the rules to prevent a silver chord from being attached to an object, so I'd say the spell effect continues.

Oddly enough, I ran a campaign that revolved around this very interpretation. The villain had been trapped on the astral for centuries trying to find a way to restore himself to life, and had corrupted agents to attempt to "resurrect" him (very low magic campaign with warlocks as the only casters, and heavily restricted in game, similar to mages in Dragon Age).