Gish help please (might be a bit long)

[Klorox]

I've played so many different roles over the years, 8 can't say I have a favorite anymore. I just like to have a character that feels useful and don't like redundancy.

Here's the party so far (we only played at level 1, and we're told we will be level 3 next game. We can switch out character me now, but I don't think anybody else will).

Party is:

Half orc paladin
Elf ranger (new UA one, ranged attacks)
Elf druid
Halfling bard

I was playing a human fighter. The idea was to be a fighter 1/ bladelock X

I am reconsidering. I am flirting with the idea of a paladin 2/sorcerer X (messing with the green flame blade and booming blade cantrips a lot).

Which character compliments the party better? Or is there a better build idea to round out the party?

[Gastronomie]

This depends on what level your campaigns generally end at. If it ends at high levels, go Paladin/Sorcerer. Otherwise, Bladelock. This is because Paladin/Sorcs require a lot of levels to work as amazing as they should, whereas Bladelocks are good even from level 2.

At level 2, Bladelocks (assuming Fiend Pact) are Fighters that got 1/short rest Hex and a temporary HP recovery system instead of Action Surge. That's not bad.

Bladelock really comes online at level 4 (Fighter 1/Warlock 3) via Darkness (at level 5, F1/W4, get War Caster to improve your concentration). In fact Darkness actually becomes more redundant as the party levels up, since more enemies will have blindsight, magical darkvision, and other ways to counter Darkness, and Darkness does not scale together with Warlock levels. Levels 4 to 6 are arguably where Bladelocks are the "strongest" in their career, and thus, if you play at low levels a lot, Bladelocks will be amazing for you.

Paladin/Sorcerers are hell fun to play, but more so at higher levels, with more Sorcery Points to mess around with.

[Klorox]

Thanks. I am told this game will end around level 10.

There's one more player joining us, so my final decision will depend on what he plans on playing.

[Specter]

Here are a few options:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer (Favored Soul) 18: a good one for abusing Quickened, but as you said takes a while to come online. When you have 18 sorcery points it's great, when you have 3 not so much.

Paladin 2/Bard (Valor) 18: Very underrated, and very beastly. Smites like Sorcadin, but also inspires, doubles as skill monkey, and Magical Secrets can get you very nice strategies that fill party roles.

Warlock (Blade)17/Eldritch Knight 3: With 5 Warlock levels, you already feel like a good gish. Fighter will give you armor, shields, bonus healing, a Fighting Style, Action Surge and extra slots with Shield/Absorb Elements.

Eldritch Knight 20: Good if you don't mind grabbing Fireball at level 13. War Magic makes your damage much nicer, and the extra ASI's don't hurt either. If you're bored after level 11, go Diviner.

Hunter 8/Cleric (Light) 12: Oh holy keeper of the forest fire, putting that Wisdom to good blasting! If you're up to Wisdom, it could work.

[Gastronomie]

Paladin 2/Sorcerer (Favored Soul) 18: a good one for abusing Quickened, but as you said takes a while to come online. When you have 18 sorcery points it's great, when you have 3 not so much.Extra Attack is not as good as it should be for Paladin/Sorcs, given how they have GFB and BB.

If you are to optimize a Paladin/Sorcerer I'd advise going either Draconic or Shadow for the origin.

If the campaign started at a higher level, 6/14 works wonders, but if the campaign's gonna end at level 10, IMO a Bladelock will be the better choice.

[Specter]

Extra Attack is not as good as it should be for Paladin/Sorcs, given how they have GFB and BB.

If you are to optimize a Paladin/Sorcerer I'd advise going either Draconic or Shadow for the origin.

If the campaign started at a higher level, 6/14 works wonders, but if the campaign's gonna end at level 10, IMO a Bladelock will be the better choice.

Seeing you're on a mission to write a guide about this, I'll say: don't disregard Extra Attack, because it opens up possibilities that a single cantrip won't.

If you absolutely need massive coronary damage, dropping two smites on a foe is guaranteed to be a success. With Great Weapon Master, it can give you two +10. The extra attack will also apply to ranged weapons (not great, but nice to have). And it involves no resource expenditure, something any Sorcadin wants at the end of the day.

Furthermore, if you only attack once and end up rolling a 1/2/3, you've wasted your action, and that's sad.

[Corran]

Well, here is how I think of this.
Extra attack will be inevitably taken as it is on our way when going for the aura of protection.
In cases when one is interested in a small paladin dip (ie 2-3ish), like in the op's case, then you have to look at the fighting style you want your character to adopt.

If this is a two hander, meaning GWM obviously, then you pretty much need to grab extra attack from the favored soul origin, and I would also recommend a third paladin level, for the channel divinity from either devotion or vengeance. Ideal progression IMO would be as follows: Paladin1 (for proficiencies) --> Sorcerer6 (for extra attack asap, ie @ lvl7), and after paladin1/sorcerer6 you need to take 2 more paladin levels (bless, channel divinity) and 1 more sorcerer level (greater invisibility) in any order (I would take the 2nd paladin level first, then the 7th sorcerer level, and then the 3rd paladin level), thus becoming a paladin3/sorcerer7 @ lvl 10. Then all the way sorcerer.
ps: Haste wont serve you well due to lack of aura of protection and due to how it hurts losing concentration to it, you will have to rely on bless and greater invisibility for your concentration for the most part (the lack of synergy between VoE and gr invisibility is kind of made up for due to the vengeance build being cheaper in activating and using resources due to the action economy of its features, ie the vengeance build will either use VoE+bless or gr invisiblity, depending on the enemy set up, and does not require sp (ie quickening) in self buffing, also, it burns spell slots in a more conservative pace due to using either CD or gr invisibility. While the devotion build will be able to use both bless and greater invisibility along with sacred weapon, thus burning spell slots faster (but when pairing SW with gr invisibility to a higher effect), but every time you self buff you have to inevitably spend 2 sp.

If you are going S&B (assuming str, due to multiclass requirement), then you have once again to start as paladin for the proficiencies, and you will need warcaster asap, meaning that you need warcaster before taking your first sorcerer level, so you have to go all the way to paladin4, before starting taking sorcerer levels.
(Forgot that the op wanted only a couple paladin levels. This complicates things considerably, as you need to find another way to involve warcaster soon, and every other way than just taking 4 paladin levels before adding sorcerer has significant drawbacks.)
If going S&B, you will need warcaster asap! Using subtle and burning sp to bypass the somatic components is not ideal for a couple of reasons (must select subtle in place of twinned most likely, as quickend is probably fixed, and you also put a lot of pressure to your sp). Starting vuman sorcerer to get warcaster is one way to go about it, though that way you are losing the heavy armor proficiency (less starting hp, and no wis save prof -and taking resilient wis is a bit hard for a hard pressed for ASIs build that has very little use for wisdom). Losing heavy armor proficiency is bad enough. The other way is to start paladin1 and then take 4 level of sorcerer to get warcaster @ level 5, though up to that point you will have trouble keeping concentration and casting shield with your reaction.
So if you are intending a S&B pal/sorc with less than 4 paladin levels (efectively meaning less than 6 paladin levels), this is the first and foremost thing you have to figure out, ie how to get warcaster asap. Perhaps the answer lies in vuman starting as sorcerer with the dragon origin and going dex based, though this has several issues as well.

Anyway, one last thing, regarding the extra attack when S&B. I think it is safe enough to skip it (ie go for another originthan FS). Specter makes good points about the lost nova potential, but since we are talking about a build that is built around going nova with ease and with very tricky resource management (ie your problem will be to resrve resources, not lacking nova), I dont think it will be a real issue. About constant and resource-free dpr, I think that GFB will serve you better than extra attack (especially since you will be missing IDS). Assuming extra attack kicks in at lvl 7 (though level 8 is a more realistic estimate for the S&B favored soul pal/sorc), GFB will be strictly better for levels 1-6(7) & 11-20, while for levels 7(8)-10 it will depend on how often you will be able to trigger the secondary damage of GFB. So if another origin gives you better things than FS (remember that there is a lot of redundancy between your proficiencies even when not starting paladin and the FS features), you can entirely skip it. I mean to say that I dont consider extra attack that critical to that build, if it was the S&B way.
(Extra points for GFB if you go with draconic fire sorcerer).

One last thing. You might want to consider taking a 3rd paladin level if when going S&B. That choice has a lot to do with what sorcerer origin you went with, ie you will have to compare the 18th sorcerer origin feature with some paladin channel divinity. The best paladin oaths for a S&B pal/sorc are ancients, crown and oathbreaker, generally. But for that a small paladin dip (level 3), ancients is pretty weak, and between crown and oathbreaker I would suggest oathbreaker (crown draws towards you, oathbreaker creates battlefield control, ie pushes away from you and your allies), as you wont be tanky enough (les hp, worse saves -compared to a pal/sorc with more pal levels) to handle the agro from crown. So balance dreadful aspect against the level 18 sorc origin feature, dreadful aspect might be very important in dealing with you low(er) hp. As for when to get that 3rd paladin level, in case you judge it to serve you better than the 18th sorc level, well, that's another story entirely and to solve that we have to look at your progression, but in order to do that, we have to figure out how we will handle warcaster.
(Edit: Thinking about warcaster again, I would go str over dex, as going dex is too MAD with point buy for my taste, so I would start paladin for the proficiencies, and then take 4 sorcerer levels asap to have warcaster at 5, exactly when BB powers up. So from level 5 and onwards I would be able to hold S&B and still cast, thinking especially about shield with our reactions), and until level 5 I would just sheethe and draw my weapon durings turns that I expected a lot of incoming attacks (sacrificing being able to do OA's, which is bad ofc, but at least if we nad warcaster at 5, we will be able to do OA's from when BB powers up, so that is nice).

[Gastronomie]

Seeing you're on a mission to write a guide about this, I'll say: don't disregard Extra Attack, because it opens up possibilities that a single cantrip won't.

If you absolutely need massive coronary damage, dropping two smites on a foe is guaranteed to be a success. With Great Weapon Master, it can give you two +10. The extra attack will also apply to ranged weapons (not great, but nice to have). And it involves no resource expenditure, something any Sorcadin wants at the end of the day.

Furthermore, if you only attack once and end up rolling a 1/2/3, you've wasted your action, and that's sad.Well, I'm not disregarding it. In my guide it largely assumes you go Paladin 6, not Paladin 2, so you always do have the option to use Extra Attack if you need it.

The guide is divided into several parts, depending on your weapon of choice (Longsword, Greatsword, Rapier), and the importance of Extra Attack changes depending on your weapon. Yeah, it's true that for Greatsword builds, Extra Attack is important - but IMO not so much for Longsword + Shield. Not that it's unneeded, just that it's not used as often as it would be in the cases withe other classes. Especially so from level 11 and higher, when the damage of GFB (and perhaps BB as well) surpasses that of Extra Attack.

IMO the strongest Paladin/Sorc build is S&B, not GWM, in which case Extra Attack itself is not bad, but not something you should waste your level 6 Sorcererous Origin ability on. If you're going Paladin 6, yeah, you automatically get it and it's nice to have, but Favored Soul is meh for non-Greatsword builds IMO.

Actually, let me re-phrase it: Favored Soul is terrible even for Greatsword builds, if your DM is allowing you to use the UA Shadow Sorcerer, which is pretty much the one and only optimized Origin option for any GWM Paladin/Sorc due to Darkness+Eyes of the Dark. And if your DM doesn't allow UA, he wouldn't allow Favored Soul either...

[Corran]

Actually, let me re-phrase it: Favored Soul is terrible even for Greatsword builds, if your DM is allowing you to use the UA Shadow Sorcerer, which is pretty much the one and only optimized Origin option for any GWM Paladin/Sorc due to Darkness+Eyes of the Dark. And if your DM doesn't allow UA, he wouldn't allow Favored Soul either...
With the exception of the GWM builds that wont get extra attack from paladin (ie they will stop at paladin 3 most likely), where FS is pretty much mandatory, but I am sure you agree with that.

I am pretty sure that you know of this too, but felt like I should mention it. Be careful as to not overestimate the importance of darkness+sight from shadw sorc, as far as GWM pal/sorcerers are concerned. I agree that it is great, but alwats keep in mind that this is an alternative way to profit from GWM, as it does not work with sacred weapon (due to action economy but more importantly due to how the light from sacred weapon would penetrate the darkness) or with VoE (advantage does not stack). So in the case of a GWM paladin (devotion/vengeance; basically the 2 optimal options) / shadow sorcerer, darkness will just be an alternative way with which to enter combat, used when CD is not available, or when you prefer to spend sorcerer points rather than spell slots (greater invisibility/ bless).

[Specter]

Well, I'm not disregarding it. In my guide it largely assumes you go Paladin 6, not Paladin 2, so you always do have the option to use Extra Attack if you need it.

The guide is divided into several parts, depending on your weapon of choice (Longsword, Greatsword, Rapier), and the importance of Extra Attack changes depending on your weapon. Yeah, it's true that for Greatsword builds, Extra Attack is important - but IMO not so much for Longsword + Shield. Not that it's unneeded, just that it's not used as often as it would be in the cases withe other classes. Especially so from level 11 and higher, when the damage of GFB (and perhaps BB as well) surpasses that of Extra Attack.

IMO the strongest Paladin/Sorc build is S&B, not GWM, in which case Extra Attack itself is not bad, but not something you should waste your level 6 Sorcererous Origin ability on. If you're going Paladin 6, yeah, you automatically get it and it's nice to have, but Favored Soul is meh for non-Greatsword builds IMO.

Actually, let me re-phrase it: Favored Soul is terrible even for Greatsword builds, if your DM is allowing you to use the UA Shadow Sorcerer, which is pretty much the one and only optimized Origin option for any GWM Paladin/Sorc due to Darkness+Eyes of the Dark. And if your DM doesn't allow UA, he wouldn't allow Favored Soul either...

I think you're being needlessly harsh to FS. Just by getting the extra domain spells you make up for Sorcerer's main weakness, the lack of spells known. Remember when Lay on Hands stopped being good because you mc'd to Sorc? Grab Life spells and be a full healer again. Want to blast without compromising spell selection? Light. And so on.

[bid]

Bladelock really comes online at level 4 (Fighter 1/Warlock 3) via Darkness
Darkness is the ultimate egotist dream, your party might hate you. I expect the overall party DPR to drop.

You should detail how to mitigate this in your guide.

[orange74]

This is getting a little off-topic, but I don't think GWM is necessarily a great idea for GWF paladins. The more damage you're doing without GWM, the more the -5 to hit hurts you. You need to be hitting on about a 5 or better for smite+greatsword to deal more damage with GWM than without. If you're smiting with 2nd-level slots or have Improved Smite, GWM is basically a bad idea unless you're only missing on a 1 or only hitting on a 20. And since a gish is going to be more MAD than a straight paladin, that ASI becomes even more valuable.

[Corran]

Darkness is the ultimate egotist dream, your party might hate you. I expect the overall party DPR to drop.

You should detail how to mitigate this in your guide.
It more or less hurts allies who fall into one of the following:
A) Rely a lot on OA's.
B) Rely on advantage and they have a consistent way from gaining it (eg reckless attack)
C) Rely on spells that reuire sight (ie mainly spells that target saves and in their description it is specified you need to see the target, so the majority of spells that target saves). Extra hurtful if that ally relies on such a cantrip for at will damage.

But due to darkness being just an alternative way to use GWM effectively, meaning that you will not use it all of the time, some of these problems can be cinrcumvented, by using it when such allies are not focusing on one of the above mentioned things (so for example, if your ally is a GWM vengeance paly, you should not use darkness when he is using VoE, and you will use it when that ally is not using VoE).
So, depending on the group and the enemy set up, the consequences of darkness can range from very bad to very good, for the group as a whole (as the above potential drawbacks become benefits when working against enemies that fall into one of these categories).


This is getting a little off-topic, but I don't think GWM is necessarily a great idea for GWF paladins. The more damage you're doing without GWM, the more the -5 to hit hurts you. You need to be hitting on about a 5 or better for smite+greatsword to deal more damage with GWM than without. If you're smiting with 2nd-level slots or have Improved Smite, GWM is basically a bad idea unless you're only missing on a 1 or only hitting on a 20. And since a gish is going to be more MAD than a straight paladin, that ASI becomes even more valuable.
No reason to go with two hander if you are not planning to grab GWM. This deserves a bit more analysis as to the reasons why, but suffice to say that a strong AC is vital for a pal/sorc, so if you are sacrificing AC points by not grabbing a shield and instead going with a two hander (which imo is not optimal, but I digress), then you better make the best of it, ie take GWM and definitely avoid IDS for the reasons you mentioned (In fact, this is why my suggestion would be that in the case of a GWM pal/sorc, paladin level 11 has a red rating, while for a S&B it would probaby have a higher than red rating.

[Inchoroi]

I might offer a different opinion!

Go Arcana Domain Cleric. Full caster, you get a couple wizard cantrips at 1st level (Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade would be good choices) and you get the cleric's utility features. I've played a gish Arcana Cleric to level 12, and it's great.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As another gish idea, how 'bout a Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard 9? Good AC through heavy armor and/or a shield, good melee through martial weapons and SCAG cantrips, good survivability through Arcane Ward, and good utility through Wizard levels. Go vHuman with Mobility or Spell Sniper and Booming Blade becomes murderously effective, at that.


I might offer a different opinion!

Go Arcana Domain Cleric. Full caster, you get a couple wizard cantrips at 1st level (Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade would be good choices) and you get the cleric's utility features. I've played a gish Arcana Cleric to level 12, and it's great.
Take Magic Initiate to grab Shillelagh and you're incredibly SAD, too-- Wisdom to attack, twice Wisdom to damage.