Buffer Bard needs more to do?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically I'm designing a Bard character whose focused around buffing the group.

Currently it's at level 1, Kitsune Race.

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 18

Feat: Skill Focus (Oratory) Improved Initiative

And the only complaint I really have right now is that other than his music and limited spells he has relatively little to do outside of shooting his bow. So I was wondering if there were something else I could do to give him some sort of team buffer feature when he isn't doing one of those.

[CharonsHelper]

Spellcasting or attacking are kind of the two things to do in all of Pathfinder. :P

Since your attacking is weak, you could build an Aid-another build. Eventually you could get a Banner of the Ancient Kings for +2 morale bonus to your buddies all of the time.

[Mordaedil]

Start singing about the battle.

[weckar]

Start singing about the battle.Like a sports commentator? I like it. You already have oratory bagged anyway.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Spellcasting or attacking are kind of the two things to do in all of Pathfinder. :P

Since your attacking is weak, you could build an Aid-another build. Eventually you could get a Banner of the Ancient Kings for +2 morale bonus to your buddies all of the time.

I probably should have worded the question better. XD
How can I make my attacks more useful? Not in a higher damage or attack roll manner, but in a way it helps out the rest of the party?


Like a sports commentator? I like it. You already have oratory bagged anyway.

And over here we have a witty comment!
Yes sirre! And it seems to be making the OP laugh!

[Barstro]

I probably should have worded the question better. XD
How can I make my attacks more useful? Not in a higher damage or attack roll manner, but in a way it helps out the rest of the party?

You can have your attacks actions cause some sort of status effect. Perhaps Dazzling Display is up your alley.

You can take a level of Witch and spend the rest of the fight using the Evil Eye Hex (Works for one round if the save is made, and you can keep applying it)

[Geddy2112]

I mean, you perform every combat, and probably cast a spell or two, then bow. You are lucky that at level 1 you are not onto your weapon by the second, or possibly third, round.
At level 1, your actions in combat will quickly resort to using a weapon, regardless of class. That said, combat won't last all that long; most combats won't go more than 5 rounds, most go 2-3. At this level with your charisma mod, you have 8 rounds of bardic performance, so even with 4 encounters you should be able to pop performance every round.

You probably have a buff spell or two lying around, and realize that debuffing is equal to buffing. If you trained intimidate, you have a decent chance to inflict shaken on an enemy by intimidating as a standard action. Set up a flanking position for anyone with sneak attack, or any powerful striker. You can use aid another if you can't get flanking as said above, although flanking lets you continue to fight. If you have the spell daze, you can use that every round at low levels. It becomes useless after a couple of levels, but it is very good at levels 1-3. It is a cantrip, so you can attempt it on every enemy in the combat before drawing a bow. You also get a +1 to enchantment spells for being kitsune, and with an 18 charisma a DC15 will save is going to be hard for most level 1 enemies to pass.

So, action breakdown
1. Inspire courage
2. Applicable spell
3. Intimidate/attack
4.Intimidate/attack
5. Combat over.

An aside-why do you have skill focus: oratory? Are you going to use it for versatile performance? You could take the prodigy feat and hit two performance skills with a +2, a +4 at 10+ ranks. It won't be as much of a straight boost, but it hits two performances(up to four skills) instead of one and probably better in the long run. You could take the spell focus: enchantment and greater spell focus: enchantment since you will be casting a lot of these, and you get the +1 racial bonus.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You can have your attacks actions cause some sort of status effect. Perhaps Dazzling Display is up your alley.

You can take a level of Witch and spend the rest of the fight using the Evil Eye Hex (Works for one round if the save is made, and you can keep applying it)

I checked Dazzling Display before. The combination of a Full-Round and the 30ft requirement drew me away.
The Full-Round just eats up the action economy, meanwhile Bard's aren't the best fighters. So if he's in the front lines and buffing, he's quickly going to be the main target.


That said, combat won't last all that long; most combats won't go more than 5 rounds, most go 2-3.

Not from personal experience. I normally find in the campaigns I enter that the encounters have longer combats.
Then again, maybe the campaigns are just so slow at taking turns it simply feels longer.


You probably have a buff spell or two lying around, and realize that debuffing is equal to buffing.

Currently my two 1st level spells are Grease and Saving Finale. I'm debating swapping Grease out though due to Wizard overlap.


If you trained intimidate, you have a decent chance to inflict shaken on an enemy by intimidating as a standard action. Set up a flanking position for anyone with sneak attack, or any powerful striker. You can use aid another if you can't get flanking as said above, although flanking lets you continue to fight. If you have the spell daze, you can use that every round at low levels. It becomes useless after a couple of levels, but it is very good at levels 1-3. It is a cantrip, so you can attempt it on every enemy in the combat before drawing a bow. You also get a +1 to enchantment spells for being kitsune, and with an 18 charisma a DC15 will save is going to be hard for most level 1 enemies to pass.

So, action breakdown
1. Inspire courage
2. Applicable spell
3. Intimidate/attack
4.Intimidate/attack
5. Combat over.

I'd rather avoid the flanking. It is buffing true, but like I mentioned above it could easily paint me as a target.
Also, there's overlap here too. XD Only this time with the Investigator, whose going with an +4 Multiple Aid Another gimmick.

I didn't think of Intimidate or Daze though. o_o (Doh!) (https://youtu.be/cnaeIAEp2pU?t=4s)
Those could work, thanks! :D


An aside-why do you have skill focus: oratory? Are you going to use it for versatile performance? You could take the prodigy feat and hit two performance skills with a +2, a +4 at 10+ ranks. It won't be as much of a straight boost, but it hits two performances(up to four skills) instead of one and probably better in the long run. You could take the spell focus: enchantment and greater spell focus: enchantment since you will be casting a lot of these, and you get the +1 racial bonus.

It was for versatile performance. But being honest I have been debating swapping it out for something not based on skills. Spell Focus would probably be better now that I think about it.

[Barstro]

I checked Dazzling Display before. The combination of a Full-Round and the 30ft requirement drew me away.
The Full-Round just eats up the action economy, meanwhile Bard's aren't the best fighters. So if he's in the front lines and buffing, he's quickly going to be the main target.

You said you wanted something for your PC to do. A Full-Round action is still better economy than doing nothing.
I do not understand your "front line" argument. 30 feet away is 10 feet behind the melee fighters and still able to effect 15-20 feet in front of them.

But, only you know how your fights tend to play out. I'm not arguing that Dazzling Display will work for you, just that I do not understand the relevance of your response.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You said you wanted something for your PC to do. A Full-Round action is still better economy than doing nothing.
I do not understand your "front line" argument. 30 feet away is 10 feet behind the melee fighters and still able to effect 15-20 feet in front of them.

But, only you know how your fights tend to play out. I'm not arguing that Dazzling Display will work for you, just that I do not understand the relevance of your response.

The Action Economy wouldn't be an issue early game, cause it would be all that I'm doing. The issue is later on, when the Bard does suddenly gain more things to do the feat will become useless cause there's more efficient uses of the actions, or I effectively cut of most off my other Bard abilities.

And the front line deal is that I'm still in 30ft of the enemy, that's an easy movement to attack. If not by the enemy by the fighter choosing to tank the AoO by other nearby enemies not yet engaged. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid of non-Full BAB classes being up in the front lines though.

[CharonsHelper]

You could always just grab Fencing Grace and jump into the fray yourself. Bards can get reasonably beefy since you don't have much else to spend your wealth on.

Grab a mithril kikko, a buckler and all of the magical defense gear, and your AC will end up higher than a two-handed martial's.

[Barstro]

The Action Economy wouldn't be an issue early game, cause it would be all that I'm doing. The issue is later on, when the Bard does suddenly gain more things to do the feat will become useless cause there's more efficient uses of the actions, or I effectively cut of most of my other Bard abilities.
I see your point. I take a much longer view of things. If I have a plan for levels 12 and onward, I wouldn't be concerned with lack of actions early on (or I'd buy a wand or something to tide me over). It never dawned on me that your issue was only temporary.



And the front line deal is that I'm still in 30ft of the enemy, that's an easy movement to attack. If not by the enemy by the fighter choosing to tank the AoO by other nearby enemies not yet engaged. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid of non-Full BAB classes being up in the front lines though.
If you are never in harm's way, then you are IMO just a glass cannon who is whining about being glass. Live a little; take a few hits. 1) Full BAB =/= armor, HP, or damage reduction. But, I do understand the correlation. 2) Your front line is there to protect you. Let it. 3) 30 feet or 60 feet from the front doesn't matter if you are attacked from behind or lose the surprise round. 4) Probably other stuff, but I need to get back to work.

I think you are more concerned about your PC than you need to be. If he's going to be a Buffer/De-buffer/Field-Controller, then let him be that. If he can appropriately do that in one round, pat yourself on the back and watch the rest of your team mop up the easy fight you created for them. As far as first-level; you aren't expected to be the greatest. Even the all-mighty Wizard is just a burden at that level. Flank, hope to not get hit, use the CLW wand you bought.

[Fizban]

I'd rather avoid the flanking. It is buffing true, but like I mentioned above it could easily paint me as a target.
Don't underestimate the power of full defense, you lose AoOs but it doesn't take away your threatened area so flank bonus is on. Then if they want to waste actions attacking the guy in full defense instead of the guy dealing the damage, that's a win.

Also, what's wrong with firing a ranged weapon? In my experience the bard who doesn't do anything after singing is far more annoying than the rogue who refuses to hide or flank for sneak attack and just shoots, because at least the rogue is still dealing damage.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You could always just grab Fencing Grace and jump into the fray yourself. Bards can get reasonably beefy since you don't have much else to spend your wealth on.

Grab a mithril kikko, a buckler and all of the magical defense gear, and your AC will end up higher than a two-handed martial's.

I could, just not until level 3 6 (forgot about Focus) since a Kitsune Bard only has one feat at level 1.
Definitely something I wouldn't mind working towards though if for nothing more than to keep my bases covered.

Should note normally I'd be more stingy with feats, but the Bard has such little required ones I'm fine going a bit of dippy/flexy on them. Just, no feats that'd stopped appearing period after a while like Dazzling Display.


I see your point. I take a much longer view of things. If I have a plan for levels 12 and onward, I wouldn't be concerned with lack of actions early on (or I'd buy a wand or something to tide me over). It never dawned on me that your issue was only temporary.

Yea. I probably should have clarified I'm also looking for temporary fillers, cause I'm not worried about running out of things to do later game.
Then again, Bard's spells are less than a full casters, so it could would still pop up. :/


If you are never in harm's way, then you are IMO just a glass cannon who is whining about being glass. Live a little; take a few hits. 1) Full BAB =/= armor, HP, or damage reduction. But, I do understand the correlation. 2) Your front line is there to protect you. Let it. 3) 30 feet or 60 feet from the front doesn't matter if you are attacked from behind or lose the surprise round. 4) Probably other stuff, but I need to get back to work.

I think you are more concerned about your PC than you need to be. If he's going to be a Buffer/De-buffer/Field-Controller, then let him be that. If he can appropriately do that in one round, pat yourself on the back and watch the rest of your team mop up the easy fight you created for them. As far as first-level; you aren't expected to be the greatest. Even the all-mighty Wizard is just a burden at that level. Flank, hope to not get hit, use the CLW wand you bought.

1) Basically it's the correlation I was referring to. I wasn't outright saying BAB is defence.
2) True, but taunt tactics are usually weak in Pathfinder.
3) Good Point.
4) Alright, don't stress yourself out too much. :)

Though pating myself on the back is precisely it, I don't want the Bard to be doing nothing.
But I also don't want the Bard to be dead. Cause at least a lazy (or Archer) bard can join in the next encounter.
And true, no one does truly shine at level 1.


Don't underestimate the power of full defense, you lose AoOs but it doesn't take away your threatened area so flank bonus is on. Then if they want to waste actions attacking the guy in full defense instead of the guy dealing the damage, that's a win.

Also, what's wrong with firing a ranged weapon? In my experience the bard who doesn't do anything after singing is far more annoying than the rogue who refuses to hide or flank for sneak attack and just shoots, because at least the rogue is still dealing damage.

Total Defence would work for early levels. (Doh!) (https://youtu.be/cnaeIAEp2pU?t=4s)
There's nothing really wrong with firing a ranged weapon, I'll still do it if outright starved. It's just that's when the Bard changes from support (outside of performance) and becomes a lesser damage dealer/sub-par. So I was looking for ways to make that use of time/actions better for the party.

[Black Egg]

It sounds like the OP might be falling for what I call the "Lem trap" (but see below). If a player sits down and just reads the Bard entry in the Core rulebook, they hear all about these Charisma-based features and performances, but the truth is that the vast majority of what a Bard does needs a baseline of Charisma to work...probably starting with 14 for convenience in meeting baseline casting progression. This isn't the impression that the Core rulebook leaves you with on a first read, but that's how it works out. Notice that Perform checks are referenced constantly throughout the class, but it rarely matters how high the Perform checks are. Don't obsess over it.

What I tell players considering the Bard class is that they need to pick something else to do besides being a Bard. It doesn't matter too much what the else is, but most of their build needs to be focused on the else rather than on their Bard. Hitting things with an axe works. Archery works. Some sort of weird feat chain works. Spellcasting works too, within the limits of the Bard's spell list and their UMD possibilities. But do something other than just sing and cast Haste once per fight (what Lem trap Bards usually end up doing before they do nothing).

The OP has made reference to having other things to do with their actions at higher level, so they might be thinking of a spellcasting route. That would work well with the Kitsune race as an Enchanter and they have the Charisma for it. If that's the plan, though, they need to get Spell Focus feats or something like that at level 1 (consider some baseline defensive feats like Toughness or Great Fortitude) instead of the Skill Focus. Skill Focus (Perform - Oratory) selection just screams to me that the player might be falling for the Lem trap.

In case I'm giving the impression that I think Perform is unimportant, I recommend that full progression Bards pick two Perform skills to match up with Versatile Performance at 2nd and 6th level. Put full ranks in both of those skills (but don't otherwise focus on them unless you have something specific in mind). The 10th level pick I find to be superfluous, especially if the Bard is playing up through the low levels. If the Bard cares about the skills they will Versatile at level 10, they'll need them before that...even level 6 is a squeeze. A small number of ranks in a third Perform skill is OK to make sure that the Bard has both a visual and an audible Performance. Ideally, you'll get visual & audible from the two full-rank skills to ensure that you can do both Countersong & Distraction well, but the value of those abilities varies a lot.

To bring it all back around, if the OP is trying to be a caster Bard and they want things to do at low-level, the answer (sadly) is to suck it up. Wizards and Sorcerers are both terrible at level 1 and you are basically trying to be one of those on an alternate chassis. Get a crossbow or something and pretend you are helping for a few levels until things kick in.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I should note/clarify here, between the Intimidate, Daze and Total Defence suggestions I already have a lot more alternates than I assumed. So mission basically accomplished with this thread! :)
Though there still seems to be lively conversation and advice going on, and I'll be damned if I try to stop it.


It sounds like the OP might be falling for what I call the "Lem trap" (but see below). If a player sits down and just reads the Bard entry in the Core rulebook, they hear all about these Charisma-based features and performances, but the truth is that the vast majority of what a Bard does needs a baseline of Charisma to work...probably starting with 14 for convenience in meeting baseline casting progression. This isn't the impression that the Core rulebook leaves you with on a first read, but that's how it works out. Notice that Perform checks are referenced constantly throughout the class, but it rarely matters how high the Perform checks are. Don't obsess over it.

What I tell players considering the Bard class is that they need to pick something else to do besides being a Bard. It doesn't matter too much what the else is, but most of their build needs to be focused on the else rather than on their Bard. Hitting things with an axe works. Archery works. Some sort of weird feat chain works. Spellcasting works too, within the limits of the Bard's spell list and their UMD possibilities. But do something other than just sing and cast Haste once per fight (what Lem trap Bards usually end up doing before they do nothing).

The OP has made reference to having other things to do with their actions at higher level, so they might be thinking of a spellcasting route. That would work well with the Kitsune race as an Enchanter and they have the Charisma for it. If that's the plan, though, they need to get Spell Focus feats or something like that at level 1 (consider some baseline defensive feats like Toughness or Great Fortitude) instead of the Skill Focus. Skill Focus (Perform - Oratory) selection just screams to me that the player might be falling for the Lem trap.

In case I'm giving the impression that I think Perform is unimportant, I recommend that full progression Bards pick two Perform skills to match up with Versatile Performance at 2nd and 6th level. Put full ranks in both of those skills (but don't otherwise focus on them unless you have something specific in mind). The 10th level pick I find to be superfluous, especially if the Bard is playing up through the low levels. If the Bard cares about the skills they will Versatile at level 10, they'll need them before that...even level 6 is a squeeze. A small number of ranks in a third Perform skill is OK to make sure that the Bard has both a visual and an audible Performance. Ideally, you'll get visual & audible from the two full-rank skills to ensure that you can do both Countersong & Distraction well, but the value of those abilities varies a lot.

To bring it all back around, if the OP is trying to be a caster Bard and they want things to do at low-level, the answer (sadly) is to suck it up. Wizards and Sorcerers are both terrible at level 1 and you are basically trying to be one of those on an alternate chassis. Get a crossbow or something and pretend you are helping for a few levels until things kick in.

You're right in assuming I'm going for the spellcaster Bard route, it just seems to be plainly the best means of supporting the rest of the Party to my fullest ability. Which is where a higher Charisma does help a lot more with extra rounds of performance, more spells and higher DCs.

And the Skill Focus was with versatile performance in mind, it's 18 skill ranks down the line effectively. But admittedly, Focus would be wiser.

Though I think the "suck it up" mentality is a bit poor.
Since like I said above people were already giving a lot of ideas between Intimidate, daze, Total Defence, or even Dazzling Display. The latter wasn't working for me personally but someone else might make good use out of it.

[Black Egg]

Though I think the "suck it up" mentality is a bit poor.
Since like I said above people were already giving a lot of ideas between Intimidate, daze, Total Defence, or even Dazzling Display. The latter wasn't working for me personally but someone else might make good use out of it.

I was discounting the Dazzling Display option as well, given that it requires a feat chain you don't otherwise want. That would have fallen under my "some sort of feat chain" wording, but it would have been your build as well instead of casting.

Shooting a crossbow, Intimidate and Daze all fall under "suck it up" in my book as actions you can take because there is nothing else to do. Intimidate & Daze will sometimes do nothing at all, which is why I keep pointing out a crossbow. I'm not persuaded by the Total Defense recommendation at all. I think we mostly agree.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Shooting a crossbow, Intimidate and Daze all fall under "suck it up" in my book as actions you can take because there is nothing else to do. Intimidate & Daze will sometimes do nothing at all, which is why I keep pointing out a crossbow. I'm not persuaded by the Total Defense recommendation at all. I think we mostly agree.

*Shortbow
Small detail, but it means I'm not worrying about reloading.

And Daze with 18 CHA and Spell Focus should be at least decent. It has a chance of failing, but that's the case with most non-buff, non-control spells. Intimidate I'll note will be a little weak for level 1 (potentially 1-5), cause that's something I'm leaving for Versatile Performance. And to be fair, Total Defence wasn't a suggestion in itself but incentive to go with flanking cause I'll be much harder to hit.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Small Update.

Note I decided to make Improved Initiative my 1st level feat, and leave Spell Focus for level 3.

Since it won't be till levels 3-5 that the spells start to be that useful, but a higher initiative means faster bardic music which helps everyone right at the get go.

[Elder_Basilisk]

*Shortbow
Small detail, but it means I'm not worrying about reloading.

And Daze with 18 CHA and Spell Focus should be at least decent. It has a chance of failing, but that's the case with most non-buff, non-control spells. Intimidate I'll note will be a little weak for level 1 (potentially 1-5), cause that's something I'm leaving for Versatile Performance. And to be fair, Total Defence wasn't a suggestion in itself but incentive to go with flanking cause I'll be much harder to hit.

You should use the crossbow. 1d8 is a lot better than 1d6-1. It's worth the move action in order for a nearly 100% increase in expected damage per hit.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You should use the crossbow. 1d8 is a lot better than 1d6-1. It's worth the move action in order for a nearly 100% increase in expected damage per hit.

*Double checks description*

Huh, I didn't realise you could get STR penalties on a non-composite bow. :/
Ok, I'll probably switch to the crossbow then. Thanks.

[Korahir]

It may be a bit of a stretch but Craft (Alchemy) or simply using alchemical Items and Poisons may be an option worth considering. A friend of mine played a bard similar to yours recently and took ranks in Craft (Alchemy) but didn't find the GP necessary to make use of it. Maybe you can find a workaround.

[Gwazi Magnum]

It may be a bit of a stretch but Craft (Alchemy) or simply using alchemical Items and Poisons may be an option worth considering. A friend of mine played a bard similar to yours recently and took ranks in Craft (Alchemy) but didn't find the GP necessary to make use of it. Maybe you can find a workaround.

Already got an Investigator to handle crafting those.
Though nothing says the Bard can't still use some of them. :3