The Sapphire Guard- how do RPG?

[Lacuna Caster]

This is a notion that's been rattling around in my head for a while, so I thought I'd unburden myself. I really like the idea of an RP campaign specifically set in and around Azure City (you know, the place? From the comic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_of_the_Stick#Geography)? In the sidebar?) some time prior to being scrubbed off the maps. The problem is... I'm not certain I'm qualified to go about tinkering in the OOTS universe, specifically. For comparison, here's what I think would be intriguing to flesh out:

* The large-scale social and political structure of Azure City and it's hinterlands plus real-world analogues
* The challenges and ambiguities of handling paladin conduct within that milieu of intrigue and corruption
* Various cast members (particularly Miko, sue me)
* Obsessing over inventory logistics and training regimen to negate superior force

What the larger comic is about, and one might, by extension, presume the author and/or many fans like:

* Oscillation between self-conscious debate and absurdist 4th-wall parody
* Individual characters' intimate bonds and enmities, particularly biological and surrogate family
* Soap opera fueled by narrative contrivance, with or without lampshading
* The main Snarl-related plot-thread, which we'll get to any day now

Most of which is not a bad thing per se, and there's a good deal of overlap, but I'm worried that I'd gravitate by nature away from what players might be expecting. What I was going to suggest would be taking the rules for Mouse Guard (http://www.mouseguard.net/book/role-playing-game-boxed-set/) (or maybe Realm Guard (https://www.burningwheel.com/forum/showthread.php?9572-Realm-Guard-Rangers-of-the-North-(v1-6)), the 4th-age-middle-earth-rangers conversion), drop in Azure City as the base of operations and refluff Nature as Honour/Humanity. You'd need to work out some additional rules for divine spellcasting and state-of-grace, but I think the core mechanics- creating rounded knight-errant PCs with family, friends and enemies, torn between duty, love and survival- is a pretty solid foundation. Unfortunately, the game (and myself) doesn't especially lend itself toward impromptu comedy (and FWIW, any ancestral ties to D&D are pretty faint.)

So- any other suggestions? Can you think of tabletop RPGs that especially cultivate snarky irreverence, and would those meld particularly well with the epic-quest-going-on-ness?

.

[VoxRationis]

Do you have a particular aversion to D&D 3.5? Because the setting you're using was literally based around the premise of a universe where everything in that system is physical law. It seems fairly reasonable as a default system to use.

[Lacuna Caster]

Do you have a particular aversion to D&D 3.5? Because the setting you're using was literally based around the premise of a universe where everything in that system is physical law. It seems fairly reasonable as a default system to use.
I understand that taking digs at the rule-set accounts for much of the appeal, particularly in the early strips, but I also remember the author being... unhappy... if you suggest the OOTS have suboptimal class builds or combat tactics. (And something about how he'd abandon D&D as a premise if he could.) So... I don't know. I do appreciate a lot of the strip's humour, but I think that vein has been mined.

EDIT: I also don't know if 3E's alignment system is robust enough to handle political intrigue + paladin code without the risk of some kind of explosion, which is an area I'd quite like to explore. (Shojo, of course, is right at the crux of this.)

[JeenLeen]

D&D 5e's mechanics options are simplified, and its alignment is less restrictive with respect to paladins. 5e Paladins (of level 3+) have a code, but not an alignment restriction (though it's hard to imagine a CE Paladin of Devotion.) So you could keep D&D and its 4th-wall jokes/exploits if you want.

I like the idea of how each PC could start as an unnamed guard, revealing their name or parts of it to survive what would otherwise be sudden death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0472.html). Could be fun for a 'mission 0' introduction to the plot of your campaign.

Not to start a edition war, but wanted to note the option.
As for other systems that could work... well, none come to mind to me, though I haven't played those you mentioned or some like GURPS or FATE which I hear are good for a lot of different settings.

[Lacuna Caster]

I haven't actually played the OOTS adventure game (partly thanks to mixed reviews (https://www.amazon.com/Order-Stick-Adventure-Game-Dungeon/dp/0966347684),) but I was thinking it might be possible to take a similar approach. i.e, boil down the 'feel' of their stories without being beholden to specific mechanics.


I like the idea of how each PC could start as an unnamed guard, revealing their name or parts of it to survive what would otherwise be sudden death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0472.html). Could be fun for a 'mission 0' introduction to the plot of your campaign.
Heh. You could even work it in as part of character generation, if you had terminal lifepaths like Traveller...

I think Mouse Guard is a close fit in most respects, aside from the humour, but I'll try to take a closer peek at 5E.

[Grod_The_Giant]

D&D 5e's mechanics options are simplified, and its alignment is less restrictive with respect to paladins. 5e Paladins (of level 3+) have a code, but not an alignment restriction (though it's hard to imagine a CE Paladin of Devotion.) So you could keep D&D and its 4th-wall jokes/exploits if you want.
I'm inclined to agree here. The comic may have moved away from rules jokes, but the underlying D&D structure remains, and informs a lot of the setting and character actions. 5th edition maintains that feel while sidestepping a lot of 3.5's problems with balance and complexity. It also leaves plenty of space to plug in an improved social system of your choice, which sounds like it would be important.

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, I'm reading through the 5E rules atm, stroking my chin and eyes narrowed. Skimming through the PHB, I appreciate that there seems to be a little more emphasis on character motives (ideals, flaws, bonds and backgrounds, inspiration boni), and I could possibly wrap my head around the extensive spell listings and grin and bear it on the subject of Hit Points and class/level mechanics. The art, of course, is lavish and beautiful.

However... looking under Play Style, the advice given on non-dungeon-crawl-centric campaigns is still largely a throwing up of hands with a 'just wing it guys', which I'm pretty sure I saw back in 3E. I don't think the diplomacy rules have budged much either. Did I miss the right passage in the DMG, or are there any auxiliary supplements or optional subsystems you'd recommend here?

(Oddly enough, I also, e.g, wouldn't want Miko as a paladin of vengeance. The character is intriguing because, for a long while, she was cunning enough to grok (http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html) that All Warfare Is Based On Deception while still maintaining the letter of her oaths. If said oaths not only permit, but encourage carving a swathe through hapless foes, then there's no tension.)


Would you have any examples for character-actions or setting-locations you feel were particularly influenced by D&D conventions, once the rule-specifics are discounted?

[Lacuna Caster]

The comic may have moved away from rules jokes, but the underlying D&D structure remains, and informs a lot of the setting and character actions.
Well, I know there's always the obvious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) examples (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html). (To be honest, I have mixed feelings about this- while they might be intended just for laughs, it becomes really obvious (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nuke%20the%20fridge) that whether characters live or die has almost nothing to do with assumable risk and everything to do with how charitable the GM *cough* author is feeling.)

Speaking of anvilicious- Toon Munchkin (http://www.warehouse23.com/products/SJG37-7611) is a thing now, apparently. Huh. Might not be such a stretch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html).


Assorted system comments/speculation below:
Back to The 5E: Much product placement, such merchandising, very plugging, wow. However, I have combed over the DM's workshop and campaign-building sections again.

It's nice that there are optional Honor (and Sanity) stats, plus Renown/Piety with respect to particular Gods or factions, which could come in useful if the guidelines were strengthened a bit and tied into caster levels, or something. (The simulationist in me is itching for 'slow natural healing' and 'massive damage' options, etc., but I'm not sure that particularly emulates the comic's general tone or the shining knights trope. Plus, y'know, Hit Points.) There's also a brief mention of intrigue/mystery campaigns and some tips on Wuxia conversion. D'aww.

The rules for hero points, plot points and inspiration all seem to be gesturing at something similar to the Artha cycle in BW, so it might be possible to mung those usefully together. There's a refreshing lack of direct illusionist instructions and much of the text could reasonably be interpreted as leaning toward 'story now' procedure, though the dice-rolling guidelines still make a case for fudging outcomes. However, if plot isn't intended as a primary prep element, there still isn't quite as much advice on scene framing, dialog or politics as I'd like.

There are some decent procedures for setting-building and PC integration, much of which is already done, at least in outline. So that's nice.


On Board Gaming: I'm not as familiar with the range of designs here as I'd like, but maybe something similar to Arabian Nights (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/34119/tales-arabian-nights) could work? The core rules could be kept fairly minimal, with all the emergent complexity (and parody) handled with cards and encounter text. That's a lotta writin' though.


On Mouse Guard: My thinking so far is you might replace Nature with a Faith attribute, bumped up by upholding sacred vows and oaths, and pair that against a Stress metre, bumped up by background trauma, frustrated goals, severe injury or lack of proper... recreational outlets (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Two_Eyes_in_the_Dark).

On a related note: Part of me wants to wait until How The Paladin Got His Scar is released, then pick over the panels for setting ideas (while another part dreads (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Snips,_Snails,_and_Dragon_Tales#The_Tragedy_of_Gre enhilt.2C_Prince_of_Denmark_.E2.80.93_Roy.27s_stor y) eye-rolling flanderization of, uh, certain parties.) Time will tell, I guess.

[Lacuna Caster]

Hmm. I was going to round this out by attempting some kind of forensic reconstruction of Azure City's politics from strip info, but this gets tangled up in enough joke material that I'm not sure the data is meaningful. (Do low-cut outfits at wild parties signify some kind of anti-conservative generational culture war, or is this just 21st-century sensibilities extruding themselves as 4th-wall artifacts?) I'd like to know what Shojo got up to a ruler, specifically, but it's hard to read.

So... for lolz, I instead decided to write up some of the current azurites as PCs for mouse guard, plus or minus some home-brewed skills/content, some random additions, and some blanks. I imagine some corrections would be in order after the kickstarter .pdfs (particularly NPC contacts.)


Hinjo
Goal: ? (specified per mission)
Belief: My role as heir carries responsibilities.
Instinct: Always look for a peaceful solution.
Traits: Relaxed, Open, Tolerant, Naive, Rugged
Faith 3, Stress 1

Rank: Knight Captain
Weapon: Iron Katana
Mount: Wolf (Argent)
Resources 4, Circles 4, Health 4, Will 3

Fighting 4
Persuade 3
History 3
Administration 1
Smithing 3
City-Wise 2
Magic-Wise 2



Miko
Goal: ? (usually something about smiting abominations)
Belief: The Gods chose me for a great purpose.
Instinct: Never compromise or hesitate.
Traits: Resourceful, Imperious, Lonely, Repressed, Beautiful
Faith 5, Stress 4

Rank: Guard Captain
Weapon: Katana & Wakizashi
Mount: Horse (Windstriker)
Resources 4, Circles 1, Health 4, Will 4

Fighting 6
Evasion 4
Tactics 3
Intimidate 4
Deceiver 1
Meditation 3
Scouting 2
Cooking 1
Guard-Wise 2



O-Chul
Goal: ? (usually something about duty)
Belief: Nothing is beyond endurance.
Instinct: Never shy from an ugly truth.
Traits: Resilient, Stoic, Solitary, Wise, Scarred
Faith 4, Stress 2

Rank: Knight Captain
Weapon: Heavy Katana
Mount: Boar (?)
Resources 3, Circles 2, Health 5, Will 4

Fighting 4
Intimidate 2
Persuade 4
Tactics 3
Building 2
Meditation 1
Weapons-Wise 3
Goblin-Wise 2
Army-Wise 3



Shojo
Goal: Protect the city and it's people. (doesn't leave.)
Belief: A clean end justifies dirty methods.
Instinct: Never show my hand too soon.
Traits: Cheerful, Scheming, Eccentric, Paternal, Tall
Faith 0, Stress 2

Rank: Guard Commander
Weapon: None
Mount: None (faithless)
Resources 8, Circles 6, Health 2, Will 6

History 4
Tactics 4
Administration 5
Intimidate 3
Persuade 6
Deceiver 6
Evasion 1
Music 2
Guard-Wise 3
Plot-Wise 4
City-Wise 5
Cat-Wise 2


EDIT: Most of the basic rules are here (https://www.burningwheel.com/wiki/images/MGFillableSheet.pdf) and here (http://files.meetup.com/10692742/Mouse%20Guard%20Cheat%20Sheets.pdf), by the way.

I will say that the 'faking senility' bit probably needs to be jettisoned. You can't be a rational actor articulating logical proposals using full well-formed sentences and give the lasting impression of madness, and in the event that you did, they'd appoint a viceroy and/or start quietly ignoring what you say. I'd prefer to focus on the broader idea of Shojo being an elderly Tyrion Lannister who keeps the city under his thumb through a careful blend of manipulation, power-brokering, and occasional underhanded coercion. That should be grist enough.

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, if there aren't any further suggestions, I think I'll set this aside for a while. I've got a couple of other projects to pursue for the time being, but I'll close up with a rough sketch of the remaining pieces.


Structure and Activity Cycle

Knights (Samurai?) and Clerics are the major subdivisions of the guard, along with various minor auxilary staff, such as ordinary soldiers, porters and informants. Knights are the first choice for missions to billy-club monsters, deliver messages, reinforce allies or deliver critical supplies. (Clerics are relatively lacking in combat skills, but their vows are more flexible when it comes to undercover work, and they can 'hear confessions' from criminal contacts.)

Standard Mouse Guard rules- you shift between a GM's turn and player's turn in introducing tasks to attempt or full conflict scenes. Players can use metagame currency to add new scenes or attempt faster recovery. There's also an expectation that Guards will return home after a mission or two (something similar to the Downtime rules.)

Point: It's quite possible (even expected) that Beliefs and Instincts will change over time, based on accumulated experiences. The player decides how, but the GM can veto when.

Vows and Divine Faith

All members of the Guard take a set of core Vows that cover the standard obligations of the organisation- Soon's oath about the Gates, keep your word, follow orders, defend the innocent, allow surrender, etc. Guards may also choose one or more secondary Vows that emphasise different aspects of the code (charity, temperance, humility, courtesy, etc.)

Upholding a Vow when it entails cost, risk or complication lets you count a pass/fail for Faith (which advances like a skill.) So the more Vows you have, the more opportunities to prove Faith. However, breaking a Vow requires a test of Faith, with an obstacle depending on the egregiousness of the violation- if the test is failed, Faith is taxed by the margin of failure.

Divine magic is used by testing Faith against varying obstacles, depending on the type of spell. (e.g, casting Light might be Ob 1, whereas True Resurrection might be Ob 8+, plus a resources test and dialogue scene to persuade the soul to return.) In the event that a test is failed, you can spend a Persona point to roll maximum success.

Stress and Breakdown

Stress can be accumulated if a major Goal becomes impossible to attain, due to severe physical or mental duress (including after a conflict), or extended periods of boredom or confinement. It can be relieved through revenge, pleasurable company, successful crafting, exercise or meditation, attaining a major Goal, and/or various forms of vice.

Stress has a couple of effects: It can be used to provide a bonus to Attack actions (combat or otherwise), but imposes a penalty to most mental skills- particularly divination and perception. If it maxes out, some form of insanity might apply.

Several Vows (such as temperance and fidelity) make stress relief harder to obtain. (Guess who took them all?)

Possible rule: Temptation. Once per session, the GM can pick a particular Guard and have them test Faith vs. Stress. If they fail, they are compelled to take some action related to a Belief, Instinct or Goal, regardless of inhibitions?



(EDIT: This might even work for some of the Order, depending on how you interpret Roy's blood oath, Haley's aphasia or the leadup to V's rambunctious soul-splice antics. Food for thought.)

[JeenLeen]

However... looking under Play Style, the advice given on non-dungeon-crawl-centric campaigns is still largely a throwing up of hands with a 'just wing it guys', which I'm pretty sure I saw back in 3E. I don't think the diplomacy rules have budged much either. Did I miss the right passage in the DMG, or are there any auxiliary supplements or optional subsystems you'd recommend here?


The skills section in the PHB is lacking, but I think Diplomacy isn't as bad in 5e as 3.5.

The difficulty would depend on whether the DM decides persuading such a thing is Easy (DC 5 or 10, I forget) to Almost Impossible (DC 30?). If you played 3.5, this probably sounds terribly easy to make, but with how skills work in 5e, it's harder to make a 'diplomancer'.

Max Persuasion modifier at level 1 would be something like 18 Charisma for +4, Expertise and Proficiency for Persuasion (+2 * 2), and... maybe you can get a +1 or +2 from something else like a spell buffing it.
It's be easy to make a Half-Elf Rogue like that.
That's a +8-10 at level 1. When you reach level 5, that'd go up by 2 due to the Expertise and Proficiency bonus going up.

At level 20 with 20 (the max) Charisma, you'd have +12 from Expertise/Proficiency and +5 from Charisma, for +17. Let's say +20 due to some magic items if you really specialize.

So you still have to roll a 10 to make an 'almost impossible' roll, when you are essentially demi-god powerful. That seems fair and reasonable.

***caveat: I may have forgotten some possible +1s you can add on. And it's stronger if you can get advantage with Charisma checks, but that adds about +3 effectively.

Again, not saying that skills and non-combat are great in 5e, but I think it's better (assuming a fair DM, since setting the difficulties are pretty much DM fiat.)

[Lacuna Caster]

I appreciate the clarification. Big dialogue scenes are a sufficiently important recurring feature of OOTS that I think mechanical support in this area would be quite useful (and I could probably adapt some rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) on determining check DCs.)


On a related note, I trawled up a couple of interesting tidbits from an author interview (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411301-Interview-Questions-For-Rich)- the guard as a secret society, teleports and resurrections as pains in the ass, totally baffled by fanfiction, deliberately paper-thin setting- so I think it would be fair to, e.g, edit down D&D's core spell listings. And maybe just 'invent' bits and pieces of the world as the PCs venture there?

Actually, going back to comedy in Mouse Guard-

The 4th Wall/Setting Drift: Whenever you use a Wise to establish fictional content, you may borrow from 21st century pop culture examples.

Hammerspace/Bag of Holding: Use a Resources test and Fate point to acquire an item you could not possibly have been carrying all this time.

Cartoon Physics/Hit Points: If you are not already Injured, spend a Persona point to gain Injury and describe your incredible escape from death (after a Twist or Fight scene.)

I'm conflicted about this, though. There's something of a tonal dissonance between the comic's various implied-to-be-harmless anvils-and-dynamite escapades and the grim tragedy of ensuing plot-segments (which are often, in themselves, quite emotionally affecting). It's something like a Chuck Jones cartoon where the coyote kills roadrunner and dies in a factory fire. There's something uniquely cruel about that.

[Lacuna Caster]

Since the names got mentioned recently, a few remarks on other systems: Paranoia was mentioned as great for stabby kafkaesque comedy, but it works specifically because death ain't final (much as with Toon.) I'm sure there are bits and pieces one could borrow from Pendragon, but I don't know much about the system. And Dungeon World covers the story-now-D&D-lite demographic, but there's a pretty heavy implication of 'one class per player', both in motives and abilities, which might be a little narrow.

Which reminds me- I've just realised there's a significant gap in the MG mechanics. Without any explicit tracking of evilness, 'detect', 'smite', 'protection from' etc. won't work sans heavy adjustment. I'd be tempted to call that a feature, but... TBH the use/abuse/neglect of such abilities is pretty ingrained in the comic.

However... given some events in Redcloak's backstory, it can be suggested that the Guard doesn't really operate off objective cosmic standards of malice and benevolence (whatever those might be.) Instead, 'evil' is mechanically definable as 'what the 12 Gods disapprove of'. And their judgement on the subject need not necessarily be infallible, just a client-patron relationship.


As a thought exercise, I actually tried statting up the basics for these chumps (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TheOrderOfTheStickTheOrderOfTheStick), around the time the party formed (though I'm not sure how Faith would be interpreted, and Resources/Circles aren't really intended for the adventuring lifestyle, so, eh. Don't know how relevant, but an interesting observation is that the OOTS are pretty much primed to explode from internal disagreements without a lot of mutual bonding...)


Stress scale:
0 - not a care in the world
1 - a few loose ends to tie up, but nothing too worrisome
2 - you're juggling competing priorities, but you can handle it
3 - some serious problems are weighing you down
4 - intrusive fears and grudges plague your waking moments
5 - you just want to scream
6 - the breaking point...

Elan
Goal: Find someone to take me in.
Belief: Anything can lead to adventure!
Instinct: Always speak my mind.
Traits: Gentle, Hopeful, Dramatic, Stupid, Striking
Faith 3, Stress 3
Resources 1, Circles 2, Body 3, Will 2

Haley
Goal: Get enough gold to ransom Ian.
Belief: I don't deserve a family.
Instinct: Always put on a smile.
Traits: Persuasive, Thrifty, Caving, Amoral, Pretty
Faith 1, Stress 4
Resources 2, Circles 3, Body 3, Will 4

Vaarsuvius
Goal: Make a name for myself.
Belief: The arcane arts hold the key to ultimate power.
Instinct: If threatened, blast first, ask questions later.
Traits: Verbose, Pompous, Studious, Loyal, Elf
Faith 2, Stress 1
Resources 2, Circles 2, Body 1, Will 5

Roy
Goal: Fulfill Eugene's blood oath and destroy Xykon.
Belief: I need to be in charge of the situation.
Instinct: Always keep a straight face.
Traits: Snide, Pragmatic, Patient, Protective, Strong
Faith 2, Stress 2
Resources 2, Circles 3, Body 4, Will 4

Durkon
Goal: Wait for word to return home.
Belief: My foremost duty is to Thor.
Instinct: Always stay away from trees.
Traits: Dependable, Polite, Traditional, Superstitious, Dwarf
Faith 6, Stress 3
Resources 2, Circles 1, Body 4, Will 4

Belkar
Goal: Get a job outta town before I'm arrested.
Belief: No-one crosses me and lives.
Instinct: Always kick 'em when they're down.
Traits: Reckless, Destructive, Amusing, Hedonist, Halfling
Faith 0, Stress 0
Resources 1, Circles 1, Body 5, Will 1
Speaking of explosions- I was gonna say something more about Miko's hypothetical background and development, but absolutely every possible angle has been covered here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?343325-Was-Miko-treated-unfairly-by-the-narrative). Ugh. So I'll just say she's initially Jirel of Joiry (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/JirelOfJoiry) multiplied by Captain Bligh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bligh#Possible_causes_of_the_mutiny) with a side of Dr House (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCANzOgXkHo). What's not to like?

[Kish]

I understand that taking digs at the rule-set accounts for much of the appeal, particularly in the early strips, but I also remember the author being... unhappy... if you suggest the OOTS have suboptimal class builds or combat tactics.
It's more a matter of being unhappy when people post something that amounts to, "This isn't optimized! That makes it bad!" But I'm getting the impression that the distinction is lost on you, so, good luck with whatever system you decide to use.

[Lacuna Caster]

It's more a matter of being unhappy when people post something that amounts to, "This isn't optimized! That makes it bad!" But I'm getting the impression that the distinction is lost on you, so, good luck with whatever system you decide to use.
Oh, hey Kish! Really, it's more of a comment on how the specifics of D&D mechanics apparently weren't particularly syncing up with the type of story he had in mind. (True Resurrection and Teleport were more explicit examples of 'this doesn't help with drama'.)

I don't think I'll actually be running a game for the near future- just jotting down notes to return to at a later date. But thanks for dropping in.

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay, one more thing, since I can never resist a chance to plug Lindsay Ellis, and her analysis is a pretty good analogue to my sentiments here: Hercules, Disney's Beautiful Hot Mess: a Video Essay (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KznZcK7ksf4)

"...And to those of you who look down on me and people like me, who just tried for so long to do this Hercules dissection thing, to you I say- there are dozens of us! DOZENS!"