Pathfinder: HARD MODE

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Let me begin by saying it's not that I don't find PF challenging. It all depends on the game, the players, and the adventure. I'm not interested in E6 or something similar (possibly because it screws over 2/3 casters over royally, and those are some of my favorite classes), and I wanted to cobble together something from existing rules. I am trying for a game where players are not limited in their mechanical choices, but where combat is something to be approached carefully; where the familiar and fun Pathfinder choices are available, but combat stress (of several types) are more relevant. The three main alternate rulesets I would implement would be Wound Thesholds from Unchained, and the Sanity and Fear systems from Horror Adventures.

Wound Thresholds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/wound-thresholds-optional-rules): It's a rule I've had my eye on for a while. It changes up priorities in combat (in-combat healing isn't a waste of a turn), but I can see it punishing martials too much. The characters slogging it through melee combat are the ones taking the penalties, while the caster is only loses their spells if they are hit. Still, I like the idea of making not getting hit something important.

Fear (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/fear): Only problem I can see is that psychic casters are either affected too much or not at all by the new fear conditions. The lower ones aren't creature-exclusive, and even the otherwise somewhat beneficial Spooked condition causes psychic spellcasting to shut down. Later on, a psychic caster could be prepared with Remove Fear or other ways of nullifying it. Overall though, I think the tradeoff is fine.

Sanity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/sanity): I'm sure you've all heard of the ways that martials are screwed over by the sanity rules, and even the staunchest Paizo apologist has to admit the truth in that claim. I allow (and encourage!) Path of War, so it's less of an issue. Still, if I don't hammer the sanity button too often, I think this could be a fun rule to play around with.

Any comments or suggestions for other systems to look at? I will say right now I'm not really interested in Spheres of Power. I'm sure it's good, but it's not something I feel I need.

[Endarire]

Why use these variants/subsystems to increase difficulty when you could increase combat challenges/skill DCs without awarding more EXP?

[Secret Wizard]

Wound thresholds don't make sense. HP is not necessarily getting hurt.

[Serafina]

Wound thresholds don't make sense. HP is not necessarily getting hurt.And Wound Treshold changes that, so that hitpoint damage represents actually getting hurt.
Your response is pretty much a non-sequitur, that's like replying to a post about an alternate magical system with "but casters work like this".

Another alternative rule system is "Wounds and Vigor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/wounds-and-vigor)". The main effect is that critical hits and negative energy damage are now much more dangerous, since the amount of Wounds you have is rather limited and thus often quickly depleted.
In theory, you can easily combine the two rule systems as well. In that case, the "Wound Treshold" would be a "Vigor Threshold" instead, and represent exhaustion much more than it does actually getting wounded - you've exhausted so much energy into avoiding lethal damage that you're less effective at fighting.

You might also want to integrate Called Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots), which work reasonably well with both alternate wound systems. If you use a Wound-system, you might even want to rule that a called shot always deals some wound damage. This can either be a small amount to just show that Called Shots are extra-dangerous - or it can be a value based on how well you hit (say, 1 Wound for every 2 your attack exceeded the AC). That'd be somewhat experimental, mind.


As for the problem with alternate fear rules shutting down Psychic spellcasting: It's rather simple to solve by simply declaring that Spooked doesn't impede Emotion components.
Alternatively, you can simply have it apply a penalty to caster level, and could even go so far as to make Shaken and Scared also apply penalties to caster level (say, -2/-4/-8, though Scared can also just shut down your casting entirely if you want).

[Gemini476]

If you want to make "hard mode", why not consider using some of the magic variants from Pathfinder Unchained? It's hardly "hard mode" if you give the players an out through spellcasting, after all.

Limited Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/limited-magic)is the big one, meaning that all spells are cast at their minimum caster level and save DC and thus don't scale (helping keep the quadracity of spellcasters in check).

Simplified Spellcasting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/simplified-spellcasting)simplifies spellcasting by having prepared casters only prepare the upper three spell levels and have the rest be spontaneous. It also makes it so that you have a lot less spells per day, but the only ones they lost were the low-level non-scaling ones so who cares? They're still preparing twelve spells a day at level 20 and can spontaneously cast five, which is at least more manageable than the 36+ spells they'd be preparing normally. (Also, they can cast one more sixth-level spell than usual. Score.)

Esoteric Material Components (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/esoteric-material-components)give an option for paying cash to make specific bits of the spells scale in limited magic (duration, damage, save DC, etc.) - you can also make them mandatory for spells that need material components, meaning that they now need 15gp of "entropic resin" to cast a Fireball!

The Active Spellcasting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/active-spellcasting-variant-rules)rules give spellcasters some options - overclocking spells to let them scale in Limited Magic at risk of mishaps is the big one. There's also spell crits and fumbles if you're into that, though. If using the spell attack rule, be sure to combine it with the crits/fumbles and remember to use the Limited Magic DCs! Can't let the martials be the only ones balancing risk and reward with crits. Consider also using Wild Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/wild-magic-optional-rules)for fumbles. (And when breaking concentration, being dispelled, or using that optional Wild Magic rule to risk a surge in exchange for free metamagic.)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Why use these variants/subsystems to increase difficulty when you could increase combat challenges/skill DCs without awarding more EXP?

Because that would mean players would not be gaining levels, and literally nobody in that situation is happy. Players are pissed they're getting put through the ringer, I'm pissed I have to delicately balance everything.


And Wound Treshold changes that, so that hitpoint damage represents actually getting hurt.
Your response is pretty much a non-sequitur, that's like replying to a post about an alternate magical system with "but casters work like this".

Another alternative rule system is "Wounds and Vigor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/wounds-and-vigor)". The main effect is that critical hits and negative energy damage are now much more dangerous, since the amount of Wounds you have is rather limited and thus often quickly depleted.
In theory, you can easily combine the two rule systems as well. In that case, the "Wound Treshold" would be a "Vigor Threshold" instead, and represent exhaustion much more than it does actually getting wounded - you've exhausted so much energy into avoiding lethal damage that you're less effective at fighting.

You might also want to integrate Called Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots), which work reasonably well with both alternate wound systems. If you use a Wound-system, you might even want to rule that a called shot always deals some wound damage. This can either be a small amount to just show that Called Shots are extra-dangerous - or it can be a value based on how well you hit (say, 1 Wound for every 2 your attack exceeded the AC). That'd be somewhat experimental, mind.


As for the problem with alternate fear rules shutting down Psychic spellcasting: It's rather simple to solve by simply declaring that Spooked doesn't impede Emotion components.
Alternatively, you can simply have it apply a penalty to caster level, and could even go so far as to make Shaken and Scared also apply penalties to caster level (say, -2/-4/-8, though Scared can also just shut down your casting entirely if you want).

Eh, I'm not too interested in Wounds and Vigor. I think it's a bit too much of a departure from the standard game, plus it would require lots of adjudication. I'll keep it in mind, though. My games always use Called Shots, though, forgot to mention that. That house rule for Spooked doesn't seem to unreasonable, though.


If you want to make "hard mode", why not consider using some of the magic variants from Pathfinder Unchained? It's hardly "hard mode" if you give the players an out through spellcasting, after all.

Limited Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/limited-magic)is the big one, meaning that all spells are cast at their minimum caster level and save DC and thus don't scale (helping keep the quadracity of spellcasters in check).

Simplified Spellcasting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/simplified-spellcasting)simplifies spellcasting by having prepared casters only prepare the upper three spell levels and have the rest be spontaneous. It also makes it so that you have a lot less spells per day, but the only ones they lost were the low-level non-scaling ones so who cares? They're still preparing twelve spells a day at level 20 and can spontaneously cast five, which is at least more manageable than the 36+ spells they'd be preparing normally. (Also, they can cast one more sixth-level spell than usual. Score.)

Esoteric Material Components (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/esoteric-material-components)give an option for paying cash to make specific bits of the spells scale in limited magic (duration, damage, save DC, etc.) - you can also make them mandatory for spells that need material components, meaning that they now need 15gp of "entropic resin" to cast a Fireball!

The Active Spellcasting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/active-spellcasting-variant-rules)rules give spellcasters some options - overclocking spells to let them scale in Limited Magic at risk of mishaps is the big one. There's also spell crits and fumbles if you're into that, though. If using the spell attack rule, be sure to combine it with the crits/fumbles and remember to use the Limited Magic DCs! Can't let the martials be the only ones balancing risk and reward with crits. Consider also using Wild Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/wild-magic-optional-rules)for fumbles. (And when breaking concentration, being dispelled, or using that optional Wild Magic rule to risk a surge in exchange for free metamagic.)

Eh, I'm not too thrilled with most of these rules. Simplified Spellcasting I hate, since it gives less benefit to high-level spell users (some of which actually like casting low-level spells, like, say, magus). I'm ambivalent towards esoteric components, limited magic, and some aspects of active spellcasting. I'd have to run that by players to see what they think of it. On the down side, however, I haven't the slightest idea what I would do with other rule systems. Akashic magic and, if I allow it, Psionics don't really have a way to equivocate those rules.

[Psyren]

+1 Gemini's post, though if you're axing traditional casting entirely in favor of Spheres of Power it may be moot.


Why use these variants/subsystems to increase difficulty when you could increase combat challenges/skill DCs without awarding more EXP?

While you could just jack up the CR, I think this is more of a theme question - making a grittier and more lethal feeling campaign or setting, similar to say Hyborian Age., but with PF rules.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

+1 Gemini's post, though if you're axing traditional casting entirely in favor of Spheres of Power it may be moot.

While you could just jack up the CR, I think this is more of a theme question - making a grittier and more lethal feeling campaign or setting, similar to say Hyborian Age., but with PF rules.

I said I'm not using Spheres of Power, but your latter assumption is correct.

I did think of something; if using the combos of some of the Unchained magic rulesets, such as Limited Magic and Esoteric Components... it kinda leaves psychic casters in a weird place, since they don't use material components (since they are purely mental actions). I could possibly exempt them from some of the rules, but still have them affected by fear effects normally? Alternatively, just require them to overclock their spells most of the time and have esoteric components as a backup.

[Psyren]

I said I'm not using Spheres of Power, but your latter assumption is correct.

Oops, misread that line :smallredface:



I did think of something; if using the combos of some of the Unchained magic rulesets, such as Limited Magic and Esoteric Components... it kinda leaves psychic casters in a weird place, since they don't use material components (since they are purely mental actions). I could possibly exempt them from some of the rules, but still have them affected by fear effects normally? Alternatively, just require them to overclock their spells most of the time and have esoteric components as a backup.

Psychic spells still use expensive material components, i.e. anything with a gp cost. All the Esoteric Components have this as well, so you should be good.

"Psychic magic originates from the distinctive qualities of the caster’s composite being, rather than through arcane formulae or rote supplication to divine entities. Therefore, psychic spells never have verbal or somatic components, and have only expensive material components. Psychic spells are purely mental actions, and they can be cast even while the caster is pinned or paralyzed. Focus components work the same way with psychic spells as they do with other spells."

They simply don't have to manipulate/move these components but they still need them.

[Gemini476]

There's some options for implementing Limited Magic with Psionics, I think:


Powers have their ordinary DCs.
Powers have a DC equal to their actual level. i.e. DC 11 for level 1, DC 23 for level 9. (Assuming that you need 19 in a stat to manifest a ninth-level power, and that the +4 stacks on the DC. I'm not familiar enough with Psionics to remember if it works that way.)
Powers have a DC equal to their augmented "level" - i.e. a 15 PP power is "level" 8 and has DC 22.
Powers can be augmented.
Powers cannot be augmented, but can be augmented using esoteric material components - incense, ointments and crystals, perhaps, if you want to stick with the psuedo-new agey theme.
Powers cannot be augmented, but can be augmented using Wild Surge or similar abilities.


Akashic Magic is a trickier question, although to be honest I'm not sure that it scales in a similar enough way for the conversion to be relevant? I'm not really familiar with Incarnum nor Akashic Magic, to be honest. For an extremely cludgy probably-unneccessary way to go about it, how about just restricting the invested "incarnum" to whatever you'd ordinarily have at that character level and limit the save DC to something similar? I dunno. I kind of get the feeling that it doesn't need the limiter, though?

Similarly, Radiance House's Pact Magic doesn't seem like something you could even apply the concept to I don't think.

[Afgncaap5]

My group actually played a game that we called Hard Mode for 3.5.

We pretty much just limited ourselves to NPC classes.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Gemini, I'll keep those psionic modifications in mind. Akashic, though, you are right; it scales differently, and the only way to reduce that would be to limit essence, which unbalances the entire system. Plus, not modifying the akashic classes gives incentive to play them. Kind of an underhanded way to push it, but it works. Although one way I can think of making the Akashic system more in line with the limited magic rules would be to make essence burn easier, but I don't really know how I would implement that.

[CockroachTeaParty]

If you want to be extra masochistic, play on the slow XP progression. It exposes you to nearly twice the danger between levels compared to a fast or medium advancement track, and for the same amounts of gold by WBL.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

If you want to be extra masochistic, play on the slow XP progression. It exposes you to nearly twice the danger between levels compared to a fast or medium advancement track, and for the same amounts of gold by WBL.

That's like, next-level masochism. I'm talking about pinches and you're talking about hot wax here. I like running campaigns at the fast progression, since our group is a bit tired of being stuck in the first 5 levels. I would probably start the campaign around level 4, and go from there.

[Psyren]

That's like, next-level masochism. I'm talking about pinches and you're talking about hot wax here. I like running campaigns at the fast progression, since our group is a bit tired of being stuck in the first 5 levels. I would probably start the campaign around level 4, and go from there.

You could always start fast (until, say, 5-6 or so) until people get enough abilities to have decent options, and then switch to slow to emphasize the danger.

[Snow-blind]

A point with regards to Limited Magic is that it disproportionately hurts weaker styles of magic, without doing much to more powerful styles.

Things that suck badly under Limited Magic:
Most Direct Damage
Most Save or Suck
Most Save or Lose
Most Save or Die


Things that are hurt, but still function reasonably.
Most Save permitting Illusions*
Save AND Suck/Lose (Suffocation, Irresistible Dance etc)
Battlefield Control which loses a lot (but not all) of its punch when saved against (Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud etc)


Things that barely feel it:
Summoning
Buffing
Battlefield Control which gives no save to avoid its primary effect
Utility
Saveless debuffing


If you want to push the entire table into playing God Wizards and CODzilla wannabees instead of more "original" characters, Limited Magic is an excellent way of making that happen. I don't know if your players are doing that anyway, but it is something to bear in mind.

*Illusions are best when your opponent never gets the opportunity to roll a save. Limited magic makes it more binary

[Gemini476]

A point with regards to Limited Magic is that it disproportionately hurts weaker styles of magic, without doing much to more powerful styles.

Things that suck badly under Limited Magic:

Most Direct Damage
Most Save or Suck
Most Save or Lose
Most Save or Die


Things that are hurt, but still function reasonably.

Most Save permitting Illusions*
Save AND Suck/Lose (Suffocation, Irresistible Dance etc)
Battlefield Control which loses a lot (but not all) of its punch when saved against (Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud etc)


Things that barely feel it:

Summoning
Buffing
Battlefield Control which gives no save to avoid its primary effect
Utility
Saveless debuffing


If you want to push the entire table into playing God Wizards and CODzilla wannabees instead of more "original" characters, Limited Magic is an excellent way of making that happen. I don't know if your players are doing that anyway, but it is something to bear in mind.

*Illusions are best when your opponent never gets the opportunity to roll a save. Limited magic makes it more binary

I'd have figured that duration not scaling would hurt buffs and stuff more, but I guess that was wrong?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

A point with regards to Limited Magic is that it disproportionately hurts weaker styles of magic, without doing much to more powerful styles.

Things that suck badly under Limited Magic:
Most Direct Damage
Most Save or Suck
Most Save or Lose
Most Save or Die


Things that are hurt, but still function reasonably.
Most Save permitting Illusions*
Save AND Suck/Lose (Suffocation, Irresistible Dance etc)
Battlefield Control which loses a lot (but not all) of its punch when saved against (Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud etc)


Things that barely feel it:
Summoning
Buffing
Battlefield Control which gives no save to avoid its primary effect
Utility
Saveless debuffing


If you want to push the entire table into playing God Wizards and CODzilla wannabees instead of more "original" characters, Limited Magic is an excellent way of making that happen. I don't know if your players are doing that anyway, but it is something to bear in mind.

*Illusions are best when your opponent never gets the opportunity to roll a save. Limited magic makes it more binary

Hmm. Well, there ARE ways to bring caster level back to full at least, so it's not crippling those areas too much. Plus, in the setting I run, summoning is not a viable build unless you're a Druid, so I'm not worried about that.