Twf weapons

[theboss]

Hello playground,
Im changing my character a bit and I was wondering if you guys know some cool weapons to use while Two-weapon fighting. No swords, no hammers, no maces... Really something uniqe that no one would have used while twf. Even something that RAW can't be done is also an option.

Many thanks in ahead

[Jowgen]

Hand Crossbows. Reloading is a manageable issue.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Your fists?
Or if you can get large enough, Halflings?

[Zanos]

There's a +1 LA Race in the Dragon Compendium called the Diopsid that can, among other things, dual wield two handed weapons, getting full benefits for two handing both of them. They give the example of dual wielding greatswords.

[BowStreetRunner]

You could take the Cavestalker PrC from Drow of the Underdark and wield a pair of Spiked Chains.

[theboss]

Hand Crossbows. Reloading is a manageable issue.
Not very unique, sorry that i didn't mentioned before. Looking for melee weapons.

Your fists?
Or if you can get large enough, Halflings?
ahaha, Very smart idea. However, fists seems boring.
How much large must i be in order to do weild them? :smallbiggrin:

There's a +1 LA Race in the Dragon Compendium called the Diopsid that can, among other things, dual wield two handed weapons, getting full benefits for two handing both of them. They give the example of dual wielding greatswords.
Exactly what I looking for. Two handed weapons in one hand. Unfortuntly, my DM is very agaisnt LA races .


You could take the Cavestalker PrC from Drow of the Underdark and wield a pair of Spiked Chains.
No spiked chain. Sorry that i didn't mentioned before.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any other suggestions? Any way of holding two handed weapon in one hand? say a spear?a scythe?

[No brains]

If you also want to go mounted, you could dual-wield lances.

The intriguing part of this an ambiguity in the way this works. See, when you use a lance while mounted, you 'can wield it in one hand'. If you want to read this like a confused robot, technically, this does not change a lance into a 'one-handed weapon' because it does not say 'you may use it as a one-handed weapon'. All it does it let you use a two-handed weapon in one hand, with no modification to its 'handedness'. This makes a sliver of theoretical sense as a lance is designed to use all of the force of man and horse in one strike. What matters more, all six legs of a man and horse, or one extra arm?

Of course, if you're wielding two lances, it will be hard to deflect the books thrown at you. :smalltongue:

[theboss]

If you also want to go mounted, you could dual-wield lances.

The intriguing part of this an ambiguity in the way this works. See, when you use a lance while mounted, you 'can wield it in one hand'. If you want to read this like a confused robot, technically, this does not change a lance into a 'one-handed weapon' because it does not say 'you may use it as a one-handed weapon'. All it does it let you use a two-handed weapon in one hand, with no modification to its 'handedness'. This makes a sliver of theoretical sense as a lance is designed to use all of the force of man and horse in one strike. What matters more, all six legs of a man and horse, or one extra arm?

Of course, if you're wielding two lances, it will be hard to deflect the books thrown at you. :smalltongue:

Seems intersting, what makes it more intersting it is the feat i have "Mounted Combat". So what excatly do I need to do in order to weild two lanes? Be always mounted? Only on charges? Or it can be weilded even on foot?

EDIT : I think I understand, six legs would be the answer? But the problem is that I'm a trip build... Can I trip normally while mounted?
Further, Is there any source of what you said : Could be very helpful to the speed of the throwen bookes :smallwink:

[Extra Anchovies]

Any way of holding two handed weapon in one hand?
Use the most similar one-handed or light weapon.

say a spear?
Shortspear (one-handed).

a scythe?
Sickle (light).

[theboss]

Use the most similar one-handed or light weapon.

Shortspear (one-handed).

Sickle (light).

Ya but as I was saying, looking for something unique... Anyone could weild a sword as anyone could weild a shortspear. Even so, thanks for the comment.

[animewatcha]

You can go with exotic weapon proficiency for bastard sword to wield it in one hand. Then go oversized two weapon fighting so that a second one can be wield in the other hand and count as light weapon on two-weapon penalties.

[mabriss lethe]

A Pyrokineticist's Fire lash? You're not limited on how many you can create, so in theory a one level dip would give you lots of pretty fire to play with as long as you spend two move actions creating them. (or other energy type if mind's eye alt versions are allowed)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Might I suggest a double weapon? I'm fond of the look of the two-bladed sword but the dire flail (ridiculous as it is) has the trip and disarm benefits.

Of note, the TWF rules say that you treat a double weapon As a one-handed and a light weapon for the purpose of determing penalties. It's not stated anywhere that I'm aware of* that you only get the strength bonus values of a one-handed and light weapon or that it's treated as anything other than the two-handed weapon that it is for power attack.

*though I have a nagging feeling I'm forgetting one.

[Darrin]

I'm rather partial to Oversized TWF with dual tigerskull clubs (Frostburn). Similar to a morningstar that gets a bonus on disarm and trips, but has the crit multiplier of a pick.

Speaking of morningstars, Three Mountain Morningstars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18367975&postcount=68) might be worth a look.

If you're going to do something exotic, the jovar (Planar Handbook) made out of gold/platinum (heavy weapon property) or kaorti resin is one of the best two-handed weapons in the game. Use Improved Unarmed Strike as your offhand, and you can still Power Attack with both weapons.

And let me second diopsid... add Cavestalker 4 (DotU) to that, and you can wield four spiked chains as one-handed weapons.

[weckar]

Have you considered twfing shield bashes?

[Telonius]

Drunken Master is a good go-to for it. Use whatever's around as an improvised weapon. Frying Pan/Shovel, mailbox/hitching post, empty ale mug/empty ale mug.

[zyggythorn]

The AEG is your friend!

May I suggest the Gyrspike? It's an Exotic double weapon Long sword/flail. It's got a +2 disarm, and may be used for trip attacks, too! Better yet, both ends are 19-20/x2 for the crit. Meaning some shenanigans are certainly possible with the Aptitude enchantment and Lightning Mace.

Beyond that, I would ask what your build looks like. Any racial freebies?

[Vizzerdrix]

Symbiots. Take the obah blessed template and quad wield little abominations.

[Fizban]

Might I suggest a double weapon? I'm fond of the look of the two-bladed sword but the dire flail (ridiculous as it is) has the trip and disarm benefits.

Of note, the TWF rules say that you treat a double weapon As a one-handed and a light weapon for the purpose of determing penalties. It's not stated anywhere that I'm aware of* that you only get the strength bonus values of a one-handed and light weapon or that it's treated as anything other than the two-handed weapon that it is for power attack.

*though I have a nagging feeling I'm forgetting one.
I have also noticed that, and had a similar doubt. Searching my notes, I find this: "the entry for double weapons says one can 'choose to wield a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it.' " That's at the very end of the description and somewhat implies that attacking with more than one end would make it stop counting as two-handed. The key lies in weather the emphasis falls on the "attack penalties" part of the description, or the "one-handed weapon and a light weapon" part at the end. The one handed+light part is more specific and thus draws more weight.

And of course there's the dozens of printed examples that all have double weapons taking half damage on their bonus attack. While one can claim there's a more "correct" reading that says they should be getting full damage, the fact remains that all WotC employees were running it the opposite way.

Another nice unspecified reading you can use with double weapons works with anything that targets "a weapon." Masterwork and proper magic weapons specifically say they have to be applied to each end of a double weapon separately, but spells and feats almost never do and that "rule" isn't part of the base double weapon rules. So if you cast Greater Magic Weapon on a double weapon it doesn't matter which end you attack with because both ends are part of the same weapon, which has been buffed. Sonic Weapon, +1d6 on both ends. Arcane Strike, +X +Xd4 on both ends. PrC weapon buff that almost certainly isn't worth taking the PrC? Get double.

As for weapons, I like the Quarterstaff myself. No feats required. For something wacky, consider the ridiculous Battlehorn or Fingerblades from Sandstorm. People like to use Spiked Gauntlets to TWF with their TH weapons in spite of the attempt on reducing overall str to damage, but no one ever just TWFs Spiked Gauntlets. Light Picks aren't something I ever see. Hidden blades or bayonets are another nice suboptimal choice. You could dual-wield arrows as melee weapons, drawing a new one every time you hit because they break.

[Darrin]

Of note, the TWF rules say that you treat a double weapon As a one-handed and a light weapon for the purpose of determing penalties. It's not stated anywhere that I'm aware of* that you only get the strength bonus values of a one-handed and light weapon or that it's treated as anything other than the two-handed weapon that it is for power attack.


It's a rules dysfunction. The text that covers damage doesn't directly address what happens with double weapons. Here's what the PHB says (page 134):



Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands (see Light, One-Handed,
and Two-Handed Melee Weapons, page 113).


The problem is the offhand portion of a double weapon counts as both an offhand weapon and it's being wielded two-handed. So... pick which multiplier you want to use? There's no explicit solution in the RAW. As Fizban says, you kinda have to follow the examples, but that's not terribly conclusive. Actually, from a game balance perspective I think it's better to give the two-handed multiplier on both ends of a double weapon, as it helps to make spending feats on EWP/TWF more of an actual benefit.

[Fizban]

Actually, from a game balance perspective I think it's better to give the two-handed multiplier on both ends of a double weapon, as it helps to make spending feats on EWP/TWF more of an actual benefit.
Indeed, I had it in my notes for that very reason. Makes the both the exotic doubles and the lowly quarterstaff actually worth something. Only problem is it means every THF build just switched to a double weapon for a free attack and light TWF is even more garbage by comparison.

[DarkSoul]

Well, the Rules Compendium has this to say about double weapons:


A creature can fight using both ends of a double weapon as if using two weapons, incurring all the normal penalties associated with two-weapon fighting while wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. Someone wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round. A wielder can choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it.

So using both ends incurs penalties as though it's a one-handed and light weapons. In my opinion the reduced strength modifiers to damage are penalties. If you want to claim the two-handed damage bonus with one end of a double weapon, you don't get to TWF with it unless you're a Revenant Blade 5.

[Fizban]

No significant difference from the original text. In fact, if referring to the appropriate sections of the Rules Compendium reinforces the two-handed damage argument: turning back a couple pages for the two-weapon fighting penalties shows you only a table of attack roll modifiers with no mention of other penalties, while turning forward to the definitions of light/one-handed/two-handed weapons remains ambiguous in that double weapons are not mentioned. Which is most appropriate? You are required to use two hands in order to wield both ends of a double weapon, so it should count as a two-handed weapon and get 1 1/2 str to damage, right?

And that sidebar gives me something to mention in the funny stuff thread.

[DarkSoul]

You are required to use two hands in order to wield both ends of a double weapon, so it should count as a two-handed weapon and get 1 1/2 str to damage, right?No, because it specifically states that if you attack with both ends of a double weapon, you treat it as a one-handed and a light weapon, with all the attendant penalties (including reduced strength modifier). Because the rules for double weapons say it's a one-handed and light for the purposes of TWF, the table listing the TWF penalties doesn't have to list double weapons. The definitions of light/one-handed/two-handed don't have to account for double weapons for the same reason.

If you want to get two-hander bonuses with a double weapon be a Revenant Blade, homebrew something, or houserule the existing rules.

[Darrin]

So using both ends incurs penalties as though it's a one-handed and light weapons. In my opinion the reduced strength modifiers to damage are penalties. If you want to claim the two-handed damage bonus with one end of a double weapon, you don't get to TWF with it unless you're a Revenant Blade 5.

The TWF rules only mention a penalty when referring to calculating the attack roll. Damage is not discussed in the TWF section of the rules.

Under the Damage section, the Strength bonus is always referred to as a bonus. And half of a bonus is still a bonus, not a penalty.

At least, that's the literal RAW. I am well aware that hardly anyone plays that way.

[DarkSoul]

The TWF rules only mention a penalty when referring to calculating the attack roll. Damage is not discussed in the TWF section of the rules.

Under the Damage section, the Strength bonus is always referred to as a bonus. And half of a bonus is still a bonus, not a penalty.

At least, that's the literal RAW. I am well aware that hardly anyone plays that way.Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Back on topic though, if world-specific items aren't a problem for the OP, the Valenar Double Scimitar is the aforementioned Revenant Blade's weapon of choice. I've seen rules for a double scythe somewhere too, but I don't remember if it was in a sourcebook or dragon/dungeon (the Vile issue of dragon mentions it for sure). I can't say I've ever seen someone use a dire flail or gyrspike, and there's also the lynx paw from Races of the Wild.

[Deadline]

I suppose you could dual wield Kusarr-gamas (DMG). They are one-handed reach weapons (and I think they are also light). It's not very unique though.

[Zaq]

How about the eagle's claw, from Sandstorm? They're already light weapons, but there's a feat you can take with them (Eagle's Fury) that basically lets you get an extra attack (at a –2 penalty to all your attacks for the round, much like Rapid Shot or like the typical net effect of TWF). TWF is all about getting in as many swings as possible, so why not one more?

(Technically, with Throw Anything or something similar, you could also stack Rapid Shot with TWF and Eagle's Fury for lots and lots of extra attacks, though the penalties and the feat cost would become prohibitive at some point.)

Sandstorm also has the collapsing crescent fan. Mechanically, it's not terribly interesting (+4 to hit flat-footed opponents, while nice, isn't really worth the feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency unless you're already stacking the deck to inflict flat-footed more than is typical), but you seem to be focusing more on the image of your character than on their efficiency, so it might be up your alley.

[denthor]

Hello playground,
Im changing my character a bit and I was wondering if you guys know some cool weapons to use while Two-weapon fighting. No swords, no hammers, no maces... Really something uniqe that no one would have used while twf. Even something that RAW can't be done is also an option.

Many thanks in ahead

Be a wizard with wands

[Calthropstu]

I highly recommend the shovel.

[gorfnab]

Poison Ring (Dragon Compendium)

[SangoProduction]

Clearly, you would dual-wield the Legendary weapon called Scorpion on a Stick.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/uN5XFhdAkCU8f1ajUA1TGlGit6NHmEmG4wHOIZau6Ie1LmUI_S Mmu9G-IEES-SPbPGFphA=s102

Or, you could be a giant who dual-wields goblins who reload your crossbows (or just cycle them out, depending on how big you get). Or be a little more lazy, and just have the goblins dual-wield crossbows, while you dual-wield them. Maybe also have an extra goblin and ballista strapped to your back for heavy fire support.

[Gallowglass]

Hang on... I have a pic for this from a prior thread...

https://s12.postimg.org/w11u52lxp/armchuks.png

[Extra Anchovies]

Now that's what I call armed and dangerous :smallcool:

[Calthropstu]

hey, at least mine made sense... you can be a cemetery keeper who has become infuriated that the dead in his cemetery just won't stay down, so you picked up your trusty shovels and began bashing undead into submission.

Then invested into a masterwork shovel and had it enchanted.

And then, once you're done, well hey... you have a shovel to bury them with.

[CaPtMalHammer]

All kind of fun options:)

1) trident and net, no one does this lol :) tripping and more fun, maybe a little too Spartacus though lol

2) Dual wield dagger whips from arms and equipment guide:) lethal damage, good reach, act like range weapons but are melee based, can even get magic whips that turn into entangle vines etc for extra flare.

3) Hulking hurler with two large bags of rocks:)
ok that's a stretch lol

4) Not really a melee weapon and really expensive but dual throw folding boats:) lots of fall damage and they never see it coming. Who throws a boat honestly!

[CaPtMalHammer]

Thought of 1 more as well..

5) Dwarven Cook that dual wields cast cold iron frying pans! :) masterwork of course!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could dual-wield two of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization). Only works in higher levels, though, once you get self-reloading sandblasters. You won't even need the TWF feats, because who cares about -6/-10/-16/-20 penalties to attack when you never make attack rolls?

Focus more on adding to your damage (like, say, aptitude + the Shadow Blade feat) and status ailments than taking TWF feats.

[ghanjrho]

You could dual-wield two of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization). Only works in higher levels, though, once you get self-reloading sandblasters. You won't even need the TWF feats, because who cares about -6/-10/-16/-20 penalties to attack when you never make attack rolls?

Focus more on adding to your damage (like, say, aptitude + the Shadow Blade feat) and status ailments than taking TWF feats.

From my understanding, you still need iTWF and gTWF to get your second and third off-hand attacks. Only base TWF phrases itself as reducing penalties.

Personally, I recommend the Dragonsplits. Monster Manual 4, 1-handed weapon that counts as light for Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting, 1d6 and either 19-20/x2 S or 20/x4 P.

[Vizzerdrix]

You could dual-wield two of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization). Only works in higher levels, though, once you get self-reloading sandblasters. You won't even need the TWF feats, because who cares about -6/-10/-16/-20 penalties to attack when you never make attack rolls?

Focus more on adding to your damage (like, say, aptitude + the Shadow Blade feat) and status ailments than taking TWF feats.

Oh my. I wonder if it can be ANY kind of sand. A blacksand load would leave an area quite the mess, or it could be used as a dilivery method for shapesand. After you attack, the next player turns in into shackles, or a barbed net over whom the sand is on.


Hmm... could this be a way to get +1 shapesand? It would be ammo, after all. I think not though because that would be like makk g +1 acid flasks for a gnome calculus. Shame though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh my. I wonder if it can be ANY kind of sand.There is no mention of limits for the types of sand that can be used, so unless the DM says otherwise, yes. That's discussed in the thread I linked.


A blacksand load would leave an area quite the mess, or it could be used as a dilivery method for shapesand. After you attack, the next player turns in into shackles, or a barbed net over whom the sand is on.Possibly, though you'd need the Wis and the actions to do it. Or you could just lob a loosely-closed bag of sand at them.


Hmm... could this be a way to get +1 shapesand? It would be ammo, after all. I think not though because that would be like makk g +1 acid flasks for a gnome calculus. Shame though.Since any sand can be used, yes, you could enhance the shapesand, because it IS ammunition, but it needs to be masterwork -- so shape it into a masterwork ballista bolt or something, then turn it into +1/whatever shapesand from there.

[Vizzerdrix]

Since any sand can be used, yes, you could enhance the shapesand, because it IS ammunition, but it needs to be masterwork -- so shape it into a masterwork ballista bolt or something, then turn it into +1 whatever shapesand from there.

Mmm. This is giving me wicked thoughts. I do love shapesand and always wished the sand shaper prc was devoted less to casting and more to sand manipulation. Ancestrial Relic with shapesand "Behold, the ashes of my ancestors. They are quite displeased with you."

Maybe refluff shadowsmith instead? But the shadow items are very limited. Hmm...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Mmm. This is giving me wicked thoughts. I do love shapesand and always wished the sand shaper prc was devoted less to casting and more to sand manipulation. Ancestrial Relic with shapesand "Behold, the ashes of my ancestors. They are quite displeased with you."Make sure to add some really nice effects to your sand-ammo, such as, maybe, cyclonic, from Pathfinder? It's now completely unhindered by everything from water to solid fog to hurricane-level gales. Splitting, maybe? Definitely add the effects of a raptor arrow. Maybe add the eagle's cry enhancement to your sandblaster, as well? Double the range AND double the range increments...to two, I guess.

[edit] Add morphing to a Hank's energy bow, and turn it into a sandblaster for infinite sand-ammo and power shot?