MITD is a vorlon. lothos proved it. - or mayhap a shadow

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Back in June of 2009 lothos presented all the proof for the MITD.

With all the younger folk, who have never seen B5 floundering in the dark about the MitD, I wanted to bump the thread - but it seems that is frowned on. Shame.


lothos lothos is offline
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Default Re: MitD - What We Know
Ha,
I've finally figured it out, I know without any doubt whatsoever what MitD is:

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It's a Vorlon from Babylon 5 !!!

The evidence is irrefutable:

* Rich has expressed his admiration for Babylon 5 many times

* When Vorlons are seen by the "young races", it makes them tired (check out the wikipedia article for a citation on this) and after the STOMP and whatever effect it was to help V and O-Chul escape, MitD was tired...

* The ability that it used to help V and O-Chul escape was of course a jump gate that it summoned.....

* It's well known that Vorlons repeatedly asked for Stew in large quantities from Sheridan during the entire run of Babylon 5. As the wikepedia article says, they speak in short enigmatic phrases... like "STEW".

* No-one can prove it's not a Vorlon, so I must be right !!! There is no possibility that any other theory can account for all the things we know about MitD as well as this one..... apart from several other theories that several other people have already posted.....

:-)


See Also:


allenw

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Default Re: MitD - What We Know
Quote Originally Posted by JLrep View Post
I think one of the biggest clues so far has been in SoD...
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...when the MitD states that "Sometimes, it's hard being looked at by so many [people]." This, along with the recent spell-effect, makes me think that it's almost definitely not a member of a big, strong, usually-stupid race, but rather a powerful magical, psionic, etc., creature, specifically one whose physical presence and visual appearance are not so closely linked as in normal beings.

Though, I don't know how many D&D monsters (or mythological monsters) fit this description anywhere near satisfactorily. I know there's a D&D monster that takes the form of whatever is most frightening to its viewer, but that really doesn't make sense for many other reasons.
"Being seen by so many at once was a great strain. I returned to my ship to rest. You have a question?" -Kosh Narenek, "Matters of Honor", Babylon 5 Season 3 Ep. 1




Except: Mayhap a shadow.



To the only two people that caught it:

lothos
allenw

So close; I thought lothos was right allenw's quote of reinforced it. UNTIL Droopys post: "Probably not very pretty. (Yes one girl at the carnival says "...yet so beautiful" in SoD but apparently "Almost everyone [...] recoils in abject horror at the sight of you" on the next page)"

IT IS A SHADOW. Remember that Vorlons are viewed as angels/lovely & have trained us to view Shadows as evil/ugly. But no everyone views them that way.
Most Shadows can not speak English.
rely seen except as shadowy, mirage-like silhouettes

I am sold that is must be a shadow, or possibly a Vorlon.

Nothing else fits.

If you do not know what these are you NEED to watch Babylon 5. You'll be a better person after you do.

original Thread.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?114313-MitD-What-We-Know/page11

[KorvinStarmast]

In the interest of full disclosure, do you have a financial interest in reruns or steaming episodes of Babylon 5? This post appears to be aimed at getting people to watch Babylon 5.

As to the theory ... we'll see.

[littlebum2002]

This is awesome. You should totally start a thread containing nothing but various ideas about the MitD's identity!

[martianmister]

How about Snorlax from Pokemon games? It has power and endurance, like MitD; and can use Metronome to teleport them!

[Markozeta]

This is awesome. You should totally start a thread containing nothing but various ideas about the MitD's identity!

It's so much easier to tell sarcasm with blue text.

[King of Nowhere]

it could be addded in the mitd thread among "light-hearted ideas"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is awesome. You should totally start a thread containing nothing but various ideas about the MitD's identity!

Absolutely! I mean, seems incredible that no-one thought to start a second version of that thread when that one reached page 50, and conveniently link to it.

GW

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

it could be addded in the mitd thread among "light-hearted ideas"

Not light hearted, altough Vorlons are creatures of the light.


Absolutely! I mean, seems incredible that no-one thought to start a second version of that thread when that one reached page 50, and conveniently link to it.

GW


That is literally, exactly what I did.


In the interest of full disclosure, do you have a financial interest in reruns or steaming episodes of Babylon 5? This post appears to be aimed at getting people to watch Babylon 5.

As to the theory ... we'll see.

No. Imperial Grand Admirals are required to do all investments through blind trusts.

Everyone should watch it, it is the only Serial Sci-fi released in the last century, and remains one of the best. It is the reason we are not stuck with crap episodic shows.

I was re-reading a few of the MitD threads. I wanted to bump the old one, but happened to see the rule about doing that. But it has been 7 years. Human memory is a frail thing. I had been away from the forum, and happened to go through some old PMs, and I remembered something I had forgotten. MitD is a Vorlon.



Haley, as Death Incarnate, was a reference to Susan Ivanova, in cased you missed it.

[Porthos]

That is literally, exactly what I did.


They were being sarcastic. :smallsmile: The current 'Discuss what the MitD is thread' is on Thread #10 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708-MitD-X-If-I-told-you-you-wouldn-t-believe-me).

[Cizak]

That is literally, exactly what I did.

But it's weird that no one has done it nine times already.

[Mad Humanist]

They were being sarcastic. :smallsmile: The current 'Discuss what the MitD is thread' is on Thread #10 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708-MitD-X-If-I-told-you-you-wouldn-t-believe-me).

What we really need is a thread where the one rule, clearly labelled at the top, is that everything posted has to be sarcastic. I really would like to know how that would develop.

[Peelee]

No. Imperial Grand Admirals are required to do all investments through blind trusts.

Technically, you're a couple letters short of being an Imperial Grand Admiral (though I suspect a character limit is to blame for that).

[Morquard]

But wouldn't that mean the original post is sarcastic too, and therefor we shouldn't listen to it?

[littlebum2002]

What we really need is a thread where the one rule, clearly labelled at the top, is that everything posted has to be sarcastic. I really would like to know how that would develop.

I'm sure it would turn out fine, with only a small chance of getting locked.

[Markozeta]

What we really need is a thread where the one rule, clearly labelled at the top, is that everything posted has to be sarcastic. I really would like to know how that would develop.

What if the rule was in blue text????

The world may never know.

[Darth Paul]

I'm sure it would turn out fine, with only a small chance of getting locked.

I agree with you completely. No possibility whatsoever.

[Goblin_Priest]

I've never watched B5, but I must admit I find the arguments quite convincing.

I mean, there's nothing from D&D sourcebooks that allows to teleport others without oneself. Plane Shift seems like the closest effect, but that forces the target to another plane. Wish/Miracle might be able to do it, but how many creatures have access to that? Very few, and those who do don't really seem to match the other criteria. A teleport spell combined with a dimensional anchor might be able to explain that event, but it seems extremely rules-lawerery and not consistent with what was seen.

Kind of seems easier to assume the MITD is not from 3.5 source books.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, there's nothing from D&D sourcebooks that allows to teleport others without oneself.

Yeah, It's amazing that wizards don't have a spell to stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) from teleporting

[Keltest]

Yeah, It's amazing that wizards don't have a spell to stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) from teleporting

Ive never found that argument convincing. Even allowing for a moment that DA could even work that way instead of just fizzling the whole spell, I'm pretty sure based on the angle he is watching the action from and the angle that V cast the DA that he wasn't actually in the line of fire to begin with.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Even allowing for a moment that DA could even work that way instead of just fizzling the whole spell,
The poison arrow incident during the battle of Azure city and the arrow catching of Tarquin (when Haley was probably aiming at Miron) on the Triceratops are strong evidence that ranged aimed attacks that miss their intended targets still go onwards and could impact other participants in the battle if they happen to be in the way of the attack. I'll grant you that they are not absolute proof, but I think the assumption is warranted.


I'm pretty sure based on the angle he is watching the action from and the angle that V cast the DA that he wasn't actually in the line of fire to begin with.

I disagree - but there really is very little either of us can say to support either side. The downwards angle is really sales it for me, but it's really just my opinion.

GW

[Peelee]

Ive never found that argument convincing. Even allowing for a moment that DA could even work that way instead of just fizzling the whole spell, I'm pretty sure based on the angle he is watching the action from and the angle that V cast the DA that he wasn't actually in the line of fire to begin with.

Well, we know it's a circular room, and the missed spell does go downward, so it's at least a plausible idea. Best argument against is that it would likely just fizzle the spell. I think it's not outlandish to think that it may work, though.

[littlebum2002]

Ive never found that argument convincing. Even allowing for a moment that DA could even work that way instead of just fizzling the whole spell, I'm pretty sure based on the angle he is watching the action from and the angle that V cast the DA that he wasn't actually in the line of fire to begin with.

What angle? It's a 2 dimensional comic. They're flying, so the only two directions the MitD can possibly be in relation to V and X are "under them and to our left" or "under them and to our right".

Considering that to our right is the wall V blasted through, the only possible location for where the MitD and O-Chul are located are to our left. And considering V's Dimensional anchor went "under them and to our left", it stands to reason that even if it didn't hit them, it still went in their direction.

Or, to sum it up in a manner more consistent with this thread,

Of course. Since it's entirely possible to display complex geometric angles in a 2-dimensional strip, we can tell exactly where the spell is directed and determine that it missed the MitD by exactly 3.5 feet.

[Keltest]

What angle? It's a 2 dimensional comic. They're flying, so the only two directions the MitD can possibly be in relation to V and X are "under them and to our left" or "under them and to our right".

Considering that to our right is the wall V blasted through, the only possible location for where the MitD and O-Chul are located are to our left. And considering V's Dimensional anchor went "under them and to our left", it stands to reason that even if it didn't hit them, it still went in their direction.

Or, to sum it up in a manner more consistent with this thread,

Of course. Since it's entirely possible to display complex geometric angles in a 2-dimensional strip, we can tell exactly where the spell is directed and determine that it missed the MitD by exactly 3.5 feet.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the MITD and O-chul are along the wall that the "camera" is looking out from, possibly to the right a little bit. The door to the stairs has to be to Redcloak's left, since Tsukiko comes from that direction, but it isn't visible in the shots before that, so it has to be just off panel clockwise from the hole in the wall V made. The alternative is that Tsukiko sprinted around the edge of the room, ducked and dodged to stay out of the camera shot, and then walked up to Redcloak from his left without inspiring a smart remark about it.

[Peelee]

What angle? It's a 2 dimensional comic. They're flying, so the only two directions the MitD can possibly be in relation to V and X are "under them and to our left" or "under them and to our right".

Considering that to our right is the wall V blasted through, the only possible location for where the MitD and O-Chul are located are to our left. And considering V's Dimensional anchor went "under them and to our left", it stands to reason that even if it didn't hit them, it still went in their direction.

Or, to sum it up in a manner more consistent with this thread,

Of course. Since it's entirely possible to display complex geometric angles in a 2-dimensional strip, we can tell exactly where the spell is directed and determine that it missed the MitD by exactly 3.5 feet.

Imean, it is possible to denote 3-dimensional movement. The second panel, for instance, has runes shooting at V from behind him, despite still being confined to a 2D medium. Though I do agree with your overall point, that pinpointing where the MitD is in relation to the ray is an exercise in futility.

[martianmister]

None of spells that affected by Dimensional Anchor is really explaining the scene. He literally sends them to the place where their last surviving friends are. Only thing make sense in this context is Wish.

[littlebum2002]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the MITD and O-chul are along the wall that the "camera" is looking out from, possibly to the right a little bit. The door to the stairs has to be to Redcloak's left, since Tsukiko comes from that direction, but it isn't visible in the shots before that, so it has to be just off panel clockwise from the hole in the wall V made. The alternative is that Tsukiko sprinted around the edge of the room, ducked and dodged to stay out of the camera shot, and then walked up to Redcloak from his left without inspiring a smart remark about it.

I know what you meant. All I'm saying is that, if O-Chul and the MitD are anywhere to the left of V, that scene will look almost the same, regardless of how "deep" into the scene they are.

[Keltest]

I know what you meant. All I'm saying is that, if O-Chul and the MitD are anywhere to the left of V, that scene will look almost the same, regardless of how "deep" into the scene they are.

And I disagree. Sarcasm about geometric angles aside, I'm fairly confidant that the MITD wasn't in the line of fire from that DA.

[Razade]

It's so much easier to tell sarcasm with blue text.

It's also frowned upon by the forum mods, so there's that.

[Peelee]

It's also frowned upon by the forum mods, so there's that.

To my knowledge, telling people they need to is, but suggesting it (or doing it in general) is not. Could be wrong, not a mod.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah, It's amazing that wizards don't have a spell to stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) someone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) from teleporting

I'm aware of that argument, and find it extremely implausible. It needs the ray to miss the target, then pass through the box, and hit MITD, and for any SR to fail. Furthermore, it requires rules-lawering into saying that any teleport spell wouldn't simply fizzle as a result.

It also assumes no one commenting on MITD getting zapped by a ray spell at all.

Moreso, V casts the ray to her left. Where does O'Chul charge towards when attacking Xykon? To the left. Seems to me that, therefore, MITD and O'Chul are to the right, and thus not where the ray was shooting at.

[Peelee]

I'm aware of that argument, and find it extremely implausible. It needs the ray to miss the target, then pass through the box, and hit MITD, and for any SR to fail. Furthermore, it requires rules-lawering into saying that any teleport spell wouldn't simply fizzle as a result.

It also assumes no one commenting on MITD getting zapped by a ray spell at all.

Moreso, V casts the ray to her left. Where does O'Chul charge towards when attacking Xykon? To the left. Seems to me that, therefore, MITD and O'Chul are to the right, and thus not where the ray was shooting at.

First paragraph is on point. Second is not; why would anyone mention, "the Monster can no longer escape. I mean, he's locked in a box, so he couldn't before, but he also can't now. Also, someone not saying something about it would serve to hide the knowledge for the reveal later on, if it did hit. Third paragraph is also problematic; room is circular. If the focal point of the camera changes, the directions could easily be made to match up.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Furthermore, it requires rules-lawering into saying that any teleport spell wouldn't simply fizzle as a result.

No, it does not require rules lawyering. Nothing in the description of Dimensional Anchor suggests you suddenly lose your ability to cast spells, use spell-like abilities, etc. Just your ability to teleport.

Pelee has already addressed the rest of your post, which leaves your "I don't think a ray can hit something other than the target" as your only objection, and I already addressed it, therefore leaving you with literally just your personal dislike of the argument. Your personal opinion has as much strength as an argument as mine: none.

Grey Wolf

[Seto]

I was not aware of the Dimensional Anchor argument, and I find it really clever. I'd never have thought of that myself. However, the issue of the spell used remains: I do not know of any teleport spell that lets you arrive so precisely at a place you'd never seen before, or not even heard of. Miracle or Wish, or a personalized SLA, or a non-D&D ability, seem to be the most likely effects.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I do not know of any teleport spell that lets you arrive so precisely at a place you'd never seen before, or not even heard of.

10% chance to arrive to a "similar area" when teleport is given a false destination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm), if MitD wanted O-Chul "somewhere safe".

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

10% chance to arrive to a "similar area" when teleport is given a false destination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm), if MitD wanted O-Chul "somewhere safe".

Grey Wolf

There may not be any rules lawyering in the dimensional anchor stopping the MITD from tagging along, but this is definitely not within the intended scope of the teleport spell. "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." "somewhere safe" is not an actual location, or even an imagined location.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There may not be any rules lawyering in the dimensional anchor stopping the MITD from tagging along, but this is definitely not within the intended scope of the teleport spell. "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." "somewhere safe" is not an actual location, or even an imagined location.

So he used an imaginary location where we would expect O-Chul to be safe. There are endless ways of phrasing the escape destination that will make the "similar location" column work.

GW

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Technically, you're a couple letters short of being an Imperial Grand Admiral (though I suspect a character limit is to blame for that).
This is the Truth. foiled by forum limits.

[Goblin_Priest]

First paragraph is on point. Second is not; why would anyone mention, "the Monster can no longer escape. I mean, he's locked in a box, so he couldn't before, but he also can't now. Also, someone not saying something about it would serve to hide the knowledge for the reveal later on, if it did hit. Third paragraph is also problematic; room is circular. If the focal point of the camera changes, the directions could easily be made to match up.

Second: I would have expected the MITD itself to have reacted, at least, if not O'Chul. The ray is a very visible effect in the strip. Something along the lines of "that tickles!", perhaps, as when he was attacked. Even if the effect is not outright harmful, it still assumes him being overcome by the spell, it would seem "in character" to react somewhat. And why would this effect even be hidden? If the point was to have him hit by the DA, why aren't we shown this? It's not like it would reveal too much...

Third: If. There is little reason to believe the focal point of the camera changes. The characters appear depicted in a very consistent matter, up until they stand at the edge. It could be argued that there is maybe a switch due to Redcloak and the other looking left at some point, instead of right initially, but then again we saw him run to the right just before that scene and it's quite likely he just ran past the two. O'Chul is always seen charging left. Sure, it's possible the angles are deceiving... but I see no reason to assume they are.


No, it does not require rules lawyering. Nothing in the description of Dimensional Anchor suggests you suddenly lose your ability to cast spells, use spell-like abilities, etc. Just your ability to teleport.

Pelee has already addressed the rest of your post, which leaves your "I don't think a ray can hit something other than the target" as your only objection, and I already addressed it, therefore leaving you with literally just your personal dislike of the argument. Your personal opinion has as much strength as an argument as mine: none.

Grey Wolf

You don't lose the ability to cast spells, but you lose the ability to teleport.

The spell (and its Greater variant) reads as such:


Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

So first of all, "touched" pretty much kills it. But if that wasn't enough, the description also adds:



This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent (see below) per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is spell resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance.

The teleport spells are clearly worded to say that the teleport is focused on the caster, and that he "may bring along" others with him. If he doesn't move, nobody moves, is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the spell and DA's impacts on it.


There may not be any rules lawyering in the dimensional anchor stopping the MITD from tagging along, but this is definitely not within the intended scope of the teleport spell. "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination." "somewhere safe" is not an actual location, or even an imagined location.

And if the previous points about teleportation weren't enough, there's also that: the clear idea of the location and layout of the destination". Somewhere "safe" clearly doesn't apply, unless you want to claim the MITD has prior knowledge to where everyone else of the OotS are?

The effects seen are clearly out of the scope of teleportation spells. If you want to say it's a wish/miracle or epic-level effect, sure, that might be possible. But I think it's very clearly not a non-epic teleportation spell*. But even the Epic Teleport has V moving with everyone else.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Second: I would have expected the MITD itself to have reacted, at least, if not O'Chul. The ray is a very visible effect in the strip. Something along the lines of "that tickles!", perhaps, as when he was attacked.
The only visible effect is give you a greenish aura. MitD is in shadows, and therefore there is no reason to think he would show any effect of the ray. It certainly does not hurt or tickle or anything else.



So first of all, "touched" pretty much kills it.
I grow so bored of going through the same arguments over and over again. So I won't, not this time, not when it is already addressed in the actual MitD thread. Suffice to say you don't know the OotS rules on teleportation anywhere near as well as you seem to think you do.


is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the spell and DA's impacts on it.
Again, what you think is a "legitimate interpretation" is irrelevant. Only what Rich's is. I don't care if you as a DM would not allow someone to cast teleport while dimensionally locked, only if Rich would, because it suited his story.


And if the previous points about teleportation weren't enough, there's also that: the clear idea of the location and layout of the destination". Somewhere "safe" clearly doesn't apply, unless you want to claim the MITD has prior knowledge to where everyone else of the OotS are?
Already addressed.


The effects seen are clearly out of the scope of teleportation spells. If you want to say it's a wish/miracle or epic-level effect, sure, that might be possible. But I think it's very clearly not a non-epic teleportation spell*. But even the Epic Teleport has V moving with everyone else.
And I think it quite clearly could be a non-epic teleport effect. Isn't life easy, when we all simply argue from personal conviction?

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

So he used an imaginary location where we would expect O-Chul to be safe. There are endless ways of phrasing the escape destination that will make the "similar location" column work.

GW

Ive just had a thought Im not sure Ive seen before, though I might be misremembering this. MitDs life experience is pretty limited, right? Other than his box, where has he ever been that he would consider "safe"?

The jungle, where he was originally caught. He liked that place a lot.

Where was the rest of the Order when V and O'Chul were teleported/wished/whatevered to them? The abandoned Elven ruin. And wasnt that ruin in the process of bring overrun by a jungle? Maybe thats where MitD was originally found? Possibly suggesting he has some kind of elven connection.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ive just had a thought Im not sure Ive seen before, though I might be misremembering this. MitDs life experience is pretty limited, right? Other than his box, where has he ever been that he would consider "safe"?

It's difficult to say. We have a good grasp on his whereabouts since the circus, but we don't know how widely the circus travelled. Do we know for sure that the hunters sold him to the circus directly? Can't recall one way or the other, but even if it was a direct sale, we don't know how far the hunters travelled before selling him. Even further back, we don't know how long he was in the jungle since he lost his father, nor whether he was anywhere before that.

And of course, there is the strange hint that he may have visited the Astral plane before.

GW

[Mandor]

I've always like the idea of something like Ghostwheel, from the 2nd Chronicles of Amber (series with Merlin / Rinaldo).

It would however, simply require the hunters that first found it to be dead flat wrong about exactly what they saw, and would require it to have basically chosen to go along with them rather than truly being captured.

[Crusher]

It's difficult to say. We have a good grasp on his whereabouts since the circus, but we don't know how widely the circus travelled. Do we know for sure that the hunters sold him to the circus directly? Can't recall one way or the other, but even if it was a direct sale, we don't know how far the hunters travelled before selling him. Even further back, we don't know how long he was in the jungle since he lost his father, nor whether he was anywhere before that.

And of course, there is the strange hint that he may have visited the Astral plane before.

GW

Oh, sure. We dont comprehensively know his past. And of what we do know, there are probably relatively few places he's felt threatened or unsafe because he's kind of a juggernaut. But he knows O'Chul is probably weaker than he is. The list of places we know MitD has been and actually ENJOYED being is pretty short. He didnt feel unsafe at he circus but he didnt really like it either. Plus it traveled constantly so who knows where it would be now, even assuming its still in business?

My point is that if MitD wanted to send O'Chul somewhere safe, he might arguably pick the single place that, as far as we known, MitD really enjoyed being and felt safe himself. That'd be the jungle. And O'Chul and V were teleported to a jungle.

Sure, its a stretch, but it does address the issue that Greater Teleport is kind of a weak answer for the Escape scene unless MitD also has telepathy, mind reading or trace teleport.

[Mightymosy]

Back to the Vorlon topic, a quote from the Wikipedia article about Vorlons:
"

Sheridan: "Well, as answers go, short, to the point, utterly useless, and totally consistent with what I've come to expect from a Vorlon."
Kosh: "Good."
Sheridan: "You know, as many times as you've come and gone from the Vorlon Homeworld, you could be anyone under there. How do I know you're the same Vorlon?"
Kosh: "I have always been here."
Sheridan: "Oh yeah? You said that about me, too."
Kosh: "Yes"
(Kosh turns his back on Sheridan and begins to walk away)
Sheridan: "I really hate it when you do that."
Kosh: "Good."
"

Also, appearantly the question "Who are you?" is signature for Vorlons, although I don't really understand the background. On first glance it seems like it would seem like a pretty good reference for Rich Burlew's spiel between O'Chul and MitD/Stewie:
"What am I?"
"A good man"

Unfortunately I have never watched Babylon 5, but from what I read about them on the Internet, I find it fits better than most of the suggestions in the MitD thread, I must confess. I wouldn't say it's solved for certain, but if I had to bet money on any suggestion in the thread or the Vorlon, I'd guess Vorlon.

What about the Escape though? Is there really a good explanation for the Escape scene? Can Vorlons "teleport others", or "alter reality to their wishes"?

Also, I couldn't find anything about what Vorlons eat, and nothing about Stew apart from what was mentioned in the OP. Anyone care to comment about that?

[keybounce]

On topic: *Where* can you find Baby5 online to watch? I haven't seen it since it's TV run -- last I heard, the copyright had passed to a company that had a competing SciFi show, and they would rather keep pushing their big show rather than a competition show.

Background: Vorlons vs Shadows:
First, "Shadows" was not their name for themselves. That was the name the vorlons gave them. They were both elder races that were supposed to act as guides, guardians, to help the younger races mature.

Think Parents.

Now, these parents had different philosophies. One thought that you improved as a race by knowing what you could do, what you could not do, what your strengths were, what your limits were, and keeping to the predictable, expectable order.

The other looked at conflict as a "growth" mechanism. Yes, some die off, and the others get better, stronger, healthier -- the "law of the jungle" applied to races on a galaxy scale.

Think disagreeing parents.

So one is asking, "Who are you?". The other is asking, "What do you want?".

One wants you to understand yourself, and push where you have the ability.
The other wants to find those who will strive for the unobtainable stars, and manage to make it to the moon in 10 years, do this, that, and the other thing, and make changes for the better.

These are two opposing/conflicting points of view. So, they take turns being the "parent".

B5 basically starts when the "Shadows" are starting their turn, and a big war breaks out. The B5 station, and Sheridan in particular, become the focal point of the war.

Of course, any war will have "fallout". So after the war resolves, the series deals with the fallout.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Legally you'll only find it online on Youtube. The Michael Straczynski refuses to release it to streaming.

PMkeybounce: One thing to keep in mind is that much of what happened in season 4, was supposed to happen in season 5. It got pushed up because B5 was going to be canceled, and was only granted a last minute hail Mary buy out.

In D&D Terms.

Vorlans are Lawful. Vorlans: Who are you.

Shadows are chaotic. What do you want.

Which ties nicely into O'Chuls conversation.

[Mandor]

Damn shame that Straczynski won't release it for streaming. OTOH, I feel a lot better about having bought the DVD box sets back in the day.

It's possible Amazon might still hae some copies of that, or be able to get them via 3rd parties, etc. COMPLETELY worth shelling out the bucks for anyone who like a good sci-fi, and long convuluted plots where something from 18 episodes ago becomes important in the episode you're watching now. Many people regard LOST as the original show that did that, but I give the nod to B5.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Damn shame that Straczynski won't release it for streaming. OTOH, I feel a lot better about having bought the DVD box sets back in the day.

It's possible Amazon might still hae some copies of that, or be able to get them via 3rd parties, etc. COMPLETELY worth shelling out the bucks for anyone who like a good sci-fi, and long convuluted plots where something from 18 episodes ago becomes important in the episode you're watching now. Many people regard LOST as the original show that did that, but I give the nod to B5.

There as been talk of a remake, and quite honestly the disks (and movies, one should start with the TNT movie prequel)

I can't believe it is more than 20 years old. It holds up pretty well, shame about Jerry Doyle. One of the interesting tid bits I picked up over the years was that Mollari was not supposed to have any accent. Peter Jurasik just read it that way & refused any interference from directors.

[Throknor]

Legally you'll only find it online on Youtube. The Michael Straczynski refuses to release it to streaming.

Did he say that somewhere? I always presumed it was the mess the internet broadcast rights would be between WB, TNT, SciFi and any entities laying claim from the Prime Ten network it was originally released on. As I recall they had to fight to get the tapes and then DVDs out. Given that WB, TNT & SciFi probably have different streaming plans for their current shows I can easily see them not getting together to work things out for a show twenty years old.

In any case with the struggle he had to get it and keep it on air in the first place I doubt he has the only say for its release at this point.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Did he say that somewhere? I always presumed it was the mess the internet broadcast rights would be between WB, TNT, SciFi and any entities laying claim from the Prime Ten network it was originally released on. As I recall they had to fight to get the tapes and then DVDs out. Given that WB, TNT & SciFi probably have different streaming plans for their current shows I can easily see them not getting together to work things out for a show twenty years old.

In any case with the struggle he had to get it and keep it on air in the first place I doubt he has the only say for its release at this point.

I remember reading that, but was unable to find it now that I searched. Apparently Warner Brothers owns the TV rights, he owns the movie rights.