"Don't Attack Us!"

[Pichu]

What should do you think the DC or DC equation be for Persuasion to make a creature not want to attack you?

Thanks in advance!

[Corran]

There is not a correct answer to this question, nor should there be if it was in the form of a fixed number. The DC can vary from 1 (well, most likely 5) to infinity (by which I mean that the DM tells the player to not bother rolling). Advantage and disadvantage may also apply as per DM's discretion, depending on the circumstances.

[Sabeta]

Too many variables.

Examples of DC 5
>Talking to anyone Good Aligned who hasn't been provoked
>Long-standing allies who have been given a weak reason to fight you

Examples of DC 10
>A town guard who suspects you of bad things without proof
>

Example of DC 15
>Convincing an actively hostile creature who shares your language and who has not yet been attacked.

DC 25
> Royal Guards under the direct order if a king to take you out.

DC 30+
>Same as 15, but you do not share a language.
>Anything acting purely on instinct and/or too stupid to rationalize why it should or shouldn't attack you. Use Animal Handling instead...maybe.

Of course, any of these can be changed depending on circumstance. It will be much easier to convince the royal guards not to fight you if you're already the hero of the people. It will also be nearly impossible to convince someone not to attack you if they find you next to their best friends corpse with blood on your hands.

[PeteNutButter]

Corran makes good sense, but I tend to discourage this sort of thing as a DM. There is no persuasion DC stop someone from attacking you if they are intent on killing you.

Now if they are mercenaries and you instead offer them substantially more gold, then you can have set a DC. But generally speaking if a foe is aiming to risk their lives to kill you... diplomacy has already failed. A PC should do something to make a persuasion check, not just, i ask them to not attack really nicely.

[Addaran]

Corran makes good sense, but I tend to discourage this sort of thing as a DM. There is no persuasion DC stop someone from attacking you if they are intent on killing you.

Now if they are mercenaries and you instead offer them substantially more gold, then you can have set a DC. But generally speaking if a foe is aiming to risk their lives to kill you... diplomacy has already failed. A PC should do something to make a persuasion check, not just, i ask them to not attack really nicely.

It's those cases where i ask them how they are trying to use persuade. Depending on the enemy, why he's attacking and the method of persuasion, then i'll set a DC or automatic success/failure.

A guard might be about to not take chances and kill you if he finds you near a body with your weapon full of blood. Offering a bribe might not work (no DC he's lawful), but dropping your weapon and telling him to let his lord decide might have a chance of working (DC 10 or 15). On the other hand, a greedy evil guard might accept the bribe (DC 10 or 15 to convince him you have money elsewhere) but the option of letting his lord decide would have zero chance of working. Too much assle and paperwork to make a report for the lord, might as well just kill you.

[MaxWilson]

What should do you think the DC or DC equation be for Persuasion to make a creature not want to attack you?

Thanks in advance!

Depends on the situation. Why would the creature want to attack you in the first place, and what you are offering in exchange? At my table:

* Hungry Purple Worm wants food: Persuasion irrelevant. It's going to eat you.

* An army of a thousand orcs want slaves and/or loot, and there are four PCs: "Don't kill us!" would get you a DC 10 Persuasion check to see if you are sufficiently appealing that the orcs want you as slaves instead of corpses. A more complicated bluff ("we represent the archmage Maldon the Malevolent and we need to speak to your leader immediately") would get you a series of decisions plus Deception and/or Persuasion checks that could end with you riding away in peace, or riding away in peace with a bag full of loot as "ransom" for Maldon not wiping out the orcs, or even (temporarily or maybe even long-term) taking command of the orc army--all of this depending on the choices you made while talking to the orc leaders. One plausible path to taking control of the army might require a DC 20 Deception check, followed by a Deception vs. Insight contest against the orcish leader, then a display of skill at arms to gain credibility (single combat against an orcish heavy), then some sneering and bullying roleplay, followed by a phony offer from the PCs to let the orcs "defect" to Maldon's side, and then a Persuasion check somewhere between DC 20 and 30 based on how thoroughly the PC thrashed the orcish heavy. (The more impressive Maldon's reps, the more tempted the orcs are to jump ship.)

* A squad of eight orcs spots four PCs: "Don't kill us!" would get you maybe a DC 13 Persuasion check to get taken as slaves instead of corpses. (Higher DC because fewer orcs means prisoners are more of a hassle.) "Surrender or die!" would get you a DC 25 Intimidation check to get them to surrender; DC 15 means they just warily let you go instead. Assuming the PCs are high enough level to kill eight orcs easily, I'd let Persuasion substitute for Intimidation here at an extra +5 to DC. The DC goes down rapidly as the PCs demonstrate combat capability; if you shoot off a demonstration Fireball as you're making your surrender demand (or toss a severed goblin head in the head and shoot it through both eyes before it hits the ground), -10 to DC.

* A squad of four orcs spots six PCs: same as above, but only DC 15 Intimidate to get them to flee (if practical) or surrender, and DC 5 means they warily stand their ground but don't attack.

[PeteNutButter]

(no DC he's lawful).

But what if you make an offer he can't refuse?

Every man has his price...

[Vogonjeltz]

What should do you think the DC or DC equation be for Persuasion to make a creature not want to attack you?

Thanks in advance!

Don't persuade attempts require an hour? I don't see there being time for that.

[WickerNipple]

Without context there's no real way to answer this.

But in 99% of cases I can imagine, if my players yelled "Don't Attack Us!" and started rolling dice... I would laugh at my players.

[Ashdate]

What should do you think the DC or DC equation be for Persuasion to make a creature not want to attack you?

Thanks in advance!

The DMG has DC guidelines for various NPC actions (page 245), which suggests a DC 10 Charisma check will result in a hostile creature offering no help but "does no harm." But I note that in the description for "hostile" creature it says that a hostile creature might be so indisposed that any Charisma check automatically fails. It also notes that a hostile creature may simply oppose the goals of the PCs, but not actually attack them.

I think this is generally good advice; you don't want *every* potential combat to be nullified by a simple DC 10 Charisma (Persuasion) check by the Bard. But there are certainly appropriate times where diffusing a situation would make sense for a given situation (i.e. if the NPC(s) are actually afraid of fighting the PCs).

If your PCs aren't one for gabbing with NPCs at the table, then I think the DMG table will serve you well. Yeah, a DC 10 is low but it will make the party face feel good (and in larger situations you can ask for a group check).

If your PCs relish the opportunity to flex their acting chops, then the DMG has some good advice about having the PCs need to play to a NPCs ideal, bond or flaw (see DMG 244-245). This obviously requires more work on your part for importance NPCs but it will aid you too by helping you get inside their head.

(It strikes me now that none of the NPCs--save a few with ideals--in the Out of the Abyss campaign have ideals/bonds/flaws listed. A bit of a wasted opportunity! I wonder if all their adventures mostly exclude them!)

[Iron Angel]

A lot of it has to do with the disposition and intelligence of the creature involved. You might be able to coax an ogre to play nice if there are enough of you and you can offer it more than it thinks it will gain by just clobbering the lot of you to death, and goblins will probably listen if you can intimidate or bribe them. Something like an Orc, though, is mostly in it for the rush of seeing you die, and its going to be hard to frighten or persuade them.

[WickerNipple]

(i.e. if the NPC(s) are actually afraid of fighting the PCs).

I liked your response, I just wanted to point out that in my opinion Intimidate is a more likely skill to defuse a situation that has already turned Hostile. Especially in such cases.

[CantigThimble]

I think most creatures would be inclined not to fight at all if they can get what they want without taking any risks, especially when dealing with someone who looks like they can handle themselves in a fight (which pcs probably would). Unless the objective of that npc specifically requires that they fight the players they would usually be inclined not to risk getting stabbed. I probably wouldn't require a persuasion roll for unconditional surrender like the case of the guards or orcs above. Persuasion comes in when the players don't want to fight but are also going to be keeping the target from achieving their objectives.

[Toadkiller]

The whole Firefly thing where Mal hires Jayne has its place. It's fun and can be a pivotal moment for a team. Hard to set a DC though. In fact, I fudged a roll and just let it happen in a game recently. Because it was fun, the role play was clever and awesome and the fight wasn't going to really do anything for the story anyhow. Mechanically the party got to keep some resources that would have been spent fighting nooks due to being creative and invested. Seemed fair and promoted story over dice.

The mooks ran off first chance they got which kept the party from having minions. They weren't going to fight, but they hadn't become loyal.

[ad_hoc]

The whole Firefly thing where Mal hires Jayne has its place. It's fun and can be a pivotal moment for a team. Hard to set a DC though. In fact, I fudged a roll and just let it happen in a game recently.

Why did you fudge the roll rather than just declaring success?

If you are going to roll you should set the DC ahead of time and let the dice fall where they fall.

It is perfectly fine, and really you should be, declaring automatic success or failure on attempts to do things. But if you leave it to chance you should stand by the roll.

[Tanarii]

The DMG has DC guidelines for various NPC actions (page 245), which suggests a DC 10 Charisma check will result in a hostile creature offering no help but "does no harm." But I note that in the description for "hostile" creature it says that a hostile creature might be so indisposed that any Charisma check automatically fails. It also notes that a hostile creature may simply oppose the goals of the PCs, but not actually attack them.Yeah, IMO that's the best answer. Check out the DMG rules (and accompanying tables) on Social interactions. That's what they are there for.

[Toadkiller]

Because it didn't matter- success was clearly the right thing for the story. There was a dice roll, actually I don't remember how it played out but whatever it was (behind the screen) it worked. I do sometimes have faux rolls cause I'm DMing for kids and I don't want them to think EVERY crazy idea will work. The key thing was the player invested in the story. I don't want to derail the thread with that though.

[ad_hoc]

Because it didn't matter- success was clearly the right thing for the story. There was a dice roll, actually I don't remember how it played out but whatever it was (behind the screen) it worked. I do sometimes have faux rolls cause I'm DMing for kids and I don't want them to think EVERY crazy idea will work. The key thing was the player invested in the story. I don't want to derail the thread with that though.

If success is clearly the right thing for the story then just declare success.

You shouldn't lie to people, kids or not.

[Willie the Duck]

What should do you think the DC or DC equation be for Persuasion to make a creature not want to attack you?

Thanks in advance!

3e had set rules for such things, and you see the level of criticism that brought down upon the designers. They were no so foolish with this edition. Skill DCs are strictly situational.

[Tanarii]

3e had set rules for such things, and you see the level of criticism that brought down upon the designers. They were no so foolish with this edition. Skill DCs are strictly situational.But fairly well defined for social interactions. The DMG has tables and rules. They're still flexible, but they exist beyond the standard "Easy, Medium, Hard" DC structure.

[CantigThimble]

If success is clearly the right thing for the story then just declare success.

You shouldn't lie to people, kids or not.

I don't think allowing uncertainty is the same as lying, especially as a DM. When people try things in real life they never know absolutely if they will work, even if there wasn't really a chance of failure. I think it's fine to let the players be uncertain if they will succeed or not, even if you are certain that they will or won't.

[Knaight]

This is incredibly context dependant. Buying off a mercenary is an entirely different kettle of fish than convincing someone to give up a mission of revenge against you personally that they've been at for decades. The general easy-hard DCs apply, with the scale stretched upwards. A formula of so me sort is just going to produce bizarre results.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

The whole Firefly thing where Mal hires Jayne has its place. It's fun and can be a pivotal moment for a team. Hard to set a DC though. In fact, I fudged a roll and just let it happen in a game recently. Because it was fun, the role play was clever and awesome and the fight wasn't going to really do anything for the story anyhow. Mechanically the party got to keep some resources that would have been spent fighting nooks due to being creative and invested. Seemed fair and promoted story over dice.

The mooks ran off first chance they got which kept the party from having minions. They weren't going to fight, but they hadn't become loyal.

This.

Story.

[Sigreid]

But what if you make an offer he can't refuse?

Every man has his price...

This is not necessarily true. People can become so angry that all they want out of life is to cave your head in. Likewise, a true believer who thinks it's their divine duty to cave your head in can't be dissuaded without evidence that divine will has changed.