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Wiz828
2007-07-09, 02:48 PM
Situation is as follows: I have a bet going with my DM about wether a single 10th Level Character is able to fight a single CR 10 Monster. So we agreed he would secretly choose a monster with CR 10 (or lower if he found a lower CR monster he thought would be more powerful, but the odds of that are slim), I do NOT know which monster he has chosen.
In return, I build a 10th Level Character. My character and his monster will then face each other, with one of the other players in my party acting as substitute-DM though make it all go smoothly.

So here's what I'm asking help for: I already have 2 different characters built, but I'm still in doubt if either is really strong enough, being a former DM myself I know there's some really tough CR 10 Monsters. So what I'm asking from all of you guys (and gals) is to give me some rough ideas of possible characters. So NOT fully built characters, that wouldn't be fair, but just general ideas of Class/PreClass combinations, stuff like that.

The rules for this challenge are:
- Only PHB races.
- 10th Level, no gestalt or silly things like that.
- Books: PHB/DMG, All Completes including Psionics (also EPH, if needed), All Eberron Books (though no action points allowed), Song & Silence/Sword & Fist/etc. books allowed, Unearthed Arcana partially allowed (most optional rules not allowed, but PreClasses/Feats are).
- Ability Scores: 14, 14, 16, 16, 18, 18 (very high, I know).
- Normal cash for 10th Level Character.
- No restrictions on Magic Items.

I really hope people will give me some ideas to work with :) Thanks in advance.

PS: If this is not the right place to post this request, I apologise.

Douglas
2007-07-09, 02:52 PM
CoDzilla or a batman Wizard should be able to do it.

mudbunny
2007-07-09, 02:56 PM
You mightbe better served here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18300) in the character-builder thread. Read the first post, it has some formatting rules in it.

As another option, you might try the Wizards of the Coast Character Optimization boards, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339). Again, read the stickies, as there are some formatting requirements.

reorith
2007-07-09, 02:57 PM
is multi classing allowed?

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 02:58 PM
Yeah, go Wizard. I would suggest an übercharger, but I'll bet you anything that the monster is flying, incorporeal, or both.

EDIT: You've got to do a lot more work on the terms of your duel. Where is it going to take place? Will you start five feet away from each other, in a featureless stone arena? Three miles away, in an underwater adamantine labyrinth? How much of your total WBL can you spend on one-use items?

Wiz828
2007-07-09, 03:02 PM
is multi classing allowed?

Yes, as long as it wouldn't normally give an XP penalty.

And Douglas, what on earth are CoDzilla and Batman Wizard???


Inyssius Tor, that's the thing, we don't know where it will take place, since the substitute DM decides that ;) Although I'm fairly certain it will be on the surface, not over or under it and not in water ;)
But part of what makes it tricky is that you really don't know what ur up against and what the surroundings are, that's why I actually need the help ;)

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 03:07 PM
"I'm batman (and now, you can be too!)" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) He beats everything. Seriously. I'm only being a little hyperbolic when I say that the well-played Wizard wins D&D.

CoDzilla: Cleric or Druid. -Zilla. They're just really good classes.

Gralamin
2007-07-09, 03:08 PM
Human Artificer 10. Use metamagic spell trigger to your greatest advantage.

You'll want some metamagic feats, and a Wand of Enervation, and a wand of say Scorching Ray.

You want the following metamagic feats:
Empower
Maximize
Split Ray
Twin Spell.

If you can have the room, In case it's undead, get the following:
Energy Substitution
Energy Admixture


Your battle plan is to kill it in one turn, using up as many charges on the wand as you can (through metamagic spell trigger.)

Worse case scenario: Clay Golem.
To deal with this, I'd suggest an Elemental orb of X wand (Found in Complete Arcane). These ignore spell resistance, and thus effect Golem's.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 03:13 PM
Eeesh. Yeah, that'll do it.

To quote Tempest Stormwind, on the CoDzilla:

Meanwhile, ask yourself a simple question.

What is the cleric or druid bad at?
And, of course, the obligatory OOTS link... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)

Wiz828
2007-07-09, 04:34 PM
"I'm batman (and now, you can be too!)" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) He beats everything. Seriously. I'm only being a little hyperbolic when I say that the well-played Wizard wins D&D.

CoDzilla: Cleric or Druid. -Zilla. They're just really good classes.

Problem is, Ninja assumes a "normal" party of 4 people, this is one character on his own, I'm not so sure a 10th level Wizard would still be the best choice.

lord_khaine
2007-07-09, 05:10 PM
i personaly think you would be better served with a druid, they are much easyer to play than a wizard, for somene new to powergaming.

ill try and give it a shot later.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 05:14 PM
Problem is, Ninja assumes a "normal" party of 4 people, this is one character on his own, I'm not so sure a 10th level Wizard would still be the best choice.

At tenth level, you may have a point. Above tenth level, it doesn't matter how many companions you don't have.

Alternative response: Oh yeah? You want some of this? Come on, make my day!

Bassetking
2007-07-09, 05:18 PM
The Best tenth level character I've ever constructed runs something along these lines...

*NOTE: THIS BUILD IS CONSTRUCTED AROUND A SINGLE ENCOUNTER MODEL. IT IS NOT AS PLAYABLE IN A LONG TERM CAMPAIGN.*

However, since this is a single encounter, it works just fine :smallbiggrin:

Rogue 10

Yup, straight Rogue. You're going to need at least a 12 in your intelligence.

...and a few items.

You're going to need to take the tenth level ability "Skill Mastery" And use one of the focuses it grants on "Use Magic Device"

You're going to need to put maximum ranks into "Use Magic Device"

You're going to need to purchase a +10 Ring of Use Magic Device = 10,000gp

You're going to need to use the feat "Skill Focus: Use Magic Device"

Congrats, you're now capable of making DC 36+(Cha Mod) UMD Checks. Since the DC to cast ninth level spells is 34, you have no chance of failure.

Go to town with Ninth Level Spellcasting, and rain hideous destruction upon his monster's head.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 05:23 PM
...oh snap!

Wiz828
2007-07-09, 05:55 PM
The Best tenth level character I've ever constructed runs something along these lines...

*NOTE: THIS BUILD IS CONSTRUCTED AROUND A SINGLE ENCOUNTER MODEL. IT IS NOT AS PLAYABLE IN A LONG TERM CAMPAIGN.*

However, since this is a single encounter, it works just fine :smallbiggrin:

Rogue 10

Yup, straight Rogue. You're going to need at least a 12 in your intelligence.

...and a few items.

You're going to need to take the tenth level ability "Skill Mastery" And use one of the focuses it grants on "Use Magic Device"

You're going to need to put maximum ranks into "Use Magic Device"

You're going to need to purchase a +10 Ring of Use Magic Device = 10,000gp

You're going to need to use the feat "Skill Focus: Use Magic Device"

Congrats, you're now capable of making DC 36+(Cha Mod) UMD Checks. Since the DC to cast ninth level spells is 34, you have no chance of failure.

Go to town with Ninth Level Spellcasting, and rain hideous destruction upon his monster's head.

I'm afraid this is a bit too much cheese even for me ;) but thx :)

Darion
2007-07-09, 07:30 PM
Its already been said, but the Artificer is literally your best bet.

Consider the following feats:
1) Maximize Spell, Twin Spell
3) Empower Spell
4) Energy Substitution (Acid)
6) Split Ray
8) Wand Mastery
9) Energy Admixture (Acid)

Applying Maximize, Twin, Empower, and Split to a Wand makes you spend 12 charges each time you activate it. Not a big deal.

Add the Admixture if its an actual HP damage spell.

Options:
#1: Enervation (if you think its subject to level drain): You'll shoot 4 rays (Split then Twin) each doing 4+d4*5 negative levels. That's between 20 and 28 negative levels, meaning instant death if it has less than 20 HD.

#2: Scorching Ray: You'll shoot 8 rays (3 for a level 12 caster, thanks to Wand Mastery + 1 for split, then doubled for Twin), each doing 24 fire, 24 acid, 4d6*.5 fire, 4d6*.5 acid, minimum of 470, max of 576.

#3: If your DM gets smart with a construct: Ray of Deanimation (SC): 1d6 level uncapped ray (so 12d6, so 4 12d6's, so 4* (72 + 12d6*.5) or 336 minimum, 432 maximum).

#4: Ray of Stupidity, in case its got massive elemental resistances, Death Ward, etc: 1d4+1 Int damage per ray, the usual 4 rays: 35 average Int damage.

Crank your dex with items, win initiative, kill. On the off chance that your DM is being highly creative, you have the win button of UMD.

Draz74
2007-07-09, 10:15 PM
Rogue 10
Yup, straight Rogue. You're going to need at least a 12 in your intelligence.
...and a few items.

(snipped)

Go to town with Ninth Level Spellcasting, and rain hideous destruction upon his monster's head.

Yeah ...
Except you need custom items to be allowed.
And your WBL won't buy too many 9th-level scrolls.
And some DMs don't agree that Skill Mastery can work on UMD. Skill Mastery allows taking 10

even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

Whereas the reason you can't normally take 10 on UMD is not necessarily "stress or distractions." I'm sure some DMs would rule that the distinction doesn't matter, but others wouldn't.

Personally, I say ClericZilla with Travel domain would probably be your best bet. Although if it were me, I'd be very tempted to go:

Human Ranger 1 / Psychic Warrior 4 / Slayer 5.
Manifester Level 8, lots of feats for battlefield control abilities, and powers to give you mobility and versatility.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-09, 10:27 PM
At level 10, every single EL-appropriate encounter will supply you with enough gold to buy one ninth-level scroll and one seventh-level scroll.

EDIT: Furthermore, a tenth-level rogue's wealth-by-level can buy you ten ninth-level scrolls (after you've bought the ring), which would easily take care of any CR 10 monster. You're right about the dubiousness of Skill Mastery, though.

Damionte
2007-07-09, 10:35 PM
Kind of a silly discussion you two were having, since you're both right and wrong.

I'm pretty sure you're DM was comign from the standpoint that a CR10 creature is designed to challenge a 4 man balanced party by itself.

At the same time it's not designed to beat a party at that level. it's just designed to eat up thier resources. Not beat the whole party.

A single 10th level character could beat a CR 10 monster by themselves, depending on what the monster is and what the character is.

Certain characters can own certain monsters and vice versa. for instance a 10th lvl rogue or a 10th lvl warlocke would have a very hard time against a CR-10 Golem. Who's immune to the rogues crit strike as well as the warlockes eldritch blast.

While those same two characters would have a much easier time vs a CR 10 creature who was suspect to those attacks. Particularly one with limited movement.

It's a situational question.

As for planning your guy, I don't know.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-09, 10:44 PM
- No restrictions on Magic Items.I know it makes me an extreme hypocrite (I got stuck with the fighter for god's sake, cut me some slack) but don't use single use items to win the day ... it's lame.

Bassetking
2007-07-09, 10:58 PM
Yeah ...
Except you need custom items to be allowed.
And your WBL won't buy too many 9th-level scrolls.
And some DMs don't agree that Skill Mastery can work on UMD. Skill Mastery allows taking 10


Whereas the reason you can't normally take 10 on UMD is not necessarily "stress or distractions." I'm sure some DMs would rule that the distinction doesn't matter, but others wouldn't.

Personally, I say ClericZilla with Travel domain would probably be your best bet. Although if it were me, I'd be very tempted to go:

Human Ranger 1 / Psychic Warrior 4 / Slayer 5.
Manifester Level 8, lots of feats for battlefield control abilities, and powers to give you mobility and versatility.

With a 10th level WBL, I still have 39,000 gp left after I purchase an entirely RAW legal Ring, generated off of Table 7-33 of the DMG.

This allows our Rogue to buy a scroll of "Overland Flight" for 1,125gp. A scroll of "Greater Invisibility" for 700gp. We're at 37,000gp still to burn.

Three Scrolls of "Gate" Just because I'm hateful enough to sling three 20hd creatures at this CR 10 monster. Three Adult Brass Dragons ought to suffice.

I have 11,000gp still to spend.

So, I'll purchase A wand of Magic Missile 5th, at 3,750, and blow the rest of the cash on the after-party.

Gold-plated ale for everyone!

crazedloon
2007-07-09, 11:09 PM
well if you want to be a little diffrent you can go warlock 10. Then just grab fell flight (so you don't have to worry about where they are) and the dead walk. Then you can just enter battle with 2 20 HD critters you revived. After all if you had time to find your +10 UMD ring why not a few 20 HD Hydras or Young Adult Red Dragons ok you can probably be more creative.

And then you have all those magic Items you can buy (the above cost you a whole 50 gp)

But then your GM may not like that and call you a cheater for having something fight for you while you hop and skip around under your Greater Invis scroll :smallwink:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-10, 01:27 AM
I know it makes me an extreme hypocrite (I got stuck with the fighter for god's sake, cut me some slack) but don't use single use items to win the day ... it's lame.

Maybe light some Candles to set the mood for an Invocation to a deity?

Kurald Galain
2007-07-10, 03:20 AM
Okay, since this is apparently far too easy - would someone care to give this a try without a caster, and without emulating a caster with UMD? :smallamused:

Behold_the_Void
2007-07-10, 03:23 AM
Psion, they excel at one encounter a day.

What? It's not TECHNICALLY a caster in that it doesn't cast spells. Manifesting powers isn't casting spells :smallsmile:

lord_khaine
2007-07-10, 03:41 AM
i have a sligtly less chessy druid suggestion.

Bjorn the druid.
druid(10) put a 18 in wisdom and Con, use the stat gains to boost con to 20.
take improved toughness , improved initiative spell focus conjuration, improved summoning, and wild spell.

and his companion

Mr brown (bear)
just a standart brown bear, in whatever dragonhide armor you like, just because an armored bear is cool.

get some random gear for both you you, like stat bosters, wilding claps and cloak of resistance, a couple of potions of flight. then cast greater magical fang on both of you, and ask for a encounter.

a)if its a groundbased opponent, cast animal growth on mr brown, and lean back to wach a 16 HD HUGE bear wreck havoc in a grapple check.

b) if the opponent is invisibel, find him with farie fire and your scent ability, then go to a)

c) if your opponent is a flying feed your bear a potion of flight, cast stoneskin or protection from element, whatevers nececary, then let it go off.

d) if you get bored start summoning dire wolfs and large elementals, just for the fun of it.

this should beat the encounter with only a standart druid and his pet, core items only.

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 09:53 AM
Okay, since this is apparently far too easy - would someone care to give this a try without a caster, and without emulating a caster with UMD? :smallamused:

There are a very large variety serviceable non-caster builds that could easily take down a CR appropriate monster by itself. It really just depends on what you enjoy playing.

Here are some examples:

Frenzied Berserker: Sucks in a party, great for an arena.

Whatever/Pyrokineticist 1: The Fire Lash grants touch attacks, reach, and can be used 2 handed with Leap Attack. What's not to love? Search for my "Flaming Homer" build on this board if you enjoy abusing this. Afraid of Fire Immunity? Use a variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e).

Hexblade 4/Paladin of Slaughter (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny) 4/whatever X: Insanely high Saves, Mettle, access to Divine feats, and with your Dark Companion and Debilitating Aura your enemies take -6 to their AC.

Blackguard 11: This one is just outside of your reach for this challenge, but its worth noting. Using the ability to trade in 11 Paladin levels, you can be a Blackguard 11 instead of a Whatever 6/Blackguard 5. Blackguard spells from the expansions are quite potent, with some 4th level Blackguard spells being the equivalent of 5th or 6th level Cleric spells. Using this trick is very helpful at mid levels, since it gives you a full BAB class loaded with special abilities AND full progression of divine spells (though admittedly, fewer of them per day). Obviously, this becomes far less helpful as you drift away from ECL 11.

Master Thrower: Afraid your enemy might not be within melee range? Who cares when you're throwing Touch Attack Trip shots? My favorite option is to combine this with Power Throw and a Harpoon of Returning.

Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2): Flight, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Dispel Magic, UMD, battlefield control options, and an all day every round breath weapon.

Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2): This one is a gamble because lots of enemies are immune to fear effects, but if you luck out, you win big. Enemy must Save vs. Fear every time you ROLL to attack. Fear effects stack. So if it fails 2 Saves, you essentially win. And your levels even stack for Flurry (yeah shuriken!). Take Karmic Strike, and you don't even have to worry about winning Initiative.

Wildshape Ranger (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-ranger): Take Draconic Wildshape or Abberation Wildshape, and you're set. Full BAB, Evasion, and tons of skills, all packed into whatever retardedly powerful form you can dig up.

Warshaper: While less powerful then a Druid or a Wildshape Ranger (because it's levels don't stack to determine what form you can turn into) a few levels of this PrC can be really useful to pick up immuity to crits, extra reach, and some buffs.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Solo
2007-07-10, 10:07 AM
Plan A:

Wizard

Celerity

Solid Fog

Black Tentacles

Cloudkill

Assay Spell Resistance

Enervation (Split Ray if possible)

That should hurt whatever comes your way

Beyond that, the no-save no SR Orb Spells (I favor Orb of Force myself) and Save or X spells should serve you well.


Plan B:

Wizard.

Celerity

Teleport.

Go first, escape, plot your foe's demise.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-10, 10:13 AM
just a standart brown bear, in whatever dragonhide armor you like, just because an armored bear is cool.

Well, you have the right to arm bears...

Renx
2007-07-10, 10:35 AM
What's the CR of a Tarrasque? ;)

Also, one thing we haven't taken to account is amount of preparation; how much warning will you have before the fight starts. This will matter mostly for a wizard who can get a lot of defensive spells in.

Also, what if your DM decides to go for a wraithformed/intangible mob with a SR+undead template... 50% fail chance for pretty much every spell, spell resistance even if it hits and negative levels give bonus levels.

mikeejimbo
2007-07-10, 11:02 AM
Were it not for the limits, I'd expect someone to suggest something particularly ubercheesy.

Even given the limits, someone should bring him up.

So, I will: Pun-Pun.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-10, 11:04 AM
Orb of force > incoporeal undead with SR.

Piccamo
2007-07-10, 11:06 AM
What's the CR of a Tarrasque? ;)

Also, one thing we haven't taken to account is amount of preparation; how much warning will you have before the fight starts. This will matter mostly for a wizard who can get a lot of defensive spells in.

Also, what if your DM decides to go for a wraithformed/intangible mob with a SR+undead template... 50% fail chance for pretty much every spell, spell resistance even if it hits and negative levels give bonus levels.

Enervation is a generally useful spell to prepare, but it shouldn't be the only one. Spell Resistance is a non-factor with spells like Assay Spell Resistance existing. He should definitely prepare Assay Spell Resistance a couple times to ensure he can harm whatever is thrown against him.