Humanoid Shape for Race Requirements ?

[Gruftzwerg]

Can a Dragonfire Adept with the "Humanoid Shape" invocation qualify for Recaster Prc, which requires to be a Changeling?

If it works, does he need to be in the Changeling-shape to access his Prc abilities?

edit to further clarify:
I intend to enter Recaster as DA/Sorcerer who is in Changeling form with Humanoid Shape.

[Tiri]

Humanoid Shape is based on Change Shape, which changes neither type nor subtype. You need the Changeling subtype to qualify for Changeling things.

So, no, it doesn't work.

[eggynack]

Humanoid Shape is based on Change Shape, which changes neither type nor subtype. You need the Changeling subtype to qualify for Changeling things.
There is no changeling subtype. Changelings have the shapechanger subtype, which isn't required for stuff. So, maybe.

[Tiri]

I forgot about that. Still, probably no, since you're not actually a changeling.

[Gruftzwerg]

Humanoid Shape is based on Change Shape, which changes neither type nor subtype. You need the Changeling subtype to qualify for Changeling things.

So, no, it doesn't work.

Sure about that?
I thought the requirement is only: "Race: Changeling" and not "Type: Humanoid (Shapechanger)".

Sure, from a pure logical point of view, I would agree with you. But 3.5 RAW has not much of that kind of logic..^^
So again, is it (ab)usable? Or is there any kind of rule, that I need to have the right "Type" to count as the right "Race", which I am not aware of ?

[Tiri]

Well, ok, here's the thing. In 3.5, whether or not you are a member of a race is determined by whether you have that race's subtype, if it has one. If it doesn't, like Changeling, then you have to be that race to qualify as it.

I think Polymorph also works, since you get racial traits with it and change your type, but Change Shape isn't Polymorph. It just changes your shape.

[Andezzar]

Well, ok, here's the thing. In 3.5, whether or not you are a member of a race is determined by whether you have that race's subtype, if it has one. If it doesn't, like Changeling, then you have to be that race to qualify as it.No. Race, type and subtype are three distinct properties. Having or changing one has no impact on the others.

[Gruftzwerg]

No. Race, type and subtype are three distinct properties. Having or changing one has no impact on the others.

Getting more confused here now. So what does that mean regarding to my question?

Is "Race Requirement" described anywhere where I can read rules about it?

[Zanos]

Is "Race Requirement" described anywhere where I can read rules about it?
That's the crux of the issue. It isn't really described anywhere what you need to be considered X race. Humans certainly count as Humans, but what about elves who Alter Self? Polymorph? Polymorph any Object? Reincarnate?

I doubt rulings on any of these things qualifying you as your new race will be consistent.

[Andezzar]

Neither alter self nor polymorph qualify. Neither of those changes your race. They give you a new form and Polymorph changes type and subtypes, nothing more nothing less.

The original ability change shape does not change the race either.

[supersonic29]

That's the crux of the issue. It isn't really described anywhere what you need to be considered X race. Humans certainly count as Humans, but what about elves who Alter Self? Polymorph? Polymorph any Object? Reincarnate?

I doubt rulings on any of these things qualifying you as your new race will be consistent.


Neither alter self nor polymorph qualify. Neither of those changes your race. They give you a new form and Polymorph changes type and subtypes, nothing more nothing less.

The original ability change shape does not change the race either.

Okay, but now I'm curious. What happens if you are reincarnated with levels of a prestige class that required you to be your former race?

[Andezzar]

Okay, but now I'm curious. What happens if you are reincarnated with levels of a prestige class that required you to be your former race?Unless it is a PrC from CArc or CW, nothing. There is no rule that removes abilities granted by PrCs outside of those two books. In all other books you only need to qualify before taking the first level in a PrC. There are no requirements for taking additional levels or keeping the levels and abilities you have.

I am to lazy to check if those books even have PrCs with racial requirements. If there are check the respective rules for what is removed (they differ).

[Tiri]

No. Race, type and subtype are three distinct properties. Having or changing one has no impact on the others.

Yes, but having the subtype of a race lets you count as that race for prerequisites.

Also, there are racial PRCs in those books. CWar especially.

[Andezzar]

Yes, but having the subtype of a race lets you count as that race for prerequisites.Please show me that rule.