Gestalt Characters - Favorite Combos? Experiences to Share?

[Padishar]

We are toying with the idea of creating Gestalt characters (Unearthed Arcana pg.72) for our next campaign. I'm coming up with what I think are some pretty interesting class combinations, but I'm wondering what you all think. Are there any Gestalt combinations that you really like? Do you have any past experiences with Gestalt characters that you can share? This would be my first time playing a gestalt character, so it would be awesome to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note I rarely get the chance to persuade people to use Gestalt so most of this is all theory work.

1. Unchained Rogue/Unchained Monk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svav1AWuOYA)
Nothing more fun than running around the battlefield at insane speeds, dodging all the enemies hits and punching them all to oblivion. Use this as a Goblin or Halfling for extra lols.

2. Alchemist/Gunslinger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OImKPh6N_Lw)
What do you mean we're in Medieval Fantasy? There's bombs and guns EVERYWHERE! This can be even more amusing as a Warforged.

3. Inquisitor/Ranger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4)
When you meet your dedicated foe, no power in the verse can stop you.

4. Sorcerer/Paladin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ)
What do you mean I can sway this encounter over with my winning personality?

I'll add more later if I remember any. :)

[Rebel7284]

Also theorycrafting.

1.
Martial Wizard 5/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +9/X 4
Factotum 5/Wizard +1/Factotum 3/Wizard +1/Factotum +2/Wizard +1/Factotum +1/Y 6

Int to everything, lots of extra actions, free metamagic, etc.

2.
Druid 20 //
Cleric 1/Monk 2/X 2/Fist of the Forest 1/Warshaper 5/Shiba Protector 1/Y 4

Y can involve Chameleon 2, Hierophant 4, or something else.

3.
Sorcerer 20 //
Monk 2/Paladin of Freedom 2/Battledancer 1/Eldrich Master 10/Prestige Bard 1/X 4

[One Step Two]

One aspect of Gestalt I really enjoy, is using the second progression to make use of a monster as a class on one side, giving people a chance to play something a little more diverse.

[CleanDeceit]

My gaming group is small, which means our party is often less than four PCs. We use Gestalt characters pretty much in every game.

Some of my favorites have been:
Shifter Druid (alternative class features from the ebberon setting) prestiging in Moonspeaker / Monk

Factotum / Dread necromancer (roleplayed as Hannibal)

Scout / Handling Outrider (reflavored for a Goblin who rides a raptor named Swifty )

[Arael666]

C.Cleric 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/C.Cleric 2/Contemplative 10//druid 8/Pious templar 1/ Druid 11

Cleric and Druid zilla with mettle.

[Pyromancer999]

I've only done this in a one shot, but Factotum/Warblade is nice for a mostly mundane character that gets a lot from Intelligence. Pretty solid as it can do a bit of everything, and you're no slouch in a fight. If you don't like Factotum 20, I'd recommend substituting all levels beyond 8 with Chameleon for even more versatility(plus the save bonuses to Will saves are nice, as you'll probably use a casting focus as your primary).

The key thing for gestalt no matter what you choose, or at least so I've heard, is to have a passive and an active side. Logic is, you only have so many actions you can use, so even if you have a lot of good stuff to use, there's only so much of it you can make use of. So, it's good to have a side that grants passive bonuses, and another that gives you stuff for your arsenal.

[mabriss lethe]

The key thing for gestalt no matter what you choose, or at least so I've heard, is to have a passive and an active side. Logic is, you only have so many actions you can use, so even if you have a lot of good stuff to use, there's only so much of it you can make use of. So, it's good to have a side that grants passive bonuses, and another that gives you stuff for your arsenal.

^This.

Other general advice:

-If you do go with two active sides, one of them needs to be able to really manipulate action economy to take advantage of all the extra goodies in your arsenal, otherwise it's basically wasted.

-Ability score synergy. Leverage as much as you can into as few ability scores as possible. It doesn't matter how many neat tricks you have if you suck at deploying them due to MAD.

[Draconium]

One aspect of Gestalt I really enjoy, is using the second progression to make use of a monster as a class on one side, giving people a chance to play something a little more diverse.

This is probably my personal favorite thing to do with gestalt. Monster characters are just so much more fun than "normal" characters. :smalltongue:

[Soranar]

Warlock 20//Rogue 20

You need the penetrating strike ACF and eldritch glaive to get a decent damage going. Rogue and warlock abilities complement each other very well. You become the ultimate skill monkey (high damage, high skills, high charisma, many buffs).

For ultimate power its hard to beat factotum // spell to power erudite

[Ualaa]

Our group has used the Gestalt rules for two of the last three campaigns (if you include the current campaign, which is Gestalt).
We're using the Pathfinder rules, as far as classes and such go.


If you're using fractional Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throws, it is important to have full progressions at first level.
If you're not using fractional progressions, then this both doesn't matter and will result in crazy huge numbers very quickly.

Since you only have one set of actions, a Standard, a Move, and a Swift or Immediate, or have a Full-Round action in the place of the Move and Standard, stacking casting/initiator classes isn't optimal.

We're using Dreamscarred Press for Ultimate Psionics and Path of War.


Some of the combos that have lasted a while:
Monk | Cleric - This makes a pretty decent healer, as the monk passively adds a bunch to the cleric.
Ranger | Monk - With the Zen Archer archetype gets a bunch of stuff for an archer.
Soulknife | Fighter - Free weapon from the Soulknife, and the two classes combine for full BAB and better saves.
Bard | Paladin - Full BAB and Saves, very nice buffing.
Aegis | Soulknife - If you like the Psionic route, free weapon & armor, full BAB and strong Saves.
Druid | Rogue - Lacking D10 HD and full BAB, but rather nasty anyway. Full saves.
Barbarian | Psion/Wizard - Full caster, with D12 and strong Fortitude.
Ranger | Psion/Wizard - Full BAB, D10s, all good saves, 6 skills per level plus high INT, strong spell/power list.
Oracle | Vitalist - Very strong healer, divine list and psionics.
Aegis | Alchemist - D10s, full BAB, good saves, Alchemy and a suit of configurable armor.
Oracle | Sorcerer - Arcane and Divine, both using CHA. Good Fort/Will, better HD/BAB than an arcane caster.
Fighter /Aegis | Soulknife/Monk/Sorcerer/Inquisitor/Pathfinder Delver - This one had very high AC.
Psychic Warrior | Fighter / Monk - Aesthetic style and Deflect arrows, melee buffs.

Some of the guys have gone...
- Sorcerer 3, with CHA 11 and the trait for +2 CL... 3x Mage Armor (15 hours) plus 3x Shield.
- Monk x, WIS to AC, plus DEX to AC.
- Soulknife 4, Focused Offense and Focused Defense blade skills... WIS to melee attack/damage and AC.. similar to a Monk dip.
- Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte.

[D.M.Hentchel]

In a game I run, a lot of success has been had with:

Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) / Warpriest (Divine Commander): Focused on spirited charge two-handing a large lance and vital strike (with feats to spare)

Arcanist (Occultist) / Oracle: Lunar mystery oracle combining summoning with long-term buffs.

But yeah, try to be as SAD as possible and designate one active, and one passive or if maybe split both classes passive/active.

[ben-zayb]

Sorcerer 10 / Incantatrix 10 // Duskblade 13 / Rogue 3 / Telflammar Shadowlord 4 - Instead of abusing mailman tactics to get moar orbs, get more teleportation and more full-attacks, and more Arcane Channeling with better spells from Sorc list. You can even combine Arcane Channeling + Dimension Door to nova nearly all of your L4+ spell slots and get a ginormous amount of full attacks.


Spellthief 1 / Wu Jen 5 / Incantatrix 4 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Archmage 5 // Factotum 11 / Decisive Strike, Kung Fu Genius Monk 1 / Warblade 12 - INT synergy, and abuse action economy with Factotum + Body Outside Body (Sp) clones. Infinite Clones via Spell Steal + Silent Image, then recasting it Heightened via other clones' Cooperative Metamagic.

[Inevitability]

I recommend using Arcane Archer or Pyrokineticist. Both are classes that require caster/psionic levels to enter but don't advance them, yet seem insanely fun to play.

I've been considering a killoren battle sorcerer 20//fighter 2/paladin 2/ranger 2/Arcane Archer 10/deepwood sniper 4. Use Charming the Arrow to become Charisma SAD and go to town.

[Âmesang]

So far my only experience with gestalt was trying to stat out Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII (despite having never played it :smalltongue:).

He was a 30th-level sorcerer//dragon clan samurai/exotic weapons master/iaijutsu master/blackguard. So, you know, Charisma to everything. Honestly, I'm surprised I hadn't thrown in the Battle Dance epic feat from DRAGON Magazine #297, and I should have tossed in a level of the battle dancer class had I known about it.

Still, with Epic Divine Might and Improved Iaijutsu Focus he was able to pull off about 500 points of damage with his "Huge" katana, which I was proud of at the time (though he required a quickened time stop to set things up via Automatic Quicken Spell).

[Krazzman]

The pitfalls for Gestalt are failing to choose an active and a passive side and forgetting about the little sentence that if both sides have the same ability (i.e.: Sneak Attack) you only use the faster progression of the two.

For example: Slayer//Rogue might sound nice, getting 15d6 sneak attack and studied target and so on... but in fact you only get the Sneak Attack from Rogue.

That said combinations that I toyed with and saw in play(all Pathfinder):

Magus//Slayer - works really well. The spell list complements for a stealthy assassin.

Brawler//Druid(Nature Fang Archetype) - This is basically a spiritual fist fighter. It's cool, sadly giving up Wild Shape but getting a few more feats off of it.
Monk//Druid it's getting armor bonus in Wildshape... and Shaping into a Bear and then bringing the Kung-Fu action? Just seems silly.

Paladin//Oracle - the standard Oradin just get's more powerful.
Paladin//Bard - another good way to get a better Paladin.

Barbarian//Oracle - Rage Prophet Prestige class without the need to get a prestige class... for a more cast-y feel Bloodrager//Oracle might be better since he will be able to cast in Rage too... as well as bloodline abilities and revelations can have some nice synergies.

Magus//Swashbuckler(Inspired Blade) - just some more tricks for your Magus afaik.

Gunslinger//Inquisitor - This truly has potential since Gunslinger is said to be a One-Trick-Pony getting more skill points and some awesome abilities to deal even more damage or save your hide.
Gunslinger//Investigator - If full Alchemist is not skillful enough for you the Investigator brings some awesome skill-monkey abilities to your boomstick-wielder.

Cavalier//Summoner - this is a bit theory but I think rushing the field with summons... then granting them your teamwork feats... might be good, but I never really looked into Teamwork Feats or Cavaliers... or Summoners.

hope this helps if you play Pathfinder someday.

[Azoth]

A fun one I played forever ago was a Silverbrow Human DFI, Snowflake Wardance Bard//Battle Dancer1/Palandin of FreedomX. The DM let me switch DFI's damage from Fire to Cold without blowing a feat since Silver Dragons have a cold breath weapon.

Optimized Inspire Courage, nabbed Healing Hymn, and on the Paladin side took Mystic Fire Knight Substitution Levels and the Divine Spirit ACF.

The end result was a pretty Charisma SAD striker, that could buff, heal, play face, and pack some utility. He was a blast to play as a peacocking womanizer and rambunctious scoundrel when in town. When angered he showed the might of his draconic heritage by unleashing a frozen hell on his foes.

[lylsyly]

Our little group often plays Gestalt. Since I don't get to make every session (stuck with work one or two weekends a month) and I haven't played since 2nd edition really, been with this group for two months now and I am playing a secondary role. Martial Rogue (SRD) on one side and Duskblade progressing into Swiftblade on the other. Melee/Spells/Thieving all in one! The Martial rogue gives me the extra skill points and class skills along with plenty of feats to build up melee while using my other Feat slots to build up casting. In essence I am the all round pinch hitter. We have a Cleric/Conjurer (why mess with Mystic Theurge when you can keep every thing from both classes), Factotum/Spellthief (again, why mess with a prestige class), and Barbarian/Ranger who always is trying different prestige classes.

We also Gestalt in (on the side, not actually taking up one of the two slots) the Racial Paragon Classes from the SRD just to give the characters a leg up. We always start at level 3 when starting out fresh. We also use 9+1d8 for stats (arranged to suit) giving us 10 to 17 before racial adjustments, and max hit points for the 1st three levels. We usually go up to somewhere between 9 and 12th level before we reboot and start up a different campaign, but we usually don't stray to far from the same classes.

Needless to say, the encounters are adjusted accordingly. We don't surprise 10 drunk Orcs around the campfire, we get surprised by a war party of 40-50, ;).

We have fun, emphasizing ROLE Playing, not ROLL Playing, and isn't that the reason we play?

[MasterFu]

Is Pathfinder content allowed?

I ask because I've been looking at a Alchemist (metamorph)/Sorceror or wizard. On the alchemist side, you'll get a familiar with fast healing 5 that can soak half of the damage you take at lvl 5 and all-day regeneration 5 for you at lvl 13. You can also grab the cognatogen discoveries for +4/+6/+8 to your primary casting stat.

On the caster side, you'll be a caster. I hear that's good, too.

[Padishar]

Wow! Great feedback! I really didn't expect to get so many responses.

The "active vs passive" idea is awesome advice. I'd never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense. Also, I hadn't considered Factotum. I'd always looked at it as more of a Jack-of-all-trades, and therefore (in my mind) wouldn't necessarily be good when adding multiple classes together, but I was neglecting the action efficiency that makes the class so great.

Thank you all!

[Ualaa]

Many consider the Wizard to be amongst the strongest of classes, primarily due to their spell casting list.

The weaknesses include: a low Hit Die, poor Fortitude and Reflex saves, and the fewest skill points per level (mitigated somewhat by their key stat granting bonus skill points).

Gestalt the Wizard with the Ranger.

That gets you: a d10 HD (2nd best), Full BAB (awesome for touch attacks), three good saving throws, 6+INT skills per level (four extra), some bonus feats (many of the Archery style apply nicely to Range Touch attacks) and a slew of other passive or out of combat abilities.

[Hunter Noventa]

My last Gestalt character was Pathfinder Soulknife//3.5 Swordsage. Soulknife makes a great passive side, and the Swordsage really adds to the capabilities and it was just overall a lot of fun to play.

[Azoth]

Another fun one was Archivist/Runecaster//Artificer. He was support and party crafting. There was nothing he couldn't make. Runecaster let him create permanent runes that let him set the trigger conditions on them, so custom magic items were a piece of cake. Best part was that they did not take up magic item slots.

[CharonsHelper]

A Unchained Monk combined with either Druid or (even moreso) the WIS casting bloodline sorcerer can get pretty nuts.

[digiman619]

My last Gestalt character was Pathfinder Soulknife//3.5 Swordsage. Soulknife makes a great passive side, and the Swordsage really adds to the capabilities and it was just overall a lot of fun to play.

Then you might be interested in the War Soul archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/war-soul-soulknife-archetype). It grants martial maneuvers in exchange for psychic strike and your 10th level blade skill. Granted, it uses Pathfinder's Path of War disciplines rather than Tome of Battle ones, but that can be easily back-ported with minimal effort.

[Deadkitten]

One aspect of Gestalt I really enjoy, is using the second progression to make use of a monster as a class on one side, giving people a chance to play something a little more diverse.

That actually turned into a huge mess for the games my group plays in. We always do gestalt and it basically made our DM ban monsters.

[A.A.King]

Personally I like the idea of Bard // Incarnate and giving the Bard the Bardic Knack ACF: Simple perfect skill monkey which doesn't require you to worry too much about the multiclassing / prestige classing rules of the individual table.

[Jack_Simth]

This comes up pretty regularly...

Oh yes, and there is, of course, the general gestalt advice:

1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Paladin//Wizard looks great on paper... but to play him as a Paladin and a Wizard, you need Str (melee), Dex (AC, as you can't use armor), Con (HP), Int (Spells), Wis (Spells again), and Cha (Various Paladin class features). The Paladin//Oracle, on the other hand, is no more MAD than a normal Paladin (Str for melee, Con for HP, charisma for spells and Paladin class features, maybe a touch of Wis for Paladin spells - no need for Dex, as you've got heavy armor proficiency).

2) Watch the Action Economy, look for passive/active combinations. Sure, that Sorcerer//Oracle looks good on paper (ALL THE SPELLS ALL THE TIME), but it doesn't work out that way generally - both classes are competing for the same set of actions, so you're not really significantly better than a normal Oracle or a normal Sorcerer. Something like a Rogue//Druid, on the other hand, is passively adding sneak attack dice to the multiple natural attacks + Pounce that the Druid gets through Wildshape; as a combat druid, it's all using the same set of actions at once. An Oracle//Paladin gets a lot of nice passive benefits from the Paladin side (Divine grace, swift-action self healing, heavy armor proficiency, full BAB, d10 HD), and can do some very active stuff with the Oracle side (spells and/or long-term buffs to wade into melee).

3) Avoid class features that interfere with each other. Sure, that Sorcerer//Paladin looks pretty good... but it's hard to cast Arcane spells in heavy armor, so you need to either give up much of the Sorcerer casting, or you need to give up much of the cheap AC that comes from heavy armor that the Paladin side lets you use. If you use a Divine caster instead of an Arcane one, however, there's no problems casting in armor.

4) Make sure to end up with a nice chassis. Yes, that Wizard//Sorcerer ends up with ultimate arcane might... but it's a d6 hit die, one good save, and poor BAB. You want at least two good saves (and can usually get three), a d8 hit die (although d10 is better), and at least medium BAB. That Druid//Rogue gets a d8 HD, all good saves, and medium BAB. That Paladin//Oracle gets d10 HD, two good saves, and full BAB.

5) The game still rewards specialization. Unless you're short party members, don't try to be a Jack of all trades, as you're likely to end up a master of none. You've only got one set of feats, one allocation of wealth, and so on. A Paladin//oracle and an Oracle//paladin look very similar if that's all you know about them, but they're actually quite different. The first uses Oracle buffs to supplement the Paladin abilities and wade into melee, and picks up feats and items primarily related to melee (so Power Attack, cleave, a nice sword, good armor, and so on). The second uses Paladin benefits to be able to slack off on a few things the Oracle would otherwise need while the Oracle zaps away with spells (so metamagic, extra revelation, Charisma boosters, metamagic rods, and so on). They play quite differently. If you try to be a full Oracle//Paladin, however, your feats and wealth are going to be stretched quite thin, and you'll be less useful at either role.

Edit: Oh yes, and you may have problems obeying all of these completely. That's actually OK. You'll usually end up not using at least some class features - for instance, that Oracle//paladin isn't going to be getting much use out of that full BAB, due to how easy it is to land (ranged) touch spells. It's still a strong combination. All else being equal, the more of these you can follow, and the better you can follow them, the stronger overall the character. However: Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough. You're playing a game with no real stakes. The only true definition of winning is "Did everyone have consequence-free fun?" If the answer is yes, then you won. If the answer is no, then you lost. In the end, your character doesn't really matter: You do, and your friends do. If everyone has fun playing a party of bards that get TPK'd every other session? That's a win. If everyone has fun playing a party of optimized characters that roll over CR+10 encounters? That's a win too. If someone at the table is perpetually bored with the uber-characters, that's a loss. If something in-game breaks a real-life friendship, that's a loss too. Know your actual priorities.

Also, of course, know how your DM handles monstrous PC's in gestalt. In a 10th level game, a Gloura-9/Bard-1//Sorcerer-10 rocks. However, if LA+RHD are... pre-gestalt, then a Gloura-9/[Bard-1//Sorcerer-1] sucks fairly hard compared to a better class-based build. There's also a few variations on a "medium" between the two, and some DM's don't permit monstrous characters at all.

As to things I've enjoyed... I have particular fun playing monstrous characters, especially ghosts. Got one running now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488299-Being-Dead-Sucks!-(IC)).

[Ualaa]

The 'Savage Species' style races, or monstrous progressions, tend to be rather strong in a Gestalt game if they occupy only one side of the build.
In this case, everyone should play a monstrous race to balance things out.

As a DM, it is not that hard to challenge a group who all use 20-point buys, play core book only races, and don't really optimize at all. Neither is it hard to challenge the same group when they all have 40-point buys, all play Planetars and all optimize to a high level.

It is very hard when there is a vast disparity between the power levels of the characters. If you push the tougher characters, the weaker ones either automatically die... or hide because they cannot contribute. If you balance around the lower power level guys, then the higher power guys will be bored out of their minds.

Our group found that having a Savage Species build on only one side of the build, with a full class progression on the other side, results in very strong characters. If some of the players want a monstrous race and others don't, the disparity is vast.

Conversely, if the monstrous race occupies both sides of the build, then in general most monstrous races are on the weak side. However, there are some combinations (generally those who either gain a racial casting progression and gestalt to that class, or those who focus primarily on melee/stealth/anything-that-doesn't-cast) which are decently strong.

These more optimal monstrous races (or Savage Species progressions) which occupy both sides of the Gestalt build are closer to the power of the other characters who go with the progression of two classes than having the monstrous race/progression only occupy one side of the build.

Your mileage may vary.