What is the true neutral branch like?

[Zhentarim]

Clerics can be any alignment. That makes me wonder, though, what would the true neutral branch of Calistria's church look like? What about Sarenrae's? I have a hard time imagining true neutral versions of these clerics, but they can mechanically exist. How do these true neutrals stay neutral without losing their power?

[Cruiser1]

Clerics can be any alignment. That makes me wonder, though, what would the true neutral branch of Calistria's church look like? What about Sarenrae's? I have a hard time imagining true neutral versions of these clerics, but they can mechanically exist.
Calistria: CN of revenge and lust. A TN Cleric of Calistria sees revenge as a way of restoring balance. Similarly, lust is merely a form and expression of intent, a universal concept that all beings possess. Therefore Calistria can be seen as one of the most balanced deities, which a TN Cleric can align with nicely.

Sarenrae: NG of temperance and peace. A TN Cleric of Sarenrae sees her virtues as the ultimate in balance, similar to a Druid revering nature. True peace involves peace between good and evil, so the best Cleric of Sarenrae could be considered Neutral.

[JBarca]

Basically said Cleric would emphasize the part of the alignment they share. So a TN follower of Sarenrae might be more interested in ethical neutrality than anything. They might heal people, but charge for it, I suppose. The Sun is neutral - it provides life, but it also can desiccate and destroy, after all.

Essentially, you look at the part of the teachings that someone of a different alignment could follow, and ignore and minimize the other parts.

At least, that's one way of doing. I'm sure there are others.

[Zhentarim]

So a TN ruler who venerates Calistria might make laws, but a CN ruler may not?

[Arbane]

Sarenrae: NG of temperance and peace. A TN Cleric of Sarenrae sees her virtues as the ultimate in balance, similar to a Druid revering nature. True peace involves peace between good and evil, so the best Cleric of Sarenrae could be considered Neutral.

Or, they preach virtue and righteousness... but they're intolerant jerks about it.

[SangoProduction]

Or, they preach virtue and righteousness... but they're intolerant jerks about it.

Being good doesn't preclude one from being a jerk.

[Inevitability]

So a TN ruler who venerates Calistria might make laws, but a CN ruler may not?

What makes you think CN people can't make laws? Not all Chaotic societies are unordered anarchies, you know.

[Chronikoce]

I've nothing to add specifically to your question but figured I'd thank you. Apparently when I read the line about alignments 8 years ago I interpreted the bit about not being able to be neutral unless your deity was as applying specifically to true neutral. As a result I've never played a single true neutral cleric because I thought it was against the rules without worshipping one of the true neutral deities (of whom I'm not a particular fan).

[Inevitability]

I've nothing to add specifically to your question but figured I'd thank you. Apparently when I read the line about alignments 8 years ago I interpreted the bit about not being able to be neutral unless your deity was as applying specifically to true neutral. As a result I've never played a single true neutral cleric because I thought it was against the rules without worshipping one of the true neutral deities (of whom I'm not a particular fan).

Actually, you got it right the first time. RAW a TN cleric must worship a TN deity. Why? No idea.

Quanch is referring to Pathfinder deities specifically. The text prohibiting a cleric from being TN if his deity isn't is not present there.

[Zhentarim]

What about Urgathoa or Abadar?

[grarrrg]

So a TN ruler who venerates Calistria might make laws, but a CN ruler may not?

Lawful has little to do with making/following laws.
Chaos has little to do with breaking/ignoring laws.

Order is a much more applicable term than Lawful to describe the alignment opposite Chaos.

[tadkins]

What about Urgathoa or Abadar?

Urgathoa: Disease is natural and necessary part of the world. Without it the world would become overpopulated, its natural resources would drain and people would starve out and die with it.
Undead, too, are part of the regular cycle of things. I'd see a TN Cleric of Urgathoa as similar to a non-evil necromancer.

Abadar: Commerce and wealth are driving forces of civilization, but the law can sometimes be used to abuse trade. A TN Cleric of Abadar would be a supporter of capitalism, but be an opponent of crony capitalism, which harms civilization and keeps people poor. I see a lot of RL parallels with that idea...

Just my interpretations of it anyway. :)

[TinyMushroom]

So a TN ruler who venerates Calistria might make laws, but a CN ruler may not?

I'd rather say the laws made by a Chaotic ruler will be prone to being experimental and unconventional and the ruler will (ab)use their authority to override the laws if they feel it's necessary.

If as a citizen you do something that's sketchy but technically legal, the Lawful ruler will probably let it slide, but they'll want to change the law and keep a close eye on you.
The Chaotic ruler will be very tempted to say "No, what you did is wrong and I'm going to punish you anyway".

The TN ruler who venerates Calistria who has been wronged will probably use the legal path to punish the wrongdoer if it's easily available, but isn't entirely above "alternative methods". The Chaotic ruler doesn't care and has already called their secret (or less secret) assassin squad.

Of course, these are guidelines and it depends a lot on the specific situation.

[Eldonauran]

I see TN like I see people in real life. Most try to get by while not actively out to take advantage of, or intentionally harming, anyone. Real Good and real Evil are fewer and far between (people can have good/evil impulses, but few actually act on them consistently enough to make the transition), and most people have varying beliefs about Law and Chaos, and apply them in less than optimal ways depending on circumstance (i.e., could hold two or more beliefs on a subject without being aware, or caring, that they conflict).

As far as TN clerics, most of the same goes for them, except that they strive to match their ideals of their chosen god while being aware they can't (or don't) match up exactly. Sort of 'fake it till you make it' except they really believe. They embody the ideals of their god (Aura) but still fall short of it. Work in progress, I would say. Still devote but need character building. Enough for the god to make use of.

[Zhentarim]

Thank you everybody!

[denthor]

Why do people keep getting this notion.

When the clerics of a god become speakers and doers. They must be rooted somehow.

If a god is N(neutral )G(ood) they can be one off from that the root is G (ood) so they are Lawful or chaotic or neutral. Good.

If the god is Chaotic (Neutral ) they are rooted in Chaos. The proclaimers are Chaotic good neutral or evil.

That is the sliding scale.

A cleric can not be N (eutral) N(eutral) unless the god is at which point N (eutral) is the anchor and Chaos Law Good Evil do not matter. Those five alignments are available.

Otherwise you are not adherent to the deity.

[tadkins]

A cleric can not be N (eutral) N(eutral) unless the god is at which point N (eutral) is the anchor and Chaos Law Good Evil do not matter. Those five alignments are available.

Otherwise you are not adherent to the deity.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/
Alignment: A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of her deity’s, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.

If what you said was true, that rule wouldn't be there.

[Florian]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/
Alignment: A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of her deity’s, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.

If what you said was true, that rule wouldn't be there.

I think that was just a complicated way to say that only 4 possible combinations can have TN clerics and also a reminder of the added rules for domains, when it comes to alignment or planar (sub) domains. Meaning: A TN cleric of Caistra can't take the "Chaos" domain, a TN cleric or Urgathoa can't take the "Evil" domain.

[tadkins]

I think that was just a complicated way to say that only 4 possible combinations can have TN clerics and also a reminder of the added rules for domains, when it comes to alignment or planar (sub) domains. Meaning: A TN cleric of Caistra can't take the "Chaos" domain, a TN cleric or Urgathoa can't take the "Evil" domain.

I dunno, there's a separate rule for that on the same page under Domains.


A cleric’s deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain.