PDA

View Full Version : Warlock and Master Thrower



JellyPooga
2007-07-09, 07:08 PM
Just a thought...

Could Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast) qualify you for Master Thrower and could you apply some of the Thrown Weapon Tricks to said Eldritch Blast?

I realise that RAW it's not permitted, but can anyone see a particular balance issue with it? I mean, you sacrifice your "caster" progression for full B.A.B and a couple of TWTs and feats. Obviously cannot discuss specific TWTs (breaking license and all), but the volley type Tricks are obviously right out, but the other ones that modify single attacks might be valid.

Thoughts? Criticism? Is there something I've completely overlooked?

Quietus
2007-07-09, 07:34 PM
Just a thought...

Could Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast) qualify you for Master Thrower and could you apply some of the Thrown Weapon Tricks to said Eldritch Blast?

I realise that RAW it's not permitted, but can anyone see a particular balance issue with it? I mean, you sacrifice your "caster" progression for full B.A.B and a couple of TWTs and feats. Obviously cannot discuss specific TWTs (breaking license and all), but the volley type Tricks are obviously right out, but the other ones that modify single attacks might be valid.

Thoughts? Criticism? Is there something I've completely overlooked?

Don't the Master Thrower things require that you use a thrown weapon to get the benefits? Eldritch Blast is a ray, if memory serves, not a thrown weapon.

JellyPooga
2007-07-09, 07:38 PM
Don't the Master Thrower things require that you use a thrown weapon to get the benefits? Eldritch Blast is a ray, if memory serves, not a thrown weapon.

Yeah, that's why RAW it's not allowed, but if you were to overlook that particular point, do you see any particular problem with 'Martialising' a Warlocks Eldritch Blast ability in this way. After all, it is a Weapon-Like Spell-Like ability and several Feats normally reserved for weapon attacks can be applied to it, as can Sneak Attack, so why not Thrown Weapon Tricks or even, for that matter the Exotic Weapon Tricks from the Exotic Weapon Master (though that's more geared towards melee combat than ranged)?

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-09, 07:41 PM
Erm. Master Thrower is all about thrown weapons.

Not only is it against the RAW, it makes no sense.

If you want to focus on your Warlock's eldrich blast that bad (Gods only know why...), homebrew your own PrC.

JellyPooga
2007-07-09, 07:47 PM
I fear I have led you astray...


...I am well aware that Eldritch Blast is not, in fact, a thrown weapon and that the Master Thrower PrC is designed for people using thrown weapons...

...however, if we were to pretend that an Eldritch Blast were actually a thrown weapon for this one PrC. What are the implications in relation to my OP, considering the fact the an Eldritch Blast shares many of the properties of a thrown weapon;

1)Both are ranged attacks
2)Certain feats and abilities (PBS, Precise Shot, Sneak Attack, Improved Critical, etc.) are applicable to both
3)Both have relatively short range

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-09, 07:50 PM
No. You have not led me astray. I know exactly what you mean.

And it still makes no sense.

You don't "throw" an eldrich blast. All of the abilities are geared towards thrown weapons.

How do you even use the abilities that let you throw two weapons at once? Eldrich blast is a standard action, not an attack.

JellyPooga
2007-07-09, 07:57 PM
No. You have not led me astray. I know exactly what you mean.

umm, you do?


...but the volley type Tricks are obviously right out...

That one's right out of my OP and you said:


How do you even use the abilities that let you throw two weapons at once?

Umm....yeah, you don't

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-09, 07:58 PM
That's obviously a case of me being blinded by the silliness of the idea so much that I didn't fully read your post.

:smalltongue:

...What is this thread even about, anyway? You've said yourself it doesn't work. What do you want us to say? "Well done, you've found a PrC that's especially geared towards ranged attacks"?

While you're at it, why not just make your warlock a Kensai? "Screw the rules, eldrich blast is like a weapon!"

JellyPooga
2007-07-09, 08:01 PM
That's obviously a case of me being blinded by the silliness of the idea so much that I didn't fully read your post.

:smalltongue:

Fair doos :smallwink:

Seriously though, what's so improbable about a Warlock perfecting the use of his Eldritch Blast at the cost of it's raw power?

It is a weapon like spell-like ability. In many ways it could be considered to be 'thrown'. Upping its crit to x3 or being able to use deception to mislead your target is not an unreasonable idea. I'd like to know why you think it is.

edit:The point of the thread is to discuss the viability. I'm not after praise, I'm after criticism...which is what I've got so far, but not the sort I was after...so far I've just been dismissed off-hand, I was rather looking forward to something more....explanatory...

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-09, 08:02 PM
Yes, and in many ways a magic missile or a fireball or a scorching ray could be said to be 'thrown'.

But it isn't.

Just because something is like something else does not mean that it is something else. D&D runs on a set of very specific terminology. A thrown weapon is a special type of weapon. A weapon is a special type of object which deals damage.

Something that deals damage is not a weapon unless it's in the special class of objects known as "weapons". Any weapon can be thrown (with a -4 penalty to the attack roll with a range increment of 10 feet), but not all weapons are thrown weapons.

Eldrich blast isn't even a weapon. If you want your warlock to focus on eldrich blast (for some reason), you'll need a PrC or feat chain that focuses on rays, not thrown weapons.

JellyPooga
2007-07-09, 08:15 PM
Yes, and in many ways a magic missile or a fireball or a scorching ray could be said to be 'thrown'.

But it isn't.

RAW you are absolutely correct. If I was after a by-the-book, RAW, unbending discussion, I would have had it with myself because the answer is right there, in the rules in black and white (possibly yellow, given sidebars and things).

I am not after such a strict discussion, I am after an answer that engages the imagination and considers the implications of certain things in conjunction with each other, given certain leniencies.

Given the 'leniency' that an Eldritch Blast (or indeed a Magic Missile or Orb of Acid) could be considered a thrown weapon, is it so unbalanced to allow certain Thrown Weapon Tricks, as granted by the Master Thrower PrC, to apply to them?

In regards to the Kensai thing you mentioned...well, no, you could not apply a spell or spell-like ability to a PrC like Kensai because that is a class that focuses on one particular weapon. It would be a bit like taking the Kensai class and enchanting an arrow with the Signature Weapon ability. However, PrC's like Master Thrower or Exotic Weapon Master, that focus on the skill of using a weapon (rather than an individual weapon), are valid points of discussion...after all, what is so different about targeting a particualr spot you know to cause greater harm (increased crit multiplier) with a thrown knife to doing the same with a focused blast of energy/magic/force/whatever?

The Valiant Turtle
2007-07-09, 08:24 PM
So your real question is more like:

What would be the implications of a PrC for Warlocks that gives them similar abilities with their Eldritch Blast as a Master Thrower gets with thrown weapons?

It's plausible to me, but I think I'd start from scratch rather than base something on the Master Thrower. There are too many things that aren't really applicable. Frankly I think that taking lots of EB invocations will probably be better in almost all situations.

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-09, 08:29 PM
Why do you want to use Master Thrower so much? Why not just homebrew a PrC that accomplishes what you want?

When you start simply ignoring rules that don't suit you, why even play D&D? Play GURPS.

0oo0
2007-07-09, 08:33 PM
To me it sounds like you want to play a Soulbow. It is a PrC that makes a Soulknife into a ranged class. The Mind arrows they make count as weapons, just as a Soulknife's blade counts as a weapon for feats and the like. I bet you could combine that with the master thrower class if you wanted

JellyPooga
2007-07-09, 08:36 PM
So your real question is more like:

What would be the implications of a PrC for Warlocks that gives them similar abilities with their Eldritch Blast as a Master Thrower gets with thrown weapons?


Yeah, I guess...but rather than go over to hombrew and practically write out the Master Thrower PrC, except instead of "Weapon Focus (any thrown weapon)" as a requirement, it has "Eldritch Blast", I thought I'd post here.

After all, Master Thrower is not a 'broken' class and has been extensively play-tested...the purpose of the thread was more to ask whether there was some feature of Master Thrower that would be severely unbalanced were Eldritch Blast be allowed as a 'thrown' weapon, for the purposes of it.


There are too many things that aren't really applicable.

It's a pretty limited PrC anyway. I mean you get to choose, what? Three out of about 6 Thrown Weapon Tricks? Something like that. There's not really all that much, that I see, that's not applicable. But I see what you mean...perhaps I will just go over to Homebrew and cook up something of my own.

Damionte
2007-07-09, 10:20 PM
I went back over the master thrower prestige class. You wouldn't be able to do 60% of the stuff. And half of the remaining stuff doesn't do you any good. Yes you'd be able to make a bluff check to feint, but a having your opponent flat footed to you doesn't really do much for you.

Also you could use the trick that turns your attack into a touch attack, but it already is a touch attack.

The remaining tricks can be done with other feats and or skills. You don't need the rpestige class to do it.

You only have:
Dead Eye shot: Encreases your crit multiplier on your blast from x2 to x3. It's only neat in the prestige class because so many thrown weapons have crit ranges of 19 or better.

Defensive throw: Allows a concentration check to avoid an attack of oportunity. well your blast already does that.

Double Toss/Two With One Throw: You can't duplicate easily with your blast. They simply wouldn't apply.

There are only a coupel you could concievably do with your blast.

Trip Shot: There's a feat for that though. Just take the feat.

Mechanically this just isn't a good idea. Concept wise we can find a better alternative than this class combination.

A soulbow from Complete Psion might be a better alternative. You'd still have to tweak the class though.

You could also just take a couple levels of rogue, and use the skill points to be a bit more accrobatic.

What exactly is the character concept you're going for?

for the original question, would anythign be broken. Yes. As a Gm I would limit the use of all of your tricks to 30 feet. Rather than the base 60 feet that your eldritch blast gets.

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 09:16 AM
Here's a balance reason not to do it... It sucks.

Perhaps it would just be better just to play a normal Master Thrower build with a Fiendish background of some sort, or a Warlock who simply describes his Eldritch Blast as Gambit-like energy weapons.

Benejeseret
2007-07-10, 10:06 AM
Personally I love the concept (maybe not the way of doing it).

It makes me think of Gambit, the old X-men vigilante who infused objects with a blast energy which he then threw. (Edit: obviously I did not read the above post all the way through...he gets points for the gambit reference)

I would employ more in this sense - allow the Hideous Blow to apply to thrown weapon rather than just melee. This way he can charge items and then throw them.

I like the thought of charging bolas, wrapping them around an enemy and then having them blast the tripped monster with dark energy.

It may not be the best optimization, but the fluff and concept are neat. The M.thrower may then still use many of their perks (because a weapon in the truest sense really is thrown) and add on the blast damage.

Bene

Piccamo
2007-07-10, 10:26 AM
While there are all sorts of homebrews you can add to make this work, as it stands it does not. It would be weaker than just playing a standard Master Thrower and Warlocks are not the strongest to begin with.

lukelightning
2007-07-10, 10:26 AM
You wanna use your eldritch blast as a thrown weapon? Go ahead...but then I'd say it's no longer a touch attack.

mudbunny
2007-07-10, 10:33 AM
In one of the Complete books (Arcane I believe) they discuss considering the warlock's eldritch blasts as melee-type weapons and the possible feats that you could apply to them.