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Theli
2007-07-09, 05:57 PM
This is just something that's been ruminating in my mind for a bit... What is the best optimized core bard you can come up with?

Let's put on some restrictions:

Can use only the core 3 books.
Only the PHB player races are allowed.
Must be either level 10 or level 20, and follow Wealth by level guidelines.
Has to be valid by RAW, with full build order.
Must give some reasons as to *why* it could qualify for the best bard.


Oh, and if you want to say that this is a waste of the time, go ahead. Get it out of your system. But please try not to post that opinion more than once.

crazedloon
2007-07-09, 06:01 PM
The first build you will get is a diplomacy monger. They end all encounters in a few rounds. If you give me a few I can come up with the actual stats but it starts as a half-elf with 18 cha and goes down hill from their :smallwink:

edit:
with little to no crunch a half elf with 23 ranks in diplomacy 18 ch + 6 item + 5 tome + 5 level = 34(12)cha, 5 ranks in bluf/Bluff/Knowledge (nobility and royalty)/Sense Motive and Negotiator Feat has a diplomacy modifier of 45 that is Hostile to Helpful in 1 check with a 5+ taking 10 and I am sure there are ways to get it higher.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-09, 06:04 PM
What point-buy?

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-09, 06:04 PM
Oh, and if you want to say that this is a waste of the time, go ahead. Get it out of your system. But please try not to post that opinion more than once.

This is a waste of time. There, I'm done.

Core 3 only Bard? That is quite difficult to pull off, but I'll give it a shot. I usually rely on Feats like Arcane Strike and Augment Healing. That and PrCs for Bard are quite nice (Seeker of the Song and Sublime Chord are particularly good).

However, I have down time of yes right now, so I'll probably mess around with it a bit tomorrow, and post a link via www.rpgwebprofiler.net


EDIT-


The first build you will get is a diplomacy monger. They end all encounters in a few rounds. If you give me a few I can come up with the actual stats but it starts as a half-elf with 18 cha and goes down hill from their

You should probably nip this in the bud (although most bards will wind up with good diplomacy, the diplomancer is probably not what you want from this 'challenge'.

Theli
2007-07-09, 06:06 PM
Yeah, I figure diplomacy would be a big thing for a bard. But I doubt their effectiveness at actually "ending all encounters".

RAW allows the DM to apply hefty minuses to any attempt. Especially if its done during combat. So perhaps a more all round type of character would be more effective.

Still, I look forward to seeing your build.

Theli
2007-07-09, 06:07 PM
Well, I suppose a point buy is required. So let's go with 28.

crazedloon
2007-07-09, 06:13 PM
see my edit for the build also by raw the only boni and negatives the DM can give will be a total of 4 (+2 DC and -2 to your check)

And to tell you the truth none of that has to do with it being a bard (though fascinating them before do the check will mean you have the time as well as the ease of going from indifferent to friendly)

Now I may actually try this if you want a particular way for them to be the best "Bard" what role should they fill.

Callix
2007-07-09, 06:17 PM
The Unstoppable Tongue.
Human Bard 20
Stats (32 point buy)
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 14
Cha 18
Final Stats:
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 14
Cha 34 (+5 inherent (tome), +6 enhancement (cloak))
Skills: Diplomacy 23 ranks, Bluff 23 ranks, Knowledge (nobility and royaly) 23 ranks, Sense Motive 23 ranks, Speak Language (23 for a total of 25 languages), Knowlegde (History) 23 ranks, Knowledge (Local) 23 ranks, Gather Information 23 ranks, Perform (Oratory) 23 ranks.
Feats: 1. Negotiator. Human: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
3. Improved Initiative
6. Leadership
9. Persuasive
12. Spell Focus (Enchantment)
15. Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
18. Spell Penetration
Make cohort a rogue and all followers experts with max ranks in Diplomacy.
Diplomacy modifier: +12 (Cha) +23 (ranks) +3 (skill focus) +2 (Negotiator) +6 (synergy, Bluff, sense motive and Knowledge (nobility and royalty)) +322 (Competence from cohort and 160 followers aiding him)= +368. Forget talking a king off his throne. This guy could persuade a god intent on smiting him to
make him divine instead. And I've only put in 2 magic items.
EDIT: for 28 pt buy, dex 10, con 10.

goat
2007-07-09, 06:18 PM
It can't be done. You at LEAST need the BoVD for the drug abuses that a real rock star could never be without.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-09, 06:23 PM
Yeah, I figure diplomacy would be a big thing for a bard. But I doubt their effectiveness at actually "ending all encounters".

RAW allows the DM to apply hefty minuses to any attempt. Especially if its done during combat. So perhaps a more all round type of character would be more effective.

Still, I look forward to seeing your build.

Noo, not really. The WoTC board record is around 350.

Lessee. Core only, so 13(cha)+2(racial)+6(synergy)+5(feats)+23(ranks)+1( luck)+3(competence).

So +53. Add in greater heroism for another +4, and you can do instant conversions, unless the DM imposes extra penalties. However, even with a -20 (almost impossible), the bard still gets 33+1d20, which makes hostiles indifferent in one round, 95% of the time.

This is without leadership cheese, which by RAW is optional. Furthermore by RAW, the DM can impose additional penalties up to -20.

Also, are custom items allowed? If so, my diplomacy just went up +27.

Theli
2007-07-09, 06:33 PM
Where is it said anywhere in RAW that the greatest penalty a DM can apply is -20?

Or that a Diplomacy check must even be *possible* in all situations?


Not to complain, but assuming that tables constructed in RAW somehow puts limits on the DM is a bit much. Seriously, quote me some text which mandates an upper limit on the difficulties imposed in the world. And it is described to work only in negotiations besides.

Callix
2007-07-09, 06:45 PM
If diplomacy is in negotiations, not combat, why are there rules to "rush" it as a full round action?

Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check.

Theli
2007-07-09, 06:53 PM
Because combat doesn't automatically preclude Diplomacy. Guards may have already decided to take action against you, but it doesn't happen instantaneously. You can exchange words and they may listen and consider...in SOME situations. In most cases, you probably won't be able to. Although I admit that's not a RAW guideline.

Besides that, you may be rushed in a way that does NOT demand combat. Maybe something is happening right now that needs to be stopped by someone other than yourself, or you have to convince someone to follow you right away and can't wait a minute.



Anyway, those are some nice diplomacy builds up there. Even ignoring the tome/leadership cheese. However, it's just not enough.

What's the bard going to do with those spell enhancing feats when diplomacy isn't an option? And does he have no effectiveness in melee against equal CR or slightly higher encounters?

Look, I'm not naive. I know about the power imbalances that exist. I know that, logically, certain classes can solo almost anything you throw at them given enough preparation time. But that doesn't mean that you can't think of ways to optimize an oft-derided class such as this that doesn't rely on exploiting questionable skill usage.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-09, 06:55 PM
Meh, a -20 for combat is obscene. -20 is like claiming you're a Solar polymorphed into a human deliberately, and can unpolymorph at any time, so you better run the **** away before I kick your ***.

Anyway, diplomacy already has a penalty for people who hate you. It's called Hostile.

Duh. Adding extra penalties, just to negate the diplomancer, smacks of houseruling, i.e. not RAW. It's abuseable easily. Accept it, houserule it, both in the competition and ingame, and move on.

Don't try to claim it's RAW.

Actually, a good one, in IH diplomacy gets a bonus for roleplaying, and cannot necessarily be used if the DM deems it appropriate, as is specifically stated. There's RAW clairity.

Theli
2007-07-09, 07:03 PM
IH diplomacy?

Yes, in *combat* -20 is obscene. And there is a table that says that -20 is practically impossible. But notice how that same table doesn't give an upper limit for purely impossible actions.

By RAW a -100 or greater penalty is reasonable if the task itself is not feasible. It's not my problem if DMs are shy about applying appropriate penalties. Or even refuse to deny granting a check when *no real negotiations are taking place*.

I think that key sentence ("In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage.") is ignored by way too many people when they consider the diplomacy skill.


Edit: Although reading about before that sentence just confuses things:
"You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs."

*shrugs* I see how it can be interpreted to mean that players have free reign to attempt to influence any NPC anywhere in the world. I guess I'll have to concede that point.


So fine, diplomacy is great. You don't even have to be a bard to play with it. And by RAW it's exploitable. Woo.

So can we move on beyond it? New rule, diplomacy is only one part of the best bard.

crazedloon
2007-07-09, 07:09 PM
rule quotes ignore for the actual chalange

Ok well lets quote some rules (I'm not very good at this so lets see)


Favorable And Unfavorable Conditions

Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check.

The chance of success can be altered in four ways to take into account exceptional circumstances.

1. Give the skill user a +2 circumstance bonus to represent conditions that improve performance, such as having the perfect tool for the job, getting help from another character (see Combining Skill Attempts), or possessing unusually accurate information.
2. Give the skill user a -2 circumstance penalty to represent conditions that hamper performance, such as being forced to use improvised tools or having misleading information.
3. Reduce the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task easier, such as having a friendly audience or doing work that can be subpar.
4. Increase the DC by 2 to represent circumstances that make the task harder, such as having an uncooperative audience or doing work that must be flawless.

Conditions that affect your character’s ability to perform the skill change the skill modifier. Conditions that modify how well the character has to perform the skill to succeed change the DC. A bonus to the skill modifier and a reduction in the check’s DC have the same result: They create a better chance of success. But they represent different circumstances, and sometimes that difference is important.

That explains all RAW modifiers for skill checks period end of story. (ok once again I might have missed it but really unless I see another quote from the rules I'm sticking to my guns :smalltongue: )


Check:

You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.

Emphasis mine:

As you can see this explains 2 different situations 1 where you are just changing an attitude (which these builds are designed to do) and that is a flat out none apposed check with a general use. The other is the opposed check in negotiations that you were thinking about.

__________________________________________________ _-


Here in lies your problem you are asking for an Optimized character for a class that is the Jack of all Trades Master of None. Ok so he can be a really good healer.... for a bard... i.e. not nearly as good as a bandaid cleric. He may be a really good skill monkey..... for a bard ....... no where as good as that rogue. He may do a bunch of damage ...... ok maybe not :smalltongue:

Theli
2007-07-09, 07:10 PM
Point conceded. Please read the edit for my previous post.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-09, 07:12 PM
And, just because nobody mentioned it yet,

Bard/1 - Druid/19

Theli
2007-07-09, 07:18 PM
*claps* Good show. (Only mildly sarcastic. It's my own stupidity to not have demanded full bard.)

Callix
2007-07-09, 07:28 PM
Now make all the expert followers Kenkus to add another 160 to diplomacy, and start taking useful feats/spells. Swap Enchantment stuff for Illusion, and start lobbing Images around to control your opponent. If things start going badly, hit 'em with Weird. For True Seers, try enchantments. Mindless opponents, a bard is pretty stuffed no matter what. See Rogues and Undead for ideas. Inspire heroism and go down fighting.

Theli
2007-07-09, 11:13 PM
That's about the size of it I guess. Get a decent set of skills and bump charisma to try to make use of illusions and whatever party buffs you can bring to the table.

Well, thanks for the input.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-10, 05:44 AM
Hi Theli,

don't know if it is still of use to you, but there are various other core bard builds, depending on what strategy you wish to maximise:

1) Combat bard
Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness mean you (after two standard actions) make up the attack bonus and likely damage bonus difference vs full BAB classes. Add your haste spell and you have the same number of attack (and your haste and music affects also your allies). Plus, there are so many spells (invisibility, mirror image, project image, healing) that you can use to make a viable gish.
If you go ranged combat, it is even more awesome. You have the whip proficiency for free, so you could max STR and get improved trip. And, since UMD is a class skill and you have high CHR, anyhow, just get a scroll of divine power and you're better at that than the non-casting classes as well for some key situations.

2) Caster bard
Many people overlook that with some caster level boosting items, a bard can hold his own vs other full casters. He has silence and greater dispel magic (thus can counter almost anything, spontaneously) and can use via UMD all scrolls and spells out there to complement his already formidable stuff.
Concentrate on the enchantment and illusions that the bard gets at lower level than full casters. This even gets you in some cases with item creation feats access to home-made magic items that even wizards can't do themselves (wands of legend lore or freedom of movement anyone?). And the rare bard-only core spells like modify memory or glibness are really great. Glibness does not even allow a save or SR.
And remember that a bard has better saves, hps, AC, skils and chances of surviving AMFs than the other arcane caster classes.

3) Healing bard
Now here, of course, the bard is clearly inferior to clerics or even druids. But again, there is UMD; or a simple homemade wand of cure serious wounds can already help a lot.

4) Skill monkey bard
Has already been outlined above.

Normally, bard 20 should be fine core, since the prestige classes do not really advance the good stuff of a bard (at best the spells, but not the music or skill points).
Interesting Core prestige classes that at least advance the spellcasting (though not the bard abilities): Eldritch Knight (gives higher BAB), or even Arcane Trickster if you can squeeze in 3 rogue levels (though not Loremaster, since it does not provide much for a bard, even though bardic knowledge is advanced).
If you did an archer bard, even an Arcane Archer can be quite devastating (if you, for instance, put on illusions/silence/mass suggestions ("drop weapons and flee") on your arrows that can cause detrimental effects to your enemies; or even AMFs vs enemy casters).
And, of course, there is the dragon disciple if you do a combat bard.

- Giacomo

mikeejimbo
2007-07-10, 06:42 AM
It can't be done. You at LEAST need the BoVD for the drug abuses that a real rock star could never be without.

I had to log in, just to award this post the internet.

Theli
2007-07-10, 10:22 AM
Thank you Sir Guacamole!

It's nice to know that there are still at least some people that can look at the weaker base DnD classes and not immediately give up for lack of twinkage.


Edit:
Just wanted to mention that, unfortunately, Antimagic Field isn't on the Bard's spell list. And I don't see any way that you could use the UMD skill in combination with the Arcane Archer "Imbue Arrow" ability. Although, yes, you can use that from scrolls or wands alone with UMD.