Eldritch knight / Fiend bladelock?

[Sianthus]

Hey guys, I have a new character concept knocking about in my head and I was wondering whether I could have some help with the mechanics and optimisation of it :D I'm not looking for full munchkiness, which I can appreciate but the class combo I have in mind is hardly optimal in the first place aha.

So here's Lennarn Golightly. He was a cleric for Gavista, the (home-brewed) God of war and injustice, who led the first dragons to triumph over the rampaging demons. Despite the clergy's strict tenets, Lennarn was never really a stickler for rules. Long story short, he fell in love with a succubus, got declared anathema to his order, was forced to watch his love be banished back to the infernal realms, and left alone to freeze amidst her ashes. Luckily for him, the succubus left a amulet behind by which they could communicate sporadically. And thus begins a harsh and tenuous long distance relationship, full of laughs, farce and tragedy, as Len begins on his journey to find and restore his love Imara to this realm.

Assuming point buy. I was thinking because of his acolyte background, he'd be a vuman with Magic initiate as his feat (Bless, Guidance and.. Spare the dying? Using spells that don't need wisdom.) the catch is that he gets his "divine" guidance from a somewhat more.. Infernal source :P.

As for class, I thought what would be a cleric be if they lost their divine connection. I thought paladin at first, but the divine flavor would be too strong. So I chose Eldritch knight instead, as he would scour the land looking for methods and magic to bring Imara back. Obviously, the possibility of Fiend pact is always there as well.

Obviously this is very MAD, but I really want to mc/dip warlock for the flavour (not for EB + agonising blast aha, I'll make it a point NOT to take it) so I'm curious what would be a good levelling order for this particular MC. Any help would be much appreciated!

[Gastronomie]

It's a shame you are not taking Agonizing Blast, because it's hands down one of the most important reasons to make a Eldritch Knight/Warlock multiclass. BTW, optimization-wise there is very little reason for an Eldritch Knight to take Pact of the Blade - the only benefit it has is that the attacks are magical, but by level 7 you'd probably get at least 1 magic item. Thirsting Blade is a joke, given how it overlaps with Extra Attack. Lifedrinker requires heavy investment in Warlock (7/12, you need to be level 19 to gain its benefits). Tome or Chain are better options… but of course, it's up to you.

First go Fighter 7 or 8 (7 for War Magic, 8 for a Wizard spell from any school and an ASI), and proceed to go Warlock 3 (or higher). Dump INT and invest mainly in CHA.

Shield, Darkness (plus Devil's Sight), Invisibility, Mirror Image, and Misty Step are examples of spells that don't rely on INT.

War Magic allows you to make a weapon attack on top of Eldritch Blast. You can also substitute EB for Booming or Green-Flame Blade (take BB as an EK spell and GFB as a Warlock spell - BB doesn't require a high casting stat, while GFB does). This wonderful combination is the main selling point of EBlocks.

[rollingForInit]

So, if you want to optimise, you should dump (or at least leave low) either Intelligence or Charisma. Use one for offensive and utility spells, the other for offensive. Take an offensive cantrip from whichever class you have a strong casting stat in. You can always take EB without taking AB - that's fine, if not optimal. I totally understand not wanting AB when you're playing a melee character.

Devil's Sight + Darkness. Take three levels so you can get the spell. This is a nice combo that doesn't rely on casting stats. Even better if your race doesn't already have darkvision. Hex is a decent spell, as is Armor of Agathys, and neither depend on Charisma. Level 2 has other goodies such as Misty Step and Invisibility, aside from Darkness.

Don't take Pact of the Blade as a pact boon, it'll be virtually useless for you since you're an EK. Pact of the Tome will give you rituals and more cantrips, that's awesome. Pact of the Chain has some utility, but is otherwise really good for flavour and RP.


I thought paladin at first, but the divine flavor would be too strong.

This isn't really correct anymore, though. Just wanted to mention it. Paladins don't get their spells or magic from a god; they get it from their Oath, which can be to just about anything. It can be to a deity for sure, but it can also be an oath to a higher ideal, to some abstract concept, to a knightly order, to the monarch of your country, to nature or just about anything. An Oath of Vengeance, for instance, might be a good Oath for someone that's in debt to a Fiend. The vengeance could be to help the fiend, or it could be to destroy the fiend for trying to extort you into doing something bad. Two levels of Paldin would get you some minor healing (Lay on Hands), a second Fighting Style, and Smite. That's not too shabby.

[CaptainSarathai]

So... Gish, yeah? Start Paladin. That gives you Heavy Armor right out of the gates. Multi-classing will always cost you an ASI, but you could go to L2 without losing anything but your capstone and some slots from Warlock - you gain a Fighting Style and Smite in return. I'd really try for at least Lvl4 so that you don't slow your ASI progression.
Then take 2 levels of Warlock to get Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast.

From here it gets tricky. Paladins really shoot themselves in the foot on spell slots if they MC. Warlocks don't lose slots at all, they just don't have many, but get them back on Short rests. Starting at 6th level, you could start in on 14 levels of Sorcerer or Bard to go Full Caster for a lot of daily slots. Sorcerer gives you access to the usual Metamagic exploitation, and Bard could make for a nice skill-monkey and face, should the party need it.
What you plan to do with your later levels really informs what Pacts or Oaths you take:


If you want to slam high damage, I'd take Paladin up to 12 rather than Warlock, and try to get some Sorc levels in there to fuel Smites. You could leave Warlock at 2 and not bother with a Pact, since Blade would be fairly useless (you get Extra Attack from Pally, and won't get to Life Drinker). Any Oath would work, since you're going high enough to get the best feature from Ancients. Devotion or Vengeance would stack well with GWM, leaning more towards Devotion so that you can maintain Hex instead of Bless.


For a respectable amount of damage and a lot more spell slots and out-of-combat versatility, you could take a BladeLock to level12 and get Life Drinker, then up to 14 for Hurl Through Hell. That's also more slots on Short Rest for Smites or fuelling Metamagic if you still decide to dip into Sorcerer (although it's less necessary with this mix). You could still go to Pally 6-8 and use the Invocation you'd normally burn on Thirsting Blade for something more fun, OR you could leave Paladin lower and MC into Sorc or Bard for even MORE utility, and still have 2A thanks to TB.


For absolutely a TON of spells and a little less damage, you could snag 14 levels of Sorcerer and just go to town. I'd get up to level 5 with BladeLock to get the extra attack (more slots on rest than a pally gets) and then use Metamagic to throw Quicken and cast spells as a bonus action. Since you're not taking Lock all the way up high enough to get Hurl Through Hell, it would be easier to justify taking a different patron. Great Old One gives you telepathy and Dissonant Whispers, which combines nicely with Metamagic (Attack, Q.DW, OA attack). Archfey makes you super mobile, and if you go to Pal3 and take Oath of Vengeance, makes you very similar to the old "Pursuing Avenger" from 4e.

taking a Dragonblood Sorc up to at LEAST lvl3 is fun just for Metamagic. Using Quicken Spell on BB/GFB basically let's you make a weapon attack as a Bonus action. This could be a lot of fun combined with the 11/12th level Paladin/Warlock abilities Improved Divine Smite or Life Drinker, and Hex from Warlock, to get into 20th level Fighter levels of damage. Your total attacks for the round with a Greatsword, Hex, at Lv18 with Str20 and Cha20 would be:
Improved Smite: 9d6 + 6d8 + 15 = ~73.5dmg
Life Drinker: 9d6 + 3d8 + 30 = ~75dmg

For the record, a PAM Fighter at 20th is looking at ~49.5dmg. Both builds have access to PAM&GWM, and GWF style, if you want to be silly (have to go Pally though, since you sac 2 ASIs). Going up to Pally 11 for Improved Divine Smite would even net you the shot at Oath of Devotion for Sacred Weapon and the ability to toss Bless on yourself, to make that -5 from GWM disappear altogether.

Assuming you go 12/4/4 you still get 5 ASIs. That's enough for 20 in Str and Cha, plus a Feat, if you're going for EB&AB and/or Life Drinker on Warlock. Otherwise you go 14/4/2, giving 4 ASIs, and either Wings from Sorc, or Hurl Through Hell from Lock.
Alternately, you could also take your first level in Fighter, and get prof in Con saves. Vuman could also do this with Resilience.

The biggest problem with the character like this, might be deciding how to do your level progression. So far though, it's the best Gish type build I've been able to come up with, without getting into UA stuff.

[Sianthus]

On phone so I can't quote well but here goes!

Yep mistyped, if I go EK there's little reason to go bladelock unless I'm taking the latter to high levels. Brain just blurts out bladelock when I think of a melee warlock aha. I would probably go chain because pets are just nice :D

I get the talk about dumping either Int or Cha, using one for utility and the other for offense. I'm leaning towards Cha for utility since if it IS the EK/Chainlock build, the chainlock would just be a short dip.

As for the gish builds, I really like those but I'm leaning more towards whacky whacky because I'm playing a Palasorc like what you mentioned :D just wanna give EK a good and proper whirl since there's so little love for it ehe.

[CaptainSarathai]

As for the gish builds, I really like those but I'm leaning more towards whacky whacky because I'm playing a Palasorc like what you mentioned :D just wanna give EK a good and proper whirl since there's so little love for it ehe.

Because EKnights are just terrible? I really wanted to like the class, because I used to play a Hexblade in 3.5, and my friend always built awesome Swordmages and hybridSMs in 4th.
The problem is putting Warmagic onto the Fighter chassis. Give up 4A to cast a spell, and then get 1A as a bonus? And your blade cant be an Arcane Focus?! It's just insult to injury. By the time you get through all that, realizing thst you're 7-levels-deep into a "1/3 Caster" doesn't even matter anymore, you may as well drink the Kool-aid and check out altogether.

I think that even the devs have realized what they've done, and have given us the Singers and Favored Souls to try and correct it. "Booming Blade" is even the name of the 4e Swordmage's primary attack.

Sure its not "at will", but you could go Fighter, and then take enough Sorc levels for Metamagic and basically flip the script: a full attack action, and a bonus action spell. And could use the Booming Blade exploit like I pointed out above.

The only way I could see an EK being any good and keeping it's flavor, is if you basically just built a normal fighter, and used your EK stuff to self-boost with concentration buffs.
Otherwise, I think EK is just so that you can dip into Fighter without giving up too many spell slots.

[Specter]

Never mind those who say EK is bad. They've probably never seen one in action.

You said you plan to focus on INT rather than CHA. But will you focus on DEX or STR? With DEX you should go for a shield, possibly the most optimal route, but with STR you could go the GWM way. With Find Familiar giving you advantage on one attack you can safely trade -5/+10, and with Dark One's Blessing you'll tank even harder.

As for progression, you should probably start with a level of each. Then go Fighter till 5, then another 2 lock levels, then Fighter to level 10, then probably lock to level 10. Eldritch Strike opens up to many debuffs, and War Magic should be the staple for attacking from level 10 onwards.

[wilhelmdubdub]

I played a sword and board EK and had a good time with it. I took defense, and Vhuman for heavy armor master for the damage resistance. With AC 19, damage reduction, proficiency in Con saves, Shield spell and warcaster you become the best concentration spell caster in the game. Your hex will last a lot longer now, as the concentration is 10 or half damage, whatever is higher. Booming blade gives you the best attacks of opportunity. Booming blade starts to add damage to your attack on hit, which becomes very good. Then add shield spell to the mix and you become very tanky. I had an AL DM state "I hate you," with this build. I didn't know about absorb elements, but you must get this to halve the damage of enemies' spells and get extra damage on your next swing as a reaction as a first level spell. The fiend pact gives you a lot of fire damage spells, which need to hit and have a high DC. In that case I would put charisma over int. Remember fighters get a lot of ASI's so the more of them the better you fight MAD. I would go: Str, Con, Cha, Int, Dex/Wis.

I would start your level ups with fighter 1 to get heavy armor and fighting style. Then ask yourself, how far do you want to go in warlock, what do you want out of it. Then get out ASAP to know you are getting good HP and ASI's. Perhaps something like Fighter, Warlock, x3Fighter, warlock, x2 fighter, warlock....

[Sianthus]

I've heard that EKnight was bad, but wouldn't hurt to give it a try :)

I was planning to focus more on Dex than Str :). GWM sounds good but do i have enough ASIs to get those feats? If I go Chainlock, I would get my familiar from there :D. Pseudodragon all the way, even if it's not the best (can't go invisible sadly). From what I see, Eknight doesn't synergise at all with TWF right? Since you need a bonus action from War Magic and all. That's a pity. Sigh TWF, when will I get to use you properly.

And yeah I heard about the super tanky Eknight build you mentioned :D. That order of attributes sound good to me. The tanky spells like shield don't need a high Int after all hm. Funnily enough, if i do go with Cleric Magic Initiate, I would be using Cha, Int, AND Wis as my casting stats. I find that highly amusing XDD. But yeah so the trade off is some of the additional attacks from Fighter with using BB and attack as bonus action hm..

I think what i really want out of the (fiend( warlock dip is here in order;
number 1 - flavour/rp/pet,
number 2 - dark one's blessing!
number 3 - some short rest spell slots,
number 4 - those cool invocations.

[Specter]

I've heard that EKnight was bad, but wouldn't hurt to give it a try :)

I was planning to focus more on Dex than Str :). GWM sounds good but do i have enough ASIs to get those feats? If I go Chainlock, I would get my familiar from there :D. Pseudodragon all the way, even if it's not the best (can't go invisible sadly). From what I see, Eknight doesn't synergise at all with TWF right? Since you need a bonus action from War Magic and all. That's a pity. Sigh TWF, when will I get to use you properly.

And yeah I heard about the super tanky Eknight build you mentioned :D. That order of attributes sound good to me. The tanky spells like shield don't need a high Int after all hm. Funnily enough, if i do go with Cleric Magic Initiate, I would be using Cha, Int, AND Wis as my casting stats. I find that highly amusing XDD. But yeah so the trade off is some of the additional attacks from Fighter with using BB and attack as bonus action hm..

I think what i really want out of the (fiend( warlock dip is here in order;
number 1 - flavour/rp/pet,
number 2 - dark one's blessing!
number 3 - some short rest spell slots,
number 4 - those cool invocations.

Yep. Unless you're set on Magic Initiate, I'd say grab War Caster. Using a shield and casting tank you up egregiously. Plus concentration and op. attack with good cantrips.

If you're going for DEX, grab the Armor of Shadows invocation from Warlock, for at-will Mage Armor. With 20DEX, that's 18AC, not counting shield, Defense, Shield...

TWF doesn't match EK because by Fighter level 7 you'll be using War Magic which requires your bonus action, and TWF turns bad. I'm guessing the best TWF users are Champions.

[CaptainSarathai]

WarCaster and the SCAG cantrips could be really fun. It's basically Sentinel or an ungodly amount of extra damage.
You could make a really stick defender.

As far as EKs being really good - I'm still not sold. You can get Con save proficiency on any other class with Resilience. You can get Heavy Armor from Fighter/Paladin at first level, or Cleric thereafter. They don't really get anything that you can snag through Multiclass or just get via straight Paladin.

You can Multiclass, take Fighter to 11 and then go 9 levels of Full Caster and still get more spell slots than an EK, losing just 1 attack from your Fighter class (only get that at 20 anyway)

The big thing you're getting with EK (and the thing I'm most jealous of) is the Warmagic. But it seems really odd to me that they chose to layer that feature over the Fighter, with the most attacks and therefore the most to lose by using it. It also seems strange that they withhold the ability until 7th level, so as to make it incredibly prohibitive to take that ability on another chassis.

[Saggo]

As far as EKs being really good - I'm still not sold. You can get Con save proficiency on any other class with Resilience. You can get Heavy Armor from Fighter/Paladin at first level, or Cleric thereafter. They don't really get anything that you can snag through Multiclass or just get via straight Paladin.
Resilient costs you a feat, a reason multiple builds recommend a level of Fighter in the first place. Eldritch Knight not only has a Fighter's worth of ASIs and saves you from Resilient (Con), it opens up taking Resilient for all the other saves.


You can Multiclass, take Fighter to 11 and then go 9 levels of Full Caster and still get more spell slots than an EK, losing just 1 attack from your Fighter class (only get that at 20 anyway)

If you multiclass, you're either delaying spells, delaying Extra Attack, or delaying ASIs, problems you don't see if white box a multiclass build for level 20. Eldritch Knight is the only way to get level 4 slots, 3 attacks, and several feats in any reasonable time frame.

By level 12, you could have 3 attacks, 20 Str, 20 Con, Polearm Master (or Shield Master), Great Weapon Fighting (or Sentinel), Shield, Mirror Image, and Blur. Not a single slot is required for your phenomenal DPR, all reserved for utility and basically making you unkillable. At 13 you get level 3 slots. At 14 you can Self-Haste and get another ASI.

You can't do that with a Paladin. In order to have that multiclassed, you would need at least 4 full-caster levels without Eldritch Knight, losing extra attack and potentially another ASI for a long time (if you're in Eldritch Knight and dipping a couple caster levels, you're an Eldritch Knight).

That's a pretty nice niche. I think it qualifies as good. Eldritch Knight also makes a pretty good archer, there are a lot of good mobility and utility spells in the Wizard list that Rangers just can't get.

If you do manage to play past 14-15ish, then feel free to multiclass out (there are some very nice builds), Eldritch Knight has already established itself as a worthwhile investment. But even then, continuing as EK grants you more spell slots, more Action Surges, more Indomitable, and a free teleport to go along with the more Action Surges, and eventually that coveted 4th attack (a package multiclassing most certainly cannot offer you).

[Specter]

As far as EKs being really good - I'm still not sold. You can get Con save proficiency on any other class with Resilience. You can get Heavy Armor from Fighter/Paladin at first level, or Cleric thereafter. They don't really get anything that you can snag through Multiclass or just get via straight Paladin.

You can Multiclass, take Fighter to 11 and then go 9 levels of Full Caster and still get more spell slots than an EK, losing just 1 attack from your Fighter class (only get that at 20 anyway)

The big thing you're getting with EK (and the thing I'm most jealous of) is the Warmagic. But it seems really odd to me that they chose to layer that feature over the Fighter, with the most attacks and therefore the most to lose by using it. It also seems strange that they withhold the ability until 7th level, so as to make it incredibly prohibitive to take that ability on another chassis.

This line of thought only works because you're considering all of these things separately. If you go Champion 12/Wizard 8, you can get 4th-level spells and three attacks, sure. But that's at level 20. For the early levels, you'll be at a struggle with what class level to take and delayed at spell progression. And that's not even considering the low HP., and the 8 levels of Fighter features you miss.

If you're going pure EK, you're grabbing spells along the way, instead of having to pit stop for them. Unlike all other Fighter subclasses, they have no cold levels.

Paladin's don't get as much AC, cantrips, Action Surge, extra attacks and 2 extra ASI's (and they need to boost 2-3 stats). I won't mention Improved War Magic because it comes too late.

While War Magic seems redundant with extra attacks, there will be turns where your bonus action is busy (Second Wind, Misty Step and whatnot), and that's when three attacks make a difference. Or when Action Surging.

Paladin's problem with spellcasting is that it always gets in their way; even if you cast a wonderful spell like Bless, it still cost you a whole turn. EKs don't have that problem.

Another thing to be jealous of is Eldritch Strike, which makes a simple spell like Hold Person or Suggestion terrifying. At level 14, you can attack 3 dudes and then Slow them all down, for instance. Top dollar.

In the two times I played an EK, I was the most reliable party member to survive and be prepared to whatever came my way. Barbarians fell before I did. The Wizard turned invisible when threats came his way, but I stood still and joyful. So bottom line, a strong Fighter chassis along with spells and features that enhance those. I can't sell you on anything, but take my word for it.

EDIT: And what Saggo said.

[Laughingdagger]

WarCaster and the SCAG cantrips could be really fun. It's basically Sentinel or an ungodly amount of extra damage.
You could make a really stick defender.

As far as EKs being really good - I'm still not sold. You can get Con save proficiency on any other class with Resilience. You can get Heavy Armor from Fighter/Paladin at first level, or Cleric thereafter. They don't really get anything that you can snag through Multiclass or just get via straight Paladin.

You can Multiclass, take Fighter to 11 and then go 9 levels of Full Caster and still get more spell slots than an EK, losing just 1 attack from your Fighter class (only get that at 20 anyway)

The big thing you're getting with EK (and the thing I'm most jealous of) is the Warmagic. But it seems really odd to me that they chose to layer that feature over the Fighter, with the most attacks and therefore the most to lose by using it. It also seems strange that they withhold the ability until 7th level, so as to make it incredibly prohibitive to take that ability on another chassis.


I feel you on the war magic issue, especially at such a high and odd number making most multiclass decisions hurt in late game.

I really felt like bladesinger should have gotten war magic, and EK should have gotten something else.