Goliath Bladesinger?

[Fable Wright]

I'm starting a new campaign at level 3, and one of my players new to the system wants to play a Goliath who focuses on spellcasting, but can still hold his own in a fight so he's not ignored by his tribe and has a chance to reform them before they die out, etc. I like his concept and a few of the plot hooks he's given me, but I've run into a snag: The class that best suits his concept is the Bladesinger, which values Dexterity far more than strength.

My question for the playground is, how to I modify the subclass to work with a Goliath to make it less MAD? By default, I'd make Bladesong give advantage on Athletics checks, but what else? Would it break things if I gave him heavy armor proficiency instead of light armor, or a Mage Armor variant that gave 13+STR AC? Let him take a 2-handed weapon (but no shield) as his Bladesinger weapon proficiency? Balance things by making him end his Bladesong if he doesn't attack in a given round? I'm really not sure here, but I definitely want to help him fit into the 'brains and brawn' archetype, especially given that he's willing to forgo an intelligence-granting race for the class. Thoughts?

[CursedRhubarb]

You could let him use a large sized DEX weapon as if it were normal sized saying the racial will let him. That would up his damage a bit and play into the race's strength. Or you could go with ruling 1h weapons count as if they had the finesse feature so he can use 1h weapons like a longsword, but using it with 2h for the versitile would override it and use STR.

[TundraBuccaneer]

I don't think you need to do any thing if he has + 2 dex he can cast mage armour than its 15AC for 8hours and when blade singing its like 16 which is pretty great at lvl3 than he can just increase AC by improving int.
And this is with standard: 15int, 14dex, 13con(+1), 12str(+2).
Although this is not as crazy as the elves get with their 17 in leather armour and 19 in mage armour, but I think it could be fine you don't need +20 in everything especially when you have so many spells backing you up.
I understand the thought that being mad is bad(sorry) but having +3 or even +2 in dex should cause problems. If you really want maybe give him animated shield so it adds to his magical warrior side and because it floats so ''you are not wearing it''.

[ad_hoc]

Why is Eldritch Knight out of the question?

Or Warlock for that matter.

If Wizard is the way he wants to go then you should just let him. If he wants to play against the grain then I say let him. Abjurer with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip would make more sense to me than Bladesinger.

[Nishant]

You could let him use a large sized DEX weapon as if it were normal sized saying the racial will let him. That would up his damage a bit and play into the race's strength. Or you could go with ruling 1h weapons count as if they had the finesse feature so he can use 1h weapons like a longsword, but using it with 2h for the versitile would override it and use STR.

I second this idea, but I would urge him to take the warcaster feat in that case as well.

[Fable Wright]

Why is Eldritch Knight out of the question?

Or Warlock for that matter.

Eldritch Knight is out of the question primarily because his concept was wizard first, fighter second, but a fighter nonetheless. Warlock, despite the benefits of Bladelock, was likewise vetoed as not playing into knowledge skills and intelligence.


If Wizard is the way he wants to go then you should just let him. If he wants to play against the grain then I say let him. Abjurer with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip would make more sense to me than Bladesinger.

I do indeed want him to encourage him to go Wizard. However, he would like to have class features to that play into nonmagical warrior training to fit in with his traditionally amagical clan.


You could let him use a large sized DEX weapon as if it were normal sized saying the racial will let him. That would up his damage a bit and play into the race's strength. Or you could go with ruling 1h weapons count as if they had the finesse feature so he can use 1h weapons like a longsword, but using it with 2h for the versitile would override it and use STR.

Bladesong ends the moment you wield any weapon 2-handed. This is one of the problems I would like to solve.

Let me see if I can rephrase the question.

How can I tweak the subclass to make a Strength-based Bladesinger work?

Respectfully, I'm not interested in solutions that encourage the character to pump Dexterity when his character concept is muscle-wizard. Ignoring dexterity causes problems in and of itself—lower initiative, no chance of stealth, difficulties with AoE saves—and which to focus on is a decision that any melee character makes. At the moment, though, the only option for melee Wizards is Dexterity, which does not fit the player's concept. How do I make focusing on Strength and Dexterity equally viable options for the player?

[RipTide]

You could suggest having him go a Pact of the Blade Warlock instead. It doesn't have quite the spell casting power of a blade singer but you don't need dex at all and has no restrictions on armor or weapon. If your ok with multi classing take level 1 as a fighter for armor proficiency, if no multi classing straight blade lock still isn't bad, you just might want to have him pick up med armor proficiency with a feat if he is going to have a low dex. Its a solid build without to much complexity and no house ruling needed.

(Edit: well bladelock is out so ignore this first part)

If your set on the bladesinger, The Mage armor variant you based on str isn't bad but the reason mage armor is dex based is because of the base game rule that AC = 10 + armor + dex. It might be better to have a mage armor variant that just sets base AC to 14 or 15 and completely forgoes all bonus from dex when calculating AC.

Mage armor cant be used with armor but even still giving heavy armor proficiency for free would be way op especially considering the ac bump form bladesong, so I'd leave that as light, maybe bump it to medium, but reserve the right to nerf that down if it gets out of hand.

As far as allowing 2H weapons, I don't see that as a big issue anyway, it seems more a restriction placed for the aesthetic rather than the mechanics considering that he would max out at 2 attacks each at 2D6+str+int, so max of 4D6+2 x str + 2 x int, if both hit, compared to the cantrip firebolt that maxes out at 4d10+int. Sure you probably get a little more reliable damage out of the 2H weapon but its also melee VS Range (and totals there come to 44 with the 2H compared to 45 with the cantrip).

The end his Bladesong if he doesn't attack in a given round, seems like a pretty small balancing for the armor proficiency bump (if you do that) and even if it is small the allowance of 2H weapons. The only good balance i can think of is maybe have blade song only recharge on a long rest, so always 2 per day. Or maybe change it to have blade song cost a spell slot to activate, say something like 30 second duration per level of the slot.

If you go with the house ruling I'd say always reserve the right to make changes on the fly if things get out of hand, and let the players know you reserve that right up front.

[Fable Wright]

Mage armor cant be used with armor but even still giving heavy armor proficiency for free would be way op especially considering the ac bump form bladesong, so I'd leave that as light, maybe bump it to medium, but reserve the right to nerf that down if it gets out of hand.

This is the kind of feedback I was asking for. May I ask why it would be way OP? At level 3, a point-buy elf with base Dex 15 and Str 8 casts Mage Armor and has a base AC of 16 for his adventuring day (19 with Bladesong), Initiative +3, and can hide moderately well if he has Invisibility up. A point-buy Goliath with base Str 15 and Dex 8 with heavy armor proficiency has a base AC of 16 for his adventuring day (18 with Bladesong), Initiative -1, and cannot hide even when invisible.

At level 8, when both have increased their Intelligence twice and the Goliath has spent almost all his wealth on plate armor instead of extra spells, the elf has AC 16 (21 with Bladesong), 30 extra spell levels inscribed in his book, Initiative +3, and can hide. The Goliath has AC 18 (22 with Bladesong), higher melee damage, and cannot hide even when invisible. If we give him a Strength weapon, he probably also has a bit higher damage or more reach on his attack rolls.


As far as allowing 2H weapons, I don't see that as a big issue anyway, it seems more a restriction placed for the aesthetic rather than the mechanics considering that he would max out at 2 attacks each at 2D6+str+int, so max of 4D6+2 x str + 2 x int, if both hit, compared to the cantrip firebolt that maxes out at 4d10+int. Sure you probably get a little more reliable damage out of the 2H weapon but its also melee VS Range (and totals there come to 44 with the 2H compared to 45 with the cantrip).

I'm concerned about damage at the lower levels, though. At level 8, for example, Firebolt does 2d10+5 damage for the Bladesinger Elf, and the Goliath does 4d6+6 damage, assuming he didn't self-buff, and the Goliath's damage can go higher if he gets a belt of giant's strength or similar.


The end his Bladesong if he doesn't attack in a given round, seems like a pretty small balancing for the armor proficiency bump (if you do that) and even if it is small the allowance of 2H weapons. The only good balance i can think of is maybe have blade song only recharge on a long rest, so always 2 per day. Or maybe change it to have blade song cost a spell slot to activate, say something like 30 second duration per level of the slot.

Hm. The intent was to make it a more even split. Say the elf has AC 21 for the entirety of tough fights, whether he's slinging spells in the back or in melee. If Bladesong ends when he doesn't make an attack, the Goliath would get AC 22 in melee, but 18 AC when slinging spells in the harder fights. Moving it to 2/long rest starts running into the Frenzy problem, though... hm.

[PeteNutButter]

I think you are focused too much on the defense side which has its own problems.

But the offensive side is more my concern. IMO the limit of bladesingers weapon choice was a [failed] attempt to prevent its use with GWM and SS feats. A GWM blade singer has the potential to far out pace a rapier in damage via -5/+10.

Now as for the AC the advantage of heavy armor is it requires no ASI investment beyond starting str allowing for feats such as GWM and or PAM. In combination an end game GWM PAM build could do about 1d10+17 x3 and 1d4+17 average 87 with haste up. All while having a higher AC than any other GWM fighter. Another note about stacking bladesinging onto heavy armor, it stacks with the defense fighting style. Now it's 19+int up to 24. Does the shield restriction stand? If not you can rock 26 or 31 when you cast shield.

The only way the dex bladesinger could get close on damage is go crossbow expert hand crossbow SS feat, but his AC would suffer in the time he picks up the feats and his end game damage is still lower. The str one is fine on AC as long as he gets enough gold which typically becomes useless beyond low to mid levels.

EDIT: If I read the OP correctly the PC just wants to be a melee wizard, not a bladesinger. Does he really want to sing and dance around the battlefield? Just have him go fighter 1/abjurer x, or even a different school he fancies. IMO it's a round peg square hole situation trying to make bladesinger fit his idea, when builds exist already that do it.

[Coyote81]

Have you thought of having him play a Abjuration Wizard.

1 level of fighter then, then many levels of wizard, a 2nd/3rd level of fighter for sweet bonuses and 17 in wizard.

With spells like GFB and BB backed by the Shield spell. he will more then hold his own in combat. But he will be casting spells all the time. He even starts with the oh so nice Constitution save prof. He will need one feat at some point, Warcaster, so he can have weapon+shield and still cast.

Bonuses:
-Strength based
-Wears heavy armor for defense
-Casts spells constantly, and can stat decent melee attacks with various spells for good damage.
- lots of temp HPs, and eventually for his teams as well.

[Fable Wright]

EDIT: If I read the OP correctly the PC just wants to be a melee wizard, not a bladesinger. Does he really want to sing and dance around the battlefield?

Specifically, he was aiming for something similar to the Rage Mage from 3.5e, but that's not an option this edition. Bladesong was the closest approximation we could find, and had several other attractive features besides.


Just have him go fighter 1/abjurer x, or even a different school he fancies. IMO it's a round peg square hole situation trying to make bladesinger fit his idea, when builds exist already that do it.


Have you thought of having him play a Abjuration Wizard.

1 level of fighter then, then many levels of wizard, a 2nd/3rd level of fighter for sweet bonuses and 17 in wizard.

With spells like GFB and BB backed by the Shield spell. he will more then hold his own in combat. But he will be casting spells all the time. He even starts with the oh so nice Constitution save prof. He will need one feat at some point, Warcaster, so he can have weapon+shield and still cast.

This has been bandied about as an option a lot, but the player is not thrilled about the option. Using magic, even melee cantrips, to hit people doesn't fit his character concept well. If push comes to shove, he'll do it, but only after it's shown that other options just will not work.


I think you are focused too much on the defense side which has its own problems.

But the offensive side is more my concern. IMO the limit of bladesingers weapon choice was a [failed] attempt to prevent its use with GWM and SS feats. A GWM blade singer has the potential to far out pace a rapier in damage via -5/+10.

Now as for the AC the advantage of heavy armor is it requires no ASI investment beyond starting str allowing for feats such as GWM and or PAM. In combination an end game GWM PAM build could do about 1d10+17 x3 and 1d4+17 average 87 with haste up. All while having a higher AC than any other GWM fighter. Another note about stacking bladesinging onto heavy armor, it stacks with the defense fighting style. Now it's 19+int up to 24. Does the shield restriction stand? If not you can rock 26 or 31 when you cast shield.

The only way the dex bladesinger could get close on damage is go crossbow expert hand crossbow SS feat, but his AC would suffer in the time he picks up the feats and his end game damage is still lower. The str one is fine on AC as long as he gets enough gold which typically becomes useless beyond low to mid levels.

This is a very valid point. Damage can be strongly mitigated if Bladesong just doesn't work with Heavy or Ammunition weapons, without disregarding the two-handed category altogether. Shields will still be disallowed by Bladesong. This gives the Strength character a bit more versatility in weapon selection and slightly higher damage than the Bladesinger without blowing them out of the water, but in return, the character has the usual low-Dex weaknesses.

Looking at raw damage, the Hasted Dex-Singer hits for 3d8+27 damage while hasted at level 14, plus bonus action cast. The Hasted Str-Singer two-handing a non-Heavy Glaive-equivalent plus PAM hits for 3d10+21 damage (only 2 ASIs have gone into Int to get the feat), plus 1d4+7 bonus action attack. This doesn't seem too disparate. In fact, it looks like the Dex-singer has the better end of that deal, but I may well be wrong. At this level, the Dex-Singer has AC just one less than the Str-Singer's with Mage Armor, as well.

Thoughts?

[Mandragola]

It's sometimes difficult to cater to a player's needs without giving them too much power.

By far the simplest thing is to take a level of fighter first. That really does solve the issue. It delays his spell progression, but that's a reasonable price to pay for proficiencies, a fighting style and con saves. And then he can be any kind of mage he wants, not just the bladesinger, which gets you around the weirdness of this massive 8' guy in full plate dancing around waving a greatsword. Just be an abjurer or something.

And what's the alternative? A bladesinger mage with far better proficiencies and the limitation on using two-handers removed? Well that's just a huge buff to the character.

Personally I would play an EK with this background. A proper wizard who could wield a greatsword... wouldn't, most of the time. He'd be too busy rewriting the laws of the universe and would get bored of lugging around a bit of sharp metal.

[GlenSmash!]

EDIT: If I read the OP correctly the PC just wants to be a melee wizard, not a bladesinger. Does he really want to sing and dance around the battlefield? Just have him go fighter 1/abjurer x, or even a different school he fancies. IMO it's a round peg square hole situation trying to make bladesinger fit his idea, when builds exist already that do it.

You know the Bladesingers don't actually sing right? It's the sword that makes the song as it kills things.

[PeteNutButter]

You know the Bladesingers don't actually sing right? It's the sword that makes the song as it kills things.

Huh... guess it's a bit vague. I've never played one but I've played in two seperate groups with one in the party. Nerds definaately sang. RP it how you like I suppose.
Hahaha
It makes sense "blade song." That is significantly cooler too.

Anyways check the home brew sections there are plenty of rage mages brewed up I'm sure.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Remove the weapon/armor restrictions and the Int-to-AC? Or perhaps take a Valor Bard and change the casting stat to Int.

[Fable Wright]

And what's the alternative? A bladesinger mage with far better proficiencies and the limitation on using two-handers removed? Well that's just a huge buff to the character.

Given the fact that playgrounders seemed obsessed with Dexadins, I assumed that Strength focus and Dex focus were more or less balanced against each other. Was I mistaken?

Either way, I am fine with buffing players horizontally. More options > less options, as long as both have some benefits and some disadvantages.


It's sometimes difficult to cater to a player's needs without giving them too much power.

By far the simplest thing is to take a level of fighter first. That really does solve the issue. It delays his spell progression, but that's a reasonable price to pay for proficiencies, a fighting style and con saves. And then he can be any kind of mage he wants, not just the bladesinger, which gets you around the weirdness of this massive 8' guy in full plate dancing around waving a greatsword. Just be an abjurer or something.

Alright then. The player is not interested in a fighting style and prefers the intelligence save to keep Contact Other Plane on the table. I will continue to point out that Abjurer is an option that neither of us are interested in, but thank you for the consideration, and thanks for the time you spent taking into consideration everything that could go wrong with the changes.


Personally I would play an EK with this background. A proper wizard who could wield a greatsword... wouldn't, most of the time. He'd be too busy rewriting the laws of the universe and would get bored of lugging around a bit of sharp metal.

Sure. That is your prerogative and your character's upbringing. That's not the case here, though.

[Fable Wright]

Remove the weapon/armor restrictions and the Int-to-AC? Or perhaps take a Valor Bard and change the casting stat to Int.

Apologies for the double post, but I missed this initially. This seems strictly weaker than the Bladesinger's 21-23 AC, but the complaint was that switching to Strength made the AC bonus more or less stat independent. What if armor restrictions were removed, but the Bladesong added Strength to AC instead of Int, matching its role as more of a rage mechanic?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Apologies for the double post, but I missed this initially. This seems strictly weaker than the Bladesinger's 21-23 AC, but the complaint was that switching to Strength made the AC bonus more or less stat independent. What if armor restrictions were removed, but the Bladesong added Strength to AC instead of Int, matching its role as more of a rage mechanic?
Allowing heavy armor and stat-to-AC is probably too much. With my proposal, you're basically trading an occasional too-high AC (13+Dex+Int; 23 at max) for a continually high one (18-20). Although I suppose it does leave Bladesong basically useless... perhaps steal a page from Rage, and use a revised effect, such as, uh...

Advantage on Strength saves and checks
Bonus melee weapon damage, as as the Barbarian
+Int to Concentration checks
+10ft movement speed.

Or else I guess step back, and look at what you actually want. A full caster, with an Int focus, and a reliance on basic, heavy melee attacks for offense? How 'bout something like...

Muscle Mage

Muscle Savant: At 2nd level, you gain proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and with shields. You can use a weapon as an arcane focus for wizard spells.

Mystic Endurance: At 2nd level, you may add your proficiency bonus to Concentration checks. Whenever you cast a spell with a range of Touch or Self, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Extra Attack: At 6th level, you may attack twice when taking the Attack action.

Mystic Shield: At 10th level, you may use your reaction to expend one spell slot and reduce that damage to you by an amount equal to five times the spell slot's level.

Battle Magic: At 14th level, when you use your action to cast a wizard spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.