Paladin/Sorcerer Builds

[Draco4472]

I've heard of this famous combination, and if my character I currently play for SKT dies, this would make a great backup, otherwise I'd be curious in playing it for whenever the next campaign book comes out. Any suggested builds? I was thinking Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 using the storm sorcerer from the SCAG for its few abilities effective in melee, and shenanigans with 'Thunderous Smite' (which I think is a 1st level spell), but are open to any and all options.

Any suggestions

[Gastronomie]

Personally I think Storm Sorcerers are meh for Paladin/Sorcs, and I also think it's better to go Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14, but since it's your character, go with whatever you feel is best.

I'm currently working on a guide about Paladin/Sorcs, so I will PM you the link.

[SharkForce]

how is storm bad for a paladin multiclass? a very short range reposition is pretty solid, and extra AoE damage on nearby enemies is obviously better for a melee character than a caster...

i do largely feel like paladin 6 is the better idea, because holy cow is that aura ever amazing, but storm sounds like a perfectly reasonable origin for a melee sorcerer/paladin built.

[PeteNutButter]

how is storm bad for a paladin multiclass? a very short range reposition is pretty solid, and extra AoE damage on nearby enemies is obviously better for a melee character than a caster...

i do largely feel like paladin 6 is the better idea, because holy cow is that aura ever amazing, but storm sounds like a perfectly reasonable origin for a melee sorcerer/paladin built.

Draconic sorc is the go to for both the hp and the +cha on GFB, which is often quickened.

The movement requires a bonus action, which is pretty weak and only works when you cast a spell, which you won't be doing for the majority of your career. Why take those paladin levels if you are just going to sling spells? No, you sling spells with your bonus action and beat face with your action.

If the storm sorcerers' abilities worked on cantrips you'd be in business, but otherwise they'll rarely if ever see action on a paladorc.

[SharkForce]

last i checked, paladin/sorcerer multiclass builds tend to have a crudload of sorcerer levels and much fewer paladin levels. it is every bit as valid to use lots of spells with them. with quickened thunderwave followed up by either regular attacks (presumably supported by cantrip) or smites, a storm sorcerer can be quite impressive in melee (also, booming blade - in this case, combined with a spell that knocks an enemy into a position where they either need to move or do nothing, or potentially by repositioning backwards so they have to do that also - is the better single target damage cantrip anyways, and dragon won't help with that. and i care a lot more about removing one target than i do about hurting two targets if we're talking about paladin damage-dealing capabilities. if i want to kill lots of enemies, i shouldn't be taking paladin levels).

and 1 HP per level is not exactly awe-inspiring. it's nice, but... not that great. better to have than not, but it's really not the sort of thing i'd use as the basis of whether or not you take a class. a short range reposition when you cast spells isn't amazing, but i suspect it will do more to

[Draco4472]

Personally I think Storm Sorcerers are meh for Paladin/Sorcs, and I also think it's better to go Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14, but since it's your character, go with whatever you feel is best.

I'm currently working on a guide about Paladin/Sorcs, so I will PM you the link.

I can see why. The level 6 and 14 abilities make for competent melee abilities, but otherwise I gain nothing (except that awesome level 18 ability) and doesn't help my novas. I'm hesitant to choose Draconic as their +1 AC is useless in heavy armor, and I don't lose anything with wild magic, but don't think I gain anything either.

Your guide so far is awesome, thanks for the link.

[SharkForce]

wild both gains and loses. loses the predictable melee abilities of other origins, gains the unpredictable results of wild surges. after all, if you must have a small chance of a fireball detonating right on top of you, you may as well be standing right next to your enemies.

[X3r4ph]

There is only one reason to multiclass a Sorcerer with a Paladin...Divine Smite.

Divine Smite requires you to hit, or even better, make a critical hit, so extra attacks are super important. So, what better version of Sorcerer than the Favored Soul to accomplish this?

[Arkhios]

There is only one reason* to multiclass a Sorcerer with a Paladin...Divine Smite.

Divine Smite requires you to hit, or even better, make a critical hit, so extra attacks are super important. So, what better version of Sorcerer than the Favored Soul to accomplish this?

*Not true. Metamagic is another reason. Especially let's say Quicken Metamagic. Imagine this: In the heat of battle you're in serious need of healing, but for some reason your group doesn't have a healer or he/she is unavailable for the time being, and to survive the battle, you'll have to make every turn count and attack too. Casting Cure Wounds is an Action, and a Paladin doesn't have Healing Word (which is a Bonus Action to cast). However, with Quicken Cure Wounds you'll get to heal yourself with a Bonus Action and still be able to attack twice. As a Paladin/Sorcerer you'll definitely have the spell slots to also heal yourself, and not only to spam Divine Smites (which, imho, are better reserved for critical hits only, or else you'll run out of spell slots really quickly)

Edit: Derp, actually read it other way around. As Gastronomie mentions below, Aura of Protection is vastly important feature to get from paladin, even if you were selfish son of a gun and didn't care about whether your allies gain the benefit of being near you, it still helps you as well. (And as 6th level paladin you won't need to be a Favored Soul, because you have Extra Attack already. (Besides, Favored Soul has its balance issues, and not every DM will allow UA anyway, so it's not wise to expect you can be a Favored Soul))

[deathadder99]

I'm currently working on a guide about Paladin/Sorcs, so I will PM you the link.


I would be interested in the link too, I agree that paladin 6/ sorc 14 is the best split. For an Oathbreaker would Paladin 8/ Sorc 12 work too? I feel like the +CHA to attack aura is too strong to pass up.

[Gastronomie]

There is only one reason to multiclass a Sorcerer with a Paladin...Divine Smite.

Divine Smite requires you to hit, or even better, make a critical hit, so extra attacks are super important. So, what better version of Sorcerer than the Favored Soul to accomplish this?You're wrong. Aura of Protection is a must-have. And if you go Paladin 6 you automatically get Extra Attack, meaning Favored Soul becomes redundant.

[X3r4ph]

Ah yes, you are absolutely right.

Let me rephrase that then. There is only one reason to go multiclass Sorcerer 18 with Paladin 2... Divine Smite. Therefor, if you never intend to take anymore Paladin levels, you are better off sticking to Favored Soul.

[Corran]

I would be interested in the link too, I agree that paladin 6/ sorc 14 is the best split. For an Oathbreaker would Paladin 8/ Sorc 12 work too? I feel like the +CHA to attack aura is too strong to pass up.
Yeah, ofc it works, though I wouldn't do it. You see, just from the paladin oath one is able to deduce the fighting style you ''should'' be going with. So if it aint devotion or vengeance, I have to assume S&B for this pal/sorc with the oathbreaker subclass. That means less str dependancy and fewer mandatory feats (only warcaster mandatory for S&B, as opposed to GWM and resilient con/warcaster for two hander style). So that means that doing the split with emphasis on getting ASIs/feats rather than spells or other key features is not ideal. So for the oathbreaker pal/sorc specifically, and assuming that we are talking strictly for a paladin/sorcerer build, I would make the cut at either paladin6/sorcerer14, or at paladin9/sorcerer11, depending on how much the 3rd level paladin spells would be of use (ie depending on if our group can cover for many of these spells (eg dispel magic or animate dead even, though the real emphasis is on the 'healing spells', as in revifify and aura of vitality, thus you look first and foremost if the party has a dedicated healer). The paladin9 is every good as the paladin6 cut IMO, though to prioritize paladin9 over paladin6 you have to take into account external parameters, ie your group's capabilities.
Other potential cut-off points for the oathbreaker/sorcerer, are oathbreaker3 (for pal3/sorc17), though any split that does not get you aura of protection is problematic IMO (it's worth mentioning that oathbreaker is the best palain oath for this kind of build, ie pal3/sorc17), and also oathbreaker11, for oathbreaker11/sorcerer9, basicaly for IDS, in which case you will end up using extra attack instead of the cantrips most likely, to add the aura of hate bonus ad the IDS on as many attacks as possible, perhaps even looking to quicken weapons cantrips as often as possible (though yeah, this does not sound much of a plan, as if I wanted consistent dpr I would go straight oathbreaker and wouldnt multiclass into sorc, so too much trouble for nothing). So, either paladin6 or paladin9 for oathbreaker, IMO. And S&B too.
I expect this to be controversial, but I dont consider aura of hate a good investment for the oathbreaker pal/sorc. Extra damage isn't bad, but this feature underperforms seriously for an oathbreaker/sorc, especially if you compare with how this feature works for an optimal singleclass oathbreaker (PAM, sentinel). So I wouldnt go out of my way to grab aura of hate, unless of course I was on my way to level 9 (for the 3rd level paladin spells).

A quick word about the cut off points of paladin, regarding a pal/sorc build.
Haven't looked at sorcerer origins extensively, though I'll make one or two obvious mentions about them.

Paladin2/sorcerer18 (S&B only) (I would assume this plays similar to a sorcerer - Personaly, I would take a fighter2 dip instead of paladin for this build every day)
Paladin3/sorcerer17 (GWM asuming devotion/vengeance from paladin and FS from sorcerer, maybe a decent choice for S&B if you judge dreadful aspect to serve you better than the lvl18 sorc origin feature depending on the sorcerer otrigin you chose, so that may replace the paladin2/sorcerer18 for S&B builds in some cases)
Paladin6/sorcerer14 (pick vengeance/devotion if GWM, pick crown/oathbreaker/ancients if S&B)
Paladin7/Sorcerer13 (ancients only, thus S&B, perhaps wild magic from sorcerer makes for the best fit)
Paladin9/sorcerer11 (you go there if your group would profit from you havin the 3rd level paladin spells, a little extra insentive for crown as it gets spirit guradians; again, devotion/vengeance if GWM, or crown/oathbreaker/ancients if S&B)
Paladin11/sorcerer9 (S&B only; so ancients/oathbreaker/crown)
For more paladin levels you better start looking at a paladin guide.

* if GWM build, maybe there is an excuse to halt the paladin progression at a level that maximizes your feats/ASIs, due to the feat and str dependancy that build usually has, though that hurts your spellcasting, still, it may not be that bad of an option, though I say that with some reservation.

Generally I would say that paladin6 (or 7 if ancients, S&B obviously in the case of ancients) is the usual case, with paladin9 either mandatory or not, depending on what your group needs, or rather lacks.

[Asmotherion]

well, truth is that a Sorcerer X/ Paladin 2 is the best and most effective paladin one may make... Add in the Favored Soul Sorcerous Origin (if DM allowed, otherwise Dragon) and you have yourself a fully theumatic and awesome paladin that can Smite all day long. Grab Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade from SCAG, and quicken them, have Dueling as your fighting style. Get Combat Caster (Use the Human variant feat to grab it if you go human). Grab Polearm Master (the feat). Then maybe add Hex or Hunter's Mark with Magic Initiate. Add Shilelagh if you want to be SAD (this can only be done with the Warlock or Bard variations). Finally add Sentinel (for the (un)famous combo) and perhaps Mobile or Alert. You could also take 1 level of Barbarian or Monk for unarmored deffence, if you go Dragonic Sorcerer (since this things stack). Congratulations, you are awesome. This build is for a pure Casting Sorcerer that smites and still has 9th level spells. If you don't care about that, then:

Variation 1: You can get 3 levels of Warlock, to get Hex and Shilellagh, by taking pact of the tome. Also, you get Eldritch Blast, and you now are equally awesome in ranged combat as you are in melee... [Please note that the only way to be casting Shillelagh using your Charisma is either this or with the bard's magical secrets The only minus to this is a lower spell slot progression. But loosing a couple smites per day, is worth being SAD instead of MAD. If you can live without casting Wish or Meteor Swarm, I'd suggest this build. You also get nice goodies like Armor of Agathis, and depending on your patron you might get a nice ability.

Variation 2: Bard 6 (taken out of your sorcerer levels). You get to pick Shillelagh as a Charisma using ability. You also don't stop your spell slot progression, and you want spell slots. You can also pick one more spell, and hex comes to mind. This is better for more smiting (however you will only be profiting of 2 more smites per day, wich is not that much), and if you're not interested in going ranged.

Further Explained:
First of all, you'll be wielding a quarterstaff... Use Shilelagh to use your Charisma for Attack and Dammage instead of Str. You then Hex your opponent. Then, go cast a quickened Green-Flame Blade or Booming Blade. As you hit, burn a spell slot for divine smite. You then have the polearm master's second attack (since you did use your quarterstaff to attack, and the second attack is not a bonus action, it's free). Use Divine Smite again. Your first and second attacks were using a bonus action, as you quickened, so rince and repeat once more for the same turn. The dammage scales as this:

1st attack:
[Green-Flame blade if you are a fire dragon ancestry sorcerer. Calculations are made assuming 20 (+5) charisma. If you can use the Undying Light Patron for your warlock, you get a net +5 per attack, or +20 for 4 attacks]
3d8+5 fire damage
1d8+7 bludgeoning damage
5d8 radiant damage
1d6 necrotic damage

2nd attack:
1d4+7 bludgeoning
5d8 radiant
1d6 necrotic

All of this can be done twice per turn for a total of
6d8+10 fire
2d8+2d4+28 bludgeoning
20d8 radiant
4d6 necrotic dammage.

(let's just get the undying light patron into accound and make a sum):
28d8+4d6+2d4+58 total dammage. Looks pretty, doesn't it?

Minimum damage: 92
Average damage: 203
Maximum damage: 314


you also only burned 4 spell slots doing so, and 2 spell points. Let's say it was 2 level 4, one level 5 and one level 6 spell slot. Meaning you probably can (at least end game) do the same once more.

[SharkForce]

unarmoured defense does not stack with draconic origin AC. they are two completely separate formulas, with absolutely nothing on either end remotely implying they have anything to do with the other formula, so they definitely follow the standard rule about AC.

and that rule is, you get to use only one formula. you don't get to combine two or three or four, you get one, and only one. no more, and no less.

draconic gives you the option of 13 + dex mod. unarmoured defense gives you the option of 10 + dex mod + con mod (barbarian) or 10 + dex mod + wis mod (monk). those are not something you can just combine. at no point do we have any wacky formulas telling us that 10 = 13, so no, you can't start with a base of 13.

and the more multiclassing dips you do, the worse this whole thing gets. dipping for shillelagh is only a good idea if you don't have to actually play through the levels where you're dipping to get shillelagh.

edit: to clarify, this is from the perspective of a character that is already planning to be a paladin/sorcerer. paladin/warlock can sorta work, if you use melee weapon cantrips and go 2 paladin/3 warlock quickly to get your pact of the tome. but then you're basically getting nothing you really want out of sorcerer until character level 8 at the earliest, and if you do that you delay your aura of overpoweredness to level 12. now, that's just great if you start playing the character at level 12 (sort of... you've only had a single ASI, so your SADness is a lot less useful than it otherwise would be). but if you have to wait until level 12 to start playing the character you want to play, that's an awful lot of build-up.

[PeteNutButter]

wild both gains and loses. loses the predictable melee abilities of other origins, gains the unpredictable results of wild surges. after all, if you must have a small chance of a fireball detonating right on top of you, you may as well be standing right next to your enemies.

Wild magic is surprisingly good for a gish, many of the effects are better on someone who is up front. +2 AC, self healing, etc


There is only one reason to multiclass a Sorcerer with a Paladin...Divine Smite.

Divine Smite requires you to hit, or even better, make a critical hit, so extra attacks are super important. So, what better version of Sorcerer than the Favored Soul to accomplish this?

Favored Soul is probably the best for Paladin 2/Sorc x, but it is UA content, and most DMs find it a bit imbalancing.

[DivisibleByZero]

Favored Soul is probably the best for Paladin 2/Sorc x, but it is UA content, and most DMs find it a bit imbalancing.

Pre-SCAG cantrips I agreed.
Post SCAG, Draconic works better imo.

[X3r4ph]

Favored Soul is probably the best for Paladin 2/Sorc x, but it is UA content, and most DMs find it a bit imbalancing.

Very true.

In my experience the core rules are plenty imbalanced and need lots of DM adjustment to be balanced already. For the game to run smooth the DM already need to make adjustments to the rules. Adding UA just adds more option. More options that also need nudges here and there.

I can see this is a completely different discussion and I am not here to hi-jack the thread.

[PeteNutButter]

Pre-SCAG cantrips I agreed.
Post SCAG, Draconic works better imo.

The cantrips do a good job of mitigating the loss of extra attack, but extra attack is still greater, especially when you can be throwing high level smites on. The favored soul doesn't lose much in comparison to the draconic in comparison to a better use of your action.

[JAL_1138]

Can you even combine Smite and SCAG cantrips? Latest UA says the weapon attack is part of the Cast A Spell action, which is not the Attack action, and can't get, say, Sneak Attack. From that it seems like you could get one Smite or one cantrip, but not both, depending on DM. Or am I missing something?

EDIT: NVM, was misremembering the Sage Advice.

[Arkhios]

Can you even combine Smite and SCAG cantrips? Latest UA says the weapon attack is part of the Cast A Spell action, which is not the Attack action, and can't get, say, Sneak Attack. From that it seems like you could get one Smite or one cantrip, but not both, depending on DM. Or am I missing something?

The thing about Divine Smite is that it may trigger if you hit with a melee weapon attack.
Where that melee weapon attack comes from is irrelevant. It may be from a spell, or an Attack action, or an Opportunity Attack, or even an attack from a bonus action. As long as you make a melee weapon attack roll and hit, you may make a Divine Smite. SCAG Cantrips Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade are no different regarding sneak attack either. True, you cast a spell, but you also make a melee weapon attack as part of casting.

[JAL_1138]

The thing about Divine Smite is that it may trigger if you hit with a melee weapon attack.
Where that melee weapon attack comes from is irrelevant. It may be from a spell, or an Attack action, or an Opportunity Attack, or even an attack from a bonus action.

You're right, I was remembering the Sage Advice wrong. It was to do with things that require the Attack action specifically and there's an SA that directly says Sneak Attack can apply with SCAG cantrips, so Smites would too.

[Drackolus]

As for the extra slots, you don't get MORE suited overall, you just get them faster. 1-4 slot progression stops at faster level 9 (17 for pureclass paladin). Of course, 10 is around when most campaigns stop, so it is effectively better.
As for the origin, consider that, without a feat, you get either heavy armor prof (start paladin) or con save proficiency (starting sorc). If you start with draconic and go for 20 Dex, you can get the same ac of plate armor, with the added bonus of having dex saves over strength saves, better stealth and initiative.
Also , paladins are prime targets for haste, and you REALLY don't want to lose concentration on it, especially if you're in melee and twinning it, which you should be. Warcaster, con save proficiency, and padin aura are good for that.
Oh, and if you have warcaster, you can single target gfb and add cha if you're draconic. Bb is probably still better, but it's a consideration.

[DivisibleByZero]

but extra attack is still greater, especially when you can be throwing high level smites on.

That's the commonly held belief. That belief is wrong.
Pick a level (8+ so you have both features). Use extra attack and smite. I'll show you how to get similar damage using less resources via cantrip.

Edit
Think about it.
Using a rapier/longsword at level 8, a GFB is worth 1d8+Str/Dex, +1d8+Cha, (+1d8+Cha to another target). Approximately 25.5 with 18s in Cha and attack stat.
Quicken that for 2sp (the cost of a second level slot) and it doubles. Approximately 51.
That doubling, costing only a 2nd level slot worth of sp, needs 8d8 (36) worth of smites (or two 3rd level slots of smiting) to pass it and get to 53 (adding [1d8+mod]*2~17 for the weapons, plus the 36 ~53).

You spent two 3rd level slots to do what I did for the cost of a single 2nd level slot... You smote. I didn't. When I smite, it gets even worse.

The same holds true with BB and Twin, too. You don't get Cha to damage, but you spend even less resources (1pt instead of 2).
If I go HAM and spend 3sp for both, you simply can't keep up.
If I smite on any of them, I blow you out of the water.

Extra attack became redundant on a Sorcadin with the release of the SCAG cantrips. It's not redundant on other gishes, but Quicken and Twin on the SCAG cantrips makes extra attack redundant on a Sorcadin.
So like I said, Pre-SCAG FvS was better. Post-scag Dragon is better.
The extra HP are gravy.

Incidentally, this is also why I believe pal6 is almost a trap. You're giving up way too much sorcerous goodness with those other 4 levels just to get Cha to saves.
Cha to saves are nice, no doubt, but at that cost? Too much, IMNSHO.

[Draco4472]

The thing about Divine Smite is that it may trigger if you hit with a melee weapon attack.
Where that melee weapon attack comes from is irrelevant. It may be from a spell, or an Attack action, or an Opportunity Attack, or even an attack from a bonus action. As long as you make a melee weapon attack roll and hit, you may make a Divine Smite. SCAG Cantrips Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade are no different regarding sneak attack either. True, you cast a spell, but you also make a melee weapon attack as part of casting.

That's...awesome. Makes extra attack useless but I gain another 3d8 damage to my smites. My DM will hate me XD.

[Arkhios]

That's...awesome. Makes extra attack useless but I gain another 3d8 damage to my smites. My DM will hate me XD.

As a paladin (even with sorcerer levels) I would consider reserving Divine Smites for critical hits only. Imagine critting with a booming blade divine smite. That's some BOOM to you!

[DivisibleByZero]

I've been editing my post above little by little as I found time at work.
It is now much more comprehensive.

[SharkForce]

As for the extra slots, you don't get MORE suited overall, you just get them faster. 1-4 slot progression stops at faster level 9 (17 for pureclass paladin). Of course, 10 is around when most campaigns stop, so it is effectively better.
As for the origin, consider that, without a feat, you get either heavy armor prof (start paladin) or con save proficiency (starting sorc). If you start with draconic and go for 20 Dex, you can get the same ac of plate armor, with the added bonus of having dex saves over strength saves, better stealth and initiative.
Also , paladins are prime targets for haste, and you REALLY don't want to lose concentration on it, especially if you're in melee and twinning it, which you should be. Warcaster, con save proficiency, and padin aura are good for that.
Oh, and if you have warcaster, you can single target gfb and add cha if you're draconic. Bb is probably still better, but it's a consideration.

how are you getting dex saves?

as for the draconic natural armour, can't say it sounds great. you need 13 strength to multiclass paladin, and it's doing nothing for you if you aren't using it to attack. which means now you need maximum dex, maximum charisma, as high con as you can get, while delaying/sacrificing ASIs, and you probably want one or two feats as well... it could work on *amazing* rolls. but for any reasonably probable character, no way. needing max strength and charisma and decent con sounds pretty rough already... but at least it's a much lower investment cost than also needing a 4th attribute to be pretty good.

regarding whether paladin save aura is worth the extra 4 levels: yes. yes. a thousand times yes. it is by far the most powerful thing a sorcerer brings to the table. it would be amazing if it only applied to yourself; when it also applies to nearby allies, it is insanely good.

now, you may not be interested in it because that's not the character you want to play, and that's fine. but from a mechanical perspective, it is just a truly amazing ability with incredible value.

[PeteNutButter]

That's the commonly held belief. That belief is wrong.
Pick a level (8+ so you have both features). Use extra attack and smite. I'll show you how to get similar damage using less resources via cantrip.

Edit
Think about it.
Using a rapier/longsword at level 8, a GFB is worth 1d8+Str/Dex, +1d8+Cha, (+1d8+Cha to another target). Approximately 25.5 with 18s in Cha and attack stat.
Quicken that for 2sp (the cost of a second level slot) and it doubles. Approximately 51.
That doubling, costing only a 2nd level slot worth of sp, needs 8d8 (36) worth of smites (or two 3rd level slots of smiting) to pass it and get to 53 (adding [1d8+mod]*2~17 for the weapons, plus the 36 ~53).

You spent two 3rd level slots to do what I did for the cost of a single 2nd level slot... You smote. I didn't. When I smite, it gets even worse.

The same holds true with BB and Twin, too. You don't get Cha to damage, but you spend even less resources (1pt instead of 2).
If I go HAM and spend 3sp for both, you simply can't keep up.
If I smite on any of them, I blow you out of the water.

Extra attack became redundant on a Sorcadin with the release of the SCAG cantrips. It's not redundant on other gishes, but Quicken and Twin on the SCAG cantrips makes extra attack redundant on a Sorcadin.
So like I said, Pre-SCAG FvS was better. Post-scag Dragon is better.
The extra HP are gravy.

Incidentally, this is also why I believe pal6 is almost a trap. You're giving up way too much sorcerous goodness with those other 4 levels just to get Cha to saves.
Cha to saves are nice, no doubt, but at that cost? Too much, IMNSHO.

You can't compare twin BB to extra attack. It's like apples to oranges. Twin BB doesn't help you NOVA the big bad, because it has to hit two separate targets within 5ft of you. That's just spreading damage around. It's not bad, but it isn't the same.

Only with extra attack can you put out the full damage on one foe. Extra attack, quicken GFB. All smites, maybe through in haste attack.

I do agree with you on the pally 6 though. I prefer pal 2/sorc x. I am just saying Favored Soul > Draconic. You just lose that +4(actually +3 because you won't have 2 18s at level 8 if you MC) damage on GFB. And you get extra spells and other what not.

Extra attack for the ability to nova the big bad... or +3 damage when you quicken GFB? EDIT: Also so many foes are resistant to fire, meaning GFB ends up being shelved in a lot of fights anyways.

[Spiritchaser]

I don't see much discussion of Paladin 12 sorcerer 8, which surprises me a bit
Sure it's a very different sort of thing, but to my mind there can be a lot of reasonable debate about Paladin 2 vs Paladin 6, but Paladin 12 vs Paladin 20 is more clear cut.

When compared to Paladin 20, Paladin 12 sorc 8 is clearly a more powerful utility or dpr caster, and with metamagic to quicken SCAG cantrips, it's a better melee striker. With more spell slots it's a better healer, and with shield and other defensive magic it is most often a better survivor.

I don't present Paladin 12 sorc 8 as an alternative to Paladin 6 or 2, it's a different thing, more as an alternative to Paladin 20, but surely it is worthy on those grounds alone?

[PeteNutButter]

I don't see much discussion of Paladin 12 sorcerer 8, which surprises me a bit
Sure it's a very different sort of thing, but to my mind there can be a lot of reasonable debate about Paladin 2 vs Paladin 6, but Paladin 12 vs Paladin 20 is more clear cut.

When compared to Paladin 20, Paladin 12 sorc 8 is clearly a more powerful utility or dpr caster, and with metamagic to quicken SCAG cantrips, it's a better melee striker. With more spell slots it's a better healer, and with shield and other defensive magic it is most often a better survivor.

I don't present Paladin 12 sorc 8 as an alternative to Paladin 6 or 2, it's a different thing, more as an alternative to Paladin 20, but surely it is worthy on those grounds alone?

12/8 is very viable, so is pretty much anything from 2-17 paladin/sorc x. Really the capstone is what you miss out on with 12/8. But they take your action to activate so I don't know how good they actually are in play. IDS with quickened GFB = solid.

EDIT: But what order do you take the levels in?

[SharkForce]

paladin 18 is pretty danged solid, in my opinion. extending the aura to 30 feet is a big deal.

cleansing touch is fairly good as well, imo.

the level 15 feature can be pretty nice - devotion gets always-on protection from evil and good (presumably concentration-free), for example, which is quite powerful. vengeance gives you a very likely reaction attack every round as well, which is quite nice.

and of course the capstone.

i wouldn't say that paladin level 13-20 is completely devoid of merit. certainly, switching over to sorcerer has some nice aspects to it as well, but it certainly isn't without cost.

[Spiritchaser]

EDIT: But what order do you take the levels in?

I would say that Whatever you pick you will alternate between being thankful that you got it right and lamenting that you got it wrong

[Draco4472]

As a paladin (even with sorcerer levels) I would consider reserving Divine Smites for critical hits only. Imagine critting with a booming blade divine smite. That's some BOOM to you!

At that point it becomes 'Booming Foe'.

[Draco4472]

After having a closer look at the Draconic sorcerer origin, a Dex. build seems awesome. However, if I want paladin levels, I need a minimum of 13 strength, which is either 5 points with point-buy, or 3-4 if I get racial modifiers. So now I would have an ability score I would never use that costs a large sum of my available points when buying ability scores. If I do go 6 paladin, extra attack becomes useless compared to booming/green-flame blade.

So going Dex. costs me 5 points or a racial modifier and 3-4, and going Str. makes the 13+Dex. AC from draconic sorcerers useless as I'll be in heavy armor.

Either way, extra attack pales in comparison to the 'Blade' cantrips.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 seems the best choice to me, as it leaves me with the most features I can use, and right now, I'm debating between a pyromancer Draconic sorcerer, or the SCAG's storm sorcerer (with its melee compatible features).

What I can say for sure, is that with the Green-Flame/Booming blade cantrip+Smite of high level combination will make my DM hate me, especially when he finds the fact that these cantrips work with sneak attack to be overpowered. :smalltongue:

[DivisibleByZero]

A Dex build is indeed awesome.
13, 16, 14, 8, 9, 16 is doable with point buy for an half elf.
If your DM handwaves the Str req following fighter's Str or Dex req, make Str 10 and Wis 12.

[Drackolus]

how are you getting dex saves?

as for the draconic natural armour, can't say it sounds great. you need 13 strength to multiclass paladin, and it's doing nothing for you if you aren't using it to attack. which means now you need maximum dex, maximum charisma, as high con as you can get, while delaying/sacrificing ASIs, and you probably want one or two feats as well... it could work on *amazing* rolls. but for any reasonably probable character, no way. needing max strength and charisma and decent con sounds pretty rough already... but at least it's a much lower investment cost than also needing a 4th attribute to be pretty good.

regarding whether paladin save aura is worth the extra 4 levels: yes. yes. a thousand times yes. it is by far the most powerful thing a sorcerer brings to the table. it would be amazing if it only applied to yourself; when it also applies to nearby allies, it is insanely good.

now, you may not be interested in it because that's not the character you want to play, and that's fine. but from a mechanical perspective, it is just a truly amazing ability with incredible value.

Sorry for the late response.
The better dex saves is simply from having a higher dex score. Doesn't sound like much on paper, but a dumped dex (8) vs. a max dex (20) is a 6 point difference - the same as a max level proficiency.

And you're right, I forgot about the 13 str requirement. If you're doing point buy (which we should assume), it's sort of a deal breaker. If you're rolling, you still need to be kinda lucky. A half-elf can get the extra stats, but of course, you need feats to make this build especially awesome.
Some DM's will allow you to use dex instead of str for multiclassing, arguing that it's similar to fighters using str or dex and the str focus on paladins is somewhat arbitrarily placed for thematics. But you're still hoping for the dm to give you something not in the book, so it shouldn't be expected, small though the request is. But it's worth a shot.

[DivisibleByZero]

And you're right, I forgot about the 13 str requirement. If you're doing point buy (which we should assume), it's sort of a deal breaker.

Not a deal breaker at all. Look right above your post.

[Corran]

After having a closer look at the Draconic sorcerer origin, a Dex. build seems awesome. However, if I want paladin levels, I need a minimum of 13 strength, which is either 5 points with point-buy, or 3-4 if I get racial modifiers. So now I would have an ability score I would never use that costs a large sum of my available points when buying ability scores. If I do go 6 paladin, extra attack becomes useless compared to booming/green-flame blade.

So going Dex. costs me 5 points or a racial modifier and 3-4, and going Str. makes the 13+Dex. AC from draconic sorcerers useless as I'll be in heavy armor.

Either way, extra attack pales in comparison to the 'Blade' cantrips.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 seems the best choice to me, as it leaves me with the most features I can use, and right now, I'm debating between a pyromancer Draconic sorcerer, or the SCAG's storm sorcerer (with its melee compatible features).

What I can say for sure, is that with the Green-Flame/Booming blade cantrip+Smite of high level combination will make my DM hate me, especially when he finds the fact that these cantrips work with sneak attack to be overpowered. :smalltongue:
Emphasis mine.
I wont debate that, but I'll offer an alternative option.
Since you are set on taking that many sorcerer levels, and since you are looking to go with a dex based character, why not take fighter instead of paladin?

What do you lose by not going paladin?
1) Divine sense: Cool ability, but you can live without it. No need to overthink this one.

2) Lay on hands: 10 points. Per day. Requires an action. I think it suffices to say that this will be used out of combat, possibly to bring back unconscious allies. Not a real loss either.

3) Fighting style: You get one from the fighter dip, so they cancel out (though from the fighter you get it sooner, that will matter when I mention the level progression in the fighter's case).

4) 1st level paladin spells: Some good options there, admittedly. Bless, wrathful smite, protection from evil, shield of faith, cure wounds, etc. The problem is that the best of these spells (bless and wrathful smite, I would say), require concentration. Yes, they are good spells, but seeing as you are aiming for 18 levels in sorcerer, you will have tons of good spells to use with your concentration. People say that versatility and having lots of different options equals power and I agree. But this is not the case here, IMO. The more you level up, the less you will ever need to use your concentration with one of these paladin spells. Especially if you consider that you intend to gish it up, I am sure you will find that with this split that has that much emphasis on sorcerer (hp, saves, AC, are all weaker than they should be for a frontliner), you will need to reserve your concentration for spells that boost your defenses (thinking of blur and greater invisibility), or for other higher level sorcerer spells that are arguably very powerful (thinking of animate objects and reverse gravity). I firmly believe that you, as a spellcaster who eventually gains access to 9th level spells), will not lose much by never getting 1st level paladin spells. After a certain point they will only have a fairly situational value to you (thinking of protection from evil and cure wounds).

5) Divine smite: Now, this is the main reason from what I suspect, that people like this dip. The thought that you can combine smiting with a full caster's spell progression is certainly very appealing (I admit to be fond of it too, or at least I once thought it was optimal and now I just think it's just fun). There is ofc the gimmick of quickening a(n) (upcast) hold person/monster and smiting the crap out of it, in which case divine smite is making an extremelly efficient use of your resources. But gimmicks tend to get old very fast, ime, so if you are not particularly interested in this kind of thing, then I will just say that the problem with smiting, in your case (paladin2/sorcerer18), is twofold. First of all, this character will have some survivability issues, as s/he is primarily a sorcerer. A heavy armor and paladin starting hp are not enough to turn you into a rank, or rather into a dedicated frontliner. There are ways to cope with this, at least AC-wise, by always concentrating on a defensive spell when in melee (blur, gr invisibility, protection from evil) and by making very frequent use of the shield spell, and this tactic is counterproductive to smiting, as it uses the same level of slots as smites do. And it wont protect you against anything that targets saves, nor will it increase your hp or offer you other kind of resistances that are required by those who take on the frontline. The paladin2/sorcerer18 is not very different to a bladesinger, in that respect, meaning that under certain conditions they can successfully take on frontlining by selecting the appropriate spells that boost their melee capabilities, but much like a bladesinger, they run a great risk by doing so, as their defense focus is very one dimensional (no save boost, and the str requirement might hurt your wisdom, ie mental defense) and their hp are not great (especially considering that the str requirement will hurt your constitution). That is why most people (or at least many people) have come to the conclusion that a bladesinger shouldn't stray too much or too often from following the combat approach of any other wizard, and only occassionaly blending in melee. The second problem has to do with how optimal is to burn spell slots to smite. Remember, smiting cannot profit from spell slots of level 5 or higher, as it caps at 5d8. You can always use 5th, 6th, etc level spell slots to smite for 4d8, but I guess it is easily understood why one shouldn't do so, bu having a quick look at the sorcerer spell list. So, that leaves you with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spell slots to be used for smiting. How many of those do you expect you will be able to use during an adventuring day? My answer is a lot fewer than you would probably expect. But I already made a mention about this earlier and it's not the main point I want to make right now. My main point would be, that this is by far the least efficient way of keeping up your dpr, and as nova'ing goes, it is not that great either. Against hordes its applicability is nearly non existent, and against a sinle powerful enemies, a sorcerer (because that is what this build is, practically) has better options. And these 'better options' (ie spells) work better with other features (spoiler: action surge), if you are set on a multiclass dip that would give you the illusion of a gish (much like paladin 2 does).

6) +1 caster level (ie spell slots for which you have no known spells but can be used to upcast known spells or for smiting, eventually resulting in an extra 6th level spell slot): This one I like, and it is by far the biggest loss from not dipping in paladin. Having more spell slots (even if they correspond to spell levels for which you dont have any known spells) is great, for a caster (or a multiclass build that is primarily a caster), since there is a lot of value in upcasting. This is partly mitigated when comparing with the alternative I will propose below (look at the fighter/sorcerer progression below, the gist of it is that you can delay the 2nd fighter level in order to get important spells first), but all in all, after some level, you will have a slightly worse spell slot progression due to losing the 2 paladin levels that add up to a single caster level (eventually resulting in having one 6th level spell slot less).


What do you gain by going fighter 2 instead of paladin 2?
1) Second wind: d10+2 hp (avg = 7.5, used with bonus action (hence you can do it in combat, as opposed to LoH), short rest rechargable. Lay on hands(10) has some extra utility, but all in all I would say that second wind is the better option, as it can be used during combat to (and believe you me, with the hp of a paladin2/dragon sorcerer of a con of 14, you are going to need everything you can get your hands on), and will restore more hp during the course of the typical adventurer day (well, even if you dont follow the DMG guidelines to the letter, all that second wind requires is a short rest to overshadow LoH in that respect).

2) fighting style: You get one from the paladin, so they cancel out. That said, you get this one sooner, which matters since you will probably want to delay a bit the 2nd level in fighter, in order to focus a bit more on your spell progression.

3) action surge: Lets start from the obvious point. If you want to go nova against multiple opponents, action surge will serve you better than divine smite. Meaning that using you action surge to cast a fireball for example, is better than spending that level 3 spell slot to inflict an additional 4d8 damage to one of them.
Now I ask you to think of this. Say you are playing a level 18 sorcerer, who somehow has some armor proficiencies, and the DM comes to you and asks you: ''I'll give you a free feature, which one do you prefer, divine smite, or action surge?''. The consider the answer you would give to that same question if your sorcerer was of a lower level than 18. Say, 15, or 11, etc. Lowering your sorcerer level, the less appealing action surge feels, and that is natural. And there is an easy way to turn this to your benefit too. Just delay that second fighter level, meaning that you are facilitating your sorcerer progression, meaning this is a good thing as you are primarily a sorcerer, and thus you almost entirely depend on whatever the sorcerer class grants you (ie spells and sorcery points for the most part). And the undisputable (at least in my mind) truth, is that after you get certain spells, action surge will rocket your nova potential and even more importantly, your character's prowess which relies on a lot of other capabilities than just being good at performing the occassional nova. We are basically talking about a 1/short rest quickened spell at no resource cost and without any of the limitations that quicken enforces, and at no cost to your action economy too. So it is trully amazing for spellcasters, perhaps even greater than for fighters who can get up to 4 attacks, and for that reason I suspect that the fighter gets a second use for it at higher levels. The only reason that not every spellcaster goes for it, is because you have to invest two levels away from your spellcasting class, which means that it hurts terribly their spell progression, so that is a very big drawback that counteracts a very good benefit (ie action surge on spellcaster). But since you seem determind to stray away from sorcerer for 2 levels, I cannot see why you would pick anything else other than action surge (I would only be tempted for cunning action, since cunning action can help with a squishy build, but other than that, action surge is the clear winner).

4) Level progression: You have more veratility as to when to include the 2nd fighter level, comparing to the pal2 case. Meaning that you can afford to delay action surge until you get enough spells and spell slots that can make good use of it. And seeing as you are almost exclusively a caster, this is not a bad thing. Especially if you want to pretend the gish often, you will need access to spells like blur and greater invisibility, as well as several spell slots with which to use shield, ASAP. So this way you get all of them faster. I would consider grabbing that 2nd fighter level at least after I got access to 3rd level spells, though delaying it even further is probably better.

5) No str requirement: Half elf (only due to direct comparison with the alternative presented), STR 8, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16. Negative wisdom hurts, both in respect to skills and to saves. And the difference of a lower constitution will be felt by a squishy character that chose to be a frontliner, this is VERY CRUCIAL, and I think I am not emphasizing this enough, or at least explaining it enough, but I think it is pretty much self explanatory.


That is why, I think optimization-wise, the fighter2 dip is strictly superior to the paladin2 dip.
If you end up going with a paladin2/sorcerer18 however, I would advise to include 1 warlock level (preferably after you get 5th level spell slots). The extra hp from AoA will help you a lot with the squishiness of this character, and upcasting AoA has a nice synergy with having spell slots for which you dont have any known spells, due to being paladin2/sorcerer X.

ps: Also, as Divisible mentioned, try to talk your DM into handwaving the str requirement. I might be wrong about this, but I really dont think it will break the balance or lead to op results. In fact, I think that all the str requirement does in this case, is to further hinder a suboptimal build, though this is just my opinion and I can respect that people might disagree with this view.

[Draco4472]

Emphasis mine.
I wont debate that, but I'll offer an alternative option.
Since you are set on taking that many sorcerer levels, and since you are looking to go with a dex based character, why not take fighter instead of paladin?

I never said I was, and wrote my concerns with doing so. All I did was admit it looks awesome.

I'd much rather go strength based, and paladin smite shenanigans are the whole reason I started this thread.

EDIT: As for frontline survivability, I had the idea to start as a Vhuman with the 'Tough' feat. I would wear heavy armor, use shield (both a shield and the shield spell). And then Draconic sorcerer would give me another 1 hp per level, which helps. Would I be invincible? No. But better then nothing. With spell-slots to spare, I think I can take and use spells to assist my melee ability.

[Corran]

I'd much rather go strength based, and paladin smite shenanigans are the whole reason I started this thread.

Emphasis mine. Quickening a(n) (upcast) hold person/monster and smiting it in the same round using the attack action and attacking twice with extra attack, is basically all that can be said about smite shenanigans.
To achieve that, you could either go up to at least paladin5 for the extra attack (in which case taking a 6th level is pretty much an easy decision), but that will delay your access to hold person (assuming non-vengeance) and more importantly to hold monster (which does not suffer from the limitations of hold person). Also, you would delay you spell slot progression which would be not kind to upcasting any of these two spells, and upcasting these spells is important so that you can increase the chances of at least one target succumbing to the spell, otherwise it is a competely horrible use of 2 sorcery points (as you need to quicken these spells before knowing whether they will work or not, so that you can use your action to attack). This is why upcasting is so crucial in this scenario, and thus why delaying your sorcerer levels is bad. So.....
You could go paladin2 and then take levels in sorcerer as planned, with the difference that you take the FS sorcerer origin, in order to get extra attack which is vital for this trick. This way you get extra attack without delaying getting access to hold person/monster and you spell progression (for upcasting those).

ps: Also, you might want to have a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496052-Opinions-about-Fighter-3-%28B-Master%29-Paladin-2-Sorcerer-%28Fav-Soul%2915-gish-build&highlight=carlos+barreto) thread.

[Draco4472]

Emphasis mine. Quickening a(n) (upcast) hold person/monster and smiting it in the same round using the attack action and attacking twice with extra attack, is basically all that can be said about smite shenanigans.
To achieve that, you could either go up to at least paladin5 for the extra attack (in which case taking a 6th level is pretty much an easy decision), but that will delay your access to hold person (assuming non-vengeance) and more importantly to hold monster (which does not suffer from the limitations of hold person). Also, you would delay you spell slot progression which would be not kind to upcasting any of these two spells, and upcasting these spells is important so that you can increase the chances of at least one target succumbing to the spell, otherwise it is a competely horrible use of 2 sorcery points (as you need to quicken these spells before knowing whether they will work or not, so that you can use your action to attack). This is why upcasting is so crucial in this scenario, and thus why delaying your sorcerer levels is bad. So.....
You could go paladin2 and then take levels in sorcerer as planned, with the difference that you take the FS sorcerer origin, in order to get extra attack which is vital for this trick. This way you get extra attack without delaying getting access to hold person/monster and you spell progression (for upcasting those).

ps: Also, you might want to have a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496052-Opinions-about-Fighter-3-%28B-Master%29-Paladin-2-Sorcerer-%28Fav-Soul%2915-gish-build&highlight=carlos+barreto) thread.

To my knowledge, smites only stack with one attack. Am I wrong? Otherwise I'd just take Green-Flame Blade and go from there. Hold person/monster are spells I intend to take as a sorcerer, and I know of the value of these spells. Favored soul is out, our DM doesn't want us to use UA material.

EDIT: Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.

[Arkhios]

To my knowledge, smites only stack with one attack. Am I wrong? Otherwise I'd just take Green-Flame Blade and go from there. Hold person/monster are spells I intend to take as a sorcerer, and I know of the value of these spells. Favored soul is out, our DM doesn't want us to use UA material.

EDIT: Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.

Not sure if it's what you meant, but divine smite has no limit per round or turn.

[Draco4472]

Not sure if it's what you meant, but divine smite has no limit per round or turn.

Having checked the PHB entry, you're right. If I need more DPR, I can exploit that and use extra attack, making Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 more appealing.

And damn, now I want to play a dual-wielding paladin with that knowledge.

[Arkhios]

Having checked the PHB entry, you're right. If I need more DPR, I can exploit that and use extra attack, making Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 more appealing.

And damn, now I want to play a dual-wielding paladin with that knowledge.

Check out my signature. I'm currently playing a Sword & Board Dual-wielder, and it's been fun so far. Can't wait to get Improved Divine Smite =)

[Finieous]

Sword & Board Dual-wielder

I don't get it. How do you "dual wield" with a shield?

[Corran]

I don't get it. How do you "dual wield" with a shield?
Well, by strict RAW you cannot, since shields are not classified as weapons, and since dual wielder and twf are supposed to work only with melee weapons (not including improvised weapons). Which is a bit silly if you ask me.

If you ignore this, you can take the dual wielder feat, so that allows you to twf with a one hander weapon and a shield (you are using the shield as an improvised weapon, so no proficiency bonus on the attack). And you can take tavern brawler to add your proficiency bonus to those shield attacks.

All in all, this build combines some options that are generally considered to be suboptimal (dual wielder, twf, protection fighting style, tavern brawler -at least for non grapplers), to great effect. I quite like this build (and the character/fluff behind it).

[Finieous]

Oh, okay. That's cool.

[Arkhios]

I don't get it. How do you "dual wield" with a shield?

An improvised weapon is still a weapon, and since a shield is by default an item held in hand (in melee range) at all times when used normally, it's an improvised melee weapon if used to attack - and you can, rules as written, attack with ANY item as an improvised weapon. (If it wasn't supposed to be a weapon at all, why call it "improvised WEAPON"?)

Since a shield lacks any key descriptors such as if it's a light or heavy, it's easy to see as a one-handed weapon.
Dual Wielder allows two-weapon fighting with melee weapons even if they're not light, which technically allows two-weapon fighting with an improvised weapon; it could be done with a torch so why not with a shield?

Anyway I realize that some uptight DM's might not see it that way, but luckily my DM does.

[Spiritchaser]

Actually the idea of attacking with a shield as an improvised weapon makes a LOT of sense...

[DivisibleByZero]

Do note that many DMs (myself included) will not allow you to keep the shield bonus to your AC on any turn that you used it as a weapon. So you are TWFing or you are S&Bing, but you cannot be doing both.

Also note that many DMs (myself included) rule that the +1 AC from the DW feat is redundant in this manner. The idea is that, when fighting with two weapons, you are able to use one of them more defensively, but it is not as good as a shield. In this case you have an actual shield. They don't stack. So it's +2ac when used as a shield, and +1ac when used to attack, not +3 all the time.

[Finieous]

Anyway I realize that some uptight DM's might not see it that way, but luckily my DM does.

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with it, except perhaps from a rules design/application perspective. I have a homebrew Shield Brawler feat that simply allows you to use a bonus action to make a melee weapon attack with a shield that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage when you take the Attack action. I think it's balanced fine with Shield Master, doesn't use the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics at all, and is therefore stronger than the combination you're using.

I was just curious what you meant by "dual-wield S&B."

[Klorox]

I like the paladin 2/sorcerer X idea because you get the feel of the character fairly early on.

I think I'm going to play one, I'm just not sure if I'll go for draconic or favored soul.

I only expect the game to go until about level 10, so FS would gain extra attack near the end of the game. I need to weight that against CHA to damage with green flame blade.

The rest of the party is:

Bard
Paladin
Monk
Ranger

[orange74]

I like the paladin 2/sorcerer X idea because you get the feel of the character fairly early on.

I think I'm going to play one, I'm just not sure if I'll go for draconic or favored soul.

I only expect the game to go until about level 10, so FS would gain extra attack near the end of the game. I need to weight that against CHA to damage with green flame blade.
I think it's also worth considering that FS gets a lot more spells known. If you're just using your slots to smite, that may not be a consideration, but with only one other full caster in the party it might be relevant. The extra attack and CHA damage come online at the same point anyway; I think the extra attack is better.

[Klorox]

I think it's also worth considering that FS gets a lot more spells known. If you're just using your slots to smite, that may not be a consideration, but with only one other full caster in the party it might be relevant. The extra attack and CHA damage come online at the same point anyway; I think the extra attack is better.

I was thinking this as well.

Additionally, the team healing duties are split between a criminal bard and paladin.

Taking a life favored soul could really help with some additional healing.

[DivisibleByZero]

I was thinking this as well.

Additionally, the team healing duties are split between a criminal bard and paladin.

Taking a life favored soul could really help with some additional healing.

No need.
Paladin gets cure wounds. With Quicken and Twinned, that's all the emergency healing you'll need. If you're going FvS, the single domain I'd argue *against* would be Life.

[Arkhios]

No need.
Paladin gets cure wounds. With Quicken and Twinned, that's all the emergency healing you'll need. If you're going FvS, the single domain I'd argue *against* would be Life.

Although, picking life domain would mean that you could prepare other spells from your Paladin list instead of Cure Wounds and... Bless, was it?

I'd say it's a great opportunity to expand your utility potential.

[DivisibleByZero]

There is one reason and one reason alone that I would consider FvS over Draconic for a Sorcadin.
That one reason is Trickery Domain.
It is absolutely loaded with spells that you would love to have, but can't justify spending any of your precious few spells known on.

[Gastronomie]

Trickery Domain indeed includes a lot of spells that are good for Sorcerers, but overall I think the best choice is Draconic for S&B builds and Shadow (UA) for Greatsword builds.

Elemental Affinity increases the damage of not only Fireball and Wall of Fire, but also Green-Flame Blade and stuff.

[DivisibleByZero]

Trickery Domain indeed includes a lot of spells that are good for Sorcerers, but overall I think the best choice is Draconic for S&B builds and Shadow (UA) for Greatsword builds.

Agreed on Draconic.
That's why I said there was one reason and one reason alone that I would consider FvS.

[Gastronomie]

Agreed on Draconic.
That's why I said there was one reason and one reason alone that I would consider FvS.Well yeah, true. Draconic is too synergistic to pass.