Dragonwrought Changeling ? (Racial Emulation)

[Gruftzwerg]

After sadly discovering that I can't emulate with Humanoid Shape for Race Requirements (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501733-Humanoid-Shape-for-Race-Requirements), I try to approach my idea from the other way.

Would a Changeling with the "Racial Emulation" feat quality for the "Dragonwrought" (Kobold) feat? Sure he would need a flaw to take 2 feats at 1st level, but other than that, would it work from RAW perspective?

[Inevitability]

I'd say no: kobolds do not have a specific subtype, so a changeling turned into a kobold would not be any more kobold than a spellscale would be.

[The Viscount]

I would say yes (racial emulation says it counts for all purposes but traits) but with caution, because having drgonwrought on a changeling makes cabinet trickster exceptionally dangerous.
May I ask what this is for?

[Gruftzwerg]

I'd say no: kobolds do not have a specific subtype, so a changeling turned into a kobold would not be any more kobold than a spellscale would be.

excuse me, but aren't Kobold considered Humanoid (Kobold)? The subtype is Kobold and would be emulated. Further the ruletext of "Racial Emulation" says:


...assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example).

Imho the second sentence ("for all other purposes") would allow anything that requires race (feats, Prc, magic items..).

EDIT: The Viscount was faster..^^ I guess it's called Swordsaged ?^^

@The Viscount: I am thinking about a cheese optimization build (nothing I plan to play soon I guess if at all^^). And I hope to find my luck here xD
If this (racial emulation thing) works, I'll be posting the base build idea soon ;)

[Inevitability]

excuse me, but aren't Kobold considered Humanoid (Kobold)? The subtype is Kobold and would be emulated.

Er... no. Their type is Humanoid (Dragonblooded) (Reptillian).

[Troacctid]

Well, this would require two feats at 1st level, which you don't normally get. And Racial Emulation doesn't let you use the age categories of the race you're emulating, so one of the primary benefits of Dragonwrought—ignoring aging penalties—would not apply. But other than that, it seems like it would work.

[Gruftzwerg]

Er... no. Their type is Humanoid (Dragonblooded) (Reptillian).

according to d20srd Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) Kobolds are "Humanoid (Reptilian)"

and Racial Emulation gives you the subtypes (just not the traits of them) and lets you count as that race for all other pruposes.


Well, this would require two feats at 1st level, which you don't normally get. And Racial Emulation doesn't let you use the age categories of the race you're emulating, so one of the primary benefits of Dragonwrought—ignoring aging penalties—would not apply. But other than that, it seems like it would work.

the 2nd feat you can obtain with a flaw. The age category bonus wouldn't work, but counting as dragon should work and enable cheese options imho.

[Cerefel]

according to d20srd Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm) Kobolds are "Humanoid (Reptilian)".

The Dragonblood subtype was added in Races of the Dragon.

[daremetoidareyo]

take another flaw and get a dragon tail!

[The Viscount]

Er... no. Their type is Humanoid (Dragonblooded) (Reptillian).

By my reading of the feat, granting the races subtypes and counting as a member of the race are two separate benefits of the feat, not one dependent on the other. Are you reading otherwise?

Gruftzwerg, would I be correct in assuming you are going to use this in conjunction with cabinet trickster to alter self into dragons?

[Gruftzwerg]

Gruftzwerg, would I be correct in assuming you are going to use this in conjunction with cabinet trickster to alter self into dragons?

The original idea, was a Dragonwrought Kobold (see link in OP) with Dragonfire Adept (6) for Humanoid Shape. I wanted to enter "Recaster" Prc (Changeling only) for gish cheese (access to other class spells = Divine Power to push BAB // the quiken ablity of the Recaster is nice to). But I realized that I can't emulate as Kobold to be a Changeling (via Humanoid Shape).
Now I try to approach the build from the other side.

but now I am facing the problem that the Changeling won't count as "true dragon" due to missing age categories and my build idea would rely on the assumption that Dragonwrought Kobolds counts as "true dragons". There are some true dragon feats and cheese what I still can't apply to my build.

So the 1.000.000 $ question. How do i solve this issue if at all? (preferring +LA 0 solutions)
I try to count as (Kobold-)true dragon + Changeling.

Could I go for Dragonwrought Changeling and than use "Racial Emulation" to pretend to be a true dragon? xD (I don't think so, but I try hard to make this build work^^)

edit: a lil side questions: any other way to maybe get "Divine Power" on Sorcerer spell list than Recaster?

[Troacctid]

True dragons are not humanoids, so no.

Divine power is easily obtainable for a sorcerer via the Domain Access ACF.

[Gruftzwerg]

True dragons are not humanoids, so no.

Divine power is easily obtainable for a sorcerer via the Domain Access ACF.

Only 1/day if I recall correctly, which isn't enough imho. Any way to increase the usage of the ACF Domain Access?

back to topic: seems I'm stuck again..^^ or does anyone else have any idea to solve my problem in any way? I always thought that there are legal ways to emulate races to enter PRCs and feats, but seems I was wrong?!?

[Zanos]

People usually buy casting of polymorph any object to laugh at racial restrictions.

[Troacctid]

Only 1/day if I recall correctly, which isn't enough imho. Any way to increase the usage of the ACF Domain Access?

back to topic: seems I'm stuck again..^^ or does anyone else have any idea to solve my problem in any way? I always thought that there are legal ways to emulate races to enter PRCs and feats, but seems I was wrong?!?
Wyrm Wizard or Ordained Champion can add divine power to your class spell list if you do the proper finagling to get in.

[Gruftzwerg]

People usually buy casting of polymorph any object to laugh at racial restrictions.

Does this really work?? Could a Dragonwrought Kobold with "Polymorph any Object" be able to enter Recaster (needs to be Changeling)? Hell, I almost break my neck trying to solve this and the answer is that cheap (= buy a scroll)?



Wyrm Wizard or Ordained Champion can add divine power to your class spell list if you do the proper finagling to get in.

I'll look into them later. thx for the tip.

[Troacctid]

Does this really work?? Could a Dragonwrought Kobold with "Polymorph any Object" be able to enter Recaster (needs to be Changeling)? Hell, I almost break my neck trying to solve this and the answer is that cheap (= buy a scroll)?
Let's say you believe that PAO causes your race to change for the purpose of prerequisites. Okay, so it logically follows that it would cause you to no longer count as a kobold, right? You changed your race. So, since you no longer meet the prerequisite for Dragonwrought (must be a kobold), you would therefore lose the benefit of the feat.

On the other hand, let's say you believe that you still count as a kobold after polymorphing yourself. Okay, so your race is still kobold, not changeling, which means you don't qualify for Recaster.

Either way you slice it, it's a dead end.

[Gruftzwerg]

Let's say you believe that PAO causes your race to change for the purpose of prerequisites. Okay, so it logically follows that it would cause you to no longer count as a kobold, right? You changed your race. So, since you no longer meet the prerequisite for Dragonwrought (must be a kobold), you would therefore lose the benefit of the feat.

On the other hand, let's say you believe that you still count as a kobold after polymorphing yourself. Okay, so your race is still kobold, not changeling, which means you don't qualify for Recaster.

Either way you slice it, it's a dead end.

not really. I only need PaO to enter Recaster lvl1. Once I have the 1st lvl, I don't need PaO anymore to access or further progress Recaster. I just loose temporary Dragonwrought Kobold status, but only temporary for the spell duration to enter Recaster. After the spell ends (& I did my lvl up in the time), I should be Dragonwrought Kobold x/x/Recaster1. (Assuming that the PaO trick does work?!?)

EDIT:
@ Troacctid
Wyrm Wizard seems to be an option too and easier to enter. I guess that I'll stick to that and try to build around that prc.

Thx to all (especially Troacctid^^) who helped me out. At least I learned a few things again =)

[Cerefel]

A Sublime Chord with Arcane Disciple can get Divine Power 1/day and use Lyric Spell to persist it and make that 1/day last.

[ben-zayb]

At the level of cheese others are already suggesting and you are already using, nabbing Extra Spell (Divine Power) shouldn't feel that cheesy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Okay, let's say you start as a changeling, of whatever classes you want. Now buy the services of an erudite or psion with access to the following powers: fusion, astral seed, and soul crystal (from Magic of Incarnum) -- the erudite can learn via power stone or another manifester, and a regular psion can pull the ones he can't get normally into his list of powers known via psychic chirurgery. Ask your friendly neighborhood psion to manifest a soul crystal of both of the first two powers (fusion and astral seed), and since manifesting time is always a standard action, it makes using astral seed while under the effects of fusion a snap. Once you have the soul crystals, go find a friendly (or dominated/unconscious) Dragonwrought kobold to manifest fusion on, and manifest astral seed while under its effects. Now separate or don't, it's your call (but you'll have a kobold stuck in your head if you don't), and immediately off yourself. When you come back, your body will be in the form it was when you were under the effects of fusion, meaning you'll revive with the same stats and will count as both a kobold (with all of the kobold abilities, both racial and class, as well as its feats and skills) and as a changeling with your previous abilities.

Voila, you are now a gestalt+ Dragonwrought kobold changeling.