Chaotic Neutral Code

[Zhentarim]

What is a CN code like?

[grarrrg]

What is a CN code like?

The complete and utter absence of a code.
Don't get me wrong, they still have 'morals' and such, they just have nothing resembling 'structure'.

"the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules"

[Deophaun]

Whatever it is, it probably begins:

10 RANDOMIZE TIMER

[Recherché]

Non-existent or heavily idiosyncratic most of the time. If they bother coming up with a written set of rules then they're probably not Chaotic. Instead of following a code to the letter it's about dealing with situations as you find them and making judgment calls. That being said more principled Chaotic beings tend to find violating the rights and freedoms of others to be distasteful.

[Zhentarim]

Non-existent or heavily idiosyncratic most of the time. If they bother coming up with a written set of rules then they're probably not Chaotic. Instead of following a code to the letter it's about dealing with situations as you find them and making judgment calls. That being said more principled Chaotic beings tend to find violating the rights and freedoms of others to be distasteful.

I was asking, too because chaotic neutral dieties in Pathfinder require clerics to be within 1 step of chaotic neutral, and that feels like an oxymoron. Combine that with multiclass druid, and I'm confused.

[Zanos]

Whatever it is, it probably begins:

10 RANDOMIZE TIMER
srand (time(NULL));
cout << rand() % 10 + 1 << endl;
In my experience, this code drives all CN characters.

[lunaticfringe]

As someone who always gets Chaotic Neutral on those D&D personality tests:

Objective Morality doesn' exist. What is Right & Wrong is entirely Subjective and can change from one moment to the next depending on the situation. Setting Rules is Stone means you just got it wrong.

I don't like any concept that impedes my ability to experience what life has to offer, but I can recognize the Wisdom & benefits of said Concepts.

I don't like Rules, but I can follow them

That's my take on it.

[Recherché]

I was asking, too because chaotic neutral dieties in Pathfinder require clerics to be within 1 step of chaotic neutral, and that feels like an oxymoron. Combine that with multiclass druid, and I'm confused.

Chaotic means deciding things based on the context of the situation and not being beholden to any one stop rules. Principles are not rules though. A Chaotic being can absolutely believe that nature is in general a good idea. What they don't have are a legalistic set of rules about how one goes about promoting nature. Because maybe the technique you tried over there isn't working over here. Or you might have resources. You look at the reality you're working with and you make decisions that you think you need will advance the cause you want to advance.

Law asks "Who are you?" because in its view a person's identity with their affiliations and codes explains the person.

Chaos's question is "What do you want?" because it doesn't matter what place you take in society but what matters is what your goals are.

[Zhentarim]

As someone who always gets Chaotic Neutral on those D&D personality tests:

Objective Morality doesn' exist. What is Right & Wrong is entirely Subjective and can change from one moment to the next depending on the situation. Setting Rules is Stone means you just got it wrong.

I don't like any concept that impedes my ability to experience what life has to offer, but I can recognize the Wisdom & benefits of said Concepts.

I don't like Rules, but I can follow them

That's my take on it.

I only either get chaotic neutral or true neutral...

I can see how it is preferable to be independant and be a catylyst for change, but I pay lip service to the rules out of pragmatism since I would lose my source of income if I ignored all the rules.

[Recherché]

The weird bit is that Chaos doesn't actually hate rules on principle. They're just irrelevant and inconvenient. If the rule matches up to what you actually wanred/needed to do they yay the rule didn't get in your way and it might as well not have existed. If the rule doesn't match up to what you were already going to do then it's a bother because. You have three choices at that point, you can ignore the stupid rule and do whatever it was you wanted to do in the first place. Or you can play lip service to the rule for fear of the consequences of breaking it and grumble all the way to the bank. Or you can skirt around the rule, flagrantly violating the spirit but not the letter while giving the middle finger to whoever wrote s such a stupid rule in the first place.

[Zhentarim]

The weird bit is that Chaos doesn't actually hate rules on principle. They're just irrelevant and inconvenient. If the rule matches up to what you actually wanred/needed to do they yay the rule didn't get in your way and it might as well not have existed. If the rule doesn't match up to what you were already going to do then it's a bother because. You have three choices at that point, you can ignore the stupid rule and do whatever it was you wanted to do in the first place. Or you can play lip service to the rule for fear of the consequences of breaking it and grumble all the way to the bank. Or you can skirt around the rule, flagrantly violating the spirit but not the letter while giving the middle finger to whoever wrote s such a stupid rule in the first place.

That is basically what I do as a Pharmacy Technician and School Teacher. Stupid rules.

[AvatarVecna]

When I was making the Chaotic Neutral Handbook, I had an "archetype" of sorts in mind for a CN member of an organization, with two particular examples. Unfortunately, I never ended up finishing, but I can leave my thoughts here, in a sense:

A "Chaotic Neutral" code can be as rigid or as flexible as desired, but the driving force behind the code (and the organization that uses it) is pure freedom of choice/expression/interpretation. Somebody deviating from the rules isn't a huge issue, because the rules are not the ends, but rather the means. Here's my two primary examples of a CN code being used by a CN organization:


"The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club. Third rule of Fight Club: someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over. Fourth rule: only two guys to a fight. Fifth rule: one fight at a time, fellas. Sixth rule: no shirts, no shoes. Seventh rule: Fights will go on as long as they have to. And the eighth and final rule: If this is your first night at Fight Club, you have to fight."

"Peace is a lie; there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me."

Now, both of these examples help highlight a very important point about Chaotic Neutral organizations and codes: while many people will take up the code for the freedom to be themselves, or to be the best version of them they can be, the CN code/group also tends to attract Evil people who can't operate in the Lawful society that tries to keep them from being Evil, so you'll end up with a lot of NE/CE people joining your group as it gains traction. Of course, because the "rules" of the group were made to allow them to be free of social restrictions and embrace their true self, it's difficult to police this organization and rout corrupting influences that would pervert your "freedom of expression" goal into something more selfish and evil, and these organizations tend to either fall apart quickly, or are twisted into a dark reflection of what they once were.

CN is not random bull**** for its own sake. Chaotic Neutral is someone primarily driven by their desire for a lack of limitations, or a desire for the freedom to explore their limits and push beyond them, or a desire to stick it to "the Man" at every opportunity. Unless they are a physical embodiment of Chaos, there is a method to their madness, even if its never written down or spoken of. Figuring out your character's motivation is important regardless of your alignment, but with CN in particular it is vitally important because it's all too easy to fall into the pit-trap of "he's just lolrandom". The "rules" that govern your character don't have to be complicated, lengthy, or rigid, but your character likely has some kind of things they want, which motivates them to work towards it. Be it loyalty, money, pleasurable company, a desire for respect/reputation, or whatever else may come to mind, all characters have something that motivates them. Figure out yours, and figure out if it's the kind of thing that would be best exemplified by an internal code.

EDIT: Thought of a third CN code, although not entirely sure if it counts:


"I solemnly swear that I am up to no good."

[Psyren]

I was asking, too because chaotic neutral dieties in Pathfinder require clerics to be within 1 step of chaotic neutral, and that feels like an oxymoron. Combine that with multiclass druid, and I'm confused.

You're overthinking it; such a code would just read "don't consistently perform actions that would make you shift towards Lawful." So long as you don't do that, everything else is fair game.

[Extra Anchovies]

One of my favorite examples of a CN character with a clearly-defined philosophy is Illaoi (http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/illaoi/#champion-lore), from League of Legends.


All who encounter Illaoi are struck by her presence. An intense woman, the priestess is fully committed to the experience of living. She takes what she wants, destroys what she hates, and revels in everything she loves.


However, to truly know Illaoi you must understand the religion she has devoted her life to. Nagakabouros, the deity of her faith, is usually depicted as an enormous serpent head with tentacles spiraling around it in endless motion, with no beginning and no end. Also called The Mother Serpent, The Great Kraken, or even The Bearded Lady, Nagakabouros is the Serpent Isles’ god of life, ocean storms, and motion. (The literal translation of its name is “the unending monster that drives the sea and sky.”) Central to the religion’s theology are three tenets: every spirit was born to serve the universe; desire was built into every living being by the universe; the universe only moves toward its destiny when living creatures chase their desires.

Vecna's post also has some nice sources of inspiration. Along with Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, I'd also put Fred and George Weasley (as well as prankster characters in other works) at CN tending towards CG.

[Zanos]

The weird bit is that Chaos doesn't actually hate rules on principle. They're just irrelevant and inconvenient. If the rule matches up to what you actually wanred/needed to do they yay the rule didn't get in your way and it might as well not have existed. If the rule doesn't match up to what you were already going to do then it's a bother because. You have three choices at that point, you can ignore the stupid rule and do whatever it was you wanted to do in the first place. Or you can play lip service to the rule for fear of the consequences of breaking it and grumble all the way to the bank. Or you can skirt around the rule, flagrantly violating the spirit but not the letter while giving the middle finger to whoever wrote s such a stupid rule in the first place.
"I follow the law when it suits me and ignore it when it doesn't" sounds pretty firmly Neutral on the L-C axis to me. To be Chaotic, you do have to have a certain active disdain for the establishment, or organized society in general.

[Zhentarim]

One of my favorite examples of a CN character with a clearly-defined philosophy is Illaoi (http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/illaoi/#champion-lore), from League of Legends.



Vecna's post also has some nice sources of inspiration. Along with Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, I'd also put Fred and George Weasley (as well as prankster characters in other works) at CN tending towards CG.

Could I multiclass calistrian druid/cleric do that and be rules legal?

[Name1]

"I follow the law when it suits me and ignore it when it doesn't" sounds pretty firmly Neutral on the L-C axis to me. To be Chaotic, you do have to have a certain active disdain for the establishment, or organized society in general.

I do believe that that could also be Lawful in case you are in a country where the rules have contradictions with the rules from your own country. Though "when it suits me" would be equivalent to "when it contradicts with my country's law", I guess...

[Cruiser1]

Law asks "Who are you?" because in its view a person's identity with their affiliations and codes explains the person.

Chaos's question is "What do you want?" because it doesn't matter what place you take in society but what matters is what your goals are.
"Babylon 5" was such a great series (http://toscapetheserpentstongue.blogspot.com/2012/07/five-fundamental-questions-from-babylon.html)! :smallsmile:

Good asks "Why are you here?" because what matters is the purpose you're serving greater than your own self-interest. This can also be stated as "Do you have anything worth living for?"

Evil asks "How are you advancing?" because it's all about the material ends of self-enhancement, and higher qualities or things outside of the individual don't matter.

Neutral asks "Where are you going?" because regardless of morality and ethics, it's important to consider one's destination and steps one is taking to get there. This can also be stated as "When are you starting?" which addresses time just as the other question considers space.

[Deophaun]

"Babylon 5" was such a great series (http://toscapetheserpentstongue.blogspot.com/2012/07/five-fundamental-questions-from-babylon.html)! :smallsmile:

Good asks "Why are you here?" because what matters is the purpose you're serving greater than your own self-interest. This can also be stated as "Do you have anything worth living for?"
Where does "Who do you serve and who do you trust?" fall?

[Cruiser1]

Where does "Who do you serve and who do you trust?" fall?
"Who do you serve?" is a secondary question for Law, since it's about affiliation and hierarchy.

"Who do you trust?" is a secondary question for Chaos, since it's about individual choices and interactions to preserve self-fulfillment.

[Deophaun]

"Who do you serve?" is a secondary question for Law, since it's about affiliation and hierarchy.

"Who do you trust?" is a secondary question for Chaos, since it's about individual choices and interactions to preserve self-fulfillment.
So... technomages are Lawful Chaotic.

[grarrrg]

I do believe that that could also be Lawful in case you are in a country where the rules have contradictions with the rules from your own country. Though "when it suits me" would be equivalent to "when it contradicts with my country's law", I guess...

My main issue with the Law/Chaos scale is that it should really be the Order/Chaos scale.
Calling it the Law/Chaos scale leads to much confusion with actual laws, which really have nothing much to do with it.
There is some overlap between Order and following laws, but "Lawful always follows laws" is utter nonsense.

[Fizban]

The Fight Club rules are actually a good example of the neutral in CN: the first actual rule beyond secrecy is that if someone says stop, you stop. You're both here to fight, but if the other guy is done fighting then you don't get to just keep beating them for your own satisfaction. It turns out the leader himself was corrupt from the beginning, but the Fight Club was solidly CN and would be just fine for say, the underground followers of a strength deity in a land that bans fighting rings (for some reason).

[Doc_Maynot]

Well, to cite the 3.5 CN Paladin Variant, the Anarch.


Code of Conduct: An Anarch must be of chaotic neutral alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever commits a blatantly lawful act (such as abiding by an oath, fulfilling a contract, or joining an organization such as a brotherhood or fellowship). Aside from this, the Anarch's code is really little more than a lack of a code. As long as he continues to cause chaos and foment disrespect for the law in others, his status as an Anarch is secure.


I hope some of that information helps in any way.

[Zhentarim]

Well, to cite the 3.5 CN Paladin Variant, the Anarch.


I hope some of that information helps in any way.

It helps. If I understand, as well, my code is more about being non-good, non-evil, and non-lawful than it is about being strictly CN, so I guess I could be like Jack Sparrow and mix things up a little sometimes.