Optimize this Feat #13: Cards over Swords from Three-Dragon Ante web supplement

[daremetoidareyo]

I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects.

What is this?
So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change.


All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! The guest judge will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.

Point Allocation Rubric
The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 pt

If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

BIAS
I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

Other information
All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.
This week's Feat is from the Luck of the Draw - Web supplement to Three Dragon Ante: (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060919a) Cards over Swords

This feat is available online: simply google three dragon ante luck of the draw raven and click on the pdf.

I have a mirror here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxTt5u6rmj76NW9COFhWREl6MkU)

This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on October 9th

Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy): VAZ
Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473047-Optimize-this-Feat-2-Conductivity-from-Unearthed-Arcana&highlight=Conductivity): ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474225-Optimize-this-feat-3-Swim-by-attack-from-Stormwrack): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476019-Optimize-this-Feat-4-Contagious-Paralysis-from-Libris-Mortis) WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477681-Optimize-this-Feat-5-Hammer-and-Piton-From-Dungeonscape) Zetapup
Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479041-Optimize-this-Feat-6-Residual-Rebound-from-Unearthed-Arcana&p=20493024#post20493024) ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480323-Optimize-this-Feat-7-Mark-of-Phlegethos-from-Fiendish-Codex-2-Tot9H): Darrin
Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492298-Optimize-this-Feat-8-Seelie-Court-Noble-Kelir-(web)): Jowgen
Optimize this Feat 9: Animal Friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493792-Optimize-this-Feat-9-Races-of-Faerun-s-Animal-friends-p-161): Troacctid
Optimize this Feat 10A: Primary Contact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round&p=21075488#post21075488): Jormengand & WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 10B lightning round: Einhander from PHB2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round): Zaq

Optimize this Feat 11: Supremely Confident from Dragon #335 p.88 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496731-Optimize-this-feat-11-Supremely-Confident-from-Dragon-335-p-88&p=21076906): To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat 12: Spirit Sense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498138-Optimize-this-feat-12-Spirit-Sense-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-124) from Heroes of Horror p.124: Jormengand
Optimize this Feat #13: Cards Over Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501738-Optimize-this-Feat-13-Cards-over-Swords-from-Three-Dragon-Ante-web-supplement&p=21301495#post21301495) from the Three Dragon Ante Web Supplement: Darrin & Morcleon

Upcoming Schedule:

Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
Optimize this feat #14: Dual Plane summons from Dragon #313 with guest judge _________????
Optimize this feat #15 Formation expert from complete warrior p.110
Optimize this feat #16 Bloodspiked charger from PHB2
Optimize this feat #17: Betrayal of the spirit linked from Dragon #336 with guest judge _____????
Optimize this feat #18: Truebond from DMG2

[daremetoidareyo]

CARDS OVER SWORDS You can resolve conflicts using Three-Dragon Ante instead of combat.
Prerequisite: 1st level character, Diplomacy 4 ranks.
Benefit: When faced with a potential combat against a single foe with an Intelligence score of at least 10, you can propose resolving the conflict via a card game— provided that the foe does not consider you a personal enemy. To do so, make a Diplomacy check as a swift action. If you successfully change the foe’s attitude toward you from hostile to indifferent, it agrees to play the proposed game in lieu of combat, even if it has never played the game or even heard of it. No retry is allowed against the same foe for a given conflict. The winner of the card game wins the dispute; the loser gives up all equipment and wealth on her person and withdraws. You must allow the foe to go free and unharmed at the end of the game. Any attempt to attack it reopens the dispute and precipitates combat. However, you can question the foe as if you defeated it in combat, and you can advise the authorities as to its whereabouts after it has left. In a sense, the foe has earned a head start on the authorities for playing the game with you.

According to the Web supplement write-up:

Luck of the Draw provides additional rules for using the game within the confines of a D&D session, plus new feats that relate to games of chance and a short adventure to demonstrate how to incorporate all these elements into a game session.

Clause bolded because it implies that these feats don't necessarily have to apply to specifically three dragon ante. And if that is the case, you can work around having to play a card game instead of resolving the game with a skill check.

Clause italicized because it is written in such a way to get players to apply the use of these feats to things other than three dragon ante. Look at the text of the feat, it only names three dragon ante in the stub: the feat applies to any card game!

This is the reading on how we shall proceed.

5 Bonus points to anyone who can find skill check rules to resolve games of chance within any book other than three dragon ante associated supplements

[Âmesang]

For a specific example, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk has rules for "dragonchess."

To resolve a dragonchess game, both players make an opposed Profession (gambler) check. Characters who have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate receive a cumulative +2 synergy bonus on this check for each appropriate skill. Khellek accepts challenges only from those who own their own set of dragonchess pieces, which can be purchased from the local general store at a price of 5 gp.
…also does anyone else have the urge to read/watch Yu-Gi-Oh! and/or play Final Fantasy VIII?

[Doc_Maynot]

Just looking at the feat, which would be already perfect for a Bard, there is the Cheat spell in Spell Compendium, that gives you the ability "Whenever a dice roll is made to determine the outcome of the game, a character under the effect of this spell can demand a reroll and take the better of the two rolls." And it applies to card games as well so I assume it can work on the skill check to resolve the game.


…also does anyone else have the urge to read/watch Yu-Gi-Oh! and/or play Final Fantasy VIII?

Personally, I'm feeling Gwent or Hearthstone, but I suppose I could do some Triple Triad.

Also, card games on animated chariots anybody?

[daremetoidareyo]

For a specific example, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk has rules for "dragonchess."

…also does anyone else have the urge to read/watch Yu-Gi-Oh! and/or play Final Fantasy VIII?

Nice find. 1 point. Maybe that is extrapolating a core rule book rule associated with profession: gambler skill checks. Anyone know what book has profession gambler?


Just looking at the feat, which would be already perfect for a Bard, there is the Cheat spell in Spell Compendium, that gives you the ability "Whenever a dice roll is made to determine the outcome of the game, a character under the effect of this spell can demand a reroll and take the better of the two rolls." And it applies to card games as well so I assume it can work on the skill check to resolve the game.

Personally, I'm feeling Gwent or Hearthstone, but I suppose I could do some Triple Triad.

Also, card games on animated chariots anybody?

cheat spell 1 point

[Bucky]

Being able to make a Diplomacy check in combat as a Swift action at no penalty is really, really good. And if you manage to swing them all the way to Friendly, you don't need to play the card game. If the feat's allowed, it should be standard on Bard Diplomancers because it can end fights practically for free.


The feat also doesn't restrict your allies' behavior. You can start dealing cards while your allies buff up, and they smash the enemy before the game ends.

[daremetoidareyo]

Oh man, I just found the jackpot:


Second, the gamblers themselves may participate in a game that incorporates both skill and chance. Most card games fall into this category. To resolve this sort of gambling, have the participants make a skill check every 10 minutes. The relevant skill is Profession (card gambler) for most card games and another Profession skill for games you invent yourself. The competitor with the highest check result wins an amount set by the DM: a typical pot for 10 minutes of play, depending on the wealth of the competitors and the circumstances of the game. The losing competitors lose as much as the winner receives, divided among themselves. In a five-person card game, for example, the winner might get 20 silver pieces after 10 minutes of play, and each of the other four players would lose 5 silver pieces.

Competitors can employ other skills to improve their chances. If the game rewards bluffing and concealed motives, a Bluff check that’s higher than everyone else’s Sense Motive check earns the bluffer a bonus on his Profession check equal to the difference between his Bluff result and the highest Sense Motive result. If the game involves easily palmed tokens such as playing cards, a competitor can cheat by making a Sleight of Hand check opposed by all the other player’s Spot checks. A successful Sleight of Hand check earns a bonus equal to the difference between the Sleight of Hand result and the highest Spot result. But unlike bluffing at cards, there’s generally a game-ending consequence for failing this Sleight of Hand check: you’ve been caught cheating.

It appears that those bluff and sleight of hand bonuses stack.

Question: how do you get your opponent to intelligence 10?

[Bucky]

Well spotted. Even Profession(Gambler) isn't enough to defend against this feat; they need Profession(Card gambler). And if that isn't obscure enough you can invent your own Profession skill to use instead. So by level 20 almost nobody can actually beat you at a no-Bluff no-token card game.

Also, I don't see any reason why you can't continue making Swift Diplomacy checks against one potential enemy while you're playing cards with another, as long as you have two decks of cards.

This feat is quickly moving into TO territory.

[Morcleon]

A thing to note is that it only works on opponents with Int 10 or higher. This can be mostly bypassed by taking Wizard 11/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4, the feats Mother Cyst, Spell Focus (transmutation), and Ability Enhancer. This allows you to cast Necrotic Empowerment which, among other things, increases your target's Int by +10, guaranteeing at least Int 11 for any creature with an Intelligence score.

To affect creatures without an Int score, you'd need to cast Polymorph Any Object to change them from [Creature] to [Creature but with Int 1], then use the above method to increase its Int to 11. (EDIT: a higher-OP method would be to take Dweomerkeeper 4 (with Alternate Source Spell and a Cleric 1 dip) to be able to cast Wish as a (Su) ability to duplicate Awaken/Awaken Undead, though Awaken Construct cannot be duplicated with Wish).

From here, obtaining a +24 on Diplomacy (hostile to indifferent) is trivial. The Cheat spell can be further optimized by taking another two levels of Wizard for 9th level spells, then having Still Spell, Silent Spell, Quicken Spell, and Innate Spell (cheat) to cast it at-will as a spell-like ability (removing the need for any components).

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm too lazy to do it, but there are other diplomancy based feats in the optimize this feat catalogue that would go with this like butter on carbs. All of them, plus undead empathy and master manipulator from PHB2 and/or silver tongue (dragon 318 updated OA)


Silver Tongue [Dragon]: You can use the Diplomacy skill (trained or untrained) to produce the following effects:
Change an NPC's attitude toward a person other than yourself : The DC is the same as if you were changing the character's attitude toward you.

Inspire love and devotion.: If you successfully improve a character's attitude toward you (only) to helpful, you can choose to cause that character to show romantic interest in you. The character thereafter seeks every opportunity to be near you and makes every effort to win your affection, within the bounds of relatively normal behavior.

Inspire hope or despair. With a successful Diplomacy check against DC 25, you fill a single target with hope or despair, as if affected by the good hope or crushing despair spells. In the case of despair, the target can negate the effect with a successful Will saving throw (DC io + 1/2 your Diplomacy ranks + your Charisma modifier).

Cause confusion: Make a Diplomacy check opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. If you beat your target's check result by 10 or more, you can cause him to become confused for round. You can use this ability as a full-round action.

[Morcleon]

I'm too lazy to do it, but there are other diplomancy based feats in the optimize this feat catalogue that would go with this like butter on carbs. all of them, plus undead empathy.

Undead empathy doesn't work with this feat, since they still need to have Int 10 or higher.

[daremetoidareyo]

Child of winter allows you to treat vermin as animals. (int 2). Fox's cunning can boost that intelligence to 6. We simply need another +4 bonus to intelligence that one can grant to others...and then we can affect vermin and animals. Thus leaving plants, constructs, and mindless undead.

[Morcleon]

A thing to note is that it only works on opponents with Int 10 or higher. This can be mostly bypassed by taking Wizard 11/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4, the feats Mother Cyst, Spell Focus (transmutation), and Ability Enhancer. This allows you to cast Necrotic Empowerment which, among other things, increases your target's Int by +10, guaranteeing at least Int 11 for any creature with an Intelligence score.

To affect creatures without an Int score, you'd need to cast Polymorph Any Object to change them from [Creature] to [Creature but with Int 1], then use the above method to increase its Int to 11. (EDIT: a higher-OP method would be to take Dweomerkeeper 4 (with Alternate Source Spell and a Cleric 1 dip) to be able to cast Wish as a (Su) ability to duplicate Awaken/Awaken Undead, though Awaken Construct cannot be duplicated with Wish).

From here, obtaining a +24 on Diplomacy (hostile to indifferent) is trivial. The Cheat spell can be further optimized by taking another two levels of Wizard for 9th level spells, then having Still Spell, Silent Spell, Quicken Spell, and Innate Spell (cheat) to cast it at-will as a spell-like ability (removing the need for any components).


Child of winter allows you to treat vermin as animals. (int 2). Fox's cunning can boost that intelligence to 6. We simply need another +4 bonus to intelligence that one can grant to others...and then we can affect vermin and animals. Thus leaving plants, constructs, and mindless undead.

Already solved the Int issue and the creature type issue.

[daremetoidareyo]

Already solved the Int issue and the creature type issue.

There are many routes to nirvana, my friend.

Plus, the idea here is to explore the totality of what this feat can be used for. Not to simply solve for a single approach. Polymorph is so versatile that it gets routinely banned.

[Jormengand]

Technically, you can invent your own card game, along the lines of "Each player draws a hand of seven cards, then I win the game", or even a game whose rules dictate certain actions must be performed by the characters.

For example:

- You walk into a combat with a powerful wizard, and either win initiative or survive his first attack.
- You use CoS to offer to play the card game Immortal Servitude.
- You explain the rules of the game: "Each player draws a hand of seven cards, then each player who isn't me does what I say and doesn't attack me, forever."
- If you make them at least indifferent, they play this game with you. ("If you successfully change the foe’s attitude toward you from hostile to indifferent, it agrees to play the proposed game in lieu of combat, even if it has never played the game or even heard of it.")
- Enemy is enslaved by RAW schenanigans. As an added bonus, diplomacy and its effects (apart from fanaticism, which isn't relevant here) are not mind-affecting.

The bit where you draw cards is to comply with the stipulation that it must be a card game. Card games causing people to do things largely unrelated to the game is not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unglued) exactly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unhinged_(Magic:_The_Gathering)) unprecedented (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_Blank_White_Cards).

[daremetoidareyo]

A gully dwarf (WHY?) rogue could combine this with the cornered rat feat for a +/-25% chance to get every opponent with intelligence 10 or above flatfooted once per encounter. It isn't great, but I honestly don't know any other way for you to activate the cornered rat feat using diplomacy. Man...what a terrible feat cornered rat is. Unless of course you challenge someone to a card match while still somehow fighting all other opponents, all at a +2 bonus!. Which would be amazing if you weren't a gully dwarf. And you would have to swift action cards over swords another opponent every round...

Also, insidious insight is a great spell to use on this feat, assuming that you can quicken it.

[Bucky]

The target doesn't need to be hostile to make the check in the first place, you just need to be in a potential combat situation. In such a case you get the benefit of an instant Diplomacy attempt, but can't start a card game.

Also, the potential combat doesn't need to be to the death, nor are the stakes in the combat relevant. Provoked someone into a duel to first blood over a handkerchief? With the power of card games you can swindle them out of their sword too!

[daremetoidareyo]

Are there any benefits for purposefully losing the match?

[Bucky]

Are there any benefits for purposefully losing the match?

There is no benefit over winning because the second half of the feat is written assuming the featholder wins. By RAW, regardless of the outcome, you can question your enemy as though they lost, and can't attack the enemy and must withdraw (but they can attack you).

[daremetoidareyo]

There is no benefit over winning because the second half of the feat is written assuming the featholder wins. By RAW, regardless of the outcome, you can question your enemy as though they lost, and can't attack the enemy and must withdraw (but they can attack you).

So a VOP acolyte of peace will give you some ratty clothes and whether or not they win the gambling match, they get to question their opponeny, as if they had lost.

"Since your such a commonplace looooser, why don't you just tell me where your boss stashed the diamonds. But considering the fact that you're a terrible opponent for any intellectual capacity, he probably didn't spend the time with you to develop a relationship stable enough to tell you anything of actual value to anyone. Because you're worthless! Sure you may have technically won, but just the way you play the game makes us all feel pity for you. Here, I'm poor as all get-out, but I have more talent at this in a single drop of my buttsweat than you do in your entire body. You obviously need my only possession, my underwear."

[daremetoidareyo]

Talis Deck (2 GP, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting). 78-card deck, similar to a tarot deck. Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue might go into more detail, but I don't have access to that book.

There are fortune-telling rules in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. This can be done with an ordinary deck of cards, a tarot deck, or a three-dragon ante deck. I'm not entirely sure if the rules make sense outside of Ravenloft, but on the other hand... hinting to the other PCs that undead villains might be plotting their demise sounds like it could be fun.

Let's talk about cards! is there any way to muck with the cards used for the game to contain effects that aren't hostile but offer some sort of advantage?

Also, what opponents can you planar bind and rob to get rich quick using this?

[Jormengand]

Hmm... you could sneak trap the soul (or symbol of X, but that's less fun) onto the cards.


The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.

[Doc_Maynot]

You set the deck, opponent draws seven cards. "Runes" "Prepared" "Guess" "Today" "?" "Who" "Explosive" By the time they sort out the cards, it is already too late, you have already failed a dispel against your own deck.

Also, Jormengand. That is devilish. Red Fel would be proud. (Red Fel Red Fel)

[Demidos]

Let's talk about cards! is there any way to muck with the cards used for the game to contain effects that aren't hostile but offer some sort of advantage?

Card Game: Deck of Many Things Pick-up!

The challenged player must choose to draw all the cards from the deck of many things. All positive effects must be deeded to or phrased in a way that benefits the challenger in a way that is detrimental to the challengee. All negative effects of the deck must be survived by the challengee. If the challengee is able to make it through the whole deck unharmed, they win...bragging rights.

What...give them a sporting chance :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

On a vaguely related side-note, I've been paying Three Dragon Ante with friends a bit recently (the D&D game was called off last two weeks, and we ended up playing TDA instead), and it's a really fun little game. I originally got given it as a birthday gift years ago, but the only time I cracked it open was to use in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft game I ran.

Worth checking out, if you can still get a copy.


Also, just have to say, what the hell were the devs thinking with this feat? Seriously? You're about to confront the BBEG at the end of the campaign, and instead of the climactic battle, some chump in the party yells "Yu-gi-oh!", beats the big bad in a card game, and steals all of his stuff while the evil overlord does some navel gazing in the corner.

http://i67.tinypic.com/33c67o4.jpg

[ImperatorV]

Also, just have to say, what the hell were the devs thinking with this feat? Seriously? You're about to confront the BBEG at the end of the campaign, and instead of the climactic battle, some chump in the party yells "Yu-hi-oh!", beats the big bad in a card game, and steals all of his stuff while the evil overlord does some navel gazing in the corner.

...Now I want to take this feat and sit on it all campaign so the DM forgets it exists, and then spring it during the climactic final battle.

[animewatcha]

There should be a pyramid necklace magic item that does alter self or disguise self or whatever it appropriate too.

[Darrin]

Let's talk about cards! is there any way to muck with the cards used for the game to contain effects that aren't hostile but offer some sort of advantage?


Outside of explosive runes you mean? I suppose sepia snake sigil isn't inherently lethal, although I'm not sure complete incapacitation would be considered non-hostile. Illusory script could be very interesting, as you could load up an entire deck of suggestions.

Contact poison or drugs spring to mind. If we want to stick to non-lethal effects:

Carrion Crawler Brain Juice (200 GP, DMG). DC 13 Paralysis/nothing.
Terinav Root (750 GP, DMG). DC 16 1d6 Dex/2d6 Dex.
Mesmer Paste (300 GP, A&EG). DC 15 Dazzled/1d4 Int.
Sleeping Weed (500 GP, A&EG). DC 13 Slowed/1d4 Dex.
Thever Paste (1500 GP, A&EG). DC 12 Nothing/Blindness.
Sasson Juice (500 GP, BoVD). DC 18 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex.
Underdark Blight (300 GP, DotU). DC 20 1 SR/1 SR.

Kammarth (80 GP, Lords of Darkness) is of course interesting... DC 10 is aggravatingly low, and the primary/secondary effects are expeditious retreat/+2 Dex bonus, but if the target takes more than one dose in an 8-hour period, they take 1d4 damage and are paralyzed for 2d4 minutes *no save*. Four or more doses and the target takes 4d4 damage and is paralyzed for 2d4 hours.

If you really want to kill something... put about 300 applications of blister oil (Races of Stone) on the cards. DC 15 isn't all that impressive, but assuming the game lasts at least two minutes (20 rounds), odds are good your target will roll '1' eventually.



Also, what opponents can you planar bind and rob to get rich quick using this?

Well, I was reading through the fortune telling rules in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and they don't look all that useful for anything outside of that adventure, but it did occur to me...

Strahd owns an awful lot of Ravenloft. If he had to give you all his possessions...

PC: "Hey guys... funny story. Turns out I now own a demiplane..."

As far as planar binding goes, seems to me you could call up a balor and get a +1 flaming whip and a +1 vorpal longsword pretty darned easily.

Hrrm. If a Trumpet Archon loses his trumpet in a card game, that's not the same as "stolen" now, is it? Make sure you ask him to turn it into a +4 greatsword before he antes up.

Githyanki 9th level or higher carry around silver swords. Night hags have heartstones, and hag covens have hag eyes.

Actually, I think planar (former) ally might be better. Ask the outsider to perform some task, negotiate the price, and after you've paid the price, say, "Oh, by the way... just before you go, would you like to play a card game?" Win and get all your money back.

[Red Fel]

Also, Jormengand. That is devilish. Red Fel would be proud. (Red Fel Red Fel)

Hm?


Hmm... you could sneak trap the soul (or symbol of X, but that's less fun) onto the cards.

Huh. I think I saw that episode of Fairy Tail.

Yep. It was this guy. He did that.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/fairytailfanon/images/c/cd/Shou.jpg

[Bucky]

Strahd owns an awful lot of Ravenloft. If he had to give you all his possessions...

Too bad you can only take wealth the victim is carrying.


Actually, I think planar (former) ally might be better. Ask the outsider to perform some task, negotiate the price, and after you've paid the price, say, "Oh, by the way... just before you go, would you like to play a card game?" Win and get all your money back.

...and you can only use the feat in a potential combat situation.




Kammarth (80 GP, Lords of Darkness) is of course interesting... DC 10 is aggravatingly low, and the primary/secondary effects are expeditious retreat/+2 Dex bonus, but if the target takes more than one dose in an 8-hour period, they take 1d4 damage and are paralyzed for 2d4 minutes *no save*. Four or more doses and the target takes 4d4 damage and is paralyzed for 2d4 hours.


Good call; being paralyzed makes it difficult to win a card game.

[WeaselGuy]

...Now I want to take this feat and sit on it all campaign so the DM forgets it exists, and then spring it during the climactic final battle.

Yes. All of the yes.

[Bucky]

BBEG: Why does this card say "Give Bucky a +2 flaming shortsword or lose the game?"
Bucky: Oh, that's part of the standard rules.
BBEG: But what if you drew it?
Bucky: Then I'd give it to myself, duh.

[neriractor]

...and you can only use the feat in a potential combat situation.

you are a PC, if you can´t annoy a servant of your deity until it beats you up you have failed at your job. (you could also attack it and use your swift action to start the game)

[daremetoidareyo]

you are a PC, if you can´t annoy a servant of your deity until it beats you up you have failed at your job. (you could also attack it and use your swift action to start the game)

Brilliant. Just the thing to complete the wistimidation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20199016&postcount=61) build. Knock an opponent down 6 wisdom and then start it all over again.

[Thurbane]

you are a PC, if you can´t annoy a servant of your deity until it beats you up you have failed at your job. (you could also attack it and use your swift action to start the game)

Aleax? :smalltongue:

Actually, there's a point. If you "defeated" an Aleax using this feat, would you count as "defeating it in battle"? And would you gain an exact duplicate set of your own (magical) gear? The Aleax description says that it and all of it's gear vanish of it's "destroyed" - well, technically it wasn't destroyed, it was beaten in a card game - where it has to give you all of it's gear and walk away. :smallwink:

Although as per the feat text "...provided that the foe does not consider you a personal enemy". I'm assuming a divine construct created for the sole purpose of slaying you probably would consider you a personal enemy. :smallamused:

[daremetoidareyo]

Aleax? :smalltongue:

Actually, there's a point. If you "defeated" an Aleax using this feat, would you count as "defeating it in battle"? And would you gain an exact duplicate set of your own (magical) gear? The Aleax description says that it and all of it's gear vanish of it's "destroyed" - well, technically it wasn't destroyed, it was beaten in a card game - where it has to give you all of it's gear and walk away. :smallwink:

Although as per the feat text "...provided that the foe does not consider you a personal enemy". I'm assuming a divine construct created for the sole purpose of slaying you probably would consider you a personal enemy. :smallamused:

But is it the constuct's will to kill you or is it the gods? All I'm saying is that perhaps the aleax is only a diplomacy check away from thinking that you're a pretty rad guy and that this whole deific vendetta thing was the god's idea.

[daremetoidareyo]

Verdant prince (MM4) drops 15k worth of collected magic items per defeat. You could...make a verdant prince farm? Set up giant hunting grounds near big planar trade routes.


"Dryads or nymphs who mate with verdant princes, or who are themselves evil, sometimes give birth to verdant princes."

Kidknap dryads and nymphs, bind them into place in your farm. Maybe start with helms of opposite alignment to make them evil and then kidknap satyrs (who rarely say no to nymphs advances) to develop your basal stock of verdant princes. Verdant princes become adults in a single season, so you can "harvest" them 4 times a year. Pimp out your survival skill or divinations to find him after three months of him collecting loot for you.


----
Taunting Haunt from MM5. Probably the only way to defeat him first try.

Encore (Ex) Fueled by anger and bitterness, a taunting haunt is difficult to send to its final rest. A taunting haunt that is destroyed by any means returns to existence after 24 hours. These creatures can be driven away only when defeated in a battle of wits or put to rest only when their final wishes are met.

-----

Steelwings Razorfeathers MM5:

Razorfeathers are ruined when used in a steelwing’s attacks or razorfeather shield, but characters who defeat a steelwing in combat on the Material Plane can remove 350 razorfeathers (worth 50 gp each; see For Player Characters).

------

Any other critters that drop stuff when they are "defeated"???

[Prime32]

Actually, there's a point. If you "defeated" an Aleax using this feat, would you count as "defeating it in battle"?Take a leaf from Touhou and invent a form of duelling where cards are used to restrict how you can fight.

[Thurbane]

Any other critters that drop stuff when they are "defeated"???

I seem to recall a monster in Frostburn that carries an unusually high amount of magic loot for it's CR, let's have a look...

There's Midgard Dwarf (CR 5) with +2 chain shirt, +2 battleaxe, +1 light crossbow, and +1 ring of protection

...but the one I was actually trying to remember is Winterspawn (CR 3): +2 keen icy burst longsword, +2 returning icy burst javelin, and +3 scale mail. Now these items melt into vapor unless the Winterspawn makes a Fort save after it's destroyed, but you're not destroying it, are you? :smallbiggrin:

[daremetoidareyo]

I seem to recall a monster in Frostburn that carries an unusually high amount of magic loot for it's CR, let's have a look...

There's Midgard Dwarf (CR 5) with +2 chain shirt, +2 battleaxe, +1 light crossbow, and +1 ring of protection

...but the one I was actually trying to remember is Winterspawn (CR 3): +2 keen icy burst longsword, +2 returning icy burst javelin, and +3 scale mail. Now these items melt into vapor unless the Winterspawn makes a Fort save after it's destroyed, but you're not destroying it, are you? :smallbiggrin:

"Guys, We have to go hunt down that red dragon!"

"OK. We need to make a pit stop to play cards with the winterspawn in the middle of a frostnado"

"Makes sense."

[Bucky]

Take a leaf from Touhou and invent a form of duelling where cards are used to restrict how you can fight.

Unfortunately, any attack ends the game and starts combat, even if the attack is required by the rules of the game.

[daremetoidareyo]

Unfortunately, any attack ends the game and starts combat, even if the attack is required by the rules of the game.

This is a good point. But attacks for the opponent's allies that redirected towards your card opponent are not your attacks per se.



Level
Class
Feats




1


martial rogue
combat expertise (bonus), good karma, (human) advantageous avoidance




2


monk (cobra strike)
dodge (Bonus)




3


monk (cobra strike)
mobility (bonus), cards over swords




4


martial rogue 2
combat reflexes (bonus)




5


martial rogue 3






6


fighter 1
deceptive dodge (bonus), combat panache




7


fighter 2
gnome tunnel acrobatics




8


martial rogue 4
Elusive target




9


Fortune’s Friend
goad/travel devotion




10


Fortune’s Friend
Unbelievable luck




11


Fortune’s Friend






12


Fortune’s Friend
Sly Fortune, feat




13


Fortune’s Friend






14










15










16










17










18










19










20











Level

Class

Feat





1
Martial rogue

sacred vow (1), vow of poverty (b), combat expertise(b), nymphs kiss (b)





2
cobra strike monk

vow of nonviolence (b), dodge





3
cobra strike monk

advantageous avoidance (3), mobility (b)





4
martial rogue

defender of the homeland (CoV) (b), combat reflexes (b)





5
martial rogue








6
fighter

deceptive dodge, trickery devotion, vow of peace





7
fighter

gnome tunnel acrobatics





8
marshal rogue

elusive target, servant of the heavens (b)





9
Fortunes friend

good karma





10
Fortunes friend

exalted feat, make your own luck





11
Fortunes friend








12
Fortunes friend

spring attack, unbelievable luck, exalted feat





13
Fortunes friend








14
fighter








15
fighter

weapon focus, alertness





16
devoted defender








17
Jaunter








18
Jaunter

combat panache





19
Jaunter








20
Jaunter








elusive target, gnome tunnel tactics, combat panache, deceptive dodge are four opportunities to make your opponents attack each other. Also, consider somehow fitting feign weakness in there. That allows a bluff check to precipitate an attack of opportunity that you can reroute towards your opponent.

[Bucky]

By RAW, any attempt by anyone to attack your opponent restarts combat.

Also, Cards over Swords is 1st level only, so those builds need adjustment.

[Thurbane]

The wording in the feat is odd.

Compare this:


Prerequisite: 1st level character, Diplomacy 4 ranks

To this:


Special: This feat may only be taken at 1st level.

...the language is a bit different.

[Jormengand]

All that means is that we need it as a bonus feat, so we can ignore the prerequisites (otherwise you lose the ability to use the feat at 2nd level, which is no fun.) There are literally many ways to do that, so we should be fine.

[Troacctid]

It just means you need to be at least 1st level. You don't lose it at 2nd level for the same reason you don't lose Leadership at 7th level or Weapon Finesse at +2 BAB.

[daremetoidareyo]

It just means you need to be at least 1st level. You don't lose it at 2nd level for the same reason you don't lose Leadership at 7th level or Weapon Finesse at +2 BAB.

That's how I read it.

[Venger]

Any other critters that drop stuff when they are "defeated"???

Always the balor. They come with those expensive swords and whips. Plus this is a handy way to avoid his death throes ability.

[animewatcha]

There a way to apply katana chucker build to greatswords?

Hecatoncheires has 100 of them.

[daremetoidareyo]

Contest is over. I will begin combing through for point allocation tonight. in the meantime, the new optimize this feat is up: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503445-Optimize-this-Feat-14-Dual-Plane-Summons-from-Dragon-313

[daremetoidareyo]

Being able to make a Diplomacy check in combat as a Swift action at no penalty is really, really good. And if you manage to swing them all the way to Friendly, you don't need to play the card game. If the feat's allowed, it should be standard on Bard Diplomancers because it can end fights practically for free.

The feat also doesn't restrict your allies' behavior. You can start dealing cards while your allies buff up, and they smash the enemy before the game ends.

agreed. Allies being jerks: 1 point


Well spotted. Even Profession(Gambler) isn't enough to defend against this feat; they need Profession(Card gambler). And if that isn't obscure enough you can invent your own Profession skill to use instead. So by level 20 almost nobody can actually beat you at a no-Bluff no-token card game.

Also, I don't see any reason why you can't continue making Swift Diplomacy checks against one potential enemy while you're playing cards with another, as long as you have two decks of cards.

This feat is quickly moving into TO territory.

Profession analysis + multiple decks: 1 point +1 point of clever


A thing to note is that it only works on opponents with Int 10 or higher. This can be mostly bypassed by taking Wizard 11/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4, the feats Mother Cyst, Spell Focus (transmutation), and Ability Enhancer. This allows you to cast Necrotic Empowerment which, among other things, increases your target's Int by +10, guaranteeing at least Int 11 for any creature with an Intelligence score.

To affect creatures without an Int score, you'd need to cast Polymorph Any Object to change them from [Creature] to [Creature but with Int 1], then use the above method to increase its Int to 11. (EDIT: a higher-OP method would be to take Dweomerkeeper 4 (with Alternate Source Spell and a Cleric 1 dip) to be able to cast Wish as a (Su) ability to duplicate Awaken/Awaken Undead, though Awaken Construct cannot be duplicated with Wish).

From here, obtaining a +24 on Diplomacy (hostile to indifferent) is trivial. The Cheat spell can be further optimized by taking another two levels of Wizard for 9th level spells, then having Still Spell, Silent Spell, Quicken Spell, and Innate Spell (cheat) to cast it at-will as a spell-like ability (removing the need for any components).

Stub with feats: 10 points (9 for stub +1 for beating the 10 int problem)


Technically, you can invent your own card game, along the lines of "Each player draws a hand of seven cards, then I win the game", or even a game whose rules dictate certain actions must be performed by the characters.

For example:

- You walk into a combat with a powerful wizard, and either win initiative or survive his first attack.
- You use CoS to offer to play the card game Immortal Servitude.
- You explain the rules of the game: "Each player draws a hand of seven cards, then each player who isn't me does what I say and doesn't attack me, forever."
- If you make them at least indifferent, they play this game with you. ("If you successfully change the foe’s attitude toward you from hostile to indifferent, it agrees to play the proposed game in lieu of combat, even if it has never played the game or even heard of it.")
- Enemy is enslaved by RAW schenanigans. As an added bonus, diplomacy and its effects (apart from fanaticism, which isn't relevant here) are not mind-affecting.

The bit where you draw cards is to comply with the stipulation that it must be a card game. Card games causing people to do things largely unrelated to the game is not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unglued) exactly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unhinged_(Magic:_The_Gathering)) unprecedented (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_Blank_White_Cards).

Jormengand: 1 point for noticing the card game can suck, 1 point for the further analysis. 1000 blank white cards looks like a fun game.


The target doesn't need to be hostile to make the check in the first place, you just need to be in a potential combat situation. In such a case you get the benefit of an instant Diplomacy attempt, but can't start a card game.

Also, the potential combat doesn't need to be to the death, nor are the stakes in the combat relevant. Provoked someone into a duel to first blood over a handkerchief? With the power of card games you can swindle them out of their sword too!

There is no benefit over winning because the second half of the feat is written assuming the featholder wins. By RAW, regardless of the outcome, you can question your enemy as though they lost, and can't attack the enemy and must withdraw (but they can attack you).

rules parsing: 2 points +1 point cleverness bonus


Hmm... you could sneak trap the soul (or symbol of X, but that's less fun) onto the cards.

cleverness. 1 point.

You set the deck, opponent draws seven cards. "Runes" "Prepared" "Guess" "Today" "?" "Who" "Explosive" By the time they sort out the cards, it is already too late, you have already failed a dispel against your own deck.


1 point: explosive runes


Card Game: Deck of Many Things Pick-up!

The challenged player must choose to draw all the cards from the deck of many things. All positive effects must be deeded to or phrased in a way that benefits the challenger in a way that is detrimental to the challengee. All negative effects of the deck must be survived by the challengee. If the challengee is able to make it through the whole deck unharmed, they win...bragging rights.

What...give them a sporting chance :smallbiggrin:

Agreed for the sporting chance: 1 point



Also, just have to say, what the hell were the devs thinking with this feat? Seriously? You're about to confront the BBEG at the end of the campaign, and instead of the climactic battle, some chump in the party yells "Yu-gi-oh!", beats the big bad in a card game, and steals all of his stuff while the evil overlord does some navel gazing in the corner.


What a mean thing to do to a DM. 1 point.


Outside of explosive runes you mean? I suppose sepia snake sigil isn't inherently lethal, although I'm not sure complete incapacitation would be considered non-hostile. Illusory script could be very interesting, as you could load up an entire deck of suggestions.

Contact poison or drugs spring to mind. If we want to stick to non-lethal effects:

Carrion Crawler Brain Juice (200 GP, DMG). DC 13 Paralysis/nothing.
Terinav Root (750 GP, DMG). DC 16 1d6 Dex/2d6 Dex.
Mesmer Paste (300 GP, A&EG). DC 15 Dazzled/1d4 Int.
Sleeping Weed (500 GP, A&EG). DC 13 Slowed/1d4 Dex.
Thever Paste (1500 GP, A&EG). DC 12 Nothing/Blindness.
Sasson Juice (500 GP, BoVD). DC 18 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex.
Underdark Blight (300 GP, DotU). DC 20 1 SR/1 SR.

Kammarth (80 GP, Lords of Darkness) is of course interesting... DC 10 is aggravatingly low, and the primary/secondary effects are expeditious retreat/+2 Dex bonus, but if the target takes more than one dose in an 8-hour period, they take 1d4 damage and are paralyzed for 2d4 minutes *no save*. Four or more doses and the target takes 4d4 damage and is paralyzed for 2d4 hours.

If you really want to kill something... put about 300 applications of blister oil (Races of Stone) on the cards. DC 15 isn't all that impressive, but assuming the game lasts at least two minutes (20 rounds), odds are good your target will roll '1' eventually.

Well, I was reading through the fortune telling rules in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and they don't look all that useful for anything outside of that adventure, but it did occur to me...

Strahd owns an awful lot of Ravenloft. If he had to give you all his possessions...

PC: "Hey guys... funny story. Turns out I now own a demiplane..."

As far as planar binding goes, seems to me you could call up a balor and get a +1 flaming whip and a +1 vorpal longsword pretty darned easily.

Hrrm. If a Trumpet Archon loses his trumpet in a card game, that's not the same as "stolen" now, is it? Make sure you ask him to turn it into a +4 greatsword before he antes up.

Githyanki 9th level or higher carry around silver swords. Night hags have heartstones, and hag covens have hag eyes.

Actually, I think planar (former) ally might be better. Ask the outsider to perform some task, negotiate the price, and after you've paid the price, say, "Oh, by the way... just before you go, would you like to play a card game?" Win and get all your money back.

Dang!
sepia snake sigil 1 point.
Contact poison (or perhaps...an entire deck of poison spell explosive runes) 1 point.
Generous listing of contact poisons of note: 1 point.
Drugs: 1 point.
Kammarth: 1 point.
Blister oil + savefail fishing: 1 point.
Deed to ravenloft: 1 point. +1 extravagance point.
planar bind/ally: 1 point
List of enriching critters: 1 point.


Aleax? :smalltongue:

Actually, there's a point. If you "defeated" an Aleax using this feat, would you count as "defeating it in battle"? And would you gain an exact duplicate set of your own (magical) gear? The Aleax description says that it and all of it's gear vanish of it's "destroyed" - well, technically it wasn't destroyed, it was beaten in a card game - where it has to give you all of it's gear and walk away. :smallwink:

Although as per the feat text "...provided that the foe does not consider you a personal enemy". I'm assuming a divine construct created for the sole purpose of slaying you probably would consider you a personal enemy. :smallamused:

1 point if you can combine mindwipe with this approach


I seem to recall a monster in Frostburn that carries an unusually high amount of magic loot for it's CR, let's have a look...

There's Midgard Dwarf (CR 5) with +2 chain shirt, +2 battleaxe, +1 light crossbow, and +1 ring of protection

...but the one I was actually trying to remember is Winterspawn (CR 3): +2 keen icy burst longsword, +2 returning icy burst javelin, and +3 scale mail. Now these items melt into vapor unless the Winterspawn makes a Fort save after it's destroyed, but you're not destroying it, are you? :smallbiggrin:

2 more points.


Unfortunately, any attack ends the game and starts combat, even if the attack is required by the rules of the game.

Rules clarification: 1 point


There a way to apply katana chucker build to greatswords?

Hecatoncheires has 100 of them.

Disgustingly beautiful. 1 point.

[daremetoidareyo]

Amesang: 1
Doc_Maynot: 2
Bucky: 7
Morcleon: 10
Jormengand: 3
Demidos: 1
Thurbane: 4
Darrin:10
Animewatcha: 1

It appears that we have an OtF first: A tie.

Looks like Darrin and Morcleon will have to share half of their names highlighted in a Bolded Rich Red Palantino Linotype.

The winners of Optimize this Feat #13: Cards over Swords are Darrin & Morcleon.

[LordOfCain]

Amesang: 1
Doc_Maynot: 2
Bucky: 7
Morcleon: 10
Jormengand: 3
Demidos: 1
Thurbane: 4
Darrin:10
Animewatcha: 1

It appears that we have an OtF first: A tie.

Looks like Darrin and Morcleon will have to share half of their names highlighted in a Bolded Rich Red Palantino Linotype.

The winners of Optimize this Feat #13: Cards over Swords are Darrin & Morcleon.
Darleon? not enough characters

[daremetoidareyo]

Darleon? not enough characters

The folks gracious enough to participate deserve their whole name printed out. So I'm just splitting the award. Unless Darleon becomes a dvati type dualistic being and demands recognition.

[daremetoidareyo]

just for completeness, I just found this as I consolidated my Bluff skill guide: From Cityscape p.44

Games: As many bar games exist as bars. Regardless of the
game, using magic to influence the outcome is seen as cheating.
Games of Skill: In some taverns, a card game known as Three-
Dragon Ante is popular. Others use chesslike boardgames to test
players’ prowess.
To determine the winner of a game of skill, choose the most
relevant skill for the main check. For many card games, it’s Bluff.
For a boardgame such as chess, Knowledge (history) might be
more relevant. Then choose two other skills that matter, but are
clearly secondary. Sense Motive, Bluff, and a Knowledge skill are
good choices. A character with at least 5 ranks in either of the
secondary skills gains a +2 bonus on the main skill check (or +4 if
she has 5 ranks in both). Then all participants attempt opposed
skill checks.
As an exception to the usual rules, a character can use a Knowledge
skill untrained if it’s the relevant skill for a game, as long as
someone takes the time beforehand to explain the rules to her.