spell points and the warlock

[Spiritchaser]

I'm currently running a campaign with spell points, and while Warlocks are specifically excluded from using that variant rule, I've decided to try anyway.

So far(at low levels) there isn't a problem. I'd say the wizard's casting feels stronger, and with arcane recovery, stronger through most days, but it most certainly changes the feel of the Warlock. I would argue in a good way. They now have no severe penalty for wasting a slot on a low level spell... And because short rest recovery is so different, I'd say it still feels plenty different from wizard casting.

But... What am I going to get in to at higher levels? Have others tried this?

[SharkForce]

it will make the warlock stronger. it may or may not make the warlock so much stronger that it becomes unbalanced. but one of the biggest drawbacks to warlock is the lack of versatility in spell slots (it's nice that your spell slots are all the highest level possible, not so nice that you have to spend a level 5 spell slot no matter what spell happens to be the appropriate one for the occasion).

personally, i think straight warlock is probably less strong than most of the other casters as a caster anyways (though to be fair, they are much better as a direct damage dealer if built for it). so an increase in strength is not necessarily cause for alarm.

[Spiritchaser]

Well I guess in half a year or so I'll necro this thread and comment on balance at high level play.

[Arkhios]

I'm not exactly sure why would a warlock need spell points. They get a set amount of spells per short rest and all of their spells are of highest possible level at all times (Up to 5th level spells). Spells learned of 6th level and above are each castable once per (long?) rest, again no need for spell points.

[MrStabby]

I'm not exactly sure why would a warlock need spell points. They get a set amount of spells per short rest and all of their spells are of highest possible level at all times (Up to 5th level spells). Spells learned of 6th level and above are each castable once per (long?) rest, again no need for spell points.

By this same logic i am not sure why any class needs spell points.


As it is I think the warlock has the weakest casing progression in the game and so will benefit the most from spell points (balanced with the addition of at will casting). Spell points deliver flexibility, which is the thing that the warlock really lacks relative to other casters.

I would expect a bigger increase in power from a warlock with this than i would from another caster, but arguably it wouldn't push them over the top. Without the ability to make every encounter have bless or to spam shield all day long the benefits from loads of low level spells might not be as great as for those with other spell lists. So beware of the multiclass.

[Arkhios]

By this same logic i am not sure why any class needs spell points.


As it is I think the warlock has the weakest casing progression in the game and so will benefit the most from spell points (balanced with the addition of at will casting). Spell points deliver flexibility, which is the thing that the warlock really lacks relative to other casters.

I would expect a bigger increase in power from a warlock with this than i would from another caster, but arguably it wouldn't push them over the top. Without the ability to make every encounter have bless or to spam shield all day long the benefits from loads of low level spells might not be as great as for those with other spell lists. So beware of the multiclass.

But the warlock is intended to have only the few spells available at highest (up to 5th) level. By giving warlocks a replenishing spell point pool, they'll overshadow all other casters. If a warlock would have spell points enough to cast 5th level spells twice and was allowed to cast low level versions of the spells they have, they could cast a lot more spells over the day than any other caster could. It's a serious balance issue.

[SharkForce]

But the warlock is intended to have only the few spells available at highest (up to 5th) level. By giving warlocks a replenishing spell point pool, they'll overshadow all other casters. If a warlock would have spell points enough to cast 5th level spells twice and was allowed to cast low level versions of the spells they have, they could cast a lot more spells over the day than any other caster could. It's a serious balance issue.

a level 20 wizard would have 71 spell points from their low level spells. not accounting for arcane recovery, or the fact that the level 20 wizard *also* has 19 spell points from an extra level 6 and 7 spell slot. since the level 6 and 7 spell slot can't be used for level 6 and 7 spells under the spell point variant, they're only available for level 1 through 5 spells, making a total of 90 points worth.

a level 20 warlock would have 28 per short rest... so... on short rest number 2, we're looking at 84. it takes a 3rd short rest, while using most of the warlock's spell points (not super likely), to get more than the wizard at level 20. except of course that the wizard also has a much wider set of options, can prepare more at a time, and hasn't accounted for arcane recovery in any way.

at level 17, the warlock would be somewhat ahead, assuming we ignore arcane recovery still (we probably shouldn't). so the warlock does have a brief spike of power here, though of course the wizard retains a variety of other advantages.

at level 11, the warlock will have 21 spell points per short rest. not bad. the wizard will have 64 spell points from level 5 and lower spells. again, the third short rest is where the wizard falls behind (assuming we ignore arcane recovery).

at level 5, the wizard has 27 spell points, the sorcerer 30 after 2 short rests.

so, what we're seeing is that the warlock will occasionally have just a touch more spell points on a typical expected adventuring day (2 short rests), or slightly less, depending on exact level, if we don't count arcane recovery as being worth anything at all.

it doesn't match up flawlessly. but it is pretty danged close, with the wizard being ahead most of the time, and not even accounting for the wizard's ability to get more spell points out of something (meaning, the same will be true if we put in a cleric, druid, sorcerer, or bard). oh, and also assuming the warlock does in fact spend every single spell point before taking another short rest (which won't happen anywhere near 100% of the time unless the warlock is just going nuts and never saves them for when they might be needed).

i'm not seeing the huge danger of a warlock casting dramatically more spells than another caster. there will be differences. but it will be pretty close by the look of things.

[Spiritchaser]

I'll definitely have to watch out for multiclassing, but if I had to guess, I don't think it's likely. I have no problem if he gets stronger within reason, and at least so far he's been a weaker caster than the wizard. Now: some part of that has been a less than ideal availability of short rests, due to running fights, time pressure... Etc. but that certainly hasn't been always.

I've also had a few wizard villains, so the wizard has looted quite a few spells, which halls

Id love To hear from domaine who bas actually run this... I gavé To think domaine must have...

[Daishain]

Sharkforce's analysis neglects arcane recovery, which at level 20 restores 10 levels of spell slots. If we assume that translates to 14 SP (cost of 2 fifth level spells). Then at no short rests Wizard 90: Warlock 28, 1 short rest 104:56, 118:84, 132:112, 146:140, 160:168

So at this level, the Warlock only beats the wizard if the party gets a whopping 5 short rests in a single day, then not by a large margin, and only if he burns every last spell point in between short rests(meaning he can't save up for the really really nasty fight), while the wizard only needs to use up 14 (meaning he can). I've seen people talk about 5-6 SR days as if they should be common, but have never once actually seen it happen at a table, even when I was the warlock constantly pushing for those hour long breaks.

So yeah, its something that helps the lock out quite a bit, but I would not call it an OP boost.

[SharkForce]

i was deliberately leaving out arcane recovery because if i use only base spell slots, it doesn't matter what caster you put in that comparison. nobody can say it's because the wizard has extra features to recover spells that, say, a cleric or a moon druid wouldn't have.

[Asmotherion]

If you do that, any balance kept by using pact magic is lost.

The only way to make this work is:

A) All spellcasters can use a maximum of spell points per turn equal to half their Caster Level-1
B) The Warlock's magic is more wild and devastating than a regular caster's. This means he is forced to use the maximum amount of spell points that he can use every time he uses a spell, reflecting the wild power of his magic, and at the same time, leaving him with less spell points.

Imagine the spell points/mana/magic energy/whatever as a bottle of coke. A regular spellcaster's bottle of coke is a regular bottle; you open it, pur it in a glass, and put the cap back on. A warlock's is a bottle of coke that has been infused with a mentos, and then shaken brutally. As soon as you open the cap, there is a powerfull jet of magic that comes out, and then you have to close the cap asap or it will all spill out.

Give him half caster progression. Do not make mystic arcanum work on spell points, or you'll lose the math.

[Zalabim]

@Daishain: Arcane Recovery is also once per day.

@SharkForce: You also left out Eldritch Master at level 20 which gives the warlock an extra 4 slots with a one minute rest once per day.

@Asmotherion: For B) The warlock may as well not be using spell points. It's no change from normal.

For A) That's doesn't match the progression of spell point costs used in the book. The highest spell level anyone would be able to cast would be level 6 at character level 20.

[Kryx]

Warlock using spell points is as balanced as any other class using spell points. But you'll need to calculate the amount.

Using points just for the short rest spells would result in 28 spell points per short rest, or 70 points per day assuming an average of 1.5 short rests. If we calculate Mystic Arcanum slots and you'd have an effective 113 spell points which is less than a full caster's 133. 133 does not include Wizard or Druid recovery (big factors).

Even if we took 2 short rests it's 84 + 43 = 127, but 1 short rest is more common than 2 for my games even if I try to focus on providing 2 per day.

TL;DR: Warlock using spell points is as balanced as any other class using spell points.

[MrStabby]

Warlock using spell points is as balanced as any other class using spell points. But you'll need to calculate the amount.

Using points just for the short rest spells would result in 28 spell points per short rest, or 70 points per day assuming an average of 1.5 short rests. If we calculate Mystic Arcanum slots and you'd have an effective 113 spell points which is less than a full caster's 133. 133 does not include Wizard or Druid recovery (big factors).

Even if we took 2 short rests it's 84 + 43 = 127, but 1 short rest is more common than 2 for my games even if I try to focus on providing 2 per day.

TL;DR: Warlock using spell points is as balanced as any other class using spell points.

I am not saying don't do it - but I think this misses some features.

The big downside of warlock casting is lack of flexibility. If they get easy encounters in the morning they can't carry over spell slots into the afternoon after a short rest. The use it or lose it style of casting means that they get a less efficient use out of their spell slots than other casters. The corollary of this is that if they get a really tough fight in the morning they cannot draw on the afternoons resources to survive. They get 2 (or later 3) leveled spells they can cast at most, per encounter whilst the other casting classes can blow resources proportional to the difficulty of the encounter.

Putting a system in place to help caster perfectly tailor their resource depletion to the difficulty of an encounter is a big boost. The size of the boost rises with how sub-optimal the previous resource allocation was likely to be.

As a smaller, but still sometimes significant, point Mystic Arcanum casts a spell but isn't a spell slot so you cannot upcast spells from them or use them to cast lower level spells. If you add these to the pool of spell points then it is an even further boost.

[Kryx]

Putting a system in place to help caster perfectly tailor their resource depletion to the difficulty of an encounter is a big boost. The size of the boost rises with how sub-optimal the previous resource allocation was likely to be.
Indeed it is a boost to the most restrictive spell casting system. 2 per short rest is so ridiculously constricting when 1 is always hex. 2 would be fine if Hex were a class feature.


As a smaller, but still sometimes significant, point Mystic Arcanum casts a spell but isn't a spell slot so you cannot upcast spells from them or use them to cast lower level spells. If you add these to the pool of spell points then it is an even further boost.
Ya, putting Mystic Arcanum in or not is debatable which is why I included both. Depends how far you'd want to go with it.


For my games I think adding another slot if enough for a Warlock. Or to make Hex a class feature (possibly a better solution).

[MrStabby]

Indeed it is a boost to the most restrictive spell casting system. 2 per short rest is so ridiculously constricting when 1 is always hex. 2 would be fine if Hex were a class feature.


Ya, putting Mystic Arcanum in or not is debatable which is why I included both. Depends how far you'd want to go with it.


For my games I think adding another slot if enough for a Warlock. Or to make Hex a class feature (possibly a better solution).

I love the style and the flavour of warlock, and i love a lot of their spells but i found it quite frustrating to play. With no flexibility I found that hex was pretty much always the spell I wanted up as it lasted all day. That 1 remaining spell, that you didn't want to be a concentration spell felt so precious and it seemed like your only meaningful combat choice was choosing to use it in the right encounter. I haven't played fighter much (well, not single classed) but I imagine that is how a champion feels about their action surge.

[Kryx]

I love the style and the flavour of warlock, and i love a lot of their spells but i found it quite frustrating to play. With no flexibility I found that hex was pretty much always the spell I wanted up as it lasted all day. That 1 remaining spell, that you didn't want to be a concentration spell felt so precious and it seemed like your only meaningful combat choice was choosing to use it in the right encounter.
Exactly my experience as well. It's a great concept, but suffers in actual play primarily due to Hex.

[Citan]

I love the style and the flavour of warlock, and i love a lot of their spells but i found it quite frustrating to play. With no flexibility I found that hex was pretty much always the spell I wanted up as it lasted all day. That 1 remaining spell, that you didn't want to be a concentration spell felt so precious and it seemed like your only meaningful combat choice was choosing to use it in the right encounter. I haven't played fighter much (well, not single classed) but I imagine that is how a champion feels about their action surge.


Exactly my experience as well. It's a great concept, but suffers in actual play primarily due to Hex.
I feel you are making it more limitative than it ought to be. It's a matter of trade and thoughtful choices after all.

At mid then higher level, Hex is basically a free buff that uses your Concentration (lasts 8h: "get up" earlier than others, cast it then take a short rest. Lasts 24h= cast before long rest).
So you can start a fight with Hex ready.
Now, if you lose it because someone managed to break your concentration, well, it's tough. But you still probably got a few turns using it, again, for "free" (especially if using Eldricht Blast at range).

After that, it's up to you deciding if it's worth using one of your slots to put it up again or use another concentration spell, or change tactic completely.

Beyond that, I feel that any build really relying on Hex and try to optimize would take Resilient: Constitution or Warcaster, or both. Meaning you have a greater chance to keep it through the fights after level 4 or 8.
And while you have much less variety than Sorcerer or Wizard, you still get a nice few picks in non-concentration spells, so it's not like you are always using the same exact combination (at least once you are past lvl 5 or so).

If this is really a pain for you, then the most simple solution is probably multiclassing into Sorcerer. ;) I agree this is not a 100% satisfying solution, but well...

[Kryx]

At mid then higher level, Hex is basically a free buff that uses your Concentration (lasts 8h: "get up" earlier than others, cast it then take a short rest. Lasts 24h= cast before long rest).
1 out of your 2 spell slots until level 11 is not free.

Sure you get 2 back on a short rest, but if we assume 1.5 short rests on average the Warlock is expending 1/5 of his daily spells on Hex.


I feel that any build really relying on Hex
Every Warlock build I've ever seen relies on Hex just like every Ranger build I've ever seen relies on Hunter's Mark. It's such a good feature and fits the fluff of the classes quite well.


If this is really a pain for you, then the most simple solution is probably multiclassing into Sorcerer. ;) I agree this is not a 100% satisfying solution, but well...
A solution to a class is not to multiclass into another class. The same is true in reverse when people suggest to multiclass into Warlock to fix Sorcerer.

[Shaofoo]

A solution to a class is not to multiclass into another class. The same is true in reverse when people suggest to multiclass into Warlock to fix Sorcerer.

Can't fault him for thinking that multiclass is a way to fix problems when most people here only talk about how to multiclass X/Y/Z, you kinda only see classes as modular pieces that can't exist on its own.

[MrStabby]

The other question is whether your DM will allow you to rest whilst concentrating.

I think there is a legitimate argument that concentrating is not restful.

[Citan]

1 out of your 2 spell slots until level 11 is not free.

Sure you get 2 back on a short rest, but if we assume 1.5 short rests on average the Warlock is expending 1/5 of his daily spells on Hex.


Every Warlock build I've ever seen relies on Hex just like every Ranger build I've ever seen relies on Hunter's Mark. It's such a good feature and fits the fluff of the classes quite well.


A solution to a class is not to multiclass into another class. The same is true in reverse when people suggest to multiclass into Warlock to fix Sorcerer.
The thing is, you are the one seeing a problem in the class, so I suggest a solution for you.
I find it very fine as it is. ;) After all, having only a few slots on short-rest is the defining feature of the Warlock. So I don't understand very well one would play such a class if having only few spells bothers him. A bit like someone who would play an Eldricht Knight and complains about the lack of spellcasting. XD

Also, again, once you get 5th level, you can get one free Hex at the start of your day unless you are really in a dire situation. So you start with Concentration slot taken, but still your 6 slots.

Finally, while most builds use Hex, some STR melee-oriented builds may prefer using their slots on Mirror Image, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment or Fly to take some examples. Or spells given through Invocations, like Slow (although the "once/long rest" is a pain, I just don't understand why they didn't make it a bonus spell you can cast with your slots without limitation. After all, an Invocation is a hefty price to pay). Or spells available through Patrons like Blink, Command, Fireball or Telekinesis...
Because they already provide a good melee damage with GWM, so it's better to try and get advantage or otherwise provide control to several creatures (agreed, Hex helps by disabling STR or DEX checks if you want to Shove, but it affects only one creature and uses bonus action).

It's a bit sad that people always seem to focus only on pure damage based on Hex, when Warlock has many other good spells to use that also provide good boosts to damage although sometimes in more indirect ways. ;)
It just requires that the players puts more mind into spells and Invocation choices depending on his style and party, because indeed resources are scarce for quite a few levels. After all, isn't it normal for a Warlock, to have to "pay the price" for the best attack cantrip and arguably one of the best 3rd level features (Pact)? ^^


The other question is whether your DM will allow you to rest whilst concentrating.

I think there is a legitimate argument that concentrating is not restful.
I see no reason to consider that a short rest would break concentration.
Long rest is another thing though. I agree with you that the answer is not evident. Actually, I am not sure of what the RAW position is.
Examples in the PHB about short rest gives the same examples of activities as in long rest.
Long rest gives reading/eating/standing watch as "allowed activities" as long as they don't last more than 2 hours.
And gives "forbidden activities" including "casting a spell or fighting" but for an extended period of time.
Nothing is said about Concentration.

In the specific Concentration section, it's said that "normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with Concentration."

From that, I'd infer that Concentrating on a spell should be regarded...
As worst, as nothing more strenuous than reading.
At best, something natural for the caster as long as he gets all his faculties.

In the end, seems logical to me that long rest shouldn't break Concentration.
1) Because fluff-wise, it can be justified: after all, casters are great minds that spent years honing their spellcasting, so it could be comprehensible they can maintain a concentrating while restoring their forces.

2) Because logically, the text in Concentration indicates that attacking (which is a strenuous activity) doesn't interfere, so "a fortiori" resting (which is less strenuous) shouldn't affect it.

3) If long rests necessarily broke Concentration, I don't understand why then, some spells would have a >1h concentration duration, up to 24h, unless you consider that being forced to go on without rest for the whole duration is a necessary sacrifice. Feels like an unnecessary punishment to me.

[Kryx]

Can't fault him for thinking that multiclass is a way to fix problems when most people here only talk about how to multiclass X/Y/Z, you kinda only see classes as modular pieces that can't exist on its own.
Every class should be viable and fun from 1-20. Multiclassing is an alternate rule and is not a method to fix inherent problems with class design. If you're talking to a AL player or a player bound by RAW, sure, but this was obviously a design discussion.





The thing is, you are the one seeing a problem in the class, so I suggest a solution for you.
See above. It was a design discussion and multiclassing to solve potential class design problems isn't a solution.


I find it very fine as it is. ;)
Sure, there are many that do. My conversation with MrStabby was not meant to imply that everyone has the same experience that either of us does.


After all, having only a few slots on short-rest is the defining feature of the Warlock. So I don't understand very well one would play such a class if having only few spells bothers him. A bit like someone who would play an Eldricht Knight and complains about the lack of spellcasting. XD
EK is a 1/3 caster. A Warlock is a full caster. I agree that warlock is chosen because of its seemingly fun mechanics, but as we discussed above in play it was very limiting in our experiences. Making Hex a class feature would not greatly change the class' balance, but would solve much of the issue that we were discussing.


Also, again, once you get 5th level, you can get one free Hex at the start of your day unless you are really in a dire situation.
Also, again, it is not free. Maybe you play by the rules that you can hex a mouse and then short rest at the beginning of the day, but that's rather ridiculous imo. The game defines 2 short rests as the desired amount and many GMs adhere to that (myself included).


It's a bit sad that people always seem to focus only on pure damage based on Hex, when Warlock has many other good spells to use that also provide good boosts to damage although sometimes in more indirect ways. ;)
Hex is the flavorful core of the class. Without hex it's not a Warlock imo.





I see no reason to consider that a short rest would break concentration.
Agreed

[Xetheral]

Every Warlock build I've ever seen relies on Hex just like every Ranger build I've ever seen relies on Hunter's Mark. It's such a good feature and fits the fluff of the classes quite well.

I've seen three warlocks and one ranger in play. None of them has ever cast Hex or Hunter's Mark, although one of the Warlocks at least knows the former. So your experience differs sharply from mine.

[Citan]

See above. It was a design discussion and multiclassing to solve potential class design problems isn't a solution.

Hex is the flavorful core of the class. Without hex it's not a Warlock imo.


Here you go: you say it's a design discussion but you put your own opinion (which I fully respect ;)) as a bias defining what the core feature is.

Is Hex great? Sure is.
Do many (majority) of Warlock use it? Sure.
Is it because without it Warlock would not be Warlock?
I don't think so. It's just that part of Warlock's attractiveness imo is to have the feel of a caster/blaster without having to storm your brain about spell choice and resources.
That's why I was making the parallel with Eldricht Knight.
In both cases, your spells are actually your kind of nova, but you are supposed to make something mundane every other turn (weapon for one, cantrip for other).
And in this aspect, the simplest way to be good is Agonizing Blast + Hex.
Since "simple" is one quality of Warlock, most people caring about optimization take it to be done with it.

Still, there are other people that play the other Warlock's strengths. So reducing Warlock to "stack Hex on EB/weapon" is a (reductive) view, but not the whole of it.

[Kryx]

So your experience differs sharply from mine.
I never one implied that my experience was everyone's experience or that everyone must have the same opinion that I have.


Here you go: you say it's a design discussion but you put your own opinion (which I fully respect ;)) as a bias defining what the core feature is.
Uhhh, design discussions can't have opinions? Wut.

I, personally, still think that Hex is a core feature of a Warlock just like Hunter's Mark is a core feature of a Ranger (both were in 4e). There are other ways to build them, but in my opinion the flavor of hex is core to the Warlock. Some would also argue that Eldritch Blast isn't core to a Warlock, but I'd disagree there as well.

[Xetheral]

I never one implied that my experience was everyone's experience or that everyone must have the same opinion that I have.

Didn't think you were. :) Just offering my own experience for reference.

[R.Shackleford]

1 out of your 2 spell slots until level 11 is not free.

Sure you get 2 back on a short rest, but if we assume 1.5 short rests on average the Warlock is expending 1/5 of his daily spells on Hex.


Every Warlock build I've ever seen relies on Hex just like every Ranger build I've ever seen relies on Hunter's Mark. It's such a good feature and fits the fluff of the classes quite well.


A solution to a class is not to multiclass into another class. The same is true in reverse when people suggest to multiclass into Warlock to fix Sorcerer.

I'm honestly surprised that Hex isn't an invocation (or Evocation? Whatever).

The warlock had an almost perfect set up (and I like the cleric set up the same way) but a few tweaks would be nice.

Maybe concentration/long durations spells come from invocations and instantaneous spells come from slots?

*shrug*

[Addaran]

Long rest is another thing though. I agree with you that the answer is not evident. Actually, I am not sure of what the RAW position is.
Examples in the PHB about short rest gives the same examples of activities as in long rest.
Long rest gives reading/eating/standing watch as "allowed activities" as long as they don't last more than 2 hours.
And gives "forbidden activities" including "casting a spell or fighting" but for an extended period of time.
Nothing is said about Concentration.

In the specific Concentration section, it's said that "normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with Concentration."

From that, I'd infer that Concentrating on a spell should be regarded...
As worst, as nothing more strenuous than reading.
At best, something natural for the caster as long as he gets all his faculties.

In the end, seems logical to me that long rest shouldn't break Concentration.
1) Because fluff-wise, it can be justified: after all, casters are great minds that spent years honing their spellcasting, so it could be comprehensible they can maintain a concentrating while restoring their forces.

2) Because logically, the text in Concentration indicates that attacking (which is a strenuous activity) doesn't interfere, so "a fortiori" resting (which is less strenuous) shouldn't affect it.

3) If long rests necessarily broke Concentration, I don't understand why then, some spells would have a >1h concentration duration, up to 24h, unless you consider that being forced to go on without rest for the whole duration is a necessary sacrifice. Feels like an unnecessary punishment to me.

With the bolded part, just reading or standing watch can't last more then 2 hours. Long rest usually include sleeping/meditating( for elves). Wouldn't make sense for me that you can long rest while keeping concentration, at least not if you sleep. If you don't sleep during your long rest, you'll start getting exhausted.