We just figured out we played ranged sneak wrong, what to do?

[Shocksrivers]

Hi everyone,

as a long time reader of both OOTS and your fora, I thought I would humbly ask you all for help.
We have a very low power-level dnd group, with a changing DM. We started with people who never played before, except for two of use (me for one). Therefore, we had a rocky start using only the PHB, but by now we have been using more books. We have been trying not to switch characters, but we ran into a bit of a bother.

Our group, called the Green Arrow Order, has a ranged rogue. He switched sometimes to wilderniss rogue and a scout-rogue blend, all the while using a crossbow with the aformentioned green arrows. However, and I am reaching the actual question here, we figured out that we were using the ranged sneak-attack rules wrong (you know, the part where you can't flank with a bow or use other peopes flanking for your own ranged sneak attack). Now he wants to change, logically, because his build is basically useless. But if he becomes a melee rogue, we lose the arrows our group is named after.

So, long story short: how do you make a ranged character good, preferably a ranged rogue? Any book is on the table, and even slight rulebending would be okay to keep in line with the character, if it remains balanced. I was thinking of giving him precise shot for free, so that ranged battle at least becomes less feat-heavy.

[nyjastul69]

Is this 3.5 D&D? Pathfinder? Or something else?

[Fri]

if it always work for you, just keep using it, especially if it's consistent and everyone in the game (monsters, npcs) are using it.

Remember, rules written in the book is as arbitrary as any rules you make up yourself. Another human makes it, they think it's cool, they test it a while and it makes sense for them, and print it for the game. It's not god who wrote them in some stone tablet and rediscovered by WotC writers and spread in a holy book. If people in the table is bothered by the rule in the book, they could change it, as long as it's consistent. The same applies on the opposite.

But of course, if your "wrong" rule bother people, or it's obviously imbalanced _for your group_ then change it.

[Khedrac]

Alternatively find ways to enable said rogue to attack flat-footed targets (so high initiative for round 1, and then either look into the sniping rules or get greater invisibility as a regular buff (see the last few OotS strips).

[Geddy2112]

if it always work for you, just keep using it, especially if it's consistent and everyone in the game (monsters, npcs) are using it.
Second this. It is more common than not that a group has a few things they play differently than RAW, but if it is consistent and everyone is happy, just keep doing it. If you really want to change it you can, but if it is working carry on.


Alternatively find ways to enable said rogue to attack flat-footed targets (so high initiative for round 1, and then either look into the sniping rules or get greater invisibility as a regular buff (see the last few OotS strips).

And this-there are plenty of other ways to apply sneak attack damage with a ranged attack. Likewise, the rogue could start switch hitting; use a couple arrows early in combat then go in for melee.

[nyjastul69]

There is a feat in Dragon Magazine #350, Ranged Threat(General) that allows a ranged weapon to threaten out to 15'. This should allow you to flank at a distance and thus sneak attack at a distance. The prerequisites are tough though.

[Shocksrivers]

Is this 3.5 D&D? Pathfinder? Or something else?

I am sorry! It's dnd 3.5 :)

[Shocksrivers]

Funnily, we hadn't really considered to just keep going the way we were playing. It is a little op, but it isn't that bad. I'll ask the rest how they feel about this, thank you

[nyjastul69]

As an added note, you may get more responses in the 3.5 subforum.

I'd keep it the way you have been playing it if hasn't caused a problem yet.

[Telok]

The feats Bow Feint and Improved Feint, read liberally, should work. That just requires a feat and skill rework.

[FocusWolf413]

If the DM is okay with it, I second playing it the same way you've been doing it.

Otherwise, look up the Swift Hunter handbook.

[nyjastul69]

Here's the archery handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) that you might find useful.

[rrwoods]

If you're a rogue I assume you're pushing UMD. A wand of swift invisibility is pretty good for turning on sneak attack.

[Cerefel]

If you can get a hold of the Complete Adventurer book it has the Scout class which can consistently trigger some extra d6s on ranged attacks.

[RedMage125]

Grease is a 1st level spell your party caster can use on an enemy. Even if he makes his save to remain standing, he must make a Balance check to move. And any time a creature must make Balance checks to stay upright, they lose their DEX mod to AC and are thus valid targets for Sneak Attack.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Playing with your current house rule should be fine if everyone is ok with it.

That being said, I do have some other suggestions to improve Archer play in general.

1. Dip into Pathfinder and grab the Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) feat. Does wonders to keep bows up to date on damage.
2. Dex to Damage for bows and crossbows, another way to keep up in damage in non sneak situations
3. Remove Point Blank Shot as a required perk for Archery. Archery is feat heavy as it is, and Point Blank Shot is kind of useless if you're using archery right.

Note all three of these combined (mainly 1 and 2) could get a little nuts. But it would still pale in comparison to the Two-Handing high STR Barbarian's damage.

[gman1553]

We've had several instances in the campaign I am in now where we thought something worked one way (based on recollections from older D&D games) but found out that it was a bit or even much changed in Pathfinder. As a group, we decided that we would continue to use it the way we were.

Just keep in mind one thing....If it works for you that way, it works for the bad guys the same way.

If you like the way it's working great, keep it that way. But the GM should also use it that way as well for his NPCs and bad guys. It makes the use of it more balancing in the game world.

[Flickerdart]

If you feel bad giving him stuff for free, ask him to retrain one of his feats into a homebrewed feat that lets him do the stuff he's been doing. Or take such a feat at the next available opportunity.

[Beheld]

Buy a Ring of Blinking. Sneak Attack from Range whenever you want.