limited Finesse weapons and weapon damage.

[Nishant]

So this has been bugging me for a while, and I'm sure the playground has an answer; but why are there so few finesse weapons, and why are they largely inferior to others? I understand there are some balance sets- I.E, no twohanded or heavy finesse weapons due to the ridiculousness of it. (Though if I remember correctly, there were dex two handed weapons in 3.5 Elven curvesword or something like that?) But even then it's pretty limited; for example, the highest damaging weapon is a rapier, for 1d8 piercing damage, and there are no other damage types supported, excluding the two weapons scimitar (1d6 slashing) and whip (1d4 slashing, but with reach.) Now, I understand that the finesse feature is mechanically meant to give dexterity based builds outside of monk a better chance, but I feel like strength weapons still have a large margin of advantage, without even taking into account that you can use your strength modifier with dex weapons (a fact that came to a strange light with one of my friends playing a half-orc rogue/barbarian).

Now, its not that I'm saying that strength weapons can't be stronger than melee weapons, You can keep your greataxes, greatswords, and halberds, but I'm curious as to why there aren't as many finesse options (i.e a 1d8 slashing weapon, or perhaps a basic bludgeoning weapon, like a sap or blackjack to round out the damage options.) This could easily be balanced out by them lacking the versatile trait, right? or am I confusing the issue?

[X3r4ph]

In my group we do rotating DMs, and since everybody have their own idea of balance, items come and go a lot.
Last time I DMed I added a few "off" weapons. One was a flamberge that was both two-handed and finesse; the other a great spear that is two-handed, reach and can be used by a monk; And chain-sickle that is both one-handed, thrown and heavy.
Powerplay is frowned upon in our group if it messes up the group's balance, but I like to test the system, so I am looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

[hymer]

Dex is generally the most versatile between str and dex. It has a somewhat more important save, it governs the important combat stats AC and Initiative, and not a few skills. There has to be some sort of reason for people to have strength builds, and damage is one. You are simply able to deal more damage in melee with a big, two-handed weapon, and that is intentional.

[SMac8988]

My group allows a little bit of play room with the finesse weapons. The damage can only b 1d8 at max and that can at times be reduced to 1d6 if the weapon wouldn't make sense being that strong.

As of now I am using a short spear as a finese weapon, and a shield. But may switch to two weapons and idk what ill switch to then. Maybe two spears, but that seems odd.

[Nishant]

I understand the monk weapon idea; guan dao(s) and the monk's spade are traditional weapons, I thought it odd that they didnt have at least one reach option.



Dex is generally the most versatile between str and dex. It has a somewhat more important save, it governs the important combat stats AC and Initiative, and not a few skills. There has to be some sort of reason for people to have strength builds, and damage is one. You are simply able to deal more damage in melee with a big, two-handed weapon, and that is intentional.

While I see thats the case, I'm not arguing that, I'm just curious as to why there aren't more weapons that are finesse based; my prime example for an additional weapon being a 1d8 slashing finesse weapon. As for the skill arguement, Athletics arguably has more uses than acrobatics, depending on your DM, and there are a lot of situations requiring str checks, and you can wear heavy armor to help with AC. But again, I'm more than fine with certain weapons staying strength locked.

[hymer]

While I see thats the case, I'm not arguing that, I'm just curious as to why there aren't more weapons that are finesse based; my prime example for an additional weapon being a 1d8 slashing finesse weapon.

I see. Well in that case I think the design philosophy of weapons wasn't to cover those particular mechanical bases. Rather they had a bunch of weapons that would be expected to be included for sentimental reasons more than anything else. And then there was no doubt a concern not to have too large a weapons table. So they made the qualities fit the expectations, and seeing that they had d6 finesse weapons that could be dual wielded and a d8 one that couldn't, they were happy with that.
But I can't be sure, of course. :smallsmile:

[DracoKnight]

If you ever need to make a new finesse weapon, this is a pretty solid break down of how to balance weapons: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?378583-Weapon-Damage-Logic-Hot-to-Homebrew-and-Why-Some-Weapons-are-Trap-Options

[Tanarii]

Probably because the entire point of Str is to give access to weapons with higher damage. Well, and allow HA so you can treat Dex as a dump stat.

In fact, it bothers me that Rapiers do 1d8 damage. The existence of a 1H Dex weapon that does 1d8 means that 1H Str builds are relatively pointless, unless you also want HA. Or to grapple of course.

[DracoKnight]

Probably because the entire point of Str is to give access to weapons with higher damage. Well, and allow HA so you can treat Dex as a dump stat.

In fact, it bothers me that Rapiers do 1d8 damage. The existence of a 1H Dex weapon that does 1d8 means that 1H Str builds are relatively pointless, unless you also want HA. Or to grapple of course.

Welp, you just pointed out that they're not useless. They're also more plentiful :smalltongue:

It allows Fighters to start their career with an 18 AC (chain mail + shield), 19 if they take the defensive fighting style.

I wouldn't say that's useless.

[Tanarii]

That applies to 2-4/7 classes. Fighters, Paladins and 4 Cleric Domains. Meanwhile Barbarians, Valor Bards, non-standard 2H Ranger builds, and Blade-locks all use Str for more damage than Dex.

Okay, so when I write it out, it's kind of a short list. :)

Although, any class restricted to simple weapons also wants Str instead of Dex for more melee damage. Technically. But most of those do damage through other means. It's mostly Life & Trickery Clerics that run into looking at simple-weapon Str builds. (Edit: and Life falls into the HA group.) Although I've seen Str spear-wielding Druids and Warlocks. And Greenflame Quarterstaff Wizards, and especially Dragonborn Sorcerers, since SCAG came out.

Edit2: Of course, if you means Str S&B non-HA, that puts out Blade-locks and probably Barbarians. The Rapier things would mostly only affect S&B Valor Bards, and maybe the rare S&B Ranger. So ... good point.

[JumboWheat01]

That applies to 2-4/7 classes. Fighters, Paladins and 4 Cleric Domains. Meanwhile Barbarians, Valor Bards, non-standard 2H Ranger builds, and Blade-locks all use Str for more damage than Dex.

Okay, so when I write it out, it's kind of a short list. :)

Although, any class restricted to simple weapons also wants Str instead of Dex for more melee damage. Technically. But most of those do damage through other means. It's mostly Life & Trickery Clerics that run into looking at simple-weapon Str builds. (Edit: and Life falls into the HA group.) Although I've seen Str spear-wielding Druids and Warlocks. And Greenflame Quarterstaff Wizards, and especially Dragonborn Sorcerers, since SCAG came out.

Edit2: Of course, if you means Str S&B non-HA, that puts out Blade-locks and probably Barbarians. The Rapier things would mostly only affect S&B Valor Bards, and maybe the rare S&B Ranger. So ... good point.

Nothing is stopping a Valor Bard from being dexterity focus and still using a shield. You can be in light armor and still get that +2 shield bonus. Heck, you could be in no armor. Though that's kinda silly unless you're a Barbarian.

And Bladelocks could probably do better with Dexterity, as they would have to blow an ASI or a level for Medium Armor. Plus they already get sweet 4d10 ranged force damage, pretty much no weapon is going to keep up with that.

The only class I say that really requires strength is Barbarians, that's just how their class feature works.

[Laurefindel]

i wish longsword had the finesse property.

[Tanarii]

Nothing is stopping a Valor Bard from being dexterity focus and still using a shield. You can be in light armor and still get that +2 shield bonus. Heck, you could be in no armor. Though that's kinda silly unless you're a Barbarian.Right. They only need it if they want to use 2H weapons. And on Rapiers: If they had to go Str to S&B a one-handed weapon that was 1d8 or higher, there would be a reason for them to go Str.


And Bladelocks could probably do better with Dexterity, as they would have to blow an ASI or a level for Medium Armor. Plus they already get sweet 4d10 ranged force damage, pretty much no weapon is going to keep up with that.Str Bladelocks are are powerful build. They compensate for lower AC with temp HPs from various sources. In return, they gain access to 2H weapons. Dex is the defensive Bladelock build. Str is the offensive one, especially with feats on the table.

[DracoKnight]

Right. They only need it if they want to use 2H weapons. And on Rapiers: If they had to go Str to S&B a one-handed weapon that was 1d8 or higher, there would be a reason for them to go Str.

Str Bladelocks are are powerful build. They compensate for lower AC with temp HPs from various sources. In return, they gain access to 2H weapons. Dex is the defensive Bladelock build. Str is the offensive one, especially with feats on the table.

This exactly. :smallsmile:

[JumboWheat01]

Unfortunately, they can't go sword and board for more than d8 damage, Strength or Dexterity focus. They'd have to drop the shield to do more than d8 or be on a mount with a lance.

Hmm... a bard following a knight as a squire of sorts... potential character idea, must write this down somewhere.

[Laughingdagger]

Elves should make longsword a finesse weapon with their weapon training.

Elven longsword proficiency is absolute garbage considering it's STR only and elves only get WIS or INT in addition to DEX as racials, making them pretty poor picks for STR classes/roles.

Congratulations you can hold a longsword as any class but not actually use it effectively.

[JumboWheat01]

Rogues get long swords too, and you can't use them to make a sneak attacks. D&D be weird, mon.

[DracoKnight]

Elves should make longsword a finesse weapon with their weapon training.

Elven longsword proficiency is absolute garbage considering it's STR only and elves only get WIS or INT in addition to DEX as racials, making them pretty poor picks for STR classes/roles.

Congratulations you can hold a longsword as any class but not actually use it effectively.

The High Elf can make a decent STR-Based EK.

Using standard array:

STR 15
DEX 14 (12 + 2)
CON 14
INT 14 (13 + 1)
WIS 10
CHA 8

4th level bump STR and INT. 6th bump DEX and INT. 8th take Resilient (DEX). At 10th and 12th bump STR. Bump CON at 16.

[ad_hoc]

If I were to change anything about finesse weapons it would be to remove the Rapier.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Elves should make longsword a finesse weapon with their weapon training.

Change the elven weapon prof to rapier, say they use some kind of thinblades that mechanically correspond to the rapier entry, problem fixed?

[Floorlock]

I ran into a problem using finesse weapons when it came to Matt Mercer's homebrew Bloodhunter class. See...the whole thing is somewhat orchestrated around Geralt of Rivia...or just Witchers in general. However, they are a class that is similar to a ranger...in that they get light and medium armor proficiency and a lot of their abilities are based on wisdom...making them primarily Dex and Wisdom focused as a class. This is all well and good...Since Geralt is both proficient with swords and bows/crossbows...the class based around him should be dex based to be able to do both...but, the single best Dexterity based melee option is the rapier, and that simply doesn't gel well with Geralt's overall concept. He needs longswords, so I just homebrewed the option to wield longswords as finesse weapons...but, they couldn't be used with the versatile property this way...effectively making them d8 slashing weapons. I pained over the decision for a bit, but, after looking through the monster manual...I realized that almost every creature within operated under the same rules: If they resisted one particular damage type, they resisted all three. There are, if I remember correctly, exactly three different creatures that only resist one type of damage. One resists bludgeoning, another resists piercing, and the final one resists slashing damage. After realizing this, I came to the conclusion that changing the type of damage that a weapon deals has almost no effect on any form of game balance...so it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to simply reskin a rapier and give it slashing damage as opposed to piercing. I generally just shy away from giving any finesse weapon a damage exceeding a d8...and I think that it works out alright. If one were opposed to the concept in accordance with their image of a longsword being a large, heavy weapon...you could just reflavor it to be something slightly smaller. At that point, however, we're just getting into the realm of aesthetics and how much fantasy a person considers to be "too much" fantasy.

[Tanarii]

Rogues get long swords too, and you can't use them to make a sneak attacks. D&D be weird, mon.They almost certainly get them because tradition.

[DracoKnight]

They almost certainly get them because tradition.

Which is why I think that they should have been allowed to use DEX with any weapon that they're proficient with, like the Monk (unless it possesses the Heavy property) and get Sneak Attack with weapons that they're proficient with.

[Tanarii]

Which is why I think that they should have been allowed to use DEX with any weapon that they're proficient with, like the Monk (unless it possesses the Heavy property) and get Sneak Attack with weapons that they're proficient with.
If the goal was to limit it to d8 weapons, that'd break it.

If. Totally conjecture on my part, obviously.

[Foxhound438]

why aren't there more dex melee weapons?

Well, to answer you question with a rhetorical question, why aren't there more str ranged weapons- particularly that can be fired more than once per turn due to the system's needlessly restrictive rule on object interaction?

str is better for melee combatants, while dex is better for ranged ones. simple as that.

[Zalabim]

Elves should make longsword a finesse weapon with their weapon training.

Elven longsword proficiency is absolute garbage considering it's STR only and elves only get WIS or INT in addition to DEX as racials, making them pretty poor picks for STR classes/roles.

Congratulations you can hold a longsword as any class but not actually use it effectively.

Moonblades, man. Moon blades.

[hymer]

i wish longsword had the finesse property.


Elves should make longsword a finesse weapon with their weapon training.


Rogues get long swords too, and you can't use them to make a sneak attacks. D&D be weird, mon.

I agree with the consternation here. In my current campaign, the elves make a longsword that lacks Versatile but gains Finesse. I think of rapiers as belonging to a later era, and I don't put any in my campaigns - though I don't outright object to PCs buying them.

[Longcat]

Regarding Str vs Dex:
Str:
-Better melee damage and heavy melee weapons
-Some ranged options with generally poor range
-Better AC thanks to heavy armor

Dex:
-Melee and Ranged
-Better Initiative
-Applies to an arguably stronger saving throw.

All boils down to preference then. Personally, I'd love to have the Elven Courtblade back, as a twohanded, heavy, finesse 1d8 slashing weapon.

[CaptainSarathai]

Regarding Str vs Dex:
Str:
-Better melee damage and heavy melee weapons
-Some ranged options with generally poor range
-Better AC thanks to heavy armor

Dex:
-Melee and Ranged
-Better Initiative
-Applies to an arguably stronger saving throw.

Yep. It also applies to your AC. I'm building a BladeLock right now, and one thing that everyone keeps screaming in my ear about, is that my "AC is too low to frontline."
Orly?
Because I'll have AC18.
I'm taking a 1 level dip into Monk, to get Quarterstaves as Finesse. Using PAM is basically the only way to get "double weapons" in 5e, so it lets me apply my Life Drinker damage to 3 hits. I can also use it as an Arcane Focus. I can't, but other classes could, throw Shillelagh onto it and make it a D8 (I just grab the sucker with both hands)

Sure, I could have taken my first level as Fighter, worn HA, and used Strength. But do I want to "dump" an 8 into Dex? Heck no!

Now I'm catching flak for being ridiculous; I have AC like I'm in plate thanks to At-Will Mage Armor, but Initiative, Reflex, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, and Acrobatics like a naked person. I throw out 2D8+3D6+D4+24 damage in melee. It's not a Fighter, but I can do so much more than they can. I'm off-Rogue, off-tank, and I face like a beauty queen. It's funny.

[Foxhound438]

Yep. It also applies to your AC. I'm building a BladeLock right now, and one thing that everyone keeps screaming in my ear about, is that my "AC is too low to frontline."
Orly?
Because I'll have AC18.


Not to mention fiend warlock THP and fire shield auto return damage.