Issues with Passive Perception/All Passive Skills

[PeteNutButter]

I saw the recent thread about passive perception and using investingation as active. I didn't want to derail that thread but I have some issues with passive skills in general.

So passive perception is an aim to simplify constant rolling and/or prevent PCs from even knowing they failed to perceive something. Does it succeed in these things?

Well it definitely reduces rolling, but at the cost of variability. My issue with it as DM is if you regularly use it you'll find that it feels stagnant and unexciting.
-The same PCs will always be the ones to see things.
-A foe with even a moderate stealth can be practically impossible to detect even with a high PP if they roll high.
-Feats items and abilities that give an increase to PP potentially break the need for perception in general. By mid levels many parties have a character pushing 20 or higher on PP, and see everything.
-Ultimately it becomes a feast or famine thing where you either always see things or you never do.

What do you guys think? How do you incorporate this in your game? What successes and failures do have?

[Stan]

I think of passive abilities as usually something to roll against so that there is some variability but not as much as with opposed rolls. It's also handy for basic stuff that used to be covered by taking 10 (it is essentially taking 10).

[ad_hoc]

Yeah, I find it best to use them to have one side fixed and the other side roll.

So if there is a trap, have one roll for the trap vs the passive score of the party. This is much better than having everyone in the party roll as someone will get a high roll and then their skills/abilities are meaningless.

I also like using them in contests. Say a PC is attempting to grapple a monster. I use the monster's passive score instead of rolling for them. This way if the PC rolls high then they will win. It's not much fun to roll a 20 and still lose.

[Sabeta]

The skill isn't required to be constantly passive. I've mentioned before that rolling dice is honestly a waste of time 99% of the time. If there's a rogue who had Expertise in Thieves tools and Sleight of Hand then there's no reason he shouldn't be able to pick the lock on a door. Im not going to make him roll for that. The only exception to this would be for time sensitive things and the rogue needs to get it done ASAP.

Since I basically play all skills as passive to a degree, Perception is no different. If Sneaky Ninjas are nearby and your perception is high enough then you notice bushes are moving and something doesn't seem quite right. If you also have really high Investigation then you also Investigate why the bushes are moving and you realize it's Ninjas, roll Initiative. If you don't beat the DCs for either possible, then someone might get a feeling that "something is wrong" and have the opportunity to roll. If they fail it's surprise time. If they succeed, roll Initiative.

I dunno, I've always felt that fussing too much about rolling which stat when just gets in the way of role-playing. I also don't let my players refer to skills by name. They tell me what they want to do and I decide if a roll is necessary for the action.

[RSP]

I don't see a problem and like that PP moves things along pretty smoothly.

As previously stated, if you have 4 or five in a party and everyone's rolling d20s all the time, more likely than not, someone will roll high enough on the die to notice whatever is hidden, barring +10 and higher Stealth bonuses.

And with +10 and higher bonuses, PP isn't a gimme anyway.

It speeds up play by allowing the DM to roll once rather than that plus every player and. Impacting numbers, which, if done, alerts the players that something is there regardless of rolls.

[Rysto]

So passive perception is an aim to simplify constant rolling and/or prevent PCs from even knowing they failed to perceive something. Does it succeed in these things?

There's another problem that it aims to solve: if a party of five 5 PCs all roll perception, there's a 55% chance that at least one of them will roll an unmodified 18 or better. Passive checks eliminate this problem.

[Vogonjeltz]

I saw the recent thread about passive perception and using investingation as active. I didn't want to derail that thread but I have some issues with passive skills in general.

So passive perception is an aim to simplify constant rolling and/or prevent PCs from even knowing they failed to perceive something. Does it succeed in these things?

Well it definitely reduces rolling, but at the cost of variability. My issue with it as DM is if you regularly use it you'll find that it feels stagnant and unexciting.
-The same PCs will always be the ones to see things.
-A foe with even a moderate stealth can be practically impossible to detect even with a high PP if they roll high.
-Feats items and abilities that give an increase to PP potentially break the need for perception in general. By mid levels many parties have a character pushing 20 or higher on PP, and see everything.
-Ultimately it becomes a feast or famine thing where you either always see things or you never do.

What do you guys think? How do you incorporate this in your game? What successes and failures do have?

Passive scores are what's used automatically, active checks are for when the player initiates a search.

So if the player actually chooses to search somewhere (which would constitute an action) it would be a roll. If you just want to see if they notice a hidden foe without doing a search, it's the passive score comparison to the stealth check of the hidden foe.

All that being said, a character could have a passive perception of 21 just by having proficiency and +5 wisdom modifier. If they have expertise that goes up to 27, if they have advantage it pops up to 32.

And yes, it's possible for an enemy with a very high stealth check to beat that...but that just makes having a very high stealth check useful, otherwise there would be no point at all to the check in the first place.

[BW022]

...
What do you guys think? How do you incorporate this in your game? What successes and failures do have?

I typically don't use them other than for utterly mundane things to solely determine which PC likely saw it.

There are lots of ways to use rolls in passive checks without giving the show away.

1. The players are simply good enough not to meta-game low rolls (i.e. they don't suddenly alter their behaviour after you ask for a check and they don't see/hear something.)

2. Ask for enough of them, specifically for mundane things or for things which don't matter. Players learn not to sweat/react to being asked for rolls.

3. Have them roll ahead of time. Ask for 5 or so rolls per session and then use them in a random order.

4. Use a random DC. Take the DC (in the book) and roll DC-10+d20. If the DC is 15, roll d20+5. Players don't automatically see things or don't automatically miss things.

5. Roll for the players. Take their modifier and you roll the d20 secretly.

However... rolling (and most of these techniques) takes time. I typically use passive values for mundane things. I use #1 most of the time unless the players really start adjusting behavior based on their rolls. In which case I'll use 3.

[ad_hoc]

Passive scores are what's used automatically, active checks are for when the player initiates a search.

So if the player actually chooses to search somewhere (which would constitute an action) it would be a roll. If you just want to see if they notice a hidden foe without doing a search, it's the passive score comparison to the stealth check of the hidden foe.


That isn't how it works.

The Passive here is not about what the character is doing. It is referring to the player not rolling.

[djreynolds]

This guy has a good idea

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502105-The-Investigation-Perception-paradox-dilemma-solved!

[dropbear8mybaby]

This guy has a good idea

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502105-The-Investigation-Perception-paradox-dilemma-solved!

Seriously?


I saw the recent thread about passive perception and using investingation as active.

I swear nobody reads OP's before posting to them.

[PeteNutButter]

I also like using them in contests. Say a PC is attempting to grapple a monster. I use the monster's passive score instead of rolling for them. This way if the PC rolls high then they will win. It's not much fun to roll a 20 and still lose.

I really like this idea, it is kind of the opposite of my problem. PP takes the feeling of agency away from the players. Since the game's story is about the players, doesn't it feel more logical to have them be the ones typically rolling, and use passive scores on mooks? I should also note from a balance perspective you may run into a lot of situations where success is automatic. My grappler had +14 to athletics at level 8 in CoS... that would mean he would automatically succeed in grappling anything with 20 or less str.


There's another problem that it aims to solve: if a party of five 5 PCs all roll perception, there's a 55% chance that at least one of them will roll an unmodified 18 or better. Passive checks eliminate this problem.

That is a very good point, with bounded accuracy this is huge. In previous editions skills would be + somewhere in the teens relatively early on and it basically was a contest between the foe and the one guy(ranger or rogue usually) that could possibly meet that high score. Now most characters are capable of seeing most foes if they roll high enough.

I think I'll start using it more...


Seriously?
I swear nobody reads OP's before posting to them.

haha

[Sabeta]

Your players are still allowed to roll Perception.

So then, let's say that the BBEG has used a series of expertly built traps to protect his fungeon. They're all extremely well hidden and nobody had a Passive Perception high to spot a single one. Well say that the Rogue is closest, but shy by a point or two.

Now, because asking for an active check would clue them in that there are probably traps in this room specifically, instead the players were warned ahead of time that the BBEG is an expert in Trap Theory. So the players come in expecting traps everywhere, and just lure then into a false sense of security the Rogue discovers a trip wire that was coated in tar to be less noticeable.

If my players are smart, they'll keep checking for traps actively. If they're dumb they trust that the Rogue is good enough for all of them and get hut by the next one; however I'm not unfair. This trap exists only to teach the players that the Rogue alone won't be good enough. Now they're actively perceptioning everything just to be safe.

Then they walk into what the BBEG calls the Murder Room.

Every Exit has a bottomless pit in front of it. The pit looks like normal flooring via Minor Illusion. No level of perception check can tell the difference because the BBEG is just that good.

Also, there's a highly powerful Rune of Fireball carved into the ceiling which is triggered if anyone steps too close to the center of the room. This one can be noticed, but only by a very high perception check from a creature with dark vision who tells me they look up.

So the Wizard's Arcana check is passively high enough that he senses magic near each exit, and on the roof. A successful Investigation check this point reveals the illusions, and if he has dark vision he can discover the rune too.

Oh, but at this point the Rogue rolls perception and notices that there's a checkerboard pattern of spike traps in the room as well. And the Cleric realizes that there's an invisible ghost here as well.

Call me crazy, but I find 5Es skill system to make way more sense than previous editions. Passive Perception included.

[DanyBallon]

Your players are still allowed to roll Perception.

So then, let's say that the BBEG has used a series of expertly built traps to protect his fungeon. They're all extremely well hidden and nobody had a Passive Perception high to spot a single one. Well say that the Rogue is closest, but shy by a point or two.

Now, because asking for an active check would clue them in that there are probably traps in this room specifically, instead the players were warned ahead of time that the BBEG is an expert in Trap Theory. So the players come in expecting traps everywhere, and just lure then into a false sense of security the Rogue discovers a trip wire that was coated in tar to be less noticeable.

If my players are smart, they'll keep checking for traps actively. If they're dumb they trust that the Rogue is good enough for all of them and get hut by the next one; however I'm not unfair. This trap exists only to teach the players that the Rogue alone won't be good enough. Now they're actively perceptioning everything just to be safe.

Then they walk into what the BBEG calls the Murder Room.

Every Exit has a bottomless pit in front of it. The pit looks like normal flooring via Minor Illusion. No level of perception check can tell the difference because the BBEG is just that good.

Also, there's a highly powerful Rune of Fireball carved into the ceiling which is triggered if anyone steps too close to the center of the room. This one can be noticed, but only by a very high perception check from a creature with dark vision who tells me they look up.

So the Wizard's Arcana check is passively high enough that he senses magic near each exit, and on the roof. A successful Investigation check this point reveals the illusions, and if he has dark vision he can discover the rune too.

Oh, but at this point the Rogue rolls perception and notices that there's a checkerboard pattern of spike traps in the room as well. And the Cleric realizes that there's an invisible ghost here as well.

Call me crazy, but I find 5Es skill system to make way more sense than previous editions. Passive Perception included.

How would you describe doing a perception check? Actively searching for traps sounds more like Investigation to me. Would focusing on your surrounding for a short period of time be a good description? I always though that Perception was more like your subconscient letting you notice stuff while doing something else, an intuition that something is off. Someone with a greater Perception score, is able to notice thing that would go unnoticed by a normal person.

[Sabeta]

Perception let's you know the environment, not why it is that way. Active Perception is the same as passive, but with a roll attached. Ie, I may ask for an active Perception checks to the following questions:

"Do I notice anything unusual?"
Or
"What do I see"

Perception would tell you that some of the tiles on the floor are uneven, or that a portion of the wall has air coming through it. Investigate uses your deductive reasoning skills to find out why those things are like that. Sometimes it's so obvious you don't even need a roll, passive Intelligence covers it (ie: a trip wire is obviously a trap or alarm of some sort), but the uneven tiles being a pressure switch might not be so easy.

Basically, Perception and Investigation go hand-in-hand, but shouldn't be the same thing, nor do they overlap in my opinion.

Then again, I also play with Passive Intelligence in my campaigns, because knowing what you know shouldn't be luck in my opinion.

[beargryllz]

I use passives as a way to decide how an encounter happens sometimes

Are they ambushed or not? This is straightforward, although the only real reason to use it over rolling is for metagame purposes. Taking average is a very old mechanic in D&D and static difficulty modifiers have always been a thing. If you don't meet some minimum level of competence, this thing happens without rolling.

Did they notice the hidden elf moondoor or are they going to wander in circles and bicker until their enemies catch up with them?

[djreynolds]

I use perception as a cue to then actively investigate.

I hear a noise or perceive something and then I go and look.

[Vogonjeltz]

That isn't how it works.

The Passive here is not about what the character is doing. It is referring to the player not rolling.

Although that is certainly one feature of a passive check, it's not the sole feature as demonstrated by the game rules.

A Check (roll) is used whenever a character tries to do something. (i.e. Search for a hidden thing)
A Score (no roll) is used when the character isn't actively trying to do a thing. (i.e. Notice a hidden thing).

By its very nature it when an activity is passive it falls under the Passive score.