Crossbow Expert/Grappler for Rogues

[Specter]

So I just realized...

- Crossbow Expert: Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
- Grappler: You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.

With this you can do the classic "grab a random hostage and tell everyone to stop" thing. Ready your action to sneak the grapplee, and start making demands for a bag of gold and a griffon to take you away. Probably not optimal, but made me giggle for a second.

Carry on.

[JumboWheat01]

Well, if I ever do a criminal rogue, I most certainly will have to try this idea out. It really is simple and clever idea.

[DivisibleByZero]

A dagger in that situation wouldn't require two feats and would have the exact same effect.

[Specter]

A dagger in that situation wouldn't require two feats and would have the exact same effect.

I think so. As I said it's not optimal. But a bolt to the brain in much cooler in any case.

Also it could help in a firefight to have a creature providing cover for you.

[JumboWheat01]

What's the cover percentage of a hostage? Half cover? Whole if you're a small race?

[Specter]

I would argue that if you're directly behind them in a grapple it's three quarters cover. Bonus points if you make your enemy kill one of their own.

[Corran]

So I just realized...

- Crossbow Expert: Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
- Grappler: You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.

With this you can do the classic "grab a random hostage and tell everyone to stop" thing. Ready your action to sneak the grapplee, and start making demands for a bag of gold and a griffon to take you away. Probably not optimal, but made me giggle for a second.

Carry on.
You left your build open to bite attacks...:smalltongue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsZUGoa3JHc

ps: Seriously though, I would expect something like disarming attack and thieves' fast hands to be quite handy, meaning that if the target is carrying weapons, you might have to disarm and/or take them away from them (if for example they are not actually wielding them and instead carrying them), in order to pull this through in a more efficient way. So, maybe thief with the martial adept (for disarming strike) would do?

[R.Shackleford]

A dagger in that situation wouldn't require two feats and would have the exact same effect.

This right here.

Also its easier to reload a dagger than a hand crossbow.

Though I can say from experience that Grappler is a good rogue feat.

[Arkhios]

A dagger in that situation wouldn't require two feats and would have the exact same effect.

Not exact, but close. Dagger's d4 and hand crossbow is 1d6 in this edition. :P
A short sword would do the trick, though (and it's almost like a longer dagger anyway).

[Garresh]

You don't need grappler if you just trip them. I just rolled up a barb1/fighter5/rogue3 who has thief and battle master archetypes.

He is designed to shoot the weapon out of someone's hand, trip them, put away his crossbow, fast hands bonus action catch the enemy's weapon, and then hold it to their throat and action surge to make an intimidate check. So really all you need is crossbow expert to be that cool.

[R.Shackleford]

Not exact, but close. Dagger's d4 and hand crossbow is 1d6 in this edition. :P
A short sword would do the trick, though (and it's almost like a longer dagger anyway).

The weapon damage die means absolutely nothing to the rogue. The rogue's damage comes from sneak attack, as a Rogue who will be in melee you always want to go dagger.

The beauty of a dagger is that you can throw it, twf with it (you can throw while twf), and you can stab with it.

You can also keep a lot of daggers on your person without it becoming a liability.

Because the rogue is based around one attack that gets bonus damage (sneak attack), the main goal if you are a damage dealer is to get sneak attack to happen. Once you get sneak attack to happen, you are done attacking for the round because an extra 1d4, 1d6, or 1d8 just isn't worth getting punched in the face.

[JumboWheat01]

Unless you have a fellow friend next to your hostage, or the people trying to free them, all that sneak attack damage isn't going to do you any good because they know you there, so no real advantage to take... advantage of. So might as well squeeze as many ds as you can.

[Corran]

Unless you have a fellow friend next to your hostage, or the people trying to free them, all that sneak attack damage isn't going to do you any good because they know you there, so no real advantage to take... advantage of. So might as well squeeze as many ds as you can.
Unless you take grappler. So it would seem that this feat would be a very good pick for tis kind of build.

Though I now think that you would need action surge to both grapple and ready an action at the same round. And with disarming strike being important in this whole scenario, assuming that we will end up going with 2 fighter levels for action surge, and assuming that we will need grappler for the reason mentioned above (and also potentially xbow master for the cool effect), maybe taking a 3rd level in fighter will be better than spending a feat on martial adept. So I tend to think that battlemaster3/thief3 should be our base.

Edit: Following my though from just above, I would say that getting extra attack is definitely helpful. Extra attack will give you a second chance at grappling, or even better, sneak attack during your turn + grapple + ready action from action surge. Yeah, battlemaster5/thief 15 is what I would go with, most likely (with the off chance of choosing battlemaster6/thief14 if there is an apparent need for feats/ASIs).

[R.Shackleford]

Unless you have a fellow friend next to your hostage, or the people trying to free them, all that sneak attack damage isn't going to do you any good because they know you there, so no real advantage to take... advantage of. So might as well squeeze as many ds as you can.

Unless you take grappler, shove them prone, or the many many other ways to get advantage (which is why people like owl familiars, Cleric casting guiding bolt, inspiration, Swashbuckler Archetype which doesn't give advantage but can allow you to sneak attack).

[JumboWheat01]

I forgot about Prone, it doesn't come up all that often in my games, well, in a usable form.

Though what swashbuckler worth his name would be taking hostages? He should be out there swashbuckling.

[Plaguescarred]

A dagger in that situation wouldn't require two feats and would have the exact same effect.

Not exact, but close. Dagger's d4 and hand crossbow is 1d6 in this edition. :P
A short sword would do the trick, though (and it's almost like a longer dagger anyway).There also wouldn't be advantage on the attack roll

[R.Shackleford]

I forgot about Prone, it doesn't come up all that often in my games, well, in a usable form.

Though what swashbuckler worth his name would be taking hostages? He should be out there swashbuckling.

A Rogue with athletics expertise is pretty common. Even if the rogue isn't strength based.

Pirates (swashbuckler) take hostages.

If someone in your games aren't proning enemies then that is kinda sad. Bards and Rogues (third place barbarians) are fantastic with proning enemies (half movement, adv on attacks).

Strogues are the best sword n board fighters after all (shield master).

[JumboWheat01]

If someone in your games aren't proning enemies then that is kinda sad. Bards and Rogues (third place barbarians) are fantastic with proning enemies (half movement, adv on attacks).

Nah, it's that a lot time most of us are using range attacks, prone's bad news for ranged attackers without moving in. Most of us prefer not having our toes stabbed.