Jade Phoenix Mage with 9th level Arcane Spells and Maneuvers

[Galacktic]

So! I'm trying to rebuild a character from a straight initiator into this. I feel like it should be possible but I'm running into the roadblock of JPM's two dead caster levels, meaning I have to pick one or the other.

So I come to you all to ask for help! This is meant to be a practical character, as I'm playing them right now. I can worry about feats and stuff unless they're integral to the build.

Illumian, sigils are malleable, two flaws. Stats are: 16, 16, 15, 14, 13, 13. I was looking at a strength/int based rebuild, with Wu Jen (this part is non-negotiable! I like the unique spells on it too much) and Crusader. Anyone got any advice?

EDIT: Oh, and I'm currently level 10, almost 11. I'd like to be mostly playable at this point! If it's not possible, I'd like to lean towards mostly a castery bent.

[Darrin]

So! I'm trying to rebuild a character from a straight initiator into this. I feel like it should be possible but I'm running into the roadblock of JPM's two dead caster levels, meaning I have to pick one or the other.

How about:

Bard 3/Crusader 6/JPM 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM +9

You need to bump up your 1st level spells to 3rd, so Improved Sigil Krau + Versatile Spellcaster or Sanctum Spell or Talfirian Song. (Bard 4 won't work because you need IL 17 when you take JPM 9 and JPM 10 doesn't get any maneuvers.)

[Jack_Simth]

Tough set of restrictions... Jade Phoenix Mage, 9th level spells, 9th level manuevers, Wu Jen... I'm presuming for now that those restrictions are "by 20th". Hmm... how cheddar-tolerant are you?

Wu-Jen get 9ths at level 17.
Jade Phoenix Mage loses two caster levels, so if you're going full Jade Pheonix Mage, then you've got a sharp limit of one non-Wu-Jen, one non-Jade Pheonix Mage level.
Crusaders get 9ths at level 17 (I think). Non-initiator levels count as half for this... so if you're going full Jade Pheonix Mage, then you've got a less sharp limit of six non-Crusader, non-Jade Pheonix Mage levels.
Jade Pheonix Mage is only ten levels long, however. You can't have more than one Crusader level prior to 20th, and you can't have more than six Wu-Jen levels prior to 20th. Even with some skill wonkiness to meet that 9 rank requirement (hire a Bard to Inspire Greatness while a Psion does a Psycic Reformation on you?), you've got a problem after 17th.

If you get into serious optimization (Fusion + Astral Seed with simulacrums and Ice Assasincs you've made, say) you can meet all requirements, but at that point you might as well be playing freeform. Are you OK with relaxing some of your list?

[Galacktic]

Tough set of restrictions... Jade Phoenix Mage, 9th level spells, 9th level manuevers, Wu Jen... I'm presuming for now that those restrictions are "by 20th". Hmm... how cheddar-tolerant are you?

Wu-Jen get 9ths at level 17.
Jade Phoenix Mage loses two caster levels, so if you're going full Jade Pheonix Mage, then you've got a sharp limit of one non-Wu-Jen, one non-Jade Pheonix Mage level.
Crusaders get 9ths at level 17 (I think). Non-initiator levels count as half for this... so if you're going full Jade Pheonix Mage, then you've got a less sharp limit of six non-Crusader, non-Jade Pheonix Mage levels.
Jade Pheonix Mage is only ten levels long, however. You can't have more than one Crusader level prior to 20th, and you can't have more than six Wu-Jen levels prior to 20th. Even with some skill wonkiness to meet that 9 rank requirement (hire a Bard to Inspire Greatness while a Psion does a Psycic Reformation on you?), you've got a problem after 17th.

If you get into serious optimization (Fusion + Astral Seed with simulacrums and Ice Assasincs you've made, say) you can meet all requirements, but at that point you might as well be playing freeform. Are you OK with relaxing some of your list?


Our group is 10th level, and our highest spell known is at 5th. JPM is required for RP things, and the reformat is mostly gonna be a DM fiat thing since I've gotten bored with the last build. I honestly doubt that I'm going to be able to get what I want, but I'll settle for as high a maneuver progression as I can get with 9th level casting eventually.

[Jack_Simth]

Our group is 10th level, and our highest spell known is at 5th. JPM is required for RP things, and the reformat is mostly gonna be a DM fiat thing since I've gotten bored with the last build. I honestly doubt that I'm going to be able to get what I want, but I'll settle for as high a maneuver progression as I can get with 9th level casting eventually.

Given that response, then the practical build would be...
Wu-Jen-9/Crusader-1/Jade Phoenix Mage-10

That'd give you 9th level spells at 20th, and an initiator level of 15 (7th level maneuvers, as JPM doesn't grant a maneuver at 10th). It requires no real cheddar, and can be done with pretty much any race (although if you're actually using multiclass XP penalties, you'll want either Wu-Jen or Crusader as a favored class).

Notes:
1) You can mix Crusader pretty much anywhere into the progression prior to starting Jade Phoenix Mage
2) You really only need five levels of Wu-Jen prior to Jade Phoenix Mage. The others can come after if you like (and you can mix it up more than that with early entry techniques - your hardest one is the 9 ranks in Concentration, which requires six non JPM levels without cheddar).
3) Any full arcane casting PrC for which you qualify can replace an equal number of Wu-Jen levels, so season to taste.

Edit:
Oh yes, and note that Darrin's build (using Sublime Chord to do the heavy lifting for the casting) skips the "Wu-Jen" requirement, but does use a small amount of early entry methods. It looks like you really only need to give on one of the requirements in the OP to get the rest of what you want.

[Gemini476]

(although if you're actually using multiclass XP penalties, you'll want either Wu-Jen or Crusader as a favored class).

It's probably worth noting that as far as I know your only option here is some variant of Human. There might be something with Wu Jen as Favored Class in Oriental Adventures, but I'm not aware of anything with Crusader. Such is the plight of a non-core class.


Also, the -20% XP penalty doesn't mean that much if your DM is also using the full XP-by-CR rules, since the way the rules work mean that you'll basically just be staying one level behind. It's not like you'll actually be missing 20% of the levels by level 20.
You can go pal out with the Wizard who realized that XP is a river and stays out one level behind crafting stuff.

[Troacctid]

There's nothing wrong with illumian. It's a fine choice. I would probably go aeshkrau. +2 CL is great, and the combo ability lets you focus on pumping Strength as your primary stat for better melee effectiveness.

[Gemini476]

There's nothing wrong with illumian. It's a fine choice. I would probably go aeshkrau. +2 CL is great, and the combo ability lets you focus on pumping Strength as your primary stat for better melee effectiveness.

Do note that you'll still need 19 Int to cast ninth-level spells and that the save DCs are still based on Int - all aeshkrau does is change where you get bonus spells.

[Jack_Simth]

It's probably worth noting that as far as I know your only option here is some variant of Human. There might be something with Wu Jen as Favored Class in Oriental Adventures, but I'm not aware of anything with Crusader. Such is the plight of a non-core class.It's also probable worth noting that the Illumian race specified by the OP is some variant of Human (including favored class "Any").

Also, the -20% XP penalty doesn't mean that much if your DM is also using the full XP-by-CR rules, since the way the rules work mean that you'll basically just be staying one level behind. It's not like you'll actually be missing 20% of the levels by level 20.
You can go pal out with the Wizard who realized that XP is a river and stays out one level behind crafting stuff.
It'd be about one level, and pretty much constantly. The OP will already be missing a few caster levels due to the specific build. One level behind means when the party hits 20th and is retiring, he'll be 19th and retiring. That's liable to cut out the option of 9ths given the other requirements.
Do note that you'll still need 19 Int to cast ninth-level spells and that the save DCs are still based on Int - all aeshkrau does is change where you get bonus spells.For a gish who buffs up and wades into melee (and given the choice of Jade Phoenix Mage, that's probably the plan) that's actually fine and dandy.

[Darrin]

Somehow I missed the Wu Jen requirement. Hmmm. The only way I can get that to work...

Race: Any
Stub: Wu Jen 6/JPM 10/Legacy Champion 3/Loremaster 1
Feats: Martial Study (1st), Extend Spell (1st), Martial Stance (3rd), Martial Study (6th), Sculpt Spell (9th), Skill Focus: Know Arcana (12th), Quicken Spell (15th), Least Legacy (16th), Martial Stance (18th), Martial Study (20th)

But there are some caveats... very few maneuvers, and you don't have a recovery mechanic, so they only work once per encounter. And to get a 9th level maneuver, you need an Int score of 24 at level 20 to get a bonus feat from Loremaster. Using Legacy Champion to increase your IL may also be problematic... by my math, Legacy Champion levels 2 to 6 should increase IL by +1.5 (0.5 for each level of Legacy Champion, and +1.0 IL for advancing Jade Phoenix Mage). However, I've seen it argued by other forum luminaries that it should only advance IL by +1.0. (If you don't want to use Legacy Champion 3, you can use Uncanny Trickster 3 instead.)



Another method might be to use Chameleon and spell level shenanigans to get a 7th/8th/9th level slot along with access to the Wu Jen spell list. But you need to use *ALL* of the spell slot tricks to get up that high.

Race: Illumian
Stub: Warblade 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade +2/Chameleon 2/JPM 10/Warblade +3
Feats: Able Learner (1st), Improved Sigil Krau (Flaw), Earth Sense (Flaw), Heighten Spell (3rd), Sanctum Spell (6th), Earth Spell (9th), Versatile Spellcaster (12th), Extra Slot 8th (15th), Extra Slot 9th (18th)

Take the Trickery domain to get Bluff and Disguise as class skills. The other two domains could be Knowledge Devotion, and... something else. Maybe Luck. Or if this is an Eberron game, you could worship the Mockery, take War, and squeeze in three levels of Ordained Champion for Channel Spell. Kill your enemies with channeled transcend mortality. Or switch to divine and turn them into fish (aquatic escape).

Stub: Warblade 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 3/Chameleon 2/JPM 10/Warblade +1

[Extra Anchovies]

Wu Jen 5/Crusader 1/JPM 2/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM +8 ends with BAB 17, 9th-level spells, and 7th-level maneuvers. One of the AbjChamp levels can be swapped for Wu Jen without losing BAB, if you want Elemental Mastery.

[Galacktic]

Wu Jen 5/Crusader 1/JPM 2/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM +8 ends with BAB 17, 9th-level spells, and 7th-level maneuvers. One of the AbjChamp levels can be swapped for Wu Jen without losing BAB, if you want Elemental Mastery.

Hot damn, think that may be the best no frills build I've seen. Most likely going with this! I appreciate everyone's help :)