Lucifer, Season 2

[random11]

Every end of an episode I'm still annoyed when I see the "based on the character from the comic" title.
Lucifer in the show is an airhead who thinks only he exists in the world, Lucifer in the comic knew others existed but he just didn't care.

But enough about this argument, I had an entire season to complain about that.
So just to be original, here are the two things that bothered me in the first episode of the season:

1) Maze said that she tried to break "Mother" for hundreds of years and failed, but it doesn't surprise me considering that she "tortured" someone in this episode with feathers and glue.
Really?! 2000 years of an expert torturer and THIS is what you do?
Maze, what did they do to you... :smalleek:

2) The powers of both Lucifer and Amenadiel are now unstable, sometimes working and sometimes not.
I should be happy now that there is some sort of a challenge to the characters, but I have a fear that the writers will use this instability to activate the powers whenever it is useful to the plot.
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

[DiscipleofBob]

Every end of an episode I'm still annoyed when I see the "based on the character from the comic" title.
Lucifer in the show is an airhead who thinks only he exists in the world, Lucifer in the comic knew others existed but he just didn't care.

But enough about this argument, I had an entire season to complain about that.

Season One was one of my favorite shows on television. Granted, I've never read the original comic. I expect if I had I'd be disappointed with the TV version, but now I also assume if I were to go read the comic now I'd be pining for the TV version.

I can sympathize though. Any time someone claims that Arrow is faithful to the comics makes me want to punch them through the Internet.


1) Maze said that she tried to break "Mother" for hundreds of years and failed, but it doesn't surprise me considering that she "tortured" someone in this episode with feathers and glue.
Really?! 2000 years of an expert torturer and THIS is what you do?
Maze, what did they do to you... :smalleek:

You missed the taser she also had. And I'm sure part of it was her only wanting to vent a little steam and not completely break him, lest Lucifer get in trouble with the authorities. Not to mention it's implied she spent the mid-season break becoming more, for lack of a better term, human.


2) The powers of both Lucifer and Amenadiel are now unstable, sometimes working and sometimes not.
I should be happy now that there is some sort of a challenge to the characters, but I have a fear that the writers will use this instability to activate the powers whenever it is useful to the plot.
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

As far as we know Lucifer's invulnerability is still only negated when the detective's around. Amenadiel we don't know exactly what, but it seems his time slow just lasts shorter than usual. I suppose there would be an awful lot of subplots that could be solved easily either way.

I just hope the entire season won't be Lucifer taking a beating because the detective's shown up and he'll be allowed to dole out some real punishment on the bad guys.

[random11]

Season One was one of my favorite shows on television. Granted, I've never read the original comic. I expect if I had I'd be disappointed with the TV version, but now I also assume if I were to go read the comic now I'd be pining for the TV version.

I can sympathize though. Any time someone claims that Arrow is faithful to the comics makes me want to punch them through the Internet.


Even without the comic I see it as yet another "cop plus one". Somewhere between the smugness (and "powers") from the mentalist, the quirky bits of Castle and social awkwardness from Bones.
The point is, we've seen it a million times already.
I don't think the show is BAD, but I do consider it a missed opportunity.



You missed the taser she also had. And I'm sure part of it was her only wanting to vent a little steam and not completely break him, lest Lucifer get in trouble with the authorities. Not to mention it's implied she spent the mid-season break becoming more, for lack of a better term, human.


And this here is my problem, if you quickly move all your unique characters more toward human, they lose what makes them special.
You can't have it both ways, you can't create a badass character that tortured people for centuries, only to become harmless prankster in a few weeks. At least if it was shown that Lucifer had to stop her from doing much worse and that she is disappointed about it.

And just for comparison, do you know what Maze did in the comic when she left Lucifer for a while?
Not a major spoiler: Took control of an entire race as her army and came back to be Lucifer's equal instead of his servant in one of the more memorable chapters in the series.


As far as we know Lucifer's invulnerability is still only negated when the detective's around. Amenadiel we don't know exactly what, but it seems his time slow just lasts shorter than usual. I suppose there would be an awful lot of subplots that could be solved easily either way.

I just hope the entire season won't be Lucifer taking a beating because the detective's shown up and he'll be allowed to dole out some real punishment on the bad guys.

I might be wrong, but I think this time his invulnerability disappeared before Chloe arrived to the scene, meaning that this time she saved him.
Need to check it though.

[Olinser]

Oh crap did it start up again already?!?!

I gotta go find a place to watch it.

[Kislath]

That "glue" looked like tar to me. She tarred & feathered him, and that was after a lot of cattle-prod zapping.
This might be a kinder, gentler Maze, but she's still pretty mean.

I'm not sure what's up with Amen losing his powers. He might just be spending way too much time on Earth.

I sure hope that vial of Lucifer's blood makes it's way into the cute new CSI girl's lab despite currently being in a trash can. It would be fun to see her find that it has no DNA and is not of any known blood type. Being a Christian, maybe she'll figure out who Lucifer is long before Chloe does.

[Olinser]

All right.

Detective Douche is back? SERIOUSLY? And with barely a 10 second explanation that is questionable at best? Come on. Why does he exist as a character. Lucifer seems to have stopped trying to sleep with Chloe, so he literally has no point in this show anymore.

As for why Amenadiel is losing his powers - I'm guessing it is because he was healed with one of Lucifer's feathers, he's now 'linked' to Lucifer. So if Lucifer is close to Chloe, Amenadiel loses his powers for the same amount of time (or there may be some kind of battery effect - i.e. if Lucifer is with Chloe for 10 minutes, Amenadiel still has a limited a mount of power tat he's saved, but it takes him a while to 'charge' back up). It's a little hard to tell exactly where Lucifer and Chloe are when he's losing his powers, but that's my best guess.

Lucifer appears to be the same. He only lost his powers when Chloe was in the immediate area.

The only other thing I could think of would be just mental, Amenadiel is questioning his role in Heaven and starting to lose his powers. But that doesn't make a huge amount of sense since Lucifer still had his full powers even after being cast out completely.

The blood is going to HAVE to feature somewhere again. I mean it was literally pointless if it doesn't come back. I'm guessing somebody sees it in the trash, thought it fell off the desk, and takes it to the lab since it is fully labeled and everything.

[Kislath]

Okay... how does Mum know what a cellphone even is, let alone how to use one or disable one in water?

[random11]

I though Lucifer was a clueless moron when it came to humans.
Then I saw his mother...

[comicshorse]

Okay... how does Mum know what a cellphone even is, let alone how to use one or disable one in water?

I presumed it was more about putting it inside something to dampen the annoying sound, the fact that the water shut it down completely was just a happy accident

And oh poor Amenadiel, I can't help feel this is Dad's less than subtle way of pointing out he doesn't approve of who he was sleeping with

[Olinser]

Okay... how does Mum know what a cellphone even is, let alone how to use one or disable one in water?

Same reason she speaks English. Presumably she vacuumed up somebody's knowledge by some divine method - possession, brain sucking, or just good ole mind reading.

Alternatively, its unclear exactly how long she has been out, she probably just learned on her own. A basic cell phone is not a complicated piece of hardware to use, they're EVERYWHERE now, and 'don't put it in water or it will stop working' is one of the most basic facts about a cell phone you can know.

Now if she hacks into the police database I'll call shenanigans.

[random11]

And oh poor Amenadiel, I can't help feel this is Dad's less than subtle way of pointing out he doesn't approve of who he was sleeping with

I must add that Amenadiel's story is much more interesting than the one involving the main characters.

[Kislath]

Amen is having some serious problems. Poor guy. I don't suppose that angel wings just moult, eh?
I kinda wished that Dr. Linda would run across the hall to see what the screaming was about and see his wings.

Back to the cellphone thing, Charlotte knew what a cellphone was, but not a credit card?
Maybe it was just a case of "make the noisy thing stop." after all.

She'd better not suddenly know how to drive a car next week.

I liked the bit at the end when she looked up to Heaven and smirked mockingly, resulting in a lot of lightning and thunder out of the blue.
If the Old Man is watching, he's bound to be a wee bit irritated.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe it was just a case of "make the noisy thing stop." after all.

I thought this was the clear interpretation: noisy thing was bothering her, so she dunked it in water, which she knows dampens sounds. If she knew how to use it, she would have answered it (if only to ask them where Lucifer is).

AS to drive a car, I'd expect Lucifer to give her lessons on modern life off-screen (maybe with a bit of a montage or have them in the intro completing the training)

GW

[random11]

BTW, it seems like something important was ignored here, the body "mother" took has family.

No one will ask why the woman didn't return home to her husband and children?
Should we expect multiple awkward moments explained by loss of memory, or will it be swept under the rug and ignored in the next episodes?

[Olinser]

Amen is having some serious problems. Poor guy. I don't suppose that angel wings just moult, eh?
I kinda wished that Dr. Linda would run across the hall to see what the screaming was about and see his wings.

Back to the cellphone thing, Charlotte knew what a cellphone was, but not a credit card?
Maybe it was just a case of "make the noisy thing stop." after all.

She'd better not suddenly know how to drive a car next week.

I liked the bit at the end when she looked up to Heaven and smirked mockingly, resulting in a lot of lightning and thunder out of the blue.
If the Old Man is watching, he's bound to be a wee bit irritated.

I mean I said it last season - Amenadiel engaged in some SERIOUSLY questionable actions in his campaign to get Lucifer back to Hell that unambiguously resulted in the deaths of multiple completely innocent people.

Since his final show had him explicitly tell the therapist that he needed to 'atone', it sounds like Amenadiel at least thinks his powers and wings are being taken away because he's finally crossed the line enough to face consequences.

[Clertar]

I prefer the original (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpZK1IsoZEg) to the remake, personally.

:smalltongue:

[comicshorse]

Hmmm, Mum seemed genuinely surprised by her abilities at the end there to me

[Kislath]

Ok, it's been a few episodes since we talked about this show, I'm not sure why.. but tonight's show was a good one.

SPOILERS AHEAD!!!! ( really good ones! )

To catch you up in case you missed it, Maze has moved in with Chloe. Yes, they are now roommates! Things haven't exactly gone very smoothly.
This week, though, Maze took Trixie out Trick-or-Treating.
Maze intimidated people into giving Trixie much more candy, and CASH, than she normally would have gotten. Maze admitted that this whole trick-or-treating thing was a lot more fun than she had anticipated.
Trixie lamented that Maze wasn't wearing a costume.
Maze decided to "put one on," and started wearing her true face, worried that Trixie would be traumatized.
"COOL!" said Trixie. "Now we'll get LOTS more candy!"
*sigh* Kids today...

Meanwhile...

Last week, another Angelic brother showed up. Uriel, this time.
Uriel has a cool power to see patterns and connections in all things, and to make things happen with just one teensy little adjustment here or there.
For example, he moved a guy's skateboard just a few inches to one side as it lay in someone's front yard, and it resulted moments later in a crazy chain reaction of events which resulted in Chloe getting banged up in a car crash.

He confronted Lucifer with an ultimatum-- "cough up Mom so I can take her back to Hell, or I'll kill Chloe next time."
Lots of stuff happened.
In the end, it turned out that Uriel had stolen the Blade of Azrael, and his real plan was to KILL Mom. Soul-kill her, that is; no more Hell or heaven for her, just non-existence.
Even worse, because Lucifer had made things SO difficult, he said that he would kill both Mom AND Chloe!
Lucifer then got ahold of the Blade and killed Uriel.

Lucifer was really broken up over this. He had never killed anyone, let alone a brother, and he started cracking up over it.

Okay, so now we come back to THIS week. Lucifer is not his good old self. At all. He starts acting all crazy in a subconscious desire to be punished, and it's causing some serious problems for everyone. Heck, he even recklessly flashed his fire-eyes at a suspect in the prologue to frighten him.
Whoops, wrong guy. Innocent.
They get on the trail of the real killer, though, and when they finally catch him, it turns out that the killer was also just trying to get himself punished for something that wasn't even his fault. Lucifer could relate to that, and indeed had tried to get himself shot during the confrontation.

Chloe has had enough. She begs Lucifer to tell her what's wrong, and says that she'll understand, but he says that there is no possible way she could ever understand. She said "fine, then go talk to your therapist or something before your problems eat you alive."

So he does.

He goes to see Dr. Linda, and tries to talk about his problems, but she just can't stand it anymore. She says that she can't work like this, with all of the wacky metaphors and fantasies. She says that she can't help him unless he's finally totally honest with her. If he wants her help, he has to cut the crap.

Okay...you asked for it.

YES! He finally showed her his true face.

She turned into a quivering mass of gelatinous fear, quietly gibbering and having a spazz attack in her chair.

Unable to rouse her from her near-catatonic state, Lucifer just walked away and left her there to get a grip.
---episode ends---

The previews for next week suggest that she isn't coping well with the situation. Wait'll she figures out that Maze is a demon! LOL

[random11]

I'm impressed, a good episode.
It's amazing what you can come up with when you have writing and acting that contain actual emotions that are built and not just pop out of nowhere.

I didn't like Uriel as a character (or as I called him, the Rube Goldberg machine angel), nor did I like his episode with all the plot holes, but I can't ignore the impact it had on this one, so kudos!


As for criticism, I wasn't very impressed with the real face of both Maze and Lucifer.
Maybe they should get a couple of guys from the team that works on "Ash vs the Evil Dead". One makeup session from them, and the doctor's reaction could have looked more natural.

[comicshorse]

Trixie lamented that Maze wasn't wearing a costume.
Maze decided to "put one on," and started wearing her true face, worried that Trixie would be traumatized.


I thought the actress who plays Maze portrayed this wonderfully. Yes she was worried Trixie would be traumatized but, I think, she was just as worried that it would mean Trixie would reject her
(Cuteness the one power that effects all supernatural beings)

And it seems wonderfully convenient that the result of Mum and Amendiel's conversation is Amen deciding that Dad is to blame for it all

[Pronounceable]

This is going great. I sure am glad not a diehard fan of comics, or I wouldn't be able to watch this.

I kinda miss Detective Stache tho. He was pretty amusing.
Mom is totally up to something, that's not how a grieving mother acts.
I like Maze, I like Doctor, I like Detective Douche. Pretty much all the cast is great. Though forensics girl was missing this time, I thought all main cast is supposed to appear in every episode of a TV series.

[Olinser]

This is going great. I sure am glad not a diehard fan of comics, or I wouldn't be able to watch this.

I kinda miss Detective Stache tho. He was pretty amusing.
Mom is totally up to something, that's not how a grieving mother acts.
I like Maze, I like Doctor, I like Detective Douche. Pretty much all the cast is great. Though forensics girl was missing this time, I thought all main cast is supposed to appear in every episode of a TV series.

Oh yeah. Mom is totally scheming something up. The only question is what that scheme is and who is going to be affected.

My guess from what's happened so far is that she's going to try and turn Lucifer from little-kid tantrum of "you can't tell me what to do and you can't make me do my chores!" (chores in this case, being running Hell) towards open revolt and trying to take over Heaven from God.

Uriel was the next logical step down this road - now she can use him as an example of, "Look how bad this place has gotten with HIM in charge. You and I could run it so much better, so the angels don't have to knife each other."

[random11]

This is going great. I sure am glad not a diehard fan of comics, or I wouldn't be able to watch this.


I'm a big fan of the comic, which is why I didn't like the first season.
In all the first season, they didn't even get close to the comic, but they kept winking at audience with JUST enough hints that someone in the writers team did read the comic.
The result was annoyance instead of nostalgic.

In the second season, they removed the shackles of the comic. They were still not original since they stayed with the "detective plus one" script, but at least they weren't restricted anymore, which allowed them to take some original directions.
I may not like all the directions, and I certainly still prefer the comic, but now it's something different that can be judged by itself.

It took me awhile to understand what bothers me about the "detective plus one" shows, what makes them bad and what can make them possibly good.
The basic problem is in shows that you take an eccentric special character, but then all the plot focuses on mundane police investigations. This restricts everything that can make the character and the show special.
Lucifer was swimming in this problem until the last episode with Uriel. In that episode, the focus shifted from the police investigation of normal murders to Lucifer and his world.
So now, instead of being the focus, the police investigation only acts as a way to balance the insane plot and to create a parallel human motive.
This is a good thing, and I do hope they continue in this path.

[Kislath]

Ashara ( Mom ) is definitely up to no good. Lucifer is going to wind up thinking that Uriel was right all along before this is over, I'll bet.

He might even kill her himself. I'm assuming he still has the Blade of Azrael?
( OH! About that-- did you notice that they referred to Azrael as a "her?" Female angels? Really?? GRRR )


The big question is "how much damage will she do before she's stopped?"

Since God didn't send Uriel, I can only wonder what His whole take is on the situation. Mysterious ways, and all that, he must have known what would happen and has a plan. Is this whole thing some sort of test to see if Lucifer is finally ready for... something?

Poor Lucifer. I didn't catch it at the time, but there was more to the scene at the end when he revealed himself to Dr Linda. The one time when he really needed acceptance and understanding, all he got was rejection and the guilt from terrorizing her. He must have felt like crap.
Heh. Sympathy for the Devil.

I've also noticed one thing about angels. They seem so far to each be the embodiment of some facet/aspect of God. The range and scope of their varied powers makes each one very unique in some major way, as if each one was given one or two of God's powers. I think that's very cool. It makes me wonder if that's important somehow.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

( OH! About that-- did you notice that they referred to Azrael as a "her?" Female angels? Really?? GRRR )

Given that they are establishing the God-Mom-angels as a "regular" family (with the angels having had childhoods and the parents going through a bad divorce, with a missing mom and a distant dad as a result), why would there not be female angels?

Grey Wolf

[Brother Oni]

Given that they are establishing the God-Mom-angels as a "regular" family (with the angels having had childhoods and the parents going through a bad divorce, with a missing mom and a distant dad as a result), why would there not be female angels?

So far in Lucifer, we've seen 3 male angels (2 white and 1 black) and heard mention of 1 female one.
If we include Constantine TV, we've got Manny and Imogen (1 black male, 1 white female).

I'm with Grey Wolf on this - why are female angels raising eyebrows if different skin colours didn't?

[Eldan]

Well, it's a departure from Biblical and other classical Angel lore, which pretty firmly establishes them as the sons of god.

That said, everything else is a departure too, so I don't have much of a problem.

[Olinser]

So far in Lucifer, we've seen 3 male angels (2 white and 1 black) and heard mention of 1 female one.
If we include Constantine TV, we've got Manny and Imogen (1 black male, 1 white female).

I'm with Grey Wolf on this - why are female angels raising eyebrows if different skin colours didn't?

Well the major objection in this case is that in the comic Angels are actually sexless.

These objections were actually initially raised last season when Amenadiel was shown to be capable of actually having sex with Maze (and when Lucifer was actually determined to have normal equipment - although the rebuttal there was that was only the case because he'd cut off his wings) This is just a continuation of that objection.

[Brother Oni]

Poor Lucifer. I didn't catch it at the time, but there was more to the scene at the end when he revealed himself to Dr Linda. The one time when he really needed acceptance and understanding, all he got was rejection and the guilt from terrorizing her. He must have felt like crap.

Well it's a running theme that humanity must not get a glimpse of the divine. Lucifer's wings caused enough of a stir - imagine coming into contact with the original owner, let alone the entire challenging of your perception of the universe.


Well the major objection in this case is that in the comic Angels are actually sexless.

These objections were actually initially raised last season when Amenadiel was shown to be capable of actually having sex with Maze (and when Lucifer was actually determined to have normal equipment - although the rebuttal there was that was only the case because he'd cut off his wings) This is just a continuation of that objection.

Ah, so it's not an objection to female angels but an objection to there being either male or female angels in the first place. That's a perfectly legitimate quibble especially since as you've said, angels being sexless is a major plot point in the comics.

[Olinser]

Well it's a running theme that humanity must not get a glimpse of the divine. Lucifer's wings caused enough of a stir - imagine coming into contact with the original owner, let alone the entire challenging of your perception of the universe.



Ah, so it's not an objection to female angels but an objection to there being either male or female angels in the first place. That's a perfectly legitimate quibble especially since as you've said, angels being sexless is a major plot point in the comics.

Right, the race thing is a complete non-issue since that's not even what the angels actually look like - Lucifer has shown his real face several times now, and I recall him egging on Amenadiel trying to get him to show his 'real' face as well. So if they can hide their real faces, it stands to reason they can pick whatever skin color they want.

Functional male and female, on the other hand, raises a whole host of other issues.

[Fiery Diamond]

You'd think that at this point, though, people would have accepted that despite using names from and having acquired rights of, the show has nothing to do with the comic. Seriously, there's absolutely no reason to complain about it not matching up anymore. The show is undeniably its own thing.

I've never read the comics, but what exposure to them this (and its predecessor) thread gave me to them makes me think that the show is better anyway. Nothing that the comic fans have said about the comic in their complaints about the differences have sounded good to me.

[Brother Oni]

Functional male and female, on the other hand, raises a whole host of other issues.

From Luci's conquests and Amen/Maze hooking up, I certainly agree that they're correct anatomy wise, but I'm not sure the show has stated whether any of their other plumbing works correctly (Luci getting his conquests pregnant would raise a number of uncomfortable questions, let along the potential faecal matter hitting the fan of Amen getting Maze pregnant).

Their innate resistance to injury and poisons would probably make them immune to things like STDs, although Amen's current lack of powers is problematic.


You'd think that at this point, though, people would have accepted that despite using names from and having acquired rights of, the show has nothing to do with the comic. Seriously, there's absolutely no reason to complain about it not matching up anymore. The show is undeniably its own thing.

I've never read the comics, but what exposure to them this (and its predecessor) thread gave me to them makes me think that the show is better anyway. Nothing that the comic fans have said about the comic in their complaints about the differences have sounded good to me.

The show is undeniably its own thing now, first season, not so much.

I'm perfectly happy with the show and the comics existing independently, most of my gripes were the initially formulaic 'Cop + quirky civilian partner' setup which the show is thankfully moving away from (it's testament to Tom Ellis' skill as an actor that Lucifer doesn't quite step into the 'complete ****' level of pride during season 1).
The comics are a very different kettle of fish - in terms of tone, they essentially start from where the TV show is now and just spirals off into high level supernatural and fantastical plots, with the occasional pause for the human collateral damage, much like the Swahili proverb "When elephants fight, the grass gets hurt".

[thorgrim29]

let along the potential faecal matter hitting the fan of Amen getting Maze pregnant).

I don't know, a Preacher/Lucifer crossover would be fun, just Tulip interacting with Maze would be worth it

[Rynjin]

I've never read the comics, but what exposure to them this (and its predecessor) thread gave me to them makes me think that the show is better anyway. Nothing that the comic fans have said about the comic in their complaints about the differences have sounded good to me.

Having not read Lucifer, but having read Sandman I think you'd find them more interesting if you read them rather than the nitpicky observations made here a lot of the time.

A whole big theme of that cosmology is that these things are not human. AT ALL. They may embody human concepts or desires, but they are not themselves human in the slightest. They do not have human biology or thought processes. And it is interesting to watch alien thoughts and actions play out in front of you.

[random11]

Last episode:

The good:

"Hunting humans is a JOB! Who knew?", it's been a long time since I genuinely laughed at something here.

Also, the entire Maze-Linda relationship.
I'm glad Linda adapting to the situation is something that actually takes time and effort.
Might be a little hasty if you look at it from a realistic perspective, but it works in the story and it's better this way if the alternative is a character that locks herself behind a door until the season finale.

The bad:
I'm still annoyed about the entire <robotic voice>What are these hu-man EmoTIONS you speak of?</robotic voice>. These are the parts that made me cringe in any episode so far.
What's worse is that they need to make up their mind. Either Lucifer has a deep understanding about what humans want and desire, or he's a total **** that does not understand anything about emotions. The jumps between the two just isn't consistent.


Still, it's a major improvement over the first season.

[Pronounceable]

I like Trixie, she's always awesome. But I hate children both real and fictional. How does that work?

[Olinser]

Last episode:

The good:

"Hunting humans is a JOB! Who knew?", it's been a long time since I genuinely laughed at something here.

Also, the entire Maze-Linda relationship.
I'm glad Linda adapting to the situation is something that actually takes time and effort.
Might be a little hasty if you look at it from a realistic perspective, but it works in the story and it's better this way if the alternative is a character that locks herself behind a door until the season finale.

The bad:
I'm still annoyed about the entire <robotic voice>What are these hu-man EmoTIONS you speak of?</robotic voice>. These are the parts that made me cringe in any episode so far.
What's worse is that they need to make up their mind. Either Lucifer has a deep understanding about what humans want and desire, or he's a total **** that does not understand anything about emotions. The jumps between the two just isn't consistent.


Still, it's a major improvement over the first season.

It's not that Lucifer doesn't understand emotions. He doesn't understand RELATIONSHIPS, and how people emotionally react to relationships. And this makes perfect sense. He's been in Hell for millennia, with nobody around but damned souls and demons. He has emotions, obviously, but he has absolutely no baseline for how humans deal with a lot of emotions. A lot of his emotional developments aren't him suddenly discovering new and different emotions - but understanding how to DEAL with his emotions.

As for Linda,

I don't think she's being hasty. She's opened back up to Maze, but remember - Linda didn't actually SEE her as a demon. She is intellectually aware that Maze is a demon, but Linda doesn't really understand what the MEANS. She didn't even see Maze's real face. She is aware she is a demon, but has no real knowledge of what that entails. All she has to go on is mythology and religion about what being a demon means - she doesn't really know anything about Demon Maze.

Lucifer, on the other hand, blasted her with his true persona. I guarantee she'd still hide under a desk if she thought he was at the door.

[Brother Oni]

Haven't caught with this week yet, but need to vent at last week's.

So the wife who had cancer died because she was in the placebo group of double blinded trial.

*Eye twitch*

If this happened in real life, the clinical trial wouldn't have been approved in the first place. It is not ethical to give a patient with a life threatening disease a placebo - in cancer trials, the 'placebo' is the current gold standard therapy, with all the issues that causes scientifically (eg much harder to prove that your drug actually has an effect).

To put a cancer patient on a placebo in the interests of better quality scientific data is fast approaching Joseph Mengele levels of behaviour.

As it was, the pharma company managed to get the civil case dismissed - their lawyer must be OJ Simpson trial lawyers level quality and for the company to avoid being shut down by the FDA for such an ethical breach (who have much lower requirements of proof than courts), they must have greased up the inspectors more than a Turkish oil wrestler.

So in conclusion,

THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!!!!!!! RAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

[Olinser]

Haven't caught with this week yet, but need to vent at last week's.

So the wife who had cancer died because she was in the placebo group of double blinded trial.

*Eye twitch*

If this happened in real life, the clinical trial wouldn't have been approved in the first place. It is not ethical to give a patient with a life threatening disease a placebo - in cancer trials, the 'placebo' is the current gold standard therapy, with all the issues that causes scientifically (eg much harder to prove that your drug actually has an effect).

To put a cancer patient on a placebo in the interests of better quality scientific data is fast approaching Joseph Mengele levels of behaviour.

As it was, the pharma company managed to get the civil case dismissed - their lawyer must be OJ Simpson trial lawyers level quality and for the company to avoid being shut down by the FDA for such an ethical breach (who have much lower requirements of proof than courts), they must have greased up the inspectors more than a Turkish oil wrestler.

So in conclusion,

THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!!!!!!! RAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

That's not what happened.

It wasn't cancer - it was something unpronounceable that Chloe said was some kind of lung disease.

She didn't have a life-threatening disease, she had a TERMINAL disease. One for which there was apparently no current treatment at her stage of disease.

And at the end the killer admits it - the doctors and lawyers weren't at fault.

[dinovo29]

Funny how some conspiracy theorists think this show is some kind of "making the devil look like a nice guy" kind of satanic thing Lol. My grandma enjoys it though, it's been aired just recently in my country.

[Brother Oni]

That's not what happened.

It wasn't cancer - it was something unpronounceable that Chloe said was some kind of lung disease.

She didn't have a life-threatening disease, she had a TERMINAL disease. One for which there was apparently no current treatment at her stage of disease.

And at the end the killer admits it - the doctors and lawyers weren't at fault.


I concede the cancer, but she was still in the placebo group of a clinical trial for someone with a terminal lung disease (Lymphangioleiomyomatosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphangioleiomyomatosis)). Somebody designed the trial to be double blinded with a placebo group so it can be quite easily argued that designer is the person at fault - I'm very surprised it wasn't shot down by the ethics committee when it was proposed.

I agree that the doctors running the trials aren't at fault, but I'm more dubious on the laywer's culpability - fair enough, it's his job to protect the company from admitting any wrong doing and he could probably wrangle a diminished responsibility charge, but not dismiss it altogether. The FDA takes a very dim view of companies whose patients who die on their clinical trials and it comes out they've been administered placebo.

In the end, it's a very technical and complex situation that the writers have to convert into easily digestible exposition and from the the viewer's perspective, it's hard to tell whether the writers don't have a clue or it's just really dumbed down. I know I shouldn't get so worked up, but I see it time and time again in the media and I'm just venting as I'm employed in the industry.


Funny how some conspiracy theorists think this show is some kind of "making the devil look like a nice guy" kind of satanic thing Lol. My grandma enjoys it though, it's been aired just recently in my country.

It's less conspiracy theorists and more certain religious groups, but discussion of that is against board rules.

[random11]

Good episode

Just a few episodes ago, I kept watching this show mostly to snark at it.
I didn't expect that it will change to be genuinely good.
Sometimes I'm glad to be wrong.

Anyway:

Linda is slowly adapting. Not too fast to make it unreliable, but also not too slow to make it overly dramatic and boring.

Supernatural elements like the knife enter as an integral part of the story.

Amenadiel has character development that makes sense, that's not something that I can take for granted in these kind of shows.

The only thing left is to understand where God is in all this story. I know it's part of the mystery, but at this point someone should have known SOMETHING.

[Kislath]

I can only assume that it's all part of some crazy test,
OR,
maybe God's gone missing just like in Preacher. Same comic universe, right?

I wonder if Ella will ever learn the truth about Lucifer, and if she does, how will her already being a true believer affect how she handles it?

YOU ATE MY PUDDING!! DIE!!
I saw that one coming, and it was still funny.

[comicshorse]

Undoubtedly the funniest reconstruction of a Yoga massacre ever ! :smallcool:

Interesting that Ella seems pretty much immune to Lucifer's supernatural sex appeal

And I think Mom is thinking about introducing a furious Lucifer and the blade of the Angel of Death to her husband and hoping Lucifer adds Patricide and Deicide to his list of sins

[random11]

Interesting that Ella seems pretty much immune to Lucifer's supernatural sex appeal

I think that in this case he's not even trying.
Nothing personal against Ella, but Lucifer learned along the way that seducing women might hurt his chances with Chloe, especially if they are close to her.



And I think Mom is thinking about introducing a furious Lucifer and the blade of the Angel of Death to her husband and hoping Lucifer adds Patricide and Deicide to his list of sins

My guess is another wink to the comic.
The knife will be used to tear reality and open a gate to heaven, or something like that.

[Olinser]

Undoubtedly the funniest reconstruction of a Yoga massacre ever ! :smallcool:

Interesting that Ella seems pretty much immune to Lucifer's supernatural sex appeal

And I think Mom is thinking about introducing a furious Lucifer and the blade of the Angel of Death to her husband and hoping Lucifer adds Patricide and Deicide to his list of sins

I don't think so, the door-window comment makes me think differently.

The 'door' being humans slaughtering each other with the blade to cause enough chaos to force God to do something about it. Obviously that's not going to happen.

The 'window' is most likely she's realized that the Blade is actually affecting LUCIFER (probably because of a combination of him cutting off his wings and proximity to Chloe, although she doesn't necessarily know either). So now she's going to switch her plan to manipulating Lucifer into causing enough chaos and destruction to attract the attention of God.

[Brother Oni]

maybe God's gone missing just like in Preacher. Same comic universe, right?


Sandman is the main crossover with the events that lead to Lucifer leaving hell being a major story arc in it. I know that John Constantine has a minor part in Sandman helping Dream out with a favour and Lucifer makes a one panel cameo in a later Hellblazer story.

Preacher is its own thing and doesn't crossover with any Vertigo comics as far as I know. Crossing them over raises questions on the the Saint's Colt Peacemakers as they're made from the Angel of Death's sword, but I'd agree they'd fit quite neatly.

[Mato]

Sadly,
The car won't go boom with her in it. Otherwise the gig is up and they would lose the chance to stretch out the whole manipulative mother thing for the entire season.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sadly,
The car won't go boom with her in it. Otherwise the gig is up and they would lose the chance to stretch out the whole manipulative mother thing for the entire season.

I'm guessing she will turn around to order a cab (we saw she had been drinking red wine), and mom will blow up the car behind her. If so, she'll end in the hospital, forcing Lucifer to confront his feelings.

GW

[thorgrim29]

I'm guessing Amenadiel will show up behind her

[Kislath]

Well, obviously Chloe won't get blown up, so the question is whether or not Mom gets caught making the attempt.

[Brother Oni]

Had to watch the bar scene twice as the first time I was laughing too hard at the look of sheer disgust on Amen's face watching his mother seduce Detective Dan. :smallbiggrin:

I'm thinking things will go down like Grey Wolf says - Chloe escapes by the skin of her teeth, forcing Lucifer to confront his feelings.

I'm thinking Lucifer stabs his mother with Azrael's sword, which breaks the universe somehow.

[Olinser]

The teaser trailer definitely seems to show Amenadiel in the same alley with the mother about to trigger the bomb, it SOUNDS like Amenadiel throws her off by telling her about Chloe's ability to sap Lucifer's powers. I'm thinking the mother will be able to identify why Chloe has her powers and plot to use them to get back to Heaven.

I think Chloe STARTED as an expy of Elaine Belloc, but the show has diverged from the comics so much at this point I think its more likely they're going to make her a Nephilim of some variety.

[Kislath]

I've taken to writing new episodes in my head while I'm doing my otherwise mind-numbing, soul-crushing job.

Here's a sample scene:

Dr Linda is sitting at a bar/lunch counter.
Some weird guy walks in the place. He is sniffing around the room. Eventually he sits next to her and takes a good whiff of her. She notices and is... irritated.

"May I help you?" she asks in a tone that's anything but helpful.

"Hrrrmmm... No offense intended, Madam, but you smell like Hell." He smiles broadly.

She is a mix of angry and embarrassed, unsure of what to make of this or how to respond.

"Oh. Well... okay. I'll do something about it soon. Thanks for telling me. Most people keep comments like that to themselves out of simple- oh my God... you mean that literally, don't you?"
She remembers having hugged Lucifer a little earlier in the episode.

"Yez...I do... I seek my master. You have seen him, yes?"

"Er..yes. You... you're a demon!"

"Yezz.. I am. I must say you are taking it very well. You may call me Gus."

"Gus."

"Yez."

"Gus the demon."

"Well, not really. Guxumphumpadu doesn't roll off the human tongue very well, so Gus is fine."

"Okaaaayy.... so... what do you want from Lucifer?"

"The keyz. To Hell. He took them when he left, and now everything is falling apart. I do the best I can, but without the true power and authority to control things, well..."

"Really? Keys? I gotta say I didn't expect that. Isn't there a spare set someplace?"

"A spare... hrmmm... no. They aren't really keys. I just called them that so you'd better understand."

"Oh, ok. Waitaminute... why do you need them?"

"To take over, of courze. The Boss isn't coming back, so it's time we made it offizial, yez? I am the new Prince of Hell. Pleased to meetcha."

Okay, so I get very bored sometimes. Still, it seems to me that something like this should happen eventually. Hell can't run amok forever.

[Olinser]

So unfortunately it seems that the next episode of Lucifer won't be on until mid-January. Lame.

Also, totally called it with Chloe.

So she is effectively a Nephilim, only created because Amenadiel was told to by God.

[random11]

So unfortunately it seems that the next episode of Lucifer won't be on until mid-January. Lame.

Also, totally called it with Chloe.

So she is effectively a Nephilim, only created because Amenadiel was told to by God.

If I understand correctly, he blessed the parents and not replace the father.
Meaning it's more like Abraham and Sarah from the Bible, not Nephilim.

Either Way, the absence of God here without any acknowledgement from anyone if he is gone or not is getting more problematic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Either Way, the absence of God here without any acknowledgement from anyone if he is gone or not is getting more problematic.

???

He is quite clearly NOT absent, if he did send Amenadiel in a mission some 30 years back. If what you mean is "why isn't he interfering in the plot?", I'd point out to Chloe. That tells me that God probably has an even better version of the omniscience of his dead son, which means he can just make small changes to his advantage far enough in the past.

In fact, I am reminded of Pratchett & Gaiman: you can't beat God at poker, because he's playing solitaire.

GW

[Avilan the Grey]

Interesting that Ella seems pretty much immune to Lucifer's supernatural sex appeal

Um remember the episode where she thinks he wants to do it in the station with her (misunderstanding) and she just goes... "Oh! um... Sure!"


???

He is quite clearly NOT absent, if he did send Amenadiel in a mission some 30 years back. If what you mean is "why isn't he interfering in the plot?", I'd point out to Chloe. That tells me that God probably has an even better version of the omniscience of his dead son, which means he can just make small changes to his advantage far enough in the past.

In fact, I am reminded of Pratchett & Gaiman: you can't beat God at poker, because he's playing solitaire.

GW

Exactly. Absent he is not. He has a plan.

[Olinser]

Um remember the episode where she thinks he wants to do it in the station with her (misunderstanding) and she just goes... "Oh! um... Sure!"



Exactly. Absent he is not. He has a plan.

Yes, 'absent' is definitely not the right word. 'Manipulating from the shadows' seems like a more accurate description.

He explicitly communicated directly to Amenadiel just 30 years ago (barely a blink of an eye to immortal cosmic beings), and it was heavily implied at the start of the series that He had sent Amenadiel out to corral Lucifer.

I'm actually pretty surprised that God interfered that directly. If anything that shows that he does actually have a plan that is in motion.

[Eldan]

"To take over, of courze. The Boss isn't coming back, so it's time we made it offizial, yez? I am the new Prince of Hell. Pleased to meetcha."

Okay, so I get very bored sometimes. Still, it seems to me that something like this should happen eventually. Hell can't run amok forever.

That's more or less what happens in Sandman. Except half of world mythology shows up to make a bid for hell. Various demons, a few angels, law, chaos, faerie, Odin, Bast, Susano. IT's quite fun arc.

[Kislath]

Oh, okay. Cool. I haven't read the comic, but it made sense to me that this should happen.

As for God's plan, at least 35 years in the making, I'm sure it's a doozy.
Chloe's ability to make Lucifer mortal is probably a lot more than just a coincidental side effect. I have a feeling that she was made for that very purpose.
I'm thinking that the Old Man wants to give Lucifer a whole new perspective on life and mortal life in particular.
I wonder... will Lucifer have to choose between going home or becoming mortal permanently? Is Chloe the bait used in this test?
Are even bigger things in store? Has Luci missed a lot of his father's tutoring over the millennia, and now needs a crash course in understanding humans to get him back up to speed for some reason?

[Avilan the Grey]

My guess it is more the latter.

However I wonder how much was a plan and how much was hope; I am not sure he counted on Uriel being killed, for example.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wonder how much was a plan and how much was hope; I am not sure he counted on Uriel being killed, for example.

Difficult to say. To hear Amenadiel, Lucifer and Mom talk of him, he may not care that much for any of them - but that is a very biased and warped perspective. We simply don't know if he is unconcerned/uncaring, or if he predicted that this is the best path - i.e. all other alternatives were even worse. Or maybe he is a jerk, and this plan is a way to winnow through his legion of children.

GW

[Avilan the Grey]

Difficult to say. To hear Amenadiel, Lucifer and Mom talk of him, he may not care that much for any of them - but that is a very biased and warped perspective. We simply don't know if he is unconcerned/uncaring, or if he predicted that this is the best path - i.e. all other alternatives were even worse. Or maybe he is a jerk, and this plan is a way to winnow through his legion of children.

GW

Well it does seem Doc was right, and Luci is one of his favorite children after all.
I must say that Lucifer is one of the few shows (just like Supergirl) where the main character actually is my favorite character. My least favorite is actually Mom, spectacular behind aside. Second least favorite is Amenadiel.

Also, he might have counted on Uriel being hurt or defeated, but not with that specific weapon that wipes him out of existence instead of just sending him bodyless back to the Silver City.

[random11]

???

He is quite clearly NOT absent, if he did send Amenadiel in a mission some 30 years back. If what you mean is "why isn't he interfering in the plot?", I'd point out to Chloe. That tells me that God probably has an even better version of the omniscience of his dead son, which means he can just make small changes to his advantage far enough in the past.

In fact, I am reminded of Pratchett & Gaiman: you can't beat God at poker, because he's playing solitaire.


I'll try to explain what I meant.

Needless to say, using God as a character in a story brings many problems.
It's not surprising that in most stories God is absent as an active character, and this is acknowledged by the story.

In Lucifer, God did not appear most of the story, which was fine.
When Uriel entered the story it started to raise a problem about the involvement of God, but it was still brushed away and moved the focus somewhere else.

Now God is actively in this story, playing chess with all the characters as pieces. But instead of answering questions, that only raises the problem of why he isn't more active.
Did he send Uriel knowing he will die?
If "mother" is a problem for him, why isn't he doing more?
Why was Amenadiel punished, and why couldn't he get direct answers from God?
What's the point of planning all this 30 years ahead of time?

If it was just human characters,most of these questions could have been answered with "test of faith" or something like that, but these are all angels who used to have direct contact with God.

So the problem as I see it is that God needs to be either absent, or active. And if he is doing things half way, at least someone needs to explain why. But if even the angels can't explain, how are we supposed to know what's going on?

[Olinser]

I'll try to explain what I meant.

Needless to say, using God as a character in a story brings many problems.
It's not surprising that in most stories God is absent as an active character, and this is acknowledged by the story.

In Lucifer, God did not appear most of the story, which was fine.
When Uriel entered the story it started to raise a problem about the involvement of God, but it was still brushed away and moved the focus somewhere else.

Now God is actively in this story, playing chess with all the characters as pieces. But instead of answering questions, that only raises the problem of why he isn't more active.
Did he send Uriel knowing he will die?
If "mother" is a problem for him, why isn't he doing more?
Why was Amenadiel punished, and why couldn't he get direct answers from God?
What's the point of planning all this 30 years ahead of time?

If it was just human characters,most of these questions could have been answered with "test of faith" or something like that, but these are all angels who used to have direct contact with God.

So the problem as I see it is that God needs to be either absent, or active. And if he is doing things half way, at least someone needs to explain why. But if even the angels can't explain, how are we supposed to know what's going on?

Why should he be explaining his plan in detail, and who exactly do you think deserves that explanation? He's God, he doesn't answer to anybody. His plan clearly seems to be going well, so why should he need to interfere directly? Whatever his end goal is, everything seems to be proceeding as planned, so why should he need to interfere further? When everything is going as planned you sit back, have a drink, and watch it play out, you don't fiddle with it more.

There's no 'test of faith' involved. Lucifer and Amenadiel simply do not need to know what his plan is, and we have no idea if he has explained his plan to any other angels. Uriel seemed to be acting on his own, rather than under instruction.

As for the mother, what exactly makes you think she IS a problem for him? She's done almost literally nothing except try to talk up Amenadiel and Lucifer and allow a tiny handful of humans to be killed by the Blade. So far she's a small annoyance and her presence seems to be good for Lucifer's growth and self-examination. Frankly she's done nothing that would warrant action even by the other angels, much less direct action by God.

Amenadiel at least seems to believe that his de-powering was a result of his actions rather than a direct punishment by God. As I've previously pointed out, he directly caused the deaths of a decent number of innocent humans and has been consorting with a demon, and he explicitly feels extraordinarily guilty about his actions. I personally am leaning towards his de-powering to be unconsciously self-inflicted.

[random11]

Why should he be explaining his plan in detail, and who exactly do you think deserves that explanation? He's God, he doesn't answer to anybody. His plan clearly seems to be going well, so why should he need to interfere directly? Whatever his end goal is, everything seems to be proceeding as planned, so why should he need to interfere further? When everything is going as planned you sit back, have a drink, and watch it play out, you don't fiddle with it more.

Either put him as a character and establish SOMETHING about him, or move him to the side and confirm that he is gone and the plot moves without him.

This is not a theological debate, this is a story.
The reason that he doesn't need to explain, and everything will work as he planned is what makes God a bad character in a series.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Either put him as a character and establish SOMETHING about him, or move him to the side and confirm that he is gone and the plot moves without him.

They have revealed about as much about his machinations as they have about Mom's. We know they are both up to something, we know one chooses to lie about it and the other to say nothing (that is, unless you believe that Mom really just wants to put her family back together, but I don't buy that for a second). That is plenty, for secondary characters that exist mostly to provide the main character with conflict.

Heck, plenty of stories have an inscrutable council of vagueness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheOmniScientCouncilOfVagueness) driving the plot forward. This is the same, except it's a council of one.

GW

[Olinser]

Either put him as a character and establish SOMETHING about him, or move him to the side and confirm that he is gone and the plot moves without him.

This is not a theological debate, this is a story.
The reason that he doesn't need to explain, and everything will work as he planned is what makes God a bad character in a series.

What makes God a bad character in a series is putting him as a physical character in a series. All tension disappears because he's freaking God. If he's directly involved on a daily basis there is no conflict and no threat that doesn't actually threaten God himself. Having it like this is much, MUCH better from a story perspective.

We do know quite a bit about him. We know his relationship with Amenadiel, Lucifer and the mother, we know he has a plan, and we know that it involves Chloe.

Even if he weren't God and just somebody we have had passing mention of being in charge, we don't NEED to know what the plan is, because Lucifer doesn't need to know what the plan is. I'm sure the bigger goals of his plan will be revealed soon enough, right now its enough to know that he's around and that he has a plan that directly involves Chloe and Lucifer.

[Brother Oni]

It could be that God is simply too powerful to interfere directly without causing accidental collateral damage. Considering that the mere sight of the divine causes humanity to go loopy, God's mere presence on Earth would most likely completely destabilise the situation, much like using a low yield nuclear device to excavate a fossil.


Absent he is not. He has a plan.

And it appears to be a very cunning one. :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

It might be simpler than that. The only way to interact directly is to go here, and then you lose a lot of power.

[Quild]

What makes God a bad character in a series is putting him as a physical character in a series. All tension disappears because he's freaking God. If he's directly involved on a daily basis there is no conflict and no threat that doesn't actually threaten God himself. Having it like this is much, MUCH better from a story perspective.

I think that Bruce Almighty worked pretty well. The overflow of requests and the collateral damages of using powers to answer/solve to anything were shown as problematics.

If you add to that, that God wants human to act with free-will and you want them to have Faith rather than knowing, it explains why God doesn't answer.

I'm not a believer myself, but I see how no manifestation of God does not prove he does not exist. Double negative, it's tricky.

Also... (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2560)

[random11]

I think that Bruce Almighty worked pretty well. The overflow of requests and the collateral damages of using powers to answer/solve to anything were shown as problematics.

If you add to that, that God wants human to act with free-will and you want them to have Faith rather than knowing, it explains why God doesn't answer.

I'm not a believer myself, but I see how no manifestation of God does not prove he does not exist. Double negative, it's tricky.

Also... (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2560)

But it's not humans we're talking about.
This entire plan (whatever it is) has to do with Mother, Lucifer and/or Amenadiel, where Chloe was a created as part of the plan.
None of the characters have any issue with faith in God since they all talked and were given orders or deals from him.

Of course having God as an active character is a bad idea for obvious reasons, but I do think it should have been handled in a similar way like in the comic: God is suddenly gone, and that also causes a chain of events that angels don't have specific orders anymore, leaving decisions like Uriel trying to kill mother as a legitimate option.

It can still be a long term plan, but he has to either be active, or the story needs to explain why he isn't active.

[Olinser]

All right so its back after the break.

I'm getting a little annoyed that they keep hammering the reset button on Lucifer/Chloe. I mean UST is fine, but enough with throwing them together and taking it back.

Other than that not much information. The only thing I can really think of right now is that the Mother wants Lucifer/Chloe to get together, then she reveals that Chloe was put there by God, and it pisses Lucifer enough to storm back to heaven.

But that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Lucifer doesn't even have his wings and he wasn't even a match for the weakest Angel - Uriel. So I'm really not sure exactly what the Mother's plan is once they get there. Amenadiel and Lucifer can't even take on a single Angel alone, never mind God. So clearly something else is going on.

[Pronounceable]

Maze, Trixie and Doctor keep stealing the show somehow and Dan has been on a roll since he took his improv classes. The crazed stalker is also probably the best new thing since ME girl (who's been sorely lacking), I wouldn't mind seeing more of her. The meta stuff with mom is fine too. But I still couldn't care less about the Detective and Lucy is getting less and less interesting as their relationship progresses and threatens to morph into another boring tv romance. Will call it reverse moonlighting curse. And weekly murder stuff is kinda blargh.

[Millstone85]

This was a hilarious episode to come back with.

And yes, the "never had a true relationship" angle is a cliché, but it is a good one.

Also... Mom and Amenadiel seem to think God engineered Lucifer's perfect girlfriend, but what if His plans for her have nothing to do with any of them.

I think I read somewhere that in the comics a woman becomes the new God.

[Olinser]

This was a hilarious episode to come back with.

And yes, the "never had a true relationship" angle is a cliché, but it is a good one.

Also... Mom and Amenadiel seem to think God engineered Lucifer's perfect girlfriend, but what if His plans for her have nothing to do with any of them.

I think I read somewhere that in the comics a woman becomes the new God.

Yes, that was

Elaine Belloc. Chloe is a semi-expy of Elaine, but they've already massively diverged from the comics anyway, so I kind of doubt they'll go that route.

[Olinser]

Well on the plus side we actually seem to be making some progress in the plot.

Now that Lucifer knows about Chloe, hopefully we'll find out exactly what the Mother's plan is. I'm still really not clear on it.

I mean its obvious she wants to overthrow God, but the HOW is definitely questionable, given how weak she, Lucifer and Amenadiel are right now.

I'm really not clear on exactly what Lucifer adds to her plan.

[Millstone85]

I also liked the murderer of the week and the thematic connection with Lucifer's thoughts on his relationship with Chloe.

What I found odd is that Amenadiel was only here as a picture.

[Olinser]

I also liked the murderer of the week and the thematic connection with Lucifer's thoughts on his relationship with Chloe.

What I found odd is that Amenadiel was only here as a picture.

Nah, that's actually really smart of the Mother.

She wants to ensure that Lucifer blames God.

Remember, Amenadiel is the one that actually 'miracled' Chloe. Having Amenadiel present at the moment Lucifer finds out could mean he immediately assigns blame to Amenadiel, rather than all of it to God.

[comicshorse]

Its kinda interesting how insecure Lucifer is deep down in that he felt there was no way Chloe could like him without the effect of his supernatural charm

[Millstone85]

Nah, that's actually really smart of the Mother.

She wants to ensure that Lucifer blames God.

Remember, Amenadiel is the one that actually 'miracled' Chloe. Having Amenadiel present at the moment Lucifer finds out could potential means he could potentially immediately assign blame to Amenadiel, rather than all of it to God. Good point.


Its kinda interesting how insecure Lucifer is deep down in that he felt there was no way Chloe could like him without the effect of his supernatural charmIt is also very concerning in regard to his past sexcapades. If he regards his supernatural charm as bypassing a person's ability to consent or not...
Then again, maybe it is only about the "true love" part. Still a very uncomfortable line for the show to walk.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is also very concerning in regard to his past sexcapades. If he regards his supernatural charm as bypassing a person's ability to consent or not...

He doesn't. He is just keenly aware since the previous episode that all of his ex-partners still think it was great sex, and nothing but great sex. He never looked for or got any actual intimacy - but he is now, and he is confused about it.

As to consent, AFAICT he has obtained it every single time.

GW

[Olinser]

He doesn't. He is just keenly aware since the previous episode that all of his ex-partners still think it was great sex, and nothing but great sex. He never looked for or got any actual intimacy - but he is now, and he is confused about it.

As to consent, AFAICT he has obtained it every single time.

GW

In fact not a single one of the women he slept with expressed even the tiniest bit of regret.

Which is completely in keeping with one of his earlier rants about 'the Devil made me do it'. He doesn't make anybody do anything they didn't already want to do, ever.

[dancrilis]

As to consent, AFAICT he has obtained it every single time.


I think this largely depends on how you view consent.

Take the following:
Person 1: They are so attractive and pleasant that anyone would want to sleep with them and they could convince anyone too.
Person 2: They are so attractive and pleasant that anyone would want to sleep with them and by lacing themselves with bio-engineered pheromones which make people around them pliable they could convince anyone too (they apply these treatments for nights out).
Person 3: They are so attractive and pleasant that anyone would want to sleep with them and due to an accident involving bio-engineered pheromones which make people around them pliable they could convince anyone too (this is not something they can control).

Lucifer could be seen as version 3 (as he mentioned when he wanted to turn off his appeal at the party) - but if those he slept with were not in their right minds (even if they would have wanted to they might have resisted otherwise) than does that count as consent or is it taking advantage of someone mentally impaired and incapable of refusal.

I think that might have been the Millstone85 was getting at (could be wrong).

[Avilan the Grey]

Of course it's consent. The argument that it's not does not hold water, because he isn't Starfox. He is just very charismatic. He doesn't do evil magic, of pheromones, or whatever.

Also, I love the return of the show.
Now... what will he do? Maybe, thanks to Chloe being poisoned, he will not storm the gates of Heaven, but go back to Hell. Because there is where the Professor is, and he will get the antidote from his tortured soul.

(I also have a ridiculous but awesome picture in my head of him riding down a highway with Cloe in the seat next to him, his Corvette burning like Crowly's Bentley...)

[Olinser]

Of course it's consent. The argument that it's not does not hold water, because he isn't Starfox. He is just very charismatic. He doesn't do evil magic, of pheromones, or whatever.

Also, I love the return of the show.
Now... what will he do? Maybe, thanks to Chloe being poisoned, he will not storm the gates of Heaven, but go back to Hell. Because there is where the Professor is, and he will get the antidote from his tortured soul.

(I also have a ridiculous but awesome picture in my head of him riding down a highway with Cloe in the seat next to him, his Corvette burning like Crowly's Bentley...)

While that could be interesting, I'm not sure he's CAPABLE of getting back to Hell at this point. Both his wings and Pentecostal coin are gone and Amenadiel is powerless. Unless the Mother has something up her sleeve to get back to Heaven/Hell, the solution to this is going to be Earthbound.

[Kislath]

Well, in the preview we clearly see Lucifer in Hell, walking up behind the doctor and saying "remember me?"

[Millstone85]

I think that might have been the Millstone85 was getting at (could be wrong).It was but maybe we should drop the subject.


While that could be interesting, I'm not sure he's CAPABLE of getting back to Hell at this point. Both his wings and Pentecostal coin are gone and Amenadiel is powerless. Unless the Mother has something up her sleeve to get back to Heaven/Hell, the solution to this is going to be Earthbound.Anyone can reach the afterlife. It is coming back that is difficult.

[Wraith]

( OH! About that-- did you notice that they referred to Azrael as a "her?" Female angels? Really?? GRRR )

It's a shout-out to The Sandman by Neil Gaiman. He created the Lucifer character as he more-or-less appears in the TV show (in that he's a former-angel who got bored of ruling Hell and went to start up a night club in LA, developed fully in comics by Mike Carey), and in that series Death is personified as a perky young woman with a penchant for Goth make-up. She's not an Angel in any way - Death is leagues above almost anything but the other Endless and the Creator itself - but I thought it was a nice touch.


Funny how some conspiracy theorists think this show is some kind of "making the devil look like a nice guy" kind of satanic thing Lol. My grandma enjoys it though, it's been aired just recently in my country.

They tried it over ten years ago when the comics were first published. All it did was generate interest and get them noticed by a much, much bigger audience back then, too. :smalltongue:


"To take over, of courze. The Boss isn't coming back, so it's time we made it offizial, yez? I am the new Prince of Hell. Pleased to meetcha."

I like your idea a lot. Personally though, I think that the show will head more in the direction of the comics....

...In that Lucifer will finally see the wisdom in Father Frank's last words: That His Father has a plan for Lucifer. And that's the last thing that Lucifer wants - leaving Hell, going to LA, railing against the Heavens.... THAT is all a part of the plan! And the only way he can ever be free, is by being Asrael's-blade-dead - and Lucifer is far to proud to accept that - or by leaving God's universe entirely. And when he does that, Heaven sends another Angel to replace him in Hell - in this case, probably Amendial as his current 'fall' echoes that of his brother and would be punished/redeemed in the same way? Just a thought.


I think Chloe STARTED as an expy of Elaine Belloc, but the show has diverged from the comics so much at this point I think its more likely they're going to make her a Nephilim of some variety.

I can't tell you how happy I am to have read that sentence - no one else I know has read the comics AND had an interest in the TV Show, so I've been going nuts after coming to the same Chloe-is-Elaine conclusion :smalltongue:

I still think that the theory has a chance of working out, though. In the comics, Elaine was created by an Angel giving God's power to a human - in that case, God's power stolen from Michael and done so for weird psuedo-Angel-science reasons. In the TV show, it was Amendial (an Angel) who did more or less the same thing, but only because God told him to. There's still room to interpret that as "Chloe was created by an Angel taking power from God and making it into human form", which sets up Chloe as being God's "Grand-daughter" with potentially the same intention as the comics.

It's a stretch, but it's the way that I would like to see the series going - less of the over-done police investigation and more of the exploration of the lore and the story behind the Angels. :smallsmile:

Also, while I'm on the subject of Wild Mass Guessing, am I the only one who thinks that....

.....Lucifer still has his wings?

Yes, we watched him burn them on the beach in order to piss off Amendial..... But a pivotal plot point of the episode is that there was a REALLY GOOD replica at the auction that could have fooled absolutely anyone, except for Lucifer himself. Wouldn't it be JUST the sort of thing that Lucifer would do - tell Amendial that he decided that he didn't want the wings any more and then burn them in order to deface some of God's most precious and beautiful work.... but secretly keep them for himself, because they're HIS wings and, now that everyone thinks they have been destroyed, they're safe again, ready for when he needs them?

[Olinser]

It's a shout-out to The Sandman by Neil Gaiman. He created the Lucifer character as he more-or-less appears in the TV show (in that he's a former-angel who got bored of ruling Hell and went to start up a night club in LA, developed fully in comics by Mike Carey), and in that series Death is personified as a perky young woman with a penchant for Goth make-up. She's not an Angel in any way - Death is leagues above almost anything but the other Endless and the Creator itself - but I thought it was a nice touch.



They tried it over ten years ago when the comics were first published. All it did was generate interest and get them noticed by a much, much bigger audience back then, too. :smalltongue:



I like your idea a lot. Personally though, I think that the show will head more in the direction of the comics....

...In that Lucifer will finally see the wisdom in Father Frank's last words: That His Father has a plan for Lucifer. And that's the last thing that Lucifer wants - leaving Hell, going to LA, railing against the Heavens.... THAT is all a part of the plan! And the only way he can ever be free, is by being Asrael's-blade-dead - and Lucifer is far to proud to accept that - or by leaving God's universe entirely. And when he does that, Heaven sends another Angel to replace him in Hell - in this case, probably Amendial as his current 'fall' echoes that of his brother and would be punished/redeemed in the same way? Just a thought.



I can't tell you how happy I am to have read that sentence - no one else I know has read the comics AND had an interest in the TV Show, so I've been going nuts after coming to the same Chloe-is-Elaine conclusion :smalltongue:

I still think that the theory has a chance of working out, though. In the comics, Elaine was created by an Angel giving God's power to a human - in that case, God's power stolen from Michael and done so for weird psuedo-Angel-science reasons. In the TV show, it was Amendial (an Angel) who did more or less the same thing, but only because God told him to. There's still room to interpret that as "Chloe was created by an Angel taking power from God and making it into human form", which sets up Chloe as being God's "Grand-daughter" with potentially the same intention as the comics.

It's a stretch, but it's the way that I would like to see the series going - less of the over-done police investigation and more of the exploration of the lore and the story behind the Angels. :smallsmile:

Also, while I'm on the subject of Wild Mass Guessing, am I the only one who thinks that....

.....Lucifer still has his wings?

Yes, we watched him burn them on the beach in order to piss off Amendial..... But a pivotal plot point of the episode is that there was a REALLY GOOD replica at the auction that could have fooled absolutely anyone, except for Lucifer himself. Wouldn't it be JUST the sort of thing that Lucifer would do - tell Amendial that he decided that he didn't want the wings any more and then burn them in order to deface some of God's most precious and beautiful work.... but secretly keep them for himself, because they're HIS wings and, now that everyone thinks they have been destroyed, they're safe again, ready for when he needs them?

I actually proposed this same theory when the episode first aired. If that's the case, though, you'd think that with Chloe potentially dying that's when he would pull them out.

[Kislath]

Still has his wings, having only burned the fakes?
BRILLIANT!!! I hope it turns out that way someday.

Okay, so tonight's episode was a fun one. Not as funny as most, but still pretty cool.

[Olinser]

Still has his wings, having only burned the fakes?
BRILLIANT!!! I hope it turns out that way someday.

Okay, so tonight's episode was a fun one. Not as funny as most, but still pretty cool.

Well now they have ANOTHER break until May 1st. Lame.

As far as the wings, I mean as I said I proposed that idea when the episode first happened, but I feel like the most recent episode pretty convincingly proved that is not the case. If he had them, he would have brought them out this episode.

Overall, I was pretty disappointed in this episode.

I mean Lucifer's personal Hell was pretty lame. Killing his brother over and over again is a pretty good idea. But he's NOT killing him over and over again. He's just stabbing him and Uriel literally isn't even reacting to it, showing no sign of pain or suffering or anything at all. Lucifer should have to feel him die in his arms on the floor over and over again, not just pointlessly jab him as he stands there.

Other than that this episode just felt like contrived filler, to be frank. Hey, one of the ingredients is SUPER RARE, so lets spend 5 minutes of screen time in pointless action getting it - and OH LOOK, Ella has a brother!

I mean its moved the story forward but definitely one of their weakest episodes so far.

[Millstone85]

Anyone can reach the afterlife. It is coming back that is difficult.Called it! Although coming back wasn't that difficult. :smallsigh:

Otherwise, this felt like a worldbuilding episode.

So Hell is apparently a series of holosuites, except for torture instead of entertainment. I wonder if Heaven is made of conventional ones.

And you are ultimately your own judge and executioner, albeit on a subconscious level. Hmm, still plenty of room for the guilty to go free and the innocent to be punished.

I also wonder if Mazikeen started out as one of the holocharacters / personal demons, or if beings like her are the maintenance crew.
In addition to Azrael's blade being able to destroy the soul, we now know that demons don't have one to begin with. And so far, having a soul is entirely about being able to afterlive.

Point for not making the soul an exclusively human thing. By comparison, Supernatural established that angels and even God himself don't have one (though He invented them).

[mikelala]

"Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And you are ultimately your own judge and executioner, albeit on a subconscious level. Hmm, still plenty of room for the guilty to go free and the innocent to be punished.

Doesn't seem to work that way. The professor, in life, was utterly convinced that he had made the moral choice. But in hell, he is confronted with his crime, and made to see how he was guilty. Only when he accepts that guilt will he be free - if anything, the more guilty & in denial you are about said guilt, the longer you spend in hell. Only someone that was guilty, and in life managed to thoroughly confront and accept said guilt, will get a free pass at heaven.

That said, there is a bit of a plot-hole: IIRC, it was said earlier that without Lucifer at the helm, no-one was punishing the guilty in hell. That doesn't seem to be the case (although it might explain why the tortures aren't as bad as they could be. Hell does its best, but it does need Lucifer's imagination?)

Grey Wolf

[Delicious Taffy]

I've only seen two episodes so far, and enjoyed them, but I'm pretty sure they were in the middle of their respective seasons. The first I saw of the show was the episode where Lucifer befriends a priest, who winds up dying by the end and really messing with him. The second episode I saw was the one where his detective friend winds up being poisoned and the only guy who knows the antidote is dead, so Lucifer has to go to Hell to get it from him, and has trouble getting back out because he keeps stabbing one of his brothers. I missed a chunk of that second one, but when I came back, his other brother had just finished beating down some hospital employees, and then the detective lady got cured in the nick of time.

The show seems pretty watchable, so I might pick it up if I get back into the habit of watching TV.

[Millstone85]

The professor, in life, was utterly convinced that he had made the moral choice.His following "experiments" were all about validation. He wanted someone to tell him that what he did was only human, to lessen his guilt and shame.


But in hell, he is confronted with his crime, and made to see how he was guilty.So you are your own judge and executioner, but not prosecutor. That could work.


Only when he accepts that guilt will he be freeWill he? This is Hell, not Purgatory. Maybe he would just be left to sit in an empty room, aware that he belongs here for all eternity.
Edit: Wait, I talked about going free first. Saying this to myself, then.


That said, there is a bit of a plot-hole: IIRC, it was said earlier that without Lucifer at the helm, no-one was punishing the guilty in hell.But in this episode, when Lucifer reminded everyone that he is the lord of Hell, he was told that a lot of time had passed and that it might no longer be true. So, new management?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

His following "experiments" were all about validation. He wanted someone to tell him that what he did was only human, to lessen his guilt and shame.
In classic trolley problem, when forced to make a moral choice of value (say you had to save a baby or an adult from a fire, rather than a thesis or a student), even if you make the superior moral choice, you will still have guilt over the result. I believe the professor thought he had made the right choice, and he was attempting to make others see it the same way. Mind you, by the end he was a raving lunatic, yes, and at that point there was nothing rational about his actions.


Will he? This is Hell, not Purgatory. Maybe he would just be left to sit in an empty room, aware that he belongs here for all eternity.
Edit: Wait, I talked about going free first. Saying this to myself, then.
Based on Lucifer's words, there is a way out, but he has never seen anyone find it. Whether he was bending the truth to get the formula, or it really takes that many millennia* to rid yourself of guilt while being tortured, the show does not say.


But in this episode, when Lucifer reminded everyone that he is the lord of Hell, he was told that a lot of time had passed and that it might no longer be true. So, new management?
Maybe - but Amenadiel declined the position, and we have not heard of anyone else taking it up - nor did anyone confront Lucifer or his mom, which suggests that there is no-one in charge as of now.

Grey Wolf

* I believe the show did give us an approximate number of years Lucifer was in hell?

[Olinser]

OK, so Lucifer is back after the hiatus and its a clear line until the end of the season at the end of May, so no more breaks this season.

Also in the interim they have been confirmed for a Season 3!

Lucifer is diabolically (heh heh heh :smallamused:) manipulative in this episode.

So the reveal that Candy was actually just an actress that Lucifer hired to screw with everybody is both terrible and awesome. On a rewatch when he turned away from the mother in the office after saying he was leaving you could see a smug smile on his face when she told him to wait.

Lucifer is definitely plotting something right now and I doubt the mother is going to like it.

[random11]

Here is how I summarize the last episode:

"Oh no, they were almost in a relationship, quick, hit the reset button! HIT THE GODDAMN RESET BUTTON!!
Good, problem averted, carry on advancing the plot without actually advancing anything"

If it wasn't for their fear of advancing anything, I'd say it was an amusing episode, but I'm tired of advancing plot that is only relevant for the last two episodes of a season, which becomes irrelevant one episode later.
This is what happened in Grimm, Once upon a time, and in all the CW shows.

[Pronounceable]

Luci got me good.

Sadly no Trixie. I'd have loved to see what she'd make of Candy. Feels like a massive missed opportunity.

I also want Candy back at some point. She's the best one shot character so far, even better than mad stalker girl with Luci shrine and that was before the ending.

[Olinser]

Luci got me good.

Sadly no Trixie. I'd have loved to see what she'd make of Candy. Feels like a massive missed opportunity.

I also want Candy back at some point. She's the best one shot character so far, even better than mad stalker girl with Luci shrine and that was before the ending.

The problem they're already running into with Trixie is that its now been a year and a half since the show started but the series timeline has only advanced a few months. Trixie's actress is aging up IRL much more rapidly than her character.

[random11]

Season finale

All things considered, it was a good episode.

However, I can't help noticing that the same episode that has the "we have to move forward and not stay in place and repeat the same mistakes", ends with... Well, trying to stay in the same place without moving forward while repeating the same mistakes.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah... the status quo is sort of the recurring problem of those relationship driven cop shows. To really move forward they'd have to bring Chloe and Dan in on the truth and get into more cosmic stuff, but at that point the first 2 season run the risk of becoming essentially an extended prequel to a Supernatural-esque show, which would be weird.

Anyway yeah, I enjoyed the season, Charlotte was a lot of fun, I like the character development we got for pretty much everyone but Chloe. Linda sort of bores me though... That's not a knock on the actress, it's just that her role as human explainer to Lucifer and Maze is becoming more and more obsolete and I don't really get what makes her tick. Season 3 needs to spend more time on Chloe and find a way to move past the status quo but all in all it's a good show.

[random11]

Personally, my favorite characters are Maze and Linda.
Linda's character changed, that's true. But there was a limit of how many times we can laugh at the "she says something but Lucifer understands something completely different" joke, so the character was developed to a friend, and then to someone who actually understands what's going on and an integral part of the plot.

This is progress, character development, and while I understand why it's scary for writers (and some viewers), it's generally a good thing.
If Chloe will know the truth the dynamics will change as well as the cases they work on, but from what I've seen in this season, the best episodes were the ones with the connection between the supernatural element to the case Chloe is working on, when there was no connection, it was no different from any other "cop plus sidekick" show with some supernatural elements as fluff.

Sure, it might fail, but at least the show will TRY to do something different.
Failing is still better than being just another show among dozens with the same shtick.

[Kislath]

God is sneaky.

All of this stuff that happened was His plan all along.

1st-- send Amenadiel down to create Chloe, who then becomes instrumental in the coming events.

2-- Lucifer quits and moves to L.A.. He meets Chloe and otherwise thinks Earth is too much fun to leave.

3-- Amenadiel is sent to get Luci back to Hell, but winds up spending a long time at it, then loses his powers and is stuck in LA.

4-- Luci falls for Chloe so hard that he agrees to serve again in exchange for saving her life.

5-- In so doing, he learns that Ashara has escaped.

6-- Uriel shows up with evil plans to kill Her. He brings the sword of Azrael to do it. You'd think his powers of prediction would have told him not to bother, but oh well.
Uriel's last words are "The piece is here."

What an odd thing for Uriel to say. We know now what he meant, but if Uriel knew that, then once again, why did he try to tangle with Mom & Lucifer knowing that it would get him killed?

7-- Goddess/Mom becomes more and more dangerous.

8-- A plan is hatched to use the sword, but alas, it doesn't work.

9-- A possessed guy shows up, having wandered into town bearing the 2nd piece of the sword, and is apparently guided by God Himself.

10-- Amenadiel has the 3rd piece, and always has, and has conveniently been stuck hanging around with it, unable to leave.

11-- Mom can't go back to Heaven, and won't go back to Hell, and lot of mortals are about to die.
Lucifer assembles the flaming sword, the only thing capable of pulling off the trick that can offer the only real solution, and sends Mom to another dimension, an empty void waiting to be transformed into a new universe by someone with the required power. Finally, she is out of the way for good and hosts of Angels didn't even have to die.

12-- Amenadiel figures out where he stands and where he wants to stand, makes the right choice, and gets his powers back.
Lucifer has learned a LOT about humanity, loss, pain, compassion, and empathy, which I'm sure will all come in handy later, and he even knows a wee bit about love. It was a crash course indeed, but now Lucifer has reached a level of understanding that he never would have gained if he had been tossed back into Hell five years earlier when he first escaped.
He also knows now that humans can survive the knowledge of the true nature of things, thanks to Linda.

All in all, God saw all of this coming at least 35 years ago, and has been stacking up all the dominoes just right to get these results. Uriel's ability was feeble indeed in comparison, eh?